EPTThe game at its current state, is not at the awe-inspiring level SC:BW was and is today. But I also agree was the argument that the game has the potential to improve and reach that point, hopefully in a new and different way. Time will only tell if players can elevate SC2 to an exciting level that people all over the world want to play and watch.
[SC2B] Under the Microscope - Page 12
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theFBaum
United States12 Posts
The game at its current state, is not at the awe-inspiring level SC:BW was and is today. But I also agree was the argument that the game has the potential to improve and reach that point, hopefully in a new and different way. Time will only tell if players can elevate SC2 to an exciting level that people all over the world want to play and watch. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On July 13 2010 04:42 Schamus wrote: And yet all the games he referenced happened how many years after SCBW was released? SC2 hasn't even been released yet. And though you may say that it already has limited itself, think of how many game changing things happened between SC1 and SCBW. And even then! The patches change the game all the time. I say, give it chance. The micro/macro is not what kills this game just yet, the only thing killing it is the noose around the Custom Communities neck in making new maps/mods. But the skills carry across from BW into SC2. No one is jumping into unknown territory here and everyone is deliberately looking for any micro tricks, but due to the engine and how the game is played now it might be that tricks that are found are not necessarily even useful. A lot of the BW tricks were useful thanks to the 12 unit limit and pathfinding difficulty which is no longer a problem. This is just speculation but i think once the safest possible macro builds are found out SC2 is going to be a lot less interesting to spectate, it simply won't be viable to play a micro game or anything unusual because you'll be overwhelmed. Imo its not as possible anymore to hold onto high ground (as easily at least) or exploit small chokes etc. to play a different style of game | ||
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Elprede
74 Posts
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revy
United States1524 Posts
BW is a beautiful and good game, SC2 is darn good too in it's own right. | ||
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pencilcase
United States330 Posts
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red_hq
Canada450 Posts
On July 11 2010 11:55 Traveler wrote: I completely agree. Much of the new abilities seem to offer no counter to when they are used. Having ones army cut in half by forcefields and then killed leaves one with such and utter sense of helplessness. It seems that Blizzard developed some beautiful looking abilities that don't really add to the necessity of skilled management, but rather make it easier to cast 5 storms at once, or emp a bunch of units in less than a second. Perhaps there could be ways to fix some of these things, like perhaps giving forcefields life points, or making it so that spells have a delay timer on them if they are cast grouped... Agreed. Also note EMP, uncounterable as toss. Yes splash needs a buff. | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
On July 11 2010 15:02 Ideas wrote: I like both these posts :D. exactly right guys  I like both of these posts as well as the OP's. You guys do it right! =)  | ||
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mitsoz
Greece11 Posts
The sc2 dev team had no idea about these things.. Isn't it ironic? The company never really understood its game. They started making sc2 with the goal of creating units "as exciting as possible" and they failed miserably, because they didn't understand what makes a unit exciting in the terms of starcraft gameplay. Sc1 units are cooler than sc2's will ever be. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1595 Posts
The SC2 team saw too much 3D warcraft. There is a reason why SC1 a poor graphic game is still so popular. It is the same reason why Golden Eye 007 was the most badass shooter. A well developed game will always be more entertaining to those who understand it than a pretty game. Also spells and splash damage aren't the only things wrong with this game. Some units are unusable and might become usable in time, but they seem poor at the moment. Especially mothership + reaper. Comparatively you might say firebats or queens were unusable in SC1, but firebats could hold off massive forces if too many lings were coming your way and I still believe the queen could have been implemented more. Likewise | ||
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bcelmo
Romania4 Posts
It`s not 98. Today IT`S NOT ACCEPTABLE to introduce into the game what most core and casual gamers perceive as bugs - Ex. when a core or casual player sends 3 goons up a ramp he expects them to go there and align the same way they were aligned when he sent them. This means if Blizz wants to sell they have to streamline all this little mechanics so that the player will get the feedback from the game that HE EXPECTS or that gamer will ragequit. Ragequiting once will make him more reluctant to enter the game the second time. Ragequiting second time will make him more reluctant to enter the game the third time and so on. This does not help the game, does not help Blizzard and definitely does not help the community. Having a community made up only of the elite is the worse that could happen to a competitive game. Just because maybe less than 10% of the players will have enough time or dedication to invest in becoming the elite. Thing is that Starcraft 2 is a game that is rewarding on all levels. Easier mechanics make it more interesting for the guys PLAYING IT in any league just because it will be easier for them to get WINS and after every win they will aspire to one day kick the shit