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On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote:
Will this reach the Korean courts?
What does KeSPA plan to argue? That the league they run isn't a dramatic public performance, the progamers don't get paid, the entry is free and that they are a nonprofit organization etc? Also are they gonna argue that the software they used magically bypassed the EULA and TOS agreement when the game wasn't installed or they never read/understood any of it? Court would be a huge mistake and wouldn't accomplish more than a settlement nobody would know the terms of to save face.
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uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
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On May 31 2010 16:42 QibingZero wrote:
I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here.
I mean, KeSPA is being damn realistic. What, do you think you've lost potential sales from all the free advertisement they've given you? Do you think you've lost reputation based on the fact they've crafted a game you created into the only sustainable eSport so far? Are you really upset that your brand is now practically a household name in Korea?
Congratulations. You've made an organization like KeSPA sound this reasonable to even some of your biggest fans.
All this, and now your hubris continues to cloud all judgment. Do you really think bashing the very people who made you as popular as you've been in Korea is a good thing? Do you really think you can fight the powers that be in Korea, alienate tons of fans, and somehow have SC2 surpass BW? I mean, come on. You sign with an inferior host. Your new game has almost zero innovation and actually goes backward in time with it's lack of important features. You're fighting an uphill battle while SC2 is still in beta and showing it.
To be honest, KeSPA shouldn't even offer to pay you any royalties, because it's more than obvious what you're doing. You further the precedent on designers getting paid royalties despite not actually having to do anything, and your profits continue to increase. Now you can make the turnover on non-MMO games meet whatever insane demands for profit you and Activision have these days. It says a lot about your character to see that you're using the same logic the music industry does as far as profits go. Congratulations, you've officially joined the ranks of companies that have made IP rights seem like a terrible idea in practice.
Signed on everything in this post.
And yeah its funny how so many of us are defending KeSPA now (I mean its KeSPA :S) but Blizzard is obviously the greater evil in this case.
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1) Even though we, the twelve progame teams, have stated that we would pay royalties for the use of the games to respect Blizzard as the original creator, Blizzard continues to claim that their intellectual property rights are not being respected. We want to know if Blizzard believes that their rights would only be respected only if the following conditions are met
- Ownership of everything authored by the players, progame teams, and the broadcast stations
- Royalties regarding game use combined with a portion of profits from all tournaments and broadcasts and a royalty for sublicensing
- To check and decide on everything regarding things created by broadcasts, sponsorships, and all other marketing activities and the right to audit
If not, we want a clear statement regarding Blizzard's position on the matter. Furthermore, we believe that this is just a ploy to increase Blizzard's profits, therefore we wish to know how this relates to advancing eSports in Korea.
I really feel this is the most practical part of the matter. (I made an Oh shi- face at the end of that quote). It would be very hard for Blizzard to argue this matter if this question cannot be answered well enough. Even though KESPA is sneaky at times, I feel they have a more reasonable request than Blizzard at the moment.
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On May 31 2010 16:46 AyJay wrote:
uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
Because Gom now have the broadcasting rights. Read it all man...
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5003 Posts
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On May 31 2010 16:42 QibingZero wrote:
I too would love to hear answers to these very same questions KeSPA has, Blizzard. It's all too convenient that you don't even approach the Korean BW scene for all these years, and now you care so much right as you're planning to make/release SC2. The burden of proof is on you here.
I mean, KeSPA is being damn realistic. What, do you think you've lost potential sales from all the free advertisement they've given you? Do you think you've lost reputation based on the fact they've crafted a game you created into the only sustainable eSport so far? Are you really upset that your brand is now practically a household name in Korea?
Congratulations. You've made an organization like KeSPA sound this reasonable to even some of your biggest fans.
