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On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around: Show nested quote +On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything." Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking). Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really.
Bisu is usually under 300 average apm in televised games. Said so himself in a battle.net attack episode. I wouldn't think bisu regularly breaks 350 apm. Thus your post is pretty much bullshit.
Since bisu's average apm usually only barely surpasses flash's and since you evidently equate apm with mechanics (which is stupid by the way), your logic becomes faulty.
Flash looks slow when you watch him FPView. But he has an incredible flow when cycling through actions that you can't see in many other players. He always knows what needs to be done and where his attention needs to be diverted to at every single point of the game.
Flash has a very methodical and consistent approach to mechanics, he does what needs to be done. Whereas a player like bisu looks faster because his mechanics are very reactional, switching between screens blazingly fast, even though it might not be the optimal use of his apm. Same with jaedong...
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good god how is Lux vs Bisu not recommended
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Katowice25012 Posts
Fomos mentioned it, seemed redundant to bring it up again 
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Fucking sick write up, kudos sir.
That was one good read.
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samsung is 1-5 because the coach keeps making retarded choices
i know jangbi has digressed, but you ALWAYS have to send him out at least once especially because khan isn't that great this year...stork and great should be sent out too obviously
FBH sucks, he just can't win after his lasik surgery...but thne again he couldnt win be4 that either. sucks, he used to be pretty decent.
i hate miracle by the way. thats just giving up a game there.
please send out players that actually have a chance to win
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it wouldve been nice if khan signed jaedong, btw...
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This was awesome.
I cannot wait for the Leta vs Kal game. That one really stood out to me as going to be an awesome game.
I also LOL'd at plugging in players names to complete a sentence. That one gets me every time <3
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On November 07 2009 23:42 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around: On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything." Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking). Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really. Bisu is usually under 300 average apm in televised games. Said so himself in a battle.net attack episode. I wouldn't think bisu regularly breaks 350 apm. Thus your post is pretty much bullshit. Since bisu's average apm usually only barely surpasses flash's and since you evidently equate apm with mechanics (which is stupid by the way), your logic becomes faulty.
I don't equate JUST apm with mechanics, but if APM somehow isn't part of mechanics than I don't know what is. Anyhow, the OSL apm counter has placed Bisu above 400 before. He may not typically do it, but he has and can.
THE POINT BEING, Flash is amazing, but it's daft to say he's a great player because he has
flawless mechanics, when there's atleast one person (Jaedong) who has better, and arguably more (Other terrans, Bisu, et al). Flash's greatest strengths in comparison to his S-class brethren are in his builds and game sense, plain and simple.
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On November 08 2009 06:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2009 23:42 LaLuSh wrote:On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around: On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything." Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking). Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really. Bisu is usually under 300 average apm in televised games. Said so himself in a battle.net attack episode. I wouldn't think bisu regularly breaks 350 apm. Thus your post is pretty much bullshit. Since bisu's average apm usually only barely surpasses flash's and since you evidently equate apm with mechanics (which is stupid by the way), your logic becomes faulty. I don't equate JUST apm with mechanics, but if APM somehow isn't part of mechanics than I don't know what is. Anyhow, the OSL apm counter has placed Bisu above 400 before. He may not typically do it, but he has and can. THE POINT BEING, Flash is amazing, but it's daft to say he's a great player because he has flawless mechanics, when there's atleast one person (Jaedong) who has better, and arguably more (Other terrans, Bisu, et al). Flash's greatest strengths in comparison to his S-class brethren are in his builds and game sense, plain and simple.
All right man, try to understand the point instead of microanalyzing my word choice. Clearly I didn't mean "flawless" in the absolute literal sense that he never makes a mistake, but simply that he is a mechanical titan on the level of jd and bisu. Sure, you can argue jaedong has better mechanics, but that's pretty meaningless because jaedong has better mechanics than everyone. (incidentally I don't know where you're getting your apm figures; someone above me beat me to the punch by quoting bisu in his bnet attack episode saying his apm is more like 250-300. Flash is higher than that)
Really though, I think our disagreement is semantic only and stems mainly from the fact that I'm picking words casually and don't know if they refer to exactly what I mean. In Flash vs stork on blue storm, his minerals never get above 2-300 unless he's saving for a command center. That's astounding to me and I call it flawless mechanics. You're calling it "optimized." Shrug. What are we really arguing here?
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Our disagreement stemmed from you saying that the Flash Build was a "Minor" Change in the TvP metagame.
