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[PL] Bottom of the Barrel

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[PL] Bottom of the Barrel

Text byHeyoka
November 6th, 2009 12:08 GMT
[image loading]

This Shinhan Bank building, found in Seoul, is just one of many Korean landmarks TL's Proleague coverage will be taking you through this season.

While this hasn't been a week to remember, it will be one that some do not soon forget. We didn't see play from fan favorites SKT Telecom, KT Rolster, or STX SouL (Hite also didn't play). Even among the teams that did play, there were few eye-catching matches in the lineups and not many exciting happenings. Nonetheless, a few things of note happened in the midst of the otherwise somewhat mediocre action.

Firstly, WeMade continued to blow through the competition, beating out CJ and Oz (two teams who were considerably higher calibur than them last season) each 3-1, for a solid 2-0 on the week. Midas even retained his role as helper on the team, beating Killer and going to 2-1 for the season. They are now but a mere 2 games away from overtaking KT's lead.
Special Features
[image loading]
Game of The Week

Statisfaction

FPL Update

Fresh from Korea

On the opposite end, Oz continued their descent into the realm of the forgotten. They went 3-6 in games, and extended their losing streak to 4 matches. Currently they have the same overall game record as ACE (11-17) but have an extra match win to place them a single rung higher.

Determined to take away last place from Oz (or ACE), KHAN stayed right on track to never win another match. They lost both of their matches, and in fact Chavi was the only player on their team to score a win (against hyvaa). Despite ACE being their only match win, the Air Force team is currently doing better in the overall standings with a game point different of -6 to KHAN's -12.

Thus we arrive at the title of this week's update. PL 2008-09 playoff qualifiers CJ, OZ and KHAN are all well and truly at the bottom of the barrel this week, and despite some mixed up lineups geared at giving rookies more playtime, their records are anything but excusable. In fact, if you look at the PL standings now, they're at least a partial mirror of the results at the end of the 2008-09 regular season.

[image loading]

Something is not right in the Broodwar universe.

Finally, we are extremely pleased this week to report ACE's first win of 2009-10. Coach Cho once again made a grave error in sending out Killer to win the deciding game, and DarkElf was able to capitalize on the opportunity and snatch victory.

Remember (Z)Action? You may recognize him from our last installment of Game of the Week where he was able to topple oddball strategist Horang2 in a unique PvZ. He has earned the honor of remaining in our spotlight for another week, this time against no pushover in TvZ, firebathero. Once again he showed impressive play and definite promise, worthy of his second consecutive Game of the Week title.


GOTW - Action vs Firebathero on Tornado
By Harem

This week's game begins with a standard 1rax double CC vs 2hat muta. Seeing this, FBH tried to be aggressive early on but Action managed to surround and snipe a firebat. With this snipe, Action barely holds off the early mnm that broke in on his natural.

Soon after, mutalisks spawn and kill the 3 firebats that headed for Action's third. Action then shows decent mutalisk micro in delaying FBH from leaving base as lurker aspect is still researching. When FBH does push out before vessel and loses his marines to mutalisks as lurker aspect finishes and hive starts morphing.

[image loading]


Vessel finally pops and FBH heads toward Action's natural with a standard army of 1 vessel, 3 tanks and medic/marine. In order to defend against this as consume has not yet finished yet, Action places another sunk to force FBH to have to siege and unsiege as well as cleverly utilizing the terrain and placing a few lurkers on high ground by his natural Once consume finished, Action starts to push back FBH with dark swarm.

An interesting note about this game is that Action actually researches Overlord Speed and then proceeds to place overlords in key places in order to spot for dropships.

[image loading]


FBH decides that it is time to take a third as he achieved map control in the center. Soon after in what would be one of the two big themes of the game (with the other being dropship defense), Action abuses defilers, much to FBH's dismay, with some really sick plague and dark swarm usage. Action manages to snipe 2 vessels while starting to secure a 4th base at 2oclock.

As Hive tech is now fully present on the map, FBH appropriately decides that it is time to start laying some spider mines. Action gets off yet another amazing plague while FBH unloads a dropship at the 2oclock expo. This was the start of much dropship aggression by FBH throughout the game as he needed to keep Action from getting too much gas or he would just get run over. FBH then sends another dropship 2oclock but only manages to drop 3marines before scourge kill it off. However, he was able to reinforce those marines with yet another dropship which manage to kill a lurker and massive amount of zerglings before dying.

[image loading]


Despite losing a few dropship's worth of mnm, FBH has still managed to macro up enough mnm to push out yet again while easily destroying some lurks along the way. However, Action's defiler usage laughs at FBH as FBH is yet again pushed back by swarm and plague.

Since Action has held four gas for this long, ultralisks have finally spawned. However, FBH finally manages to kill hatchery at 2oclock as he unloads another dropship of mnm. Action then manages to get a huge minedrag off which kills a big portion of FBH's remaining army. Even when playing against Zerg, FBH still receives nightmares of playing against Protoss.

[image loading]


Despite all this, FBH has three gas and has now started to pump tanks out of three factories. Unfortunately for FBH, Action decides to remake expansion at 2 oclock while also expanding to 6oclock. Scourge manage to kill a few more plagued vessels as FBH never bothered to repair them. Scourge also manage to stop another dropship in its attempt to take out 2oclock.

In a last ditch effort as he knows time is running out for him, FBH pushes to 6oclock with at least 4 tanks but it gets crushed by a big ultraling flank. To make matters even worse, scourge manage to kill 3 more vessels. Plus, a dropship that was headed to 7oclock gets spotted and scourge. Now, FBH has no way of stopping Action from dark swarming his way into FBH's third and natural and so FBH ggs.

[image loading]


Action showed some really impressive play in this game employing some really sick defiler usage while remaining calm and easily stopping FBH's dropship aggression. His defense and patience was really remarkable as he showed some really nice management based play. It was almost like there was a giant ticking timebomb as the game went on that FBH was painfully aware of. FBH was just outclassed by this newcomer who I hope gets sent out more by Estro.

Of course, if seeing firebathero lose and Samsung's morale sink to record lows wasn't enough fun for you, we also have some flavor in the numbers and investigation department. Last week we looked at the proleague phenomenon of mirrors and this week we're back on a similar subject, this time looking at some different aspects of them. Here is the skinny on the latest in mirror theory.

Statisfaction
By Heyoka

One of the hot topics so far this season has been the mirrors (and if it isn't, we here at proleague coverage will make it one - by force if necessary). This past week had 23 mirrors (10 ZvZ, 7 TvT, 5 PvP) out of a total of 34 games played. This far more than usual, but still, about half the games played so far this season have had the same race on both sides. With mirrors on the mind, it raises a few questions: who is playing all of these mirrors? Do the top players have a larger advantage in a mirror?