out of Boxer`s ass. Because they don`t feel he is that far from them. However that is only in theory, Boxer is leagues further from them but those leagues are navigable with enough dedication in a shorter time than before for the average joe. And the more average joe`s want to be at the top the more dynamic and more interesting the competive scene will be. You won`t just cheer for the pro`s, you`ll aspire to be one of them. And where there`s demand, there`s an offer. More leagues will be created, more money will be thrown at them, more countries will have proleagues, the "world cups" will get more coverage, legends will be created and smashed by the day and if a bonjwa ever rises his position will be constantly is danger. The best example of what i said the last 2 paragraph is dota and it`s spin-offs like HoN or LoL. Take a look at those games, realize they are very easy to play but they leave enough room for wow moments, see how may people play it and how many money is thrown at them. This is SC2 - there are countless possibilities for wow micro, bo refinement, the game is faster and more adaptable. It`s true that it`s possible that the game will reach it`s skill cap faster but that doesn`t mean that fully skill balanced games are not interesting or less competive. En contrair, they will be even more watchable and breathtaking because you will never know who will win in advance. And there`s nobody stoping Blizz in releasing a new expansion as soon as skill cap has been reached to introduce even further mechanics and make it interesting again if enough people find it stale or there is just a demand for it. If more people play the game, the game is interesting Just my 2 cents. If you wanna flame, flame on. | ||
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
It also seems to me people really forget what the game was like in SC (before BW), because its been so long since that version has been played at all. The thing is about SC before BW (1.07 version is BW all versions before this) is that well quite simply, it was like SC2 is now. Micro was there in bursts but it never really came into play, not only were people still learning the macro and mechanics of the game but also the tweaking of the units was such that the so called 'hard-counters' were very prevalent. BW completely changed the face of the multi-player game, and as a result we must take SC2 the same as original SC - a starting point from which to build on. There is two more expansions/games to come for SC2, I'm sure by the time we get to Legacy of the Void the fine balance between micro and macro we've seen in BW and have all come to know and love will return - hopefully even better than it is in BW. Edit: 'Wow micro' moments still exist in SC2 even if we haven't found them yet. One I know that will for sure eventually show us a wow moment is Banshees. They out-range upgraded Hydras by 1 range, and have a moving shot - put em in the right hands versus Hydras and we'll see some amazing micro. | ||
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thehitman
1105 Posts
Speaking of which though, SC2 is a great game, but if we go gameplay for gameplay, SC1 will always win over SC2, whether its splash, spells, micro, bug abusing or macro it wins. But we must accept they are different games and the next best thing is SC2. And its actually for the better, because who would like SC1 the 12 years old game in 3D, I'd imagine now very much. Even the most nostalgic and loyal SC1 core players would like some innovation, some new units, some new spells, etc... | ||
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Wippen
Sweden15 Posts
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Juaks
United States384 Posts
On July 11 2010 13:02 Hautamaki wrote: Let's not despair yet. I'm one of the ultra old-school guys that played SC before BW and BW is what introduced quite a lot of the micro and depth of SC. For example before M&Ms and Lurkers TvZ battles were extremely straight forward. And DTs are largely what led to terrans learning how to use spider mines properly in PvT. There is still a huge potential for SC2 to catch up to BW with 2 expansions on the way, and in the meantime SC2 is still more than fun enough to play while we wait for SC2 games to reach the art of BW. Brilliantly said. Its exactly what I have allways thought and allways try to express to everyone with a negative mindset. | ||
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Pwncore
Canada15 Posts
On July 13 2010 17:37 mitsoz wrote: You know what the problem is.. The sc2 dev team had no idea about these things.. Isn't it ironic? The company never really understood its game. They started making sc2 with the goal of creating units "as exciting as possible" and they failed miserably, because they didn't understand what makes a unit exciting in the terms of starcraft gameplay. Sc1 units are cooler than sc2's will ever be. Its a sad day when we realize that game makers are not game players. I wonder how many SC2 designers were above D- on ICC, or even knew what it was? I wonder how many of them watched pro games or talked to the coaches in Korea to see what really made the game. I wonder if they did it for the money. | ||
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EnderSC
62 Posts
You can't say micro dynamics are deteriorated, they are just different. It's hard to admit that you need to improve and learn a game that you feel have played for so long. But SC2 is not BW dynamic wise, so you write a conservative article about how it was better before. It is just different. So imho, the new spells and stuff don't shut down dynamics, they create new ones that we havn't seen yet. For example, if you are aware about force fields you don't try to snipe a few units and then pull back to your siege line. Because you know you'll get caught. (The dynamic would be to send a few cloaked ghosts before?) If you see a bunch of High templars, you spread your units better, you burrow your roaches, you flank with lings, you use HT immobility or slowness. Those are dynamics too, that are yet to be discovered, improved and rehearsed. The pathing, the spell cast, the auto mining, the MBS, etc, allows you to use you APM in micromanaging your units and we are undoubtfully going to see impressive dynamics in the future. They won't be the same as in BW, and i'm sorry for you. About the key timing windows, you'll eventually find other ones, it is just the beta.... | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