All this, and now your hubris continues to cloud all judgment. Do you really think bashing the very people who made you as popular as you've been in Korea is a good thing? Do you really think you can fight the powers that be in Korea, alienate tons of fans, and somehow have SC2 surpass BW? I mean, come on. You sign with an inferior host. Your new game has almost zero innovation and actually goes backward in time with it's lack of important features. You're fighting an uphill battle while SC2 is still in beta and showing it.
To be honest, KeSPA shouldn't even offer to pay you any royalties, because it's more than obvious what you're doing. You further the precedent on designers getting paid royalties despite not actually having to do anything, and your profits continue to increase. Now you can make the turnover on non-MMO games meet whatever insane demands for profit you and Activision have these days. It says a lot about your character to see that you're using the same logic the music industry does as far as profits go. Congratulations, you've officially joined the ranks of companies that have made IP rights seem like a terrible idea in practice.
Great post, sums it up perfectly.
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i dislike both companies. blizzard is just being a business and doing something any other company with a successful ip would do. Kespa might feel a bit like they are caught with their pants down right now.. but they could have addressed the issue years ago. Its really kespa's own fault for its business practises, blizzard is playing by the book.
but as a gamer, id just like blizzard to stfu and make the game good rather then counting chickens($$$$$$$$) before they hatch.
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On May 31 2010 16:46 AyJay wrote:
uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
Mr. Han Jung Won, Blizzard Korea's representative announced during this press conference that Blizzard would negotiate with KeSPA but not the Executive Office of KeSPA.
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On May 31 2010 12:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think both sides are completely full of shit. Blizz wants all the money they can get out of Korea, and KeSPA wants to keep all of that money in their hands. KeSPA is used to having complete and utter control of the Starcraft scene, and there is no way they are going to give that up without a fight. The only problem is that they are trying to bluff their way to victory against an opponent who has every single card.
gg KeSPA, either figure out a way to keep Blizz happy enough that they let you continue to do what you do with minimal interruption (Translation: pay a shit ton), or wait and hope that blizz sponsored esports fails so you can step back in on the cheap.
The one card KeSPA has is the progaming teams. What if they all "protest" what is GOM going to broadcast?
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On May 31 2010 16:46 AyJay wrote:
uhm huh?
If Kespa has finally agreed with requirements why blizzard don't want to negotiate?
they already sold the rights to GOM. There is nothing left to negotiate with Kespa. Kespa must now negotiate with GOM, and GOM has expressed willingness to do that.
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On May 31 2010 16:46 Baarn wrote:What does KeSPA plan to argue? That the league they run isn't a dramatic public performance, the progamers don't get paid, the entry is free and that they are a nonprofit organization etc? Also are they gonna argue that the software they used magically bypassed the EULA and TOS agreement when the game wasn't installed or they never read/understood any of it? Court would be a huge mistake and wouldn't accomplish more than a settlement nobody would know the terms of to save face.
I think Kespa is thinking about two things mostly:
1.) tacit consent
2.) creation of a "new" product
Regarding tacit consent, I think they pointed this out with Blizzard being made aware of some issues in 2006 and not doing anything thereby giving Kespa a kind of silent agreement to continue with their operations. I am not sure when Blizzard actually tried to establish negotiations with Kespa, so this point might be moot.
With regards to creation of a new product, I am thinking about law here and in the back of my head the following analogy comes up: If you sell me strawberries under the clause of 'reservation of ownership' until the goods are paid for, then the fruits are not mine until I paid for them.
However, if I decide to make some jam or marmelade with the fruits, I create something "new" enough that you cannot claim the jam/marmelade to be yours, if I fail to pay for the fruits. I guess Kespa thinks a bit about this when they say the created e-sports. They used SC1 as an ingredient to create something "new", professional electronic sports in South Korea.
Obviously this analogy is not 100% accurate but I hope you catch my drift.