First, who has played the most mirrors this season? To get this, data was collected straight out of TLPD. An arbitrary cut off has been set for Zerg and Terran at 4 games played, and one at 3 for Protoss. The reason for this is that Zerg and Terran had around 20 players having played at least one, while P had just over half that. The chart is more to give a general idea than hard evidence for anything.

[image loading]


This is nothing terrible surprising. Most of the teams are represented here, and the ones who aren't are because their top players are 3-0 in their respective mirrors (Flash and Mind belong to this category). Its basically a list of who has been playing the most for each team, and what we can see is those players have been in a lot of mirrors at this point in the season. The terran distribution is somewhat unique in having a lot of people with 1-2 records (Really, Leta, HiyA, sKyHigh, MVP).

Perhaps it begins to shed some light as to why Oz has been underperforming, they have 3 players in this list (Jaedong, Killer, PerfectMan) and none of them are above 50%.

Anyway, taking the long way around that, We can see that in this environment (one with a high rate of mirror matches) the top players of each team can expect to play against their own race frequently. Knowing that, it brings up a topic of possible interest: is there any additional advantage the top players gain by playing against their own race? It stands to reason that a mirror match is the kind most likely to favor the player with more skill, with things such as "racial balance" are completely removed from the equation. Both sides have the same timings, as well as weapons at their disposal, so we should think that even a minor advantage in knowledge or execution of build orders, is much more likely to lead to victory than in a dynamic game.

To find this out, we headed over to TLPD again. This time to look at the top performers for each race. Data was used from the 08-09 season, solely because of the larger sample.

Here is how the top 10 players performed against each race. This is just sorting TLPD to spit out the top 10 players with the most wins against each race, their race and record is noted in the chart.

[image loading]


Notice that for each one, around half of the top ten players are of that race (exactly 5 for Zerg and Protoss, 6 for Terran). This isn't the most scientific, rigorous way of looking at this, but in a "glance and see" kind of way we can definitely see that the majority of top performers of each race are players of that race.

One small problem with this specifically is that the sample includes Battle Royal. That is likely to skew the numbers for the ZvZ rates, as this is sorting purely by number of wins and the zergs who played most matches are likely to accumulate victories (great stands out a little on that list). A larger problem is that we don't have any truly good metrics of player skill, if we had ways of measuring performance better than Elo or win percentage than we could figure out true distributions for matchups and see how different they are. We're also making the assumption that "number of total wins" is related to win percentage, and while it is in most cases (most of the players here have very high winrates) its certainly not uniform.

However, this is just a preliminary look. For a brief once-over, its pretty neat, and shows us it is a topic perhaps worth going into in better detail sometime.

Now that we have some clear ideas about how this season's matchups may influence results, its time to stop looking at abstract ideas and see how things actually are. There is no better way to follow (and get mad at) proleague results and trends than to keep in touch with how Fantasy Proleague is shaping up, and luckily Pachi is here to give us the latest.

Fantasy PL 09-10 Round 1 - Week 4
by pachi


Even though many big teams sat out this week in favor of international tournaments, the majority of the teams adapted and the top 10 was only slightly shuffled. However Hot_Bid, the PUNisher and Intothewow all made huge gains to muscle their way into the top 10 on the back of their (Z)ZerO, now hero.


STANDINGS

[image loading]




SUMMARY

  • ZerO surprise
    In a week with many of the bigger earners keeping (Z)Calm and earning (Z)ZerO points, it was Woongjin's star who led. Finally receiving some backup from teammates, the zerg ace was (P)free to earn enough points to catch up with KT's (T)Flash in points placing him at an equal first place at the end week.

  • WeMade Upsets
    WeMade continues to keep pushing out, out-foxing some stronger competition this week to put away CJ and Hwaseung. While early front-man (Z)RorO was unable to win a game, his teammates were able to (Z)Shine in order to give the few WeMade owners some piece of (T)Mind.

  • RuBy in the rough
    This hidden gemstone is the proven workhorse for many teams. (T)RuBy has repeatedly shown his value by abandoning the usual ACE rails and winning his regular matches consistently. However, it took a (T)DarkElf to step into the sunlight to score an ACE win for their first upset win against OZ.

  • It's a trap
    KHAN is pretty much dead for the round. They are now officially below ACE in the standings and barely worth anything in the trading Bazaar. Also shedding worth besides Samsung players, is Hwaseung's main players (T)Lomo and (P)BackHo. (P)BackHo (P)reaches new lows with a new trade value at lower than half his original cost after a sketchy performance in what could be HWA premier protoss's final Seung.



INTERVIEWS

This week's interviews focuses on the new arrivals, high risers who are now the cream of the crop and have serious chances for the trophy at the end of the round.

  • Hot_Bid - Currently sixth placed.
    First Abydos1, then semioldguy, now Hot_Bid. The fantasy proleague trinity is complete. While the other two are still hanging on quite well, it is the troll king who is now rising to take his throne. Does running the fantasy competition give a special insight?

    + Show Spoiler [Interview] +
    1. Suprisingly you started with and have since kept ESTRO star, hyvaa. Do you think he is earning his weight?
    Artosis told me that this is this year is Estro's year. But he says this every round -- isn't it cute? Last season Hyvaa went 3-8, and he started out well this round, but has started sucking badly and is headed toward the same record. I want to trade him, but then I look at the schedule and he's playing two ZvTs against Casy and PianO, and I have no better options. I already regret saying this when he's losing his third gas to a Casy dropship and he puts on the typical "Hyvaa face."

    2. You have been fairly trade heavy, even doing the bisu/calm shuffle. Are the people who still havn't traded yet missing out?
    While it's theoretically possible to win without trades, all the real men trade. Trading based on schedule almost guarantees you positive trade gain, but there are some extremely tough calls this season that happened to turn out right for me -- trading for Woongjin, NOT trading Zero for Hyuk, etc. There are so many teams that you have to push every edge you can get, including this Bisu/Calm shuffle that netted me a few extra points here and there. If I stay near the Top 10 (and thats a big IF) then the final week of trading will be insane.

    3. Seven of the former top 10 and Five TL Staff members are in the top 50, is this season rewarding skill or is it still all luck?
    TL Staff are finally where they should be! We think about PL far more than others I think, just because we have to write about it. Semioldguy is one of the most experienced owners, while Naz and I make our team together most rounds. Intrigue -- well he's just a gigantic luckbox. I can't explain it. You look at his team, it shouldn't really be special, yet somehow he's suddenly in the Top 50. I think you can only control about 50% of FPL. I think its very hard to luck your way into the Top 100 -- just about everyone on the front page of previous rounds had enormous trade gains.

    4. STX, KT, Hite, and SKT all took a break last week. This week they only play one game. How important will this be to the results of this season?
    I think anyone that traded KTR or SKT last week made a huge error. It was a schedule that invited panic trades, but ultimately the players and teams will end up with the same number of games. So who cares if your fantasy team drops rank this week? When KTR comes back, it's likely they will out perform Hwaseung or CJ -- KT hasn't even played ACE yet.

