I really hate complain news posts like this. Because personally I dont think debate is encourged just because how massive it is and just because it is a news post.

I mean its hard to predict SC2. Its really hard how its going to turn out. I mean the only reason I think micro was prevalent at first is because we didnt know how good macro was. I mean what do you tell a new player to learn first? Do you tell him to learn how to reaver harass or how to place his darkswarms perfectly? Of course not, you tell him to learn macro first and then focus on the micro.

Now that we know about macro, I think there is a lot of focus on it, just because we know how good it is, and just how much more weight it holds than micro. I dont think you can argue that. I think all of you can agree, that if you just have more stuff, all the fancy micro in the world wont save your opponent.

I mean I cant say that spells and splash havent been minimalized, I cant. I just I am saying, sure we've all played BW for 12 years, we never had something like this, its hard to say this is exactly how its going to turn out and its awful, especially in a BETA, if not within the first 5 years of the game.

IronFenix

Canada27 Posts

July 11 2010 03:12 GMT

#25

I never really thought about it but I completely agree with you. SC2 is missing the epicness of sc1

Kimaker

United States2131 Posts

July 11 2010 03:21 GMT

#26

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how SC2 is as exciting TO WATCH, as BW. Gameplay wise, it's loads of fun to do, but as a spectator sport...it just doesn't do it as well as BW.

Well written, with something to harken to for those of us preemtively bemoaning the loss of BW, thx Saracen.

Slardar

Canada7593 Posts

July 11 2010 03:27 GMT

#27

I couldn't agree more with this article, perfectly sound logical arguments, albeit we haven't given SC2 the benefit of the doubt or a chance to "develop" regardless of how truly lacking the game play is. Thoughts on posting this article in the SC2 Bliz forums? If granted permission I'd love to, or anyone to post it for that matter.

Puremiss

United States232 Posts

July 11 2010 03:29 GMT

#28

Well written!

But i definitely think that things are not as grim as implied in the article. No game can be specifically designed to encompass the beautiful interactions and gameplay of Starcraft BW as we know them now. It's up to the players themselves to create that. In Starcraft we had Boxer, and the amazing 10+ year run of the game definitely didn't hurt the evolution of the game. All that said; I for one have high hopes that Starcraft 2 will have the same sort of evolutionary process as it's predecessor, and grow to match the splendors of Broodwar. (however no game could ever be quite like SCBW)

It's not quite fair to compare a game that is very much in it's prime to the 10 year old RTS titan, name the greatest RTS game of all time.

sluggaslamoo

Australia4494 Posts

July 11 2010 03:33 GMT

#29

Christ, everyone who disagrees saying that BW had 10 years please read the article again.

That said, great article!

FiWiFaKi

Canada9859 Posts

July 11 2010 03:35 GMT

#30

Totally true, what do you think if Brood War got a massive graphics overhaul by some mods created byu some dedicated hardcore StarCraft fans. Great graphics attract alot of players, and once the players play it abit theyll get hooked once they see so much depth in the game.

Ofcourse there will be people that still say it's too hard, or my units don't go where I want them to go, but it would make it so appealing to many people, and ofcourse to do something this big would take months or even years. Just a thought though.

And a very well written article, I didn't even think of some of that stuff why i prefer Brood War... One thing I would like to add though is that there was there was a "Wow factor" in SC1 and it seems thats it's almost non existent in SC2.

Redmark

Canada2129 Posts

July 11 2010 03:44 GMT

#31

I have literally never played a single game of Brood War or Starcraft 2, but as a spectator I cannot see your point.
It's impossible to micro against Force Field? Really? Bit of a self-fulfilling prediction there, don't you think?
Imagine if Boxer realized that Lurkers were invincible under Dark Swarm and just said 'fuck it, no way out of this. I'm playing Counterstrike'.

Seems like people are starting to blatantly spread propaganda now. Forever is a long time, you know? But I'm sure you can see the future.
I've only ever seen these levels of bitterness in the fighting-game community. I just don't understand. Why do you guys hate on Warcraft 3 so much, then? That game's all about micro.
I seriously cannot get myself to finish reading this. "There will never be..." "There will never be..."; there certainly will never be anything for you. Of course Ryu's fireball spam is unbeatable. Of course anyone who gets the rocket launcher instantly wins. Of course, of course, of course. It's the mantra of the loser.

