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On May 09 2009 05:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
eh, remember, he only talked to you, he never tried to infiltrate the town circle(to my knowledge) which increases his chance of finding people. But yeah, having ck's hunt down eachother could be interesting.
Well I finally got to reading most of the thread now.
But yeah, I think there were a few issues that combined to fuck us over the most. Since we had a mafioso mayor we didn't have any way to really get communicating or establish a circle. To my knowledge there really was no town circle. I know me and Malongo talked a bit, and we were probably two of the most active townies.
The other problem was Exam season. That lovely month period (Depending on when your school ends) that effects many players and gives mafia ways to hide when they are not actually inactive. Its sucks, but its either my second or third game that was during an exam season. It kills us.
I had a lot of stuff to do and really didn't have the time to read everyone's post and read deeply and analyze game play. I basically skimmed posts tried to do what seemed right and when we basically knew Qatol was mafia I was kind of hoping against hope he wasn't, but knew 
Also Ace, urmudda I knew there was 2 mafia's after the Bockit kill rofl? whatchuu talkin bout?
I think we definitely n eed to start the next game in about a week or two, when the exam excuses are gone.
I think we should Require voting, whether its abstaining or trying to kill someone. (I do however think abstaining votes should NOT count against the town if there is a double lynch vote)
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My afterthoughts about the game balance:
1- While I think hidden numbers is playable (about roles), I think that its a handicap for the town more than mafia. I mean theres no way to counter-check a player for trustability. Lack of info hurts the town incredibly in this case.
2- Two mafias is a good idea. Letting them play together not. After mafia A "found" mafia B there was nothing the town could do. It was a 6 KP machine against a 1 KP unorganized town. Even with full town operation and 0 inactives 9 players can cause enough confusion to buy time. If something the winning conditions should have been separated win, to force at least a couple of crossed hits.
3- Office sucks. I ve posted this at least 3 times in mafia discussion. Last game (chuiu) a DT gets the office, some smart rolechecks and from there it was GG. I mean, even if we dont want it there will be always players roleclaiming to the head of the town. Semioldguy made it clear about not roleclaiming him, yet a DT that rolechecked a DT contacted him. This game Qatol got a DT and a MD to roleclaim. So i still think No More Office.
4- DTs are now way underpowered. They can no longer trust anyone, they cant rolecheck day 1 they cant do checklists. More important: they need time to help the town. The only thing we got from the DT alive were 2 cluechecks. With the mafia aiming them and the capped power they have i think its time to raise them a little.
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the thing about office, as was shown in tracil's game is that it stimulates discussion for day1 and gives us a lynch outcome. otherwise you resort to fairly random accusations and seeing how people react. it's not like you'll dig out any clues in day1 anyway
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I think the role finder ability that was discussed in one of the mafia threads a while back should be tested. Maybe a Random role generator? So it allows people to build some trust. In case its not obvious by the name. Just generates a random townie name and you get that role.
Simple enough to allow the town to gain trust or find someone out. But not direct enough where you get the powerful alliances really fast or figure out mafias real fast. I think its a good balance between role finder and role checks.
Also I demand a petition for the mafia forum!
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On May 09 2009 14:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think the role finder ability that was discussed in one of the mafia threads a while back should be tested. Maybe a Random role generator? So it allows people to build some trust. In case its not obvious by the name. Just generates a random townie name and you get that role.
Simple enough to allow the town to gain trust or find someone out. But not direct enough where you get the powerful alliances really fast or figure out mafias real fast. I think its a good balance between role finder and role checks.
Also I demand a petition for the mafia forum!
Rolefinder was one of the most imbalanced ideas we had...... It basically just lets all the blues find each other AND the townies are totally ignored. Plus it confirms townies, which is bad.
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The post game discussion has been very interesting and I think I'm now more prepared to play a more active role in the next game played. I'll have to start PM-ing people more and getting more involved with all the discussions. The only PM I got all game was from Qatol and it made me think he was mafia! I guess I should have trusted my instincts more.
This was a very rough game for my first game, I must say. You really couldn't be sure about anyone, and then when the hits started rolling in with an incredible degree of accuracy....it's too hard not to panic.
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On May 09 2009 16:05 Scamp wrote:
The post game discussion has been very interesting and I think I'm now more prepared to play a more active role in the next game played. I'll have to start PM-ing people more and getting more involved with all the discussions. The only PM I got all game was from Qatol and it made me think he was mafia! I guess I should have trusted my instincts more.
This was a very rough game for my first game, I must say. You really couldn't be sure about anyone, and then when the hits started rolling in with an incredible degree of accuracy....it's too hard not to panic.
Actually my PM to you was honest. It had absolutely nothing to do with my role.
(contents below)
+ Show Spoiler +
Don't worry about the more experienced players. Just because they're posting a lot and making accusations doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about any more than anyone else.
Seriously, the biggest thing you can do for this game is just be active. Participate in the game. When someone makes a post that you think is sketchy, call them out on it. When you agree with something, explain why.
Talking to people behind the scenes via PM is also a useful way of staying active. If you think a certain post might be construed as fishy, ask someone behind the scenes about it. I have other players "sanity check" my potential posts ALL THE TIME. Basically just watch people and make your own decisions on whom you think you can trust.
A big way to get better very quickly is to read some of the old games.