    5. Whats the biggest suprise so far in this season? KHAN? WeMade? Ace matches?
    WeMade without a doubt. If you made a WeMade all-in team, you'd be #1:
    10 Flash - 25
    6 Pointer - X (assume this guy is canceled out by your AT)
    4 Mind - 21
    1 Shine - 15
    5 Roro - 17
    2 Pure - 15
    2 WEM - 25
    Total: 118, good for Top 10

    As for Jaedong, why is everyone surprised? The Oz coaches said they wouldn't send him for ace so I don't know why so many people picked him T.T


  • the PUNisher - Currently eighth placed.
    Lo money? All-in on this guy. SkyRorOcketing up the charts is superhero, the PUNisher. Bi sure to keep an eye out on this guy forhitech fantasy proleague secrets.

    + Show Spoiler [Interview] +
    1. Your team has high and low scorers, but in your mind who was your star?

    I don't have a Ruby who Shines over the other players, but I have no weak links in my team. If I had to pick an MVP, it'd be my own Mind.

    2. You're pretty trade happy trading away your big name players, why? Where they zeros or just lacking the effort in their play?

    I don't have the Luxury of trading my cheaper players for better ones

    3. Speaking of trades, you made a pretty big switchup on your anti-team last week. No trouble at sea so far but is it just the calm before the storm?

    I am a man of Action but you can only ride the Rolster Coaster so long before it falls again.

    4. Whats your opinion on your performance so far? Are you just in luck or is it pure skill?

    I am doing Really Great but Anytime things Khan go Roro.

    5. Anything else?

    Crank dat ChoJJa Boy, Perfectman dat BackHo. Hite me Baby AnyTime. Reach Foru Stars.


  • KP_CollectoR - Currently ninth placed.
    Firstly could you give a brief introduction about yourself? (When did you join TeamLiquid? Why do you visit TeamLiquid? etc)
    Hi folks, I'm KP_CollectoR (better known as DimeCollectoR). I briefly did commentaries on youtube, and you may have seen me at the first few UC Berkeley class meetings.
    I joined TeamLiquid around last Thanksgiving. I love StarCraft to death so naturally I browse the site a lot. I'm also an aspiring foreigner Terran so if you're a top foreigner, I will pay you for lessons!

    + Show Spoiler [Interview] +
    1. You are currently the top ranking player in the 'first time player' group. Is this why you havn't traded? (You just click the trade tab and its all there) Otherwise, why no trades?
    There are a lot of reasons why I haven't traded, and honestly I still might if it feels right to me. With someone like Iris, for example, his trade value is so low that there is no real worthy replacement. Mostly it's just wanting to see how things play out, though it would be cool to be the best player without a trade!

    2. Are you looking to royal road? Or are you pessimistic about your chances?
    It's tough to say at this point. Right now a lot of the players ahead of me have ZerO but not Flash, so I can definitely move up depending on my team's results. I'm not sure how drastically things will change in the following weeks, but I feel like 'Rookie of the Year' (if there is such a thing) is definitely within my reach.

    3. Whats your biggest regret about your team? Iris?
    My biggest regret is having one more Protoss player than is necessary lol. It's unfortunate that Iris isn't playing all that much, but at least he's Terran!

    4. STX, KT, Hite, and SKT all took a break last week. This week they only play one game. How important will this be to the results of this season?
    It could be huge. I don't have enough experience to really say, but KT and SKT1 are at the top of the game right now. Their face-off should be great to watch.

    5. Whats the biggest suprise so far in this season? KHAN? WeMade? Ace matches?
    This season has been out of control. For me it's surprising to see a few of the MSL one-hit wonders (Luxury and Mind) revitalized and boosting their teams. I love seeing Midas back as well, and the best player in the world right now is a Terran. Life is good!

Enough focusing on the past, time is a beautiful river and we must keep moving forward. Fomos has drafted up an entertaining look at the week to come, and the wonderful konadora has magically transformed it from unintelligible moonspeak to a language we understand a little better.

Fresh from Korea
by Konadora

[image loading]


○SKT1 vs KT Rivalry Match - awesome lineups!
The rivalry match between SK Telecom T1 and KT Rolster, which will be held on the 9th has no mirror match at all. "Do-Taek-Myung" trio + (Z)Hyuk is the linup for SKT1, while KT has decided to send out the (T)Flash-(Z)Luxury one-two punch, together with (Z)HoeJJa and (P)Violet. Every set is expected to be closely watched by many fans, especially (P)Bisu's PvZ versus (Z)Luxury, as well as (P)BeSt vs (T)Flash, who recently returned from Vietnam, where he attended the Asian Indoor Games.

[image loading]


○(Z)Jaedong, another ZvZ!?
Hwaseung Oz's Jaedong will be playing yet 2 more ZvZs for both his entries this week. Fans are left wondering when will they ever see Jaedong play against the other two races - especially against Terran. While fans are demanding to see Jaedong play against Terrans, Jaedong will probably neither gain or lose anything as he plays Khan's (Z)great and MBC's (Z)Saint this week, regardless of score.

[image loading]


○Hwaseung's (Z)Killer, "Oh god."
In Hwaseung's attempt to bring out the next (Z)Jaedong, (Z)Killer, who has been sent out frequently since the start of 09-10 season has been upsetting many fans as he walked down a path full of nothing but obstacles. He is now on a 4 game losing streak after being nuked by 'The Emperor' (T)BoxeR, leading to his current score of 2-6. And unfortunately, his opponent this time is the 'Dinosaur Toss' (P)Stork. Even if he had the skills and the luck, Stork will be one tough opponent to face. Oh god.

[image loading]


○(Z)Kwanro: "We finally meet again, (Z)Shine!"
Woongjin's Kwanro stated in his recent interview that in his next game against WeMade, he wanted to play against Shine. Kwanro, who said he wanted to play against Shine after seeing his aggressive play that reminded of himself back in the days had his wish come true. With Kwanro now finally picking up the momentum and Shine brewing up a storm, this will be a true battle of the aggressors.

[image loading]


○ACE's (T)RuBy - Ready for take off!
ACE's young player Ruby recently defeated CJ's (T)sKyHigh in style - building an incredible number of Starports as though to represent the Air Force - and impressing many fans. And that same RuBy is facing eSTRO's (T)Really and WeMade's (T)Midas. With ACE's rising star performing so well, it will be a matter of time before there will be many fans supporting him, saying, "all my Kongs depend on you!" (reference to (Z)YellOw)

Source: Fomos

Now, let's look ahead. Week 4 has been the most boring week of ProLeague we've seen in a while. Luckily for us (and you) Week 5 looks to be one of the most exciting we've seen so far, with some seriously great team and individual matchups. Here are the games you better stay up for.