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On May 31 2010 17:10 Schnake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:46 Baarn wrote:On May 31 2010 12:50 Empyrean wrote:
Will this reach the Korean courts? What does KeSPA plan to argue? That the league they run isn't a dramatic public performance, the progamers don't get paid, the entry is free and that they are a nonprofit organization etc? Also are they gonna argue that the software they used magically bypassed the EULA and TOS agreement when the game wasn't installed or they never read/understood any of it? Court would be a huge mistake and wouldn't accomplish more than a settlement nobody would know the terms of to save face. I think Kespa is thinking about two things mostly: 1.) tacit consent 2.) creation of a "new" product Regarding tacit consent, I think they pointed this out with Blizzard being made aware of some issues in 2006 and not doing anything thereby giving Kespa a kind of silent agreement to continue with their operations. I am not sure when Blizzard actually tried to establish negotiations with Kespa, so this point might be moot. With regards to creation of a new product, I am thinking about law here and in the back of my head the following analogy comes up: If you sell me strawberries under the clause of 'reservation of ownership' until the goods are paid for, then the fruits are not mine until I paid for them. However, if I decide to make some jam or marmelade with the fruits, I create something "new" enough that you cannot claim the jam/marmelade to be yours, if I fail to pay for the fruits. I guess Kespa thinks a bit about this when they say the created e-sports. They used SC1 as an ingredient to create something "new", professional electronic sports in South Korea. Obviously this analogy is not 100% accurate but I hope you catch my drift.
I think KeSPA is desperate.
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What amazes me the most is how so many people here can side with Blizz on this. Apart from the new comers that know shit about anything else other than SC2, how can a true SCBW fan side with Blizz. Do you actually think that Blizz cares about SCBW anymore. All they want to achieve with this move is to kill SCBW in Korea. "Protect our rights" my ass. Why weren't you protecting your rights three years ago, or ten yeas ago. Now the new Activison/Blizzard and their respective CEO Robert A. Kotick are publishing a new game. The biggest threat to it (apart from it being bad) is the game that REAL Blizzard made, 12 yeas ago. This level of hypocrisy is not something the old Blizz would show. Why don't they just say it out loud, "We want to kill the SCBW in Koera but don't want to make it look that way because of the fans". If they were truly doing this for the eSports and the fans they would let the SCBW scene continue living and possibly outlive SC2 (as happened with their previous strategy game). But obviously that wouldn't earn them any money.
No matter how bad Kespa is (and please don't bring the stupid ppp incident for the 1000th time, KeSPA referees have nothing to do with this discussion) they are the ones that depend on the SCBW living on, not Blizz/Activision.
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nimoraca,
i think ur on to something there. i can not imagine why any company would give the IP rights of the match video or replay back to the game creator. this is no longer just an issue of royalty but absurd business practice. given the nature of IP laws, giving in to blizz's demands would be litigation hell in the future.
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I don't know what is written in the license of the game but basically some things in that license might be out of the law. Some simple things:
- All the property of the programs created with a programming language own the author of the program as long as he bought the software.(Took if for free in cases it is free). When we move to the game, I think it's obvious that all the right of the replays created by the gamers own the gamers itself.
- The game is just a tool to create things. If I buy a camera, I have the rights to broadcast whatever I film with the camera, and make money with that content. If I buy the clothes, I have the right broadcast myself owning those clothes. I can broadcast myself writing programs in some programming language, and I can broadcast myself playing "Monopoly" at home.
I don't see why computer game should be anything else. It should be forbidden by the law for the company creating a game, to have any broadcasting rights over the playing game.
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How can anyone side with Blizzard on this? They are going to kill the SC:BW scence...
