• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:45
CEST 05:45
KST 12:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO12 Preview: Maru, Trigger, Rogue, NightMare12Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, sOs, Reynor, Solar15[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Unyielding3Official Ladder Map Pool Update (April 28, 2025)17[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Rejuvenation8
Community News
Maru & Rogue GSL RO12 interviews: "I think the pressure really got to [trigger]"0Code S Season 1 - Maru & Rogue advance to RO80Code S Season 1 - Cure & Reynor advance to RO84$1,250 WardiTV May [May 6th-May 18th]5Clem wins PiG Sty Festival #67
StarCraft 2
General
Maru & Rogue GSL RO12 interviews: "I think the pressure really got to [trigger]" Code S Season 1 - Maru & Rogue advance to RO8 Clem wins PiG Sty Festival #6 How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Code S Season 1 - Cure & Reynor advance to RO8
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group B [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group A $1,250 WardiTV May [May 6th-May 18th] SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed Mutation # 470 Certain Demise Mutation # 469 Frostbite
Brood War
General
(UMS) Artosis vs Ogre Zerg [The Legend Continues] BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games Preserving Battlereports.com
Tourneys
[BSL20] RO32 Group F - Saturday 20:00 CET [BSL20] RO32 Group E - Sunday 20:00 CET [ASL19] Ro8 Day 4 [CSLPRO] $1000 Spring is Here!
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Nintendo Switch Thread Grand Theft Auto VI Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Elon Musk's lies, propaganda, etc. Ask and answer stupid questions here!
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey Surprisingly good films/Hidden Gems
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
BLinD-RawR 50K Post Watch Party The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Why 5v5 Games Keep Us Hooked…
TrAiDoS
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
BW PvZ Balance hypothetic…
Vasoline73
Test Entry for subject
xumakis
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 13613 users

[PL] Bottom of the Barrel - Page 2

Forum Index > News
78 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 06 2009 19:29 GMT
#21
On November 06 2009 22:36 jtype wrote:
Regarding Ruby building 500 starports - I can't believe I didn't see the relevance to him being on ACE, lol. I'm suprised I even remember my name sometimes..


More importantly, when was the last time an ACE member got to do an in-game ceremony against a well known proleague regular? Every part of it is great.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Ota Solgryn
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark2011 Posts
November 06 2009 19:52 GMT
#22
Absolutely insane writeup. Love these articles.

And why oh why didnt I see the interview where Oz coach said JD would not be sent for ace. Would be top 50 with flash instead of JD.

ihasaKAROT: "Wish people would stop wasting their lives on finding flaws in others"
MrHickoryHam54
Profile Joined January 2009
United States208 Posts
November 06 2009 20:34 GMT
#23
with all due respect to coach Cho of Oz, HE NEEDS TO GO JUMP OFF A CLIFF!!!

when the hell will he realize that no one on his team has ANY chance of beating ppl like flash or bisu EXCEPT JD!!!!

no matter what idiot sc fans try to say about lomo or killer, THEY ARE BAD!!!

last yr, they put jd for like, every match, and look where it got them: SILVER MEDAL

hey, when something is working, PLEASE CONSIDER STICKING TO IT!!!
2009-10 Proleague MVP: Doctor.K_PsP
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 20:48:08
November 06 2009 20:47 GMT
#24
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
November 06 2009 21:13 GMT
#25
nice. however, should it be "peace of mind" instead of "piece of mind"? (lol all those puns were lulzy)
Writer
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
November 06 2009 21:24 GMT
#26
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
Show nested quote +
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.

Flash became known for his really strong TvP. Though hs TvT is certainly strongest his TvZ / TvP is equally strong imo. (We dont know cus he neither played Jaedong / Effort / Calm or Bisu / Stork lately)
In the woods, there lurks..
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 06 2009 21:56 GMT
#27
While all of Flash's matchups are terrifying right now, I think its fair to refer to his TvP as his best in this kind of context. It is not only the matchup he became known for, he singlehandedly made the TvP statistic on Medusa last season look way more balanced than it "actually" was (going a combined 11-1 on both, during a time when no terran was winning TvPs).

His TvP remains masterful even during times of protoss dominance and during times when he is playing 'below his best' overall.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
seppolevne
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada1681 Posts
November 06 2009 22:49 GMT
#28
Really great writeup, matches to look forward to is really nice. Interview with the PUNisher was funny as hell, thanks ^^
J- Pirate Udyr WW T- Pirate Riven Galio M- Galio Annie S- Sona Lux -- Always farm, never carry.
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
November 06 2009 22:55 GMT
#29
On November 07 2009 05:34 MrHickoryHam54 wrote:
with all due respect to coach Cho of Oz, HE NEEDS TO GO JUMP OFF A CLIFF!!!

when the hell will he realize that no one on his team has ANY chance of beating ppl like flash or bisu EXCEPT JD!!!!

no matter what idiot sc fans try to say about lomo or killer, THEY ARE BAD!!!

last yr, they put jd for like, every match, and look where it got them: SILVER MEDAL

hey, when something is working, PLEASE CONSIDER STICKING TO IT!!!