(P)Movie vs (Z)HyuN on Heartbreak Ridge

Movie has shown RIDICULOUS PvZ recently, with his intense sair/reaver play (Movie vs Calm on HBR anyone?) and HyuN is one of the MBC aces, along with Sea. We expect a great game, with some epic reavers some Movie. Movie should win this one, he's been playing so well against zergs that there just might be hope for protoss yet.

(Z)ZerO vs (P)Pure on Fighting Spirit

ZerO is one of the best ZvP players in the business and against an on-fire WeMade Fox he might hit a tough spots against their PvZ specialist. ZerO is definitely the favorite in this match but don't count Pure out just yet. This game could surprise a lot of people.

(P)BeSt vs (T)Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups, in a matchup between SK Telecom and KT Rolster? Yes please. If you don't stay up for this game, we don't know what to say. Flash is on fire and if BeSt can play anything like his old self this is going to be one hell of a TvP. Bet on FlaSh if you have any sense.

(Z)EffOrt vs (T)Light on Moon Glaive

EffOrt looks pretty damn good this season and Light's TvZ is as strong as ever. Let's hope for a dynamic and aggressive game on one of the more interesting maps to come out of this season. While Light is playing some decent StarCraft these days, EffOrt is a much better player overall. You can bet on EffOrt to take this just as much as you can bet the game will be a great watch.

(Z)sAviOr vs (P)Pusan on Tornado

Two old greats with a management/macro style going head to head on one of the most dynamic and entertaining maps this season? Maybe you should watch this game. Pusan has been playing some damn good StarCraft lately and sAviOr's ZvP has been nothing to make a joke out of. While he hasn't quite lived up to the 2009 destruction he promised, maybe the sAviOr fans can get a kick out of watching him destroy Pusan. Or get rolled by the Spirit Tosses macro. You should watch this game.

(T)Leta vs (P)Kal on Heartbreak Ridge

Two great players with creative and aggressive playstyles, this already has the makings of a great match. KaL has been really pulling things for STX recently, while Leta has had a bit of trouble in recreating the string of victories he had in the last season. Can Leta recover from his broken confidence and take down the SmugToss? We'll see.

Well, that about wraps up PL for this week. Next week brings us things that are bigger and better, or at the very least a match between SKT and KT that has no mirrors. All of us here at Proleague Update Central are excited for it, are you?


This Proleague update was brought to you by Team Liquid's PL 2009-10 coverage team - riptide, heyoka, pangshai and zulu_nation8. Thanks to keit as usual for the stellar graphics, pachi for the FPL update, konadora for the awesome translation, DoctorHelvetica for Week 5 previews, and Harem for guest writing GOTW!
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@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
AlTheCake
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada1071 Posts
November 06 2009 12:54 GMT
#2
my dick is hard
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 06 2009 12:56 GMT
#3
You and me both buddy
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Emon_
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
3925 Posts
November 06 2009 13:12 GMT
#4
wood +1
"I know that human beings and fish can coexist peacefully" -GWB ||
jtype
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
England2167 Posts
November 06 2009 13:36 GMT
#5
Beautiful write-up heyoka. Very nice! I'm so excited for the up-coming games and I'm sort of enjoying (although my FPL team isn't) these very 'upset-heavy' games recently.

Regarding Ruby building 500 starports - I can't believe I didn't see the relevance to him being on ACE, lol. I'm suprised I even remember my name sometimes..
miseiler
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States1389 Posts
November 06 2009 13:58 GMT
#6
Stars FINALLY performing. I was really beginning to despair, like the Khan fans.
"Jinro soo manly wearing only a T-Shirt while the Koreans freeze in their jackets" -- Double_O
"He's from Sweden, man. We have to fight polar bears on our way to school." -- Yusername
torm3ntin
Profile Joined October 2009
Brazil2534 Posts
November 06 2009 14:20 GMT
#7
nice read. can't wait to see this week's games.
Grubby and Ret fan, but a TERRAN player :D
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
November 06 2009 14:21 GMT
#8
hahahaha @ at the fantasy interviews
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Radfield
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada2720 Posts
November 06 2009 14:31 GMT
#9
Great write-up. I really look forward to these each week.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
November 06 2009 14:44 GMT
#10
sick writeup, you guys do such a great job of covering everything that's going on in PL…it's quite a task!

loved the "games to watch" section at the end.
✌
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 14:58:28
November 06 2009 14:54 GMT
#11
Very nice writeup. Anyone else think that jaedong might lose his edge without playing 4 games a week minimum on tv?
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
November 06 2009 15:39 GMT
#12
Great writeup guys, thanks!
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
MrHickoryHam54
Profile Joined January 2009
United States208 Posts
November 06 2009 15:53 GMT
#13
On November 06 2009 22:58 miseiler wrote:
Stars FINALLY performing. I was really beginning to despair, like the Khan fans.



agreed with the khan part lol. i mean, jangbi and FBH used to be pretty good.

but u cant rely on stork to carry the team. hes not jaedong....

yea, the stars are doing pretty well. zero is such a badass right now and i have him on my PL team. its so awesome
2009-10 Proleague MVP: Doctor.K_PsP
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
November 06 2009 16:00 GMT
#14
great, great write-up!!
CANNOT WAIT
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
s.a.y
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Croatia3840 Posts
November 06 2009 16:50 GMT
#15
great banner.

i have lomo and backho on the anti-team. i win.

but it's a trap. i have jangbi and KHAN.

FML.

thanks for writing this, the interviews are also awesome.

I am not good with quotes
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
November 06 2009 17:07 GMT
#16
Lol... I loved in the interview when Hot_Bid states his surprise about everyone pickin JD. Well not everyone knew that Oz wasn't gonna be sending him in... sigh...
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
November 06 2009 17:08 GMT
#17
lmao at the PUNisher <3<3<3
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
November 06 2009 17:50 GMT
#18
Great read!
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
KP_CollectoR
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States744 Posts
November 06 2009 17:52 GMT
#19
On November 07 2009 02:08 alffla wrote:
lmao at the PUNisher <3<3<3


qft
English Brood War Commentaries - Please Subscribe! youtube.com/dimecollectorsc... Winner of The "LeBron" Award for Best Rookie (FPL 5)
The Raurosaur
Profile Joined April 2009
198 Posts
November 06 2009 19:21 GMT
#20
Great read, thanks
:(){:|:&};:
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 06 2009 19:29 GMT
#21
On November 06 2009 22:36 jtype wrote:
Regarding Ruby building 500 starports - I can't believe I didn't see the relevance to him being on ACE, lol. I'm suprised I even remember my name sometimes..


More importantly, when was the last time an ACE member got to do an in-game ceremony against a well known proleague regular? Every part of it is great.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Ota Solgryn
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark2011 Posts
November 06 2009 19:52 GMT
#22
Absolutely insane writeup. Love these articles.