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On May 31 2010 17:20 nimoraca wrote:
What amazes me the most is how so many people here can side with Blizz on this. Apart from the new comers that know shit about anything else other than SC2, how can a true SCBW fan side with Blizz. Do you actually think that Blizz cares about SCBW anymore. All they want to achieve with this move is to kill SCBW in Korea. "Protect our rights" my ass. Why weren't you protecting your rights three years ago, or ten yeas ago. Now the new Activison/Blizzard and their respective CEO Robert A. Kotick are publishing a new game. The biggest threat to it (apart from it being bad) is the game that REAL Blizzard made, 12 yeas ago. This level of hypocrisy is not something the old Blizz would show. Why don't they just say it out loud, "We want to kill the SCBW in Koera but don't want to make it look that way because of the fans". If they were truly doing this for the eSports and the fans they would let the SCBW scene continue living and possibly outlive SC2 (as happened with their previous strategy game). But obviously that wouldn't earn them any money.
No matter how bad Kespa is (and please don't bring the stupid ppp incident for the 1000th time, KeSPA referees have nothing to do with this discussion) they are the ones that depend on the SCBW living on, not Blizz/Activision.
THIS
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I don't know who to believe. Blizzard says KeSPA won't negotiate, KeSPA says they were willing to pay royalties.
I just don't really know what to believe here. I think BOTH companies are lying/spinning their words to make it sound like they are trying to do what's right for us, when I don't think it's even either of their jobs at this point.
Blizzard seems to be trying too hard to make eSports grow globally, probably to their monetary benefit. KeSPA, unfortunately, I feel is too reclusive to allow eSports to grow anywhere outside of South Korea. The only thing I think GomTV will do right here is allow foreign broadcasting. That is a damn good idea. But why try to tear up KeSPA along with it? I think both of these companies are just a hindrance more than anything. Although KeSPA less so, because at least the Starcraft community can get their broadcasts around the world. Blizzard is just making Bnet 2.0 very unfriendly to the community that helped show that eSports is legitimate.
Although, maybe an agreement will be made before they lose the rights to the game come August.
I remember the "top 8" division thing. Where did that go? Can't Blizzard show us, rather than tell us, what their plans are? Where is the clan groups feature? Why haven't you elaborated on it? Are you going to update your Community & News page on Bnet 2.0, or is that just there for no reason? What about eSports itself? Are you planning for broadcasting, how do you intend to organize tournaments? Do you want to replicate teams of 1v1 players, will there be incentives for winning, are you planning on working out some deals with CPL, CAL, ESL, or MLG?
You're practically making global tournaments useless with your region locking. And I know it's just for money, because the logic behind it is invalid. Lag? Hah! ICCup begs to differ. You say one thing, but you don't actually back it up with your actions. And a team traveling to a LAN is pointless, because you took that out too.
Actions speak louder than words, Blizzard. I don't have any malice for you giving exclusive rights to KeSPA. Frankly, I don't know how that's going to turn out. I doubt most people here do. But it looks bleak. Maybe we are just impatient.
But Blizzard, you won't be eSports' savior. You don't have the capability. You only need to make the game itself fun and make sure it works. Everyone else should handle the scene.
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On May 31 2010 17:45 arbiter_md wrote:
I don't know what is written in the license of the game but basically some things in that license might be out of the law. Some simple things:
- All the property of the programs created with a programming language own the author of the program as long as he bought the software.(Took if for free in cases it is free). When we move to the game, I think it's obvious that all the right of the replays created by the gamers own the gamers itself.
- The game is just a tool to create things. If I buy a camera, I have the rights to broadcast whatever I film with the camera, and make money with that content. If I buy the clothes, I have the right broadcast myself owning those clothes. I can broadcast myself writing programs in some programming language, and I can broadcast myself playing "Monopoly" at home.
I don't see why computer game should be anything else. It should be forbidden by the law for the company creating a game, to have any broadcasting rights over the playing game.
it depends on the EULA. if the EULA demands you to give up title to the game recordings and you click AGREE, then blizz owns it.
the reason you dont see this with other software is because there was no economic reason to add this clause. it was usually in the best interest of the software vendor to help their customer to create things of their own.
the case with blizz is now different. blizz still want you to create things, but they want to capitalize on your work. they are betting that, you, out of love of their game, are willing to donate free labor into their cause.
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EPT