I get the feeling that it's a part of an unspoken deal betweeen Oz Cho and Jaedong's parents in order to keep Jaedong playing. Jaedong's parents legally makes the contract decisions and were really unhappy about Jaedong's stress.
Wake up Mr. B!
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
November 06 2009 23:40 GMT
#30
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
Show nested quote +
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.


He'll always be known for his revolution of TvP, statistics aside, FlaSh is to TvP what Bisu is to PvZ.
RIP Aaliyah
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
November 07 2009 01:34 GMT
#31
Killer is gonna get killed.
Brood War loyalist
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
November 07 2009 02:21 GMT
#32
On November 07 2009 08:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.


He'll always be known for his revolution of TvP, statistics aside, FlaSh is to TvP what Bisu is to PvZ.

Is it to the same degree, though? I really don't know, if you could show me, that'd be great.
Jaedong
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 02:33:55
November 07 2009 02:33 GMT
#33
On November 07 2009 11:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 08:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.


He'll always be known for his revolution of TvP, statistics aside, FlaSh is to TvP what Bisu is to PvZ.

Is it to the same degree, though? I really don't know, if you could show me, that'd be great.



It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything."
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 02:50:27
November 07 2009 02:49 GMT
#34
Flash almost completely obsoleted a unit that had been used consistently -- for years -- and was thought to be the CAUSE of the PvT imbalance in the lategame. You're absolutely insane if you don't think Flash's build is comparable to Bisu's build in match up changing terms. There's a reason 90% of the time you only see Arbiters instead of carriers lategame, now.
Remember Violet.
SwEEt[TearS]
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1575 Posts
November 07 2009 02:56 GMT
#35
great read ^^

I'm hoping for a gg between savior and pusan
#1 arb fan -- Raelcun is Nuclear backwards. Rekrul is Lurker backwards. Grobyc is Cyborg backwards. Eniram is Marine backwards.
cunninglinguists
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States925 Posts
November 07 2009 02:56 GMT
#36
oh my god the punisher's interview is absolutely amazing
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
November 07 2009 03:00 GMT
#37
This never disappoints
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 07 2009 03:07 GMT
#38
On November 07 2009 00:53 MrHickoryHam54 wrote:
but u cant rely on stork to carry the team. hes not jaedong....

Yeah. You can't rely on Stork to be Jaedong when Jaedong's "not Jaedong" either.
Moderator
Triple7
Profile Joined April 2009
United States656 Posts
November 07 2009 03:19 GMT
#39
Nooo! SKT vs KT is Monday morning for me
지지이이이이이이이이이이이
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
November 07 2009 03:29 GMT
#40
On November 07 2009 11:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash almost completely obsoleted a unit that had been used consistently -- for years -- and was thought to be the CAUSE of the PvT imbalance in the lategame. You're absolutely insane if you don't think Flash's build is comparable to Bisu's build in match up changing terms. There's a reason 90% of the time you only see Arbiters instead of carriers lategame, now.


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12150_Flash_vs_JangBi/vod

Case closed, sir. Flash didn't obsolete shit. There is a reason that arbiters are used more often now, and that reason is that arbiters kick ass up and down the block without requiring a period of vulnerability as you tech switch, not because flash made carriers useless.
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Circuito Brasileiro de…
19:00
A Decisão - Playoffs D1
davetesta65
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 267
NeuroSwarm 141
StarCraft: Brood War
sSak 286
NaDa 91
Leta 68
Nal_rA 38
Sharp 17
Dota 2
monkeys_forever832
LuMiX0
League of Legends
JimRising 747
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor207
Other Games
summit1g9924
WinterStarcraft378
ViBE220
Ketroc11
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1076
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv119
Other Games
BasetradeTV47
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 38
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 36
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo691
Upcoming Events
Online Event
15m
MaxPax vs herO
SHIN vs Cure
Clem vs MaxPax
ShoWTimE vs herO
ShoWTimE vs Clem
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6h 15m
WardiTV Invitational
7h 15m
AllThingsProtoss
7h 15m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
10h 15m
Chat StarLeague
12h 15m
BSL Season 20
14h 15m
MadiNho vs dxtr13
Gypsy vs Dark
Circuito Brasileiro de…
15h 15m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 6h
BeSt vs Light
Wardi Open
1d 7h
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Snow vs Soulkey
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
GSL Code S
3 days
ByuN vs Rogue
herO vs Cure
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Classic vs Reynor
GuMiho vs Maru
The PondCast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Nation Wars Season 2
PiG Sty Festival 6.0
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSLPRO Spring 2025
2025 GSL S1
Heroes 10 EU
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

NPSL S3
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.