And why oh why didnt I see the interview where Oz coach said JD would not be sent for ace. Would be top 50 with flash instead of JD.

ihasaKAROT: "Wish people would stop wasting their lives on finding flaws in others"
MrHickoryHam54
Profile Joined January 2009
United States208 Posts
November 06 2009 20:34 GMT
#23
with all due respect to coach Cho of Oz, HE NEEDS TO GO JUMP OFF A CLIFF!!!

when the hell will he realize that no one on his team has ANY chance of beating ppl like flash or bisu EXCEPT JD!!!!

no matter what idiot sc fans try to say about lomo or killer, THEY ARE BAD!!!

last yr, they put jd for like, every match, and look where it got them: SILVER MEDAL

hey, when something is working, PLEASE CONSIDER STICKING TO IT!!!
2009-10 Proleague MVP: Doctor.K_PsP
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-06 20:48:08
November 06 2009 20:47 GMT
#24
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
November 06 2009 21:13 GMT
#25
nice. however, should it be "peace of mind" instead of "piece of mind"? (lol all those puns were lulzy)
Writer
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
November 06 2009 21:24 GMT
#26
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
Show nested quote +
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.

Flash became known for his really strong TvP. Though hs TvT is certainly strongest his TvZ / TvP is equally strong imo. (We dont know cus he neither played Jaedong / Effort / Calm or Bisu / Stork lately)
In the woods, there lurks..
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 06 2009 21:56 GMT
#27
While all of Flash's matchups are terrifying right now, I think its fair to refer to his TvP as his best in this kind of context. It is not only the matchup he became known for, he singlehandedly made the TvP statistic on Medusa last season look way more balanced than it "actually" was (going a combined 11-1 on both, during a time when no terran was winning TvPs).

His TvP remains masterful even during times of protoss dominance and during times when he is playing 'below his best' overall.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
seppolevne
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada1681 Posts
November 06 2009 22:49 GMT
#28
Really great writeup, matches to look forward to is really nice. Interview with the PUNisher was funny as hell, thanks ^^
J- Pirate Udyr WW T- Pirate Riven Galio M- Galio Annie S- Sona Lux -- Always farm, never carry.
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
November 06 2009 22:55 GMT
#29
On November 07 2009 05:34 MrHickoryHam54 wrote:
with all due respect to coach Cho of Oz, HE NEEDS TO GO JUMP OFF A CLIFF!!!

when the hell will he realize that no one on his team has ANY chance of beating ppl like flash or bisu EXCEPT JD!!!!

no matter what idiot sc fans try to say about lomo or killer, THEY ARE BAD!!!

last yr, they put jd for like, every match, and look where it got them: SILVER MEDAL

hey, when something is working, PLEASE CONSIDER STICKING TO IT!!!


I get the feeling that it's a part of an unspoken deal betweeen Oz Cho and Jaedong's parents in order to keep Jaedong playing. Jaedong's parents legally makes the contract decisions and were really unhappy about Jaedong's stress.
Wake up Mr. B!
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
November 06 2009 23:40 GMT
#30
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
Show nested quote +
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.


He'll always be known for his revolution of TvP, statistics aside, FlaSh is to TvP what Bisu is to PvZ.
RIP Aaliyah
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
November 07 2009 01:34 GMT
#31
Killer is gonna get killed.
Brood War loyalist
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
November 07 2009 02:21 GMT
#32
On November 07 2009 08:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.


He'll always be known for his revolution of TvP, statistics aside, FlaSh is to TvP what Bisu is to PvZ.

Is it to the same degree, though? I really don't know, if you could show me, that'd be great.
Jaedong
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 02:33:55
November 07 2009 02:33 GMT
#33
On November 07 2009 11:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 08:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On November 07 2009 05:47 Japakazol wrote:
BeSt vs Flash on Fighting Spirit

The two best macro players on earth, playing in their best matchups


Flash's TvP is terrifying, and my vote for the best in the world. But do you really think it's his best? Note that he sports a staggering 71% TvT. And his TvZ has recently exceeded his TvP percentage-wise as well, making TvP statistically his worst matchup.


He'll always be known for his revolution of TvP, statistics aside, FlaSh is to TvP what Bisu is to PvZ.

Is it to the same degree, though? I really don't know, if you could show me, that'd be great.



It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything."
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 02:50:27
November 07 2009 02:49 GMT
#34
Flash almost completely obsoleted a unit that had been used consistently -- for years -- and was thought to be the CAUSE of the PvT imbalance in the lategame. You're absolutely insane if you don't think Flash's build is comparable to Bisu's build in match up changing terms. There's a reason 90% of the time you only see Arbiters instead of carriers lategame, now.
Remember Violet.
SwEEt[TearS]
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1575 Posts
November 07 2009 02:56 GMT
#35
great read ^^

I'm hoping for a gg between savior and pusan
#1 arb fan -- Raelcun is Nuclear backwards. Rekrul is Lurker backwards. Grobyc is Cyborg backwards. Eniram is Marine backwards.
cunninglinguists
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States925 Posts
November 07 2009 02:56 GMT
#36
oh my god the punisher's interview is absolutely amazing
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
November 07 2009 03:00 GMT
#37
This never disappoints
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 07 2009 03:07 GMT
#38
On November 07 2009 00:53 MrHickoryHam54 wrote:
but u cant rely on stork to carry the team. hes not jaedong....

Yeah. You can't rely on Stork to be Jaedong when Jaedong's "not Jaedong" either.
Moderator
Triple7
Profile Joined April 2009
United States656 Posts
November 07 2009 03:19 GMT
#39
Nooo! SKT vs KT is Monday morning for me
지지이이이이이이이이이이이
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
November 07 2009 03:29 GMT
#40
On November 07 2009 11:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash almost completely obsoleted a unit that had been used consistently -- for years -- and was thought to be the CAUSE of the PvT imbalance in the lategame. You're absolutely insane if you don't think Flash's build is comparable to Bisu's build in match up changing terms. There's a reason 90% of the time you only see Arbiters instead of carriers lategame, now.


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12150_Flash_vs_JangBi/vod

Case closed, sir. Flash didn't obsolete shit. There is a reason that arbiters are used more often now, and that reason is that arbiters kick ass up and down the block without requiring a period of vulnerability as you tech switch, not because flash made carriers useless.
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
mptj
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States485 Posts
November 07 2009 03:37 GMT
#41
good read man. thnx
"Only the Good Die Young"
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
November 07 2009 03:40 GMT
#42
On November 07 2009 12:29 Japakazol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 11:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash almost completely obsoleted a unit that had been used consistently -- for years -- and was thought to be the CAUSE of the PvT imbalance in the lategame. You're absolutely insane if you don't think Flash's build is comparable to Bisu's build in match up changing terms. There's a reason 90% of the time you only see Arbiters instead of carriers lategame, now.