The problem is that right now and in the near future, a lot of people think sc2 just isn't as exciting or possess the wow factor that broodwar does. Yet there's already a (Blizzard backed) movement to quickly phase out broodwar and replace it with sc2. Why replace something that has worked, that for 10 years has provided all of us with a quality game that we never tired of playing or watching? Sure, it's still in beta. Sure, sc2 might be the game of all games in a couple years. It might even surpass broodwar in gameplay when the expansions come out. Or it might flop. The point is these arguments aren't valid because they're not at all falsifiable. I played a lot of SC2 when I first got hold of it. It's new, it's shiny, the interface is easier. But is the experience as gripping, is the gameplay give me the same tingle as when I play broodwar? Absoutely not. If people enjoy SC2 based on its own merits, then they can go right ahead. If I happen to like SC2 more than broodwar after it's developed for a while, I'll join in. But as long as the life of StarCraft continues to get sucked out by a new game that doesn't deliver simply because it's new and more polished, I'm gonna complain. Sorry guys. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On July 14 2010 20:30 EnderSC wrote: I don't agree. You are only nostalgic about BW and your skill at that good old game. You can't say micro dynamics are deteriorated, they are just different. It's hard to admit that you need to improve and learn a game that you feel have played for so long. But SC2 is not BW dynamic wise, so you write a conservative article about how it was better before. It is just different. So imho, the new spells and stuff don't shut down dynamics, they create new ones that we havn't seen yet. For example, if you are aware about force fields you don't try to snipe a few units and then pull back to your siege line. Because you know you'll get caught. (The dynamic would be to send a few cloaked ghosts before?) If you see a bunch of High templars, you spread your units better, you burrow your roaches, you flank with lings, you use HT immobility or slowness. Those are dynamics too, that are yet to be discovered, improved and rehearsed. The pathing, the spell cast, the auto mining, the MBS, etc, allows you to use you APM in micromanaging your units and we are undoubtfully going to see impressive dynamics in the future. They won't be the same as in BW, and i'm sorry for you. About the key timing windows, you'll eventually find other ones, it is just the beta.... There have been a lot of similar replies. And I agree: SC2 and Brood War are different games. The priority of the skill set required to be "good" is different. The way the units interact or different. But to all the people listing examples showing "brilliant micro possibilities" or "new dynamics" in SC2, I have a question: have you really watched/played SC1? Because I have done plenty of both. And it's just not the same; none of your examples even come close. Maybe you all are right. Maybe it's nostalgia holding me back. But I pointed to clear issues in SC2 that take away the interactivity of battles. I mean, I've won games by dropping banelings into mineral lines and laying baneling mine traps. I've experimented with cute shit here and there. But when it comes to big battle micro, I want to feel like I need to do something besides "put my roaches in front of my hydras." And really, I don't think "nostalgia" attacks have much merit because I'd like to think I'm playing SC2 with an open mind. Hell, I'm hardly even watching BW anymore, much less playing it. I've nearly made a full conversion to SC2. I'm happy with my skill level, even though I know there are plenty of ways I can improve. But after hundreds and hundreds of games, you start seeing things that just aren't there (or, if they are, are diluted). Interactivity and dynamics are among those things. I'm saying this just to let you know I didn't decide to start playing SC2, go "oop, not BW 2.0," and give up on it. Rather, SC2 is a game I love. And I really want it to improve and be the best it can be. Right now, I think there are still some areas where SC2 can be better. To everyone saying "oh, give it time. We've still got two expansions," that's great. So SC2 may or may not be the simply amazing game it could be. But why take that chance? What's wrong in pointing out areas in which the game can be improved? What's wrong with trying to nudge the game along so that it can reach its full potential? Would you rather stand back and watch the game you love maybe succeed and maybe fail, or would you rather do something about it? I mean, maybe you have some other game like WoW or HoN or LoL or D3 to turn to. But, as for me, I have nothing else besides Starcraft. Again, I'm sorry if the original article came off sounding nostalgic. Or if I somehow offended anyone with the all "nostalgia." If I could rewrite it without that, I would. But I really want everyone to try to read this objectively, and not just write it off as "just another BW-is-better" rant. Because there are a lot of points that I made that you can't just dismiss as "oh, it's just a different game" or "oh, it'll fix itself eventually." | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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DJhozy
Singapore34 Posts
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