It's very easy to imitate, isn't it? Everything's obvious in hindsight. Those progamers you mentioned? They spent a lot of fucking hard work getting to where they were.

neurolite

Canada26 Posts

July 11 2010 03:44 GMT

#32

I think a lot of you are judging SC2 in a way that maybe it shouldn't be judged. Blizz had to come out with the sequel to one of the most beloved games of all time, but they couldn't release the same game. You can't honestly say you wouldn't just get bored and go back to SC BW if it was the same game as SC2, and new SC players would be wondering where the community was when they bought the game, and who needs a divide in the community.

While I appreciate your points about BW, I think you need to give 2 more time to grow as a game, it's still a baby, and still has 2 expansions coming. Vanilla SC was fine, but it didn't really come into it's own until BW (I was pretty young at the time so forgive me if my perception is wrong), give the new game a chance, see what changes come with the next 2 games, because right now everyone knows it's an incomplete game, even blizz, but they need something to sell us in the next 2 games.

Edit: for spelling and readability

anonymousfree

2 Posts

July 11 2010 03:46 GMT

#33

--- Nuked ---

barthos

United States30 Posts

July 11 2010 03:52 GMT

#34

This was brilliant. From a spectator PoV, there's also less times in SC2 where I'm holding my breath watching.

Niten

United States598 Posts

July 11 2010 03:54 GMT

#35

I think the article is spot on. It reminds me of something Nony said during one of the state of the game MLG podcasts, he said something to the same effect. I really want to see the dynamics Saracen wonderfully brought out in SC2. I know this is now an old and possibly trite card to play, but I have two of them: less importantly, it's beta; more importantly, there are two expansions left. Blizz has at least two years to find that delicate, precarious, and oh-so-exciting dynamic in their re-envisioned game.

I'm not saying the article is jumping the gun at all. Actually, I think it's great to stimulate discussion on the topic, because after all, if the community only plays, who is there to call attention to what needs changing? I believe the community can understand Blizz's game with far greater sensitivity than Blizz can itself due to closeness and distance -- when you spend so long working on one project (as I'm finishing my MA thesis I feel this firsthand), there is a sense of pride and guardianship: imagine you're insulting some dude's daughter to his face and that's the idea I'm getting at. They're close; we're passionate but removed, if I understand the relationships right.

Anyway, right now I think TL is doing an incredible job with these articles to bring attention to issues that need attention. It's still early and Blizz has time to make corrections, and with carefully crafted clear constructive community-created commentary like this, we'll have the best game of the fucking universe.

Crunchums

United States11144 Posts

July 11 2010 03:55 GMT

#36

thanks for putting into words what i knew in my heart of hearts <3

Antisocialmunky

United States5912 Posts

July 11 2010 03:56 GMT

#37

Good write up however I've always felt that with the higher damage output, SCII becomes a game of terrible terrible mobility(Protoss Warp In, Zerg Creep Everything, and Medivacs are pretty much required for infantry) rather than terrible terrible damage as was the case of BW.

Hautamaki

Canada1311 Posts

July 11 2010 04:02 GMT

#38

Let's not despair yet. I'm one of the ultra old-school guys that played SC before BW and BW is what introduced quite a lot of the micro and depth of SC. For example before M&Ms and Lurkers TvZ battles were extremely straight forward. And DTs are largely what led to terrans learning how to use spider mines properly in PvT. There is still a huge potential for SC2 to catch up to BW with 2 expansions on the way, and in the meantime SC2 is still more than fun enough to play while we wait for SC2 games to reach the art of BW.

Lord_of_Chaos

Sweden372 Posts

July 11 2010 04:03 GMT

#39

I would say that, for example, force fields are extremely interesting. It's just on the current maps they play out wrong. There are big differences between current sc2 maps and the professional bw maps. I think that on a map with a wider center, allowing for more army movement and flanking, force fields will be a very interesting spell that will increase the dynamics and interactions.

Overall I fear that sc2 is currently being balanced on inferiour maps....

Gescom

Canada3435 Posts

July 11 2010 04:06 GMT

#40

Great thread -- but I still feel like these sentiments are all based on nostalgia and the fact that SC2 is largely incomplete. In 2-3 years time when Flash and Jaedong are playing against eachother in Heart of the Swarm I really don't think anyone will be missing BW.