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12150_Flash_vs_JangBi/vod

Case closed, sir. Flash didn't obsolete shit. There is a reason that arbiters are used more often now, and that reason is that arbiters kick ass up and down the block without requiring a period of vulnerability as you tech switch, not because flash made carriers useless.


You're insane and have no reading comprehension.
Remember Violet.
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11143 Posts
November 07 2009 03:42 GMT
#43
Pure is a PvZ specialist???
brood war for life, brood war forever
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 03:53:14
November 07 2009 03:52 GMT
#44
On November 07 2009 12:29 Japakazol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 11:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash almost completely obsoleted a unit that had been used consistently -- for years -- and was thought to be the CAUSE of the PvT imbalance in the lategame. You're absolutely insane if you don't think Flash's build is comparable to Bisu's build in match up changing terms. There's a reason 90% of the time you only see Arbiters instead of carriers lategame, now.


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12150_Flash_vs_JangBi/vod

Case closed, sir. Flash didn't obsolete shit. There is a reason that arbiters are used more often now, and that reason is that arbiters kick ass up and down the block without requiring a period of vulnerability as you tech switch, not because flash made carriers useless.


Congrats you found 1 game where Protoss used carriers and won

Let's also ignore that this was Jangbi during his PvT beast period; ie. S-class vs S-class match

Case closed indeed
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2584 Posts
November 07 2009 03:54 GMT
#45
U guys are teh Best..... Can C U guys Gettin bettehhh every weeek
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
November 07 2009 04:58 GMT
#46
On November 07 2009 12:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 12:29 Japakazol wrote:
On November 07 2009 11:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash almost completely obsoleted a unit that had been used consistently -- for years -- and was thought to be the CAUSE of the PvT imbalance in the lategame. You're absolutely insane if you don't think Flash's build is comparable to Bisu's build in match up changing terms. There's a reason 90% of the time you only see Arbiters instead of carriers lategame, now.


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12150_Flash_vs_JangBi/vod

Case closed, sir. Flash didn't obsolete shit. There is a reason that arbiters are used more often now, and that reason is that arbiters kick ass up and down the block without requiring a period of vulnerability as you tech switch, not because flash made carriers useless.


You're insane and have no reading comprehension.


Hmm...You claim that flash made carriers obsolete, I show you a recent game where flash loses to carriers. Maybe I'm completely insane but that sounds pretty reasonable to me. Enlighten my feeble mind as to the true hidden meaning of your words.
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 07:04:59
November 07 2009 07:01 GMT
#47
I said almost obsolete, meaning they're used a completely small fraction of the time they were used before, but not completely never used. This is where your reading comprehension is in question.

I realize there's the occasional game where Carriers make a showing, and even win! Fuck, Horang2 did it the other day. That doesn't stop the unit from being tossed to the wayside in standard play, especially the ENORMOUS drop off in use they saw after the Flash build. And I mean absolutely enormous. It'd be like if Terran stopped using Science vessels in lategame TvZ (You're a khan fan, you should realize this more than anyone. Stork abused the fuck out of Carriers for a solid 2 years before Flash made his build, heck, he destroyed FLASH several times before the Flash build. They even gave him a golden carrier pin for it).

Also, your argument of "Here's one match where it won in the past year." is silly. FBH used Battlecruisers to kill Jaedong, didn't make Battlecruisers good or any less obsolete in the general scope of the match up.
Remember Violet.
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 07:28:18
November 07 2009 07:25 GMT
#48
Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around:

On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything."


Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking).

Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really.
Remember Violet.
Mortician
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Bulgaria2332 Posts
November 07 2009 09:08 GMT
#49
On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around:

Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything."


Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking).

Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really.


apm =/= good macro/micro

eg by.hero
"If anything, the skill cap in sc2 is higher [than sc1] because there are a lot more things you can do at one given time. " darmousseh
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 09:31:41
November 07 2009 09:22 GMT
#50
EAPM does but semantics aren't the point. Flash is not flawless mechanically, and is quite honestly below his S-Class Z and P partners when it comes to mechanics (Bisu and Jaedong respectively. He's probably ahead of Stork).
Remember Violet.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
November 07 2009 09:44 GMT
#51
Thanks for the writeup
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
wifebeater
Profile Joined January 2008
178 Posts
November 07 2009 09:55 GMT
#52
omg that picture is sick.. I just have to read this article just because of that!

brb
Villain Terran~~~~~~~~~~
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36374 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 11:23:22
November 07 2009 11:22 GMT
#53
On November 07 2009 18:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:
EAPM does but semantics aren't the point. Flash is not flawless mechanically, and is quite honestly below his S-Class Z and P partners when it comes to mechanics (Bisu and Jaedong respectively. He's probably ahead of Stork).

I disagree, if you watch Flash play he's so on top of everything around the map, his macro and micro are just so clean. You can't have the type of production and army management without being just as good mechanically as the other top S-Class guys. Just watching him in TvZ is ridiculous, his armies are more alert (rarely every losing stray units), his defense versus mutas is by far the best (something that is very mechanically oriented) and his macro is as close to perfect as you can get.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
November 07 2009 11:42 GMT
#54
I wouldn't say Jaedongs mechanics are better than Flash's TBH. Jaedong definitely has superb macro/micro, but I don't think his mechanics are surpassing the majority of the current strong players that much.

As Hot_Bid said, Flash really knows how to adapt, defend with minimal losses, macro/micro, etc. Definitely not just a straight up "macro" player.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 11:49:43
November 07 2009 11:44 GMT
#55
On November 07 2009 20:22 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 18:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:
EAPM does but semantics aren't the point. Flash is not flawless mechanically, and is quite honestly below his S-Class Z and P partners when it comes to mechanics (Bisu and Jaedong respectively. He's probably ahead of Stork).

I disagree, if you watch Flash play he's so on top of everything around the map, his macro and micro are just so clean. You can't have the type of production and army management without being just as good mechanically as the other top S-Class guys. Just watching him in TvZ is ridiculous, his armies are more alert (rarely every losing stray units), his defense versus mutas is by far the best (something that is very mechanically oriented) and his macro is as close to perfect as you can get.


That doesn't stop Jaedong and Bisu from doing the exact same, but moreso. I love Flash to pieces, but I think it's a stretch to consider his micro to be equivalent to Jaedong's. He may be more even with Bisu in raw mechanics than I give him credit for, but what you described as watching him play so cleanly and precisely is exactly what you see in Bisu's view, as well, only Bisu operates faster, typically.

Citing examples is easy enough -- Jaedong double muta micro, Bisu's crazy harassment multitask combo, etc etc, but it's more a matter of comparison than just picking things out that you like about the player and saying that makes him flawless, mechanically speaking.

