EPT[PL] Bottom of the Barrel - Page 3
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mptj
United States485 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On November 07 2009 12:29 Japakazol wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12150_Flash_vs_JangBi/vod Case closed, sir. Flash didn't obsolete shit. There is a reason that arbiters are used more often now, and that reason is that arbiters kick ass up and down the block without requiring a period of vulnerability as you tech switch, not because flash made carriers useless. You're insane and have no reading comprehension. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On November 07 2009 12:29 Japakazol wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12150_Flash_vs_JangBi/vod Case closed, sir. Flash didn't obsolete shit. There is a reason that arbiters are used more often now, and that reason is that arbiters kick ass up and down the block without requiring a period of vulnerability as you tech switch, not because flash made carriers useless. Congrats you found 1 game where Protoss used carriers and won Let's also ignore that this was Jangbi during his PvT beast period; ie. S-class vs S-class match Case closed indeed | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2602 Posts
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Japakazol
United States102 Posts
On November 07 2009 12:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: You're insane and have no reading comprehension. Hmm...You claim that flash made carriers obsolete, I show you a recent game where flash loses to carriers. Maybe I'm completely insane but that sounds pretty reasonable to me. Enlighten my feeble mind as to the true hidden meaning of your words. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I realize there's the occasional game where Carriers make a showing, and even win! Fuck, Horang2 did it the other day. That doesn't stop the unit from being tossed to the wayside in standard play, especially the ENORMOUS drop off in use they saw after the Flash build. And I mean absolutely enormous. It'd be like if Terran stopped using Science vessels in lategame TvZ (You're a khan fan, you should realize this more than anyone. Stork abused the fuck out of Carriers for a solid 2 years before Flash made his build, heck, he destroyed FLASH several times before the Flash build. They even gave him a golden carrier pin for it). Also, your argument of "Here's one match where it won in the past year." is silly. FBH used Battlecruisers to kill Jaedong, didn't make Battlecruisers good or any less obsolete in the general scope of the match up. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote: It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything." Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking). Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really. | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around: Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking). Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really. apm =/= good macro/micro eg by.hero | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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wifebeater
178 Posts
brb | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
On November 07 2009 18:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: EAPM does but semantics aren't the point. Flash is not flawless mechanically, and is quite honestly below his S-Class Z and P partners when it comes to mechanics (Bisu and Jaedong respectively. He's probably ahead of Stork). I disagree, if you watch Flash play he's so on top of everything around the map, his macro and micro are just so clean. You can't have the type of production and army management without being just as good mechanically as the other top S-Class guys. Just watching him in TvZ is ridiculous, his armies are more alert (rarely every losing stray units), his defense versus mutas is by far the best (something that is very mechanically oriented) and his macro is as close to perfect as you can get. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
As Hot_Bid said, Flash really knows how to adapt, defend with minimal losses, macro/micro, etc. Definitely not just a straight up "macro" player. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On November 07 2009 20:22 Hot_Bid wrote: I disagree, if you watch Flash play he's so on top of everything around the map, his macro and micro are just so clean. You can't have the type of production and army management without being just as good mechanically as the other top S-Class guys. Just watching him in TvZ is ridiculous, his armies are more alert (rarely every losing stray units), his defense versus mutas is by far the best (something that is very mechanically oriented) and his macro is as close to perfect as you can get. That doesn't stop Jaedong and Bisu from doing the exact same, but moreso. I love Flash to pieces, but I think it's a stretch to consider his micro to be equivalent to Jaedong's. He may be more even with Bisu in raw mechanics than I give him credit for, but what you described as watching him play so cleanly and precisely is exactly what you see in Bisu's view, as well, only Bisu operates faster, typically. Citing examples is easy enough -- Jaedong double muta micro, Bisu's crazy harassment multitask combo, etc etc, but it's more a matter of comparison than just picking things out that you like about the player and saying that makes him flawless, mechanically speaking. Though, Flash's TvZ control has definitely taken a step up, recently. He's always had the best MnM, but it's somehow even better nowadays. Maybe he's caught up. I just remember, not even a few months ago, everyone understood that Flash wasn't a mechanically gifted monster like Jaedong, just, well, very well optimized. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
 Action looks like a REAL good player. Watching the mini map a lot in the game, and he was constantly streaming units out. Looked unstoppable. | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
On November 07 2009 20:22 Hot_Bid wrote: I disagree, if you watch Flash play he's so on top of everything around the map, his macro and micro are just so clean. You can't have the type of production and army management without being just as good mechanically as the other top S-Class guys. Just watching him in TvZ is ridiculous, his armies are more alert (rarely every losing stray units), his defense versus mutas is by far the best (something that is very mechanically oriented) and his macro is as close to perfect as you can get. I gotta agree with HB, did you see the way Flash trade 1 marine for 1 muta vs by.hero on HBR? His apm is 300+ but his control, EAPM and reaction time is way better than pros with 500 apm. That being said, the way Stork crushes everyone with 250apm is seriously mindblowing | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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frozenclaw
Canada410 Posts
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