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United States2186 Posts
Flash is much slower than Bisu or Jaedong both apm wise and multitasking wise. Bisu is only 300-350, never dropping below 300, from his IEF/WWI reps which is definitely higher than Flash, stop spreading bogus info. But apm is not really that important here, I mean Bisu is comparable at the very least to Jaedong in multitasking when he's probably around 50-75 apm less overall.
Frankly he's not really much, if any more efficient given how poor his reaction times are and his complete inability to fight multiple battles at once. The Bisu/Flash & Jaedong/Flash series are very telling to who is better at multitasking and how great that margin is.
Both his micro (particularly against mutas) and macro (very solidly generally but does slip not irregularly) are excellent, but his multitasking is extremely poor for someone at his level of play and definitely his weakest area. He loses units carelessly all the time simply because he's not watching them and he's lost quite a number of games simply due to this fact (a la vs Iris on HBR when there's a 2 front battle and he doesn't micro the critical area). He is extremely conservative with harassment and always tries to limit crucial fights to 1 area at a time, clear indicators that he feels much more comfortable winning the game outside of mechanics (where his real strengths are). His play is smooth yes, but that's because he doesn't strive for simultaneous engagements that players like Bisu, Jaedong, or Nada really thrive in.
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On November 08 2009 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Our disagreement stemmed from you saying that the Flash Build was a "Minor" Change in the TvP metagame.
Relative to the seismic shift Bisu caused in PvZ, I'd say that's pretty accurate.
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The Flash build was the biggest metagame shift in TvP since Oov, it's easily comparable. I mean, the Protoss lategame just ISN'T even close to similar to what it was 2 years ago.
For pure comparison, Bisu's build (forge FE into fast Sair/dt) was used to counter 3hatch minimalist zerg which was a big problem for protoss, but Zergs still play similarly economy hungry to that on a fair basis because the Sair/DT is not the end all be all killer of fast economy Zerg builds.
What Flash did WAS a counter to carriers, plain and simple, though it wasn't just his build but his anti-interceptor playstyle that made the Flash build nearly insurmountable vs Carriers.
I don't think Sair/DT was as metagame changing as Fast Armories just because you see carriers less often than you see savior style zergs (It's easier to stop Sair/DT with that style than it is to stop Fast Armories with Carriers). Putting that aside, Bisu himself, who isn't a one trick PvZ pony, had more of an impact on PvZ than Flash had on TvP, in general. Bisu changed the match up and suddenly there were protosses winning all over the place, whether or not they used the Bisu Build -- standardizing Forge FE being the biggest thing taken from that. There wasn't another Terran era after Flash figured out how to stomp his race's hard match up.
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On November 08 2009 16:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The Flash build was the biggest metagame shift in TvP since Oov, it's easily comparable. I mean, the Protoss lategame just ISN'T even close to similar to what it was 2 years ago.
Isn't it possible that the decline in usage of carriers late game in the last 2 years is as much due to the fact that 2 years ago you had maps which are fantastic for carriers (katrina, blue storm) and now you have maps that are merely okay for carriers (destination, HBR) as it is to a change in builds? Also, do all modern terrans even copy the flash fast armory on a regular basis?
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Considering Carriers were primary use for several years and that Protoss started using Arbiters on Katrina to try to beat Flash in the first place (ask Bisu how well that went), I'd say it's more than just coincidence that the anti carrier build was made and, suddenly, everyone stops using carriers for the most part. I bet it'd be pretty easy to find old maps that, in retrospect, would be better for Arbiters than carriers, but no one thought of that back then because Carriers ruled.
Also, the Flash build is still used pretty often? Specifically by Flash, mind you, but fast upgrades also make a tank army with a few Goliaths a monster, as well, when backed by sound economy. That's one of the reasons it's so good.
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Excellent stuff! sKyHigh didn't perform well for my Fantasy Team this week, and I wish I had more WeMade players, but my team is not doing horrible.
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i have  Stork and Khan, I knew my fanboyism wud be the death of me, well Stork's doing alright...
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Flash's TvP revolution was anything but minor. The double armory build is incredibly important. Equally so to the Bisu build. It did the same thing after all. He used it to demolish a player who was thought invincible in that match-up (Stork's PvT/sAviOr's ZvP) and turned his races greatest weakness into a strength. Then he ushered in a wave of terran dominance against protoss.
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Good Read Thanks Ruby Fighting!
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EPT