Though, Flash's TvZ control has definitely taken a step up, recently. He's always had the best MnM, but it's somehow even better nowadays. Maybe he's caught up. I just remember, not even a few months ago, everyone understood that Flash wasn't a mechanically gifted monster like Jaedong, just, well, very well optimized.
Remember Violet.
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 11:46:35
November 07 2009 11:46 GMT
#56
The recommended game is super sick, thank you. Had missed that one.
(Z)Action looks like a REAL good player. Watching the mini map a lot in the game, and he was constantly streaming units out. Looked unstoppable.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
November 07 2009 12:31 GMT
#57
KT vs SKT will be the match of the weeeeeeek!!11one
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
November 07 2009 12:36 GMT
#58
On November 07 2009 20:22 Hot_Bid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 18:22 TwoToneTerran wrote:
EAPM does but semantics aren't the point. Flash is not flawless mechanically, and is quite honestly below his S-Class Z and P partners when it comes to mechanics (Bisu and Jaedong respectively. He's probably ahead of Stork).

I disagree, if you watch Flash play he's so on top of everything around the map, his macro and micro are just so clean. You can't have the type of production and army management without being just as good mechanically as the other top S-Class guys. Just watching him in TvZ is ridiculous, his armies are more alert (rarely every losing stray units), his defense versus mutas is by far the best (something that is very mechanically oriented) and his macro is as close to perfect as you can get.

I gotta agree with HB, did you see the way Flash trade 1 marine for 1 muta vs by.hero on HBR? His apm is 300+ but his control, EAPM and reaction time is way better than pros with 500 apm.

That being said, the way Stork crushes everyone with 250apm is seriously mindblowing
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
November 07 2009 12:39 GMT
#59
I totally agree with Hot_Bid as well. That is something I've noticed a lot in Flash's recent TvZ's; his marines are on constant alert, his reaction time is just amazing. Knowing that he keeps up perfect macro while doing this makes me feel like I'm watching a fucking Team Melee game. Flash's mechanics are just as impressive as Bisu's and Jaedong's.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
frozenclaw
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Canada409 Posts
November 07 2009 13:17 GMT
#60
Wow, really nice write-up. Thank you for this great read!
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 14:44:39
November 07 2009 14:42 GMT
#61
On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around:

Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything."


Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking).

Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really.


Bisu is usually under 300 average apm in televised games. Said so himself in a battle.net attack episode. I wouldn't think bisu regularly breaks 350 apm. Thus your post is pretty much bullshit.

Since bisu's average apm usually only barely surpasses flash's and since you evidently equate apm with mechanics (which is stupid by the way), your logic becomes faulty.

Flash looks slow when you watch him FPView. But he has an incredible flow when cycling through actions that you can't see in many other players. He always knows what needs to be done and where his attention needs to be diverted to at every single point of the game.

Flash has a very methodical and consistent approach to mechanics, he does what needs to be done. Whereas a player like bisu looks faster because his mechanics are very reactional, switching between screens blazingly fast, even though it might not be the optimal use of his apm. Same with jaedong...
DreaM)XeRO
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Korea (South)4667 Posts
November 07 2009 16:24 GMT
#62
good god how is Lux vs Bisu not recommended
?
cw)minsean(ru
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 07 2009 17:55 GMT
#63
Fomos mentioned it, seemed redundant to bring it up again
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
iNfeRnaL *
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Germany1908 Posts
November 07 2009 18:18 GMT
#64
Fucking sick write up, kudos sir.
That was one good read.
TotalDominator
Profile Joined February 2009
United States30 Posts
November 07 2009 19:19 GMT
#65
samsung is 1-5 because the coach keeps making retarded choices

i know jangbi has digressed, but you ALWAYS have to send him out at least once especially because khan isn't that great this year...stork and great should be sent out too obviously

FBH sucks, he just can't win after his lasik surgery...but thne again he couldnt win be4 that either. sucks, he used to be pretty decent.

i hate miracle by the way. thats just giving up a game there.

please send out players that actually have a chance to win
PerfectMan for Bonjwa!
TotalDominator
Profile Joined February 2009
United States30 Posts
November 07 2009 19:20 GMT
#66
it wouldve been nice if khan signed jaedong, btw...
PerfectMan for Bonjwa!
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
November 07 2009 20:26 GMT
#67
This was awesome.

I cannot wait for the Leta vs Kal game. That one really stood out to me as going to be an awesome game.

I also LOL'd at plugging in players names to complete a sentence. That one gets me every time <3
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-07 21:54:47
November 07 2009 21:54 GMT
#68
On November 07 2009 23:42 LaLuSh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around:

On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything."


Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking).

Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really.


Bisu is usually under 300 average apm in televised games. Said so himself in a battle.net attack episode. I wouldn't think bisu regularly breaks 350 apm. Thus your post is pretty much bullshit.

Since bisu's average apm usually only barely surpasses flash's and since you evidently equate apm with mechanics (which is stupid by the way), your logic becomes faulty.



I don't equate JUST apm with mechanics, but if APM somehow isn't part of mechanics than I don't know what is. Anyhow, the OSL apm counter has placed Bisu above 400 before. He may not typically do it, but he has and can.

THE POINT BEING, Flash is amazing, but it's daft to say he's a great player because he has
flawless mechanics, when there's atleast one person (Jaedong) who has better, and arguably more (Other terrans, Bisu, et al). Flash's greatest strengths in comparison to his S-class brethren are in his builds and game sense, plain and simple.
Remember Violet.
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
November 08 2009 01:07 GMT
#69
On November 08 2009 06:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2009 23:42 LaLuSh wrote:
On November 07 2009 16:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Oh also I totally didn't catch this the first time around:

On November 07 2009 11:33 Japakazol wrote:
It's definitely not, imo. Flash made a somewhat minor innovation to TvP by getting a really fast armory; his TvP prowess stems mostly from flawless mechanics and macro than from some kind of strategic revolution. Bisu is a mechanical fiend as well, but his contribution to the matchup dynamic was far more profound. Lesser players can copy the "Bisu build" with a somewhat high degree of fidelity, whereas copying the "flash build" really amounts to "getting really good at everything."


Flash is, mechanically, one of the weakest 'top' players in broodwar. For a top tier terran he has specifically average APM (He rarely breaks 400, whereas both Bisu and Jaedong stay well above a 400 average in an effort demanding game). I won't argue that his macro is amazing, and how he allots his less than stellar APM is impressive, but Flash's real strength comes from incredibly well optimized builds(which is primarily the cause of his eyepopping macro, less than any specific mechanical ability) and, more importantly, unparalleled in game sense (things like timing and positioning which aren't as well examined and demonstrated as basic mechanics like micro, apm and multitasking).

Now he's obviously very mechanically impressive, but, and I say this as arguably the biggest Flash fanboy on the forums, his mechanics are nowhere near flawless. That's Jaedong you'd be talking about. I'd liken Flash more to Stork, really.


Bisu is usually under 300 average apm in televised games. Said so himself in a battle.net attack episode. I wouldn't think bisu regularly breaks 350 apm. Thus your post is pretty much bullshit.

Since bisu's average apm usually only barely surpasses flash's and since you evidently equate apm with mechanics (which is stupid by the way), your logic becomes faulty.



I don't equate JUST apm with mechanics, but if APM somehow isn't part of mechanics than I don't know what is. Anyhow, the OSL apm counter has placed Bisu above 400 before. He may not typically do it, but he has and can.

THE POINT BEING, Flash is amazing, but it's daft to say he's a great player because he has
flawless mechanics, when there's atleast one person (Jaedong) who has better, and arguably more (Other terrans, Bisu, et al). Flash's greatest strengths in comparison to his S-class brethren are in his builds and game sense, plain and simple.



All right man, try to understand the point instead of microanalyzing my word choice. Clearly I didn't mean "flawless" in the absolute literal sense that he never makes a mistake, but simply that he is a mechanical titan on the level of jd and bisu. Sure, you can argue jaedong has better mechanics, but that's pretty meaningless because jaedong has better mechanics than everyone. (incidentally I don't know where you're getting your apm figures; someone above me beat me to the punch by quoting bisu in his bnet attack episode saying his apm is more like 250-300. Flash is higher than that)

Really though, I think our disagreement is semantic only and stems mainly from the fact that I'm picking words casually and don't know if they refer to exactly what I mean. In Flash vs stork on blue storm, his minerals never get above 2-300 unless he's saving for a command center. That's astounding to me and I call it flawless mechanics. You're calling it "optimized." Shrug. What are we really arguing here?
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
November 08 2009 01:42 GMT
#70
Our disagreement stemmed from you saying that the Flash Build was a "Minor" Change in the TvP metagame.
Remember Violet.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
November 08 2009 02:58 GMT
#71
Flash is much slower than Bisu or Jaedong both apm wise and multitasking wise. Bisu is only 300-350, never dropping below 300, from his IEF/WWI reps which is definitely higher than Flash, stop spreading bogus info. But apm is not really that important here, I mean Bisu is comparable at the very least to Jaedong in multitasking when he's probably around 50-75 apm less overall.

Frankly he's not really much, if any more efficient given how poor his reaction times are and his complete inability to fight multiple battles at once. The Bisu/Flash & Jaedong/Flash series are very telling to who is better at multitasking and how great that margin is.

Both his micro (particularly against mutas) and macro (very solidly generally but does slip not irregularly) are excellent, but his multitasking is extremely poor for someone at his level of play and definitely his weakest area. He loses units carelessly all the time simply because he's not watching them and he's lost quite a number of games simply due to this fact (a la vs Iris on HBR when there's a 2 front battle and he doesn't micro the critical area). He is extremely conservative with harassment and always tries to limit crucial fights to 1 area at a time, clear indicators that he feels much more comfortable winning the game outside of mechanics (where his real strengths are). His play is smooth yes, but that's because he doesn't strive for simultaneous engagements that players like Bisu, Jaedong, or Nada really thrive in.
Liquipedia
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
November 08 2009 04:29 GMT
#72
On November 08 2009 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Our disagreement stemmed from you saying that the Flash Build was a "Minor" Change in the TvP metagame.


Relative to the seismic shift Bisu caused in PvZ, I'd say that's pretty accurate.
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-08 09:15:53
November 08 2009 07:14 GMT
#73
The Flash build was the biggest metagame shift in TvP since Oov, it's easily comparable. I mean, the Protoss lategame just ISN'T even close to similar to what it was 2 years ago.

For pure comparison, Bisu's build (forge FE into fast Sair/dt) was used to counter 3hatch minimalist zerg which was a big problem for protoss, but Zergs still play similarly economy hungry to that on a fair basis because the Sair/DT is not the end all be all killer of fast economy Zerg builds.

What Flash did WAS a counter to carriers, plain and simple, though it wasn't just his build but his anti-interceptor playstyle that made the Flash build nearly insurmountable vs Carriers.

I don't think Sair/DT was as metagame changing as Fast Armories just because you see carriers less often than you see savior style zergs (It's easier to stop Sair/DT with that style than it is to stop Fast Armories with Carriers). Putting that aside, Bisu himself, who isn't a one trick PvZ pony, had more of an impact on PvZ than Flash had on TvP, in general. Bisu changed the match up and suddenly there were protosses winning all over the place, whether or not they used the Bisu Build -- standardizing Forge FE being the biggest thing taken from that. There wasn't another Terran era after Flash figured out how to stomp his race's hard match up.
Remember Violet.
Japakazol
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States102 Posts
November 08 2009 17:10 GMT
#74
On November 08 2009 16:14 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The Flash build was the biggest metagame shift in TvP since Oov, it's easily comparable. I mean, the Protoss lategame just ISN'T even close to similar to what it was 2 years ago.



Isn't it possible that the decline in usage of carriers late game in the last 2 years is as much due to the fact that 2 years ago you had maps which are fantastic for carriers (katrina, blue storm) and now you have maps that are merely okay for carriers (destination, HBR) as it is to a change in builds? Also, do all modern terrans even copy the flash fast armory on a regular basis?
We feel your presence. u gotta skate
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
November 08 2009 17:23 GMT
#75
Considering Carriers were primary use for several years and that Protoss started using Arbiters on Katrina to try to beat Flash in the first place (ask Bisu how well that went), I'd say it's more than just coincidence that the anti carrier build was made and, suddenly, everyone stops using carriers for the most part. I bet it'd be pretty easy to find old maps that, in retrospect, would be better for Arbiters than carriers, but no one thought of that back then because Carriers ruled.

Also, the Flash build is still used pretty often? Specifically by Flash, mind you, but fast upgrades also make a tank army with a few Goliaths a monster, as well, when backed by sound economy. That's one of the reasons it's so good.
Remember Violet.
FakeKisser
Profile Joined September 2008
United States159 Posts
November 09 2009 17:15 GMT
#76
Excellent stuff! sKyHigh didn't perform well for my Fantasy Team this week, and I wish I had more WeMade players, but my team is not doing horrible.
"Every generation needs a revolution" - Thomas Jefferson
bjornkavist
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1235 Posts
November 09 2009 23:10 GMT
#77
i have (P)Stork and Khan, I knew my fanboyism wud be the death of me, well (P)Stork's doing alright...
https://soundcloud.com/bbols
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
November 09 2009 23:19 GMT
#78
Flash's TvP revolution was anything but minor. The double armory build is incredibly important. Equally so to the Bisu build. It did the same thing after all. He used it to demolish a player who was thought invincible in that match-up (Stork's PvT/sAviOr's ZvP) and turned his races greatest weakness into a strength. Then he ushered in a wave of terran dominance against protoss.
RIP Aaliyah
Seline
Profile Joined November 2009
Korea (South)1 Post
November 13 2009 10:16 GMT
#79
Good Read Thanks Ruby Fighting!
Olleh!
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