With that in mind, who do you think we should be looking at as our next suspect? Who looks suspicious/innocent to you?
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Hey you saved it. Cool beans.
It was that last question that clued me in that you really could be mafia. I suppose it could have just been a friendly question in order to get me thinking and posting but it seemed weird that you would just ask something like that. I kind of got the feeling it was "gauge the new player and if he's insightful then kill him quickly."
But even though you were mafia after all that may not have been the case anyway.
I really should have sent out more PMs and trusted my instincts. Turns out (after the fact, of course) that they were pretty good. Things just got so crazy and confusing that it became impossible to really find someone I felt I could trust. Even though I never protected a mafia I was unfortunate that the mafia never hit anyone I protected other than Pyrr who was double-hit and RoL who was hit when I was also hit. I would have PM-ed whoever I saved even though Qatol's explanation as to why I shouldn't made sense.
Medic is a very stressful role.
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On May 09 2009 17:20 Scamp wrote:
Hey you saved it. Cool beans.
It was that last question that clued me in that you really could be mafia. I suppose it could have just been a friendly question in order to get me thinking and posting but it seemed weird that you would just ask something like that. I kind of got the feeling it was "gauge the new player and if he's insightful then kill him quickly."
But even though you were mafia after all that may not have been the case anyway.
I really should have sent out more PMs and trusted my instincts. Turns out (after the fact, of course) that they were pretty good. Things just got so crazy and confusing that it became impossible to really find someone I felt I could trust. Even though I never protected a mafia I was unfortunate that the mafia never hit anyone I protected other than Pyrr who was double-hit and RoL who was hit when I was also hit. I would have PM-ed whoever I saved even though Qatol's explanation as to why I shouldn't made sense.
Medic is a very stressful role.
Yeah medic is a really hard role to play. 2 saves is incredible for a new player. Excellent work.
And I wasn't checking for insight tbh haha. At that point, Ver was doing the hitlists. I was just trying to get you active in the game since it was so inactive.
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You did a great job scamp  . Better than previous medics.
but..
Scamp protects malongo
Mafia family 1 hits
Camlito x2
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On May 09 2009 17:32 Camlito wrote:You did a great job scamp . Better than previous medics. but.. Scamp protects malongo Mafia family 1 hits Camlito x2
We were sooo happy when that went through haha. None of us read you as a veteran. If it makes you feel better, if I were a medic, you would have gotten a prot every cycle, especially early in the game!
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yea like they said, even getting 2 protections right is pretty damn good. At least your instincts seemed to be in the right direction.
And as a general idea, we dont need a town circle to win. You just need to know how to roleclaim. This doesn't mean you see some guy you think is legit and give up your role - that's generally a bad idea. You have discussions or whatever, hopefully public, and when you are certain there is no way the person can be mafia then maybe you roleclaim.
As for balance, this game was balanced. The 2 Mafia would have eventually had to kill each other at some point but the game just ended because of how lopsided it was looking. If the town had managed to kill even 2 more mafia no one would be complaining about balance. From the Mafia point of view they somewhat have to work together if the town is on their shit or else they will both be wiped out.
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Fusion:
I'm not blaming anyone. You know the old saying, "Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer." I was trying to use Qatol for information.
I knew the Town was fucked from Day 1. Hence, I didn't care if he knew my role. I was dead by Day 2 anyway unless the medics and DTs stepped forward (to me of course).
DTs were pivotal to my plan at first, yes. I won't deny that. From the outside, it looks like I was asking you guys to take a leap of faith. Risky but rewarding nonetheless. I wanted a core of trust and SOG's logic had to be taken out of the picture.
This goes back to L. Post game bragging? Plllease. Read over my posts again and tell me how I didn't have a good idea of what was up. Like I said before, no one trusted me from Day 1 for several reasons. One of them being I'm a dangerous player.
Likewise, I tried to approach a few players, but considering my previous history, they decided to remain silent.
Truth be told, I told Qatol I was planning on protecting Mynock instead of Ver (something I truly regret now because I would have been able to try and do something about it a lot sooner). Ver went from one extreme to another. He wasn't hard to miss.
Anyway, I look forward to the next game. It would be nice to be red for once.
As soon as I received his PMs. I knew I was dead. I was going to write him something along the lines of, "God damnit, you're fucking mafia," but I didn't have enough time. BC gave us no warning about the upcoming Day post, so bleh. Whatever!
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On May 09 2009 22:10 Ace wrote:
yea like they said, even getting 2 protections right is pretty damn good. At least your instincts seemed to be in the right direction.
And as a general idea, we dont need a town circle to win. You just need to know how to roleclaim. This doesn't mean you see some guy you think is legit and give up your role - that's generally a bad idea. You have discussions or whatever, hopefully public, and when you are certain there is no way the person can be mafia then maybe you roleclaim.
As for balance, this game was balanced. The 2 Mafia would have eventually had to kill each other at some point but the game just ended because of how lopsided it was looking. If the town had managed to kill even 2 more mafia no one would be complaining about balance. From the Mafia point of view they somewhat have to work together if the town is on their shit or else they will both be wiped out.
Ace is absolutely right. This game was perfectly balanced. Two things killed the town: its general inactivity and its nonsensical stupidity. You guys ignored very legitimate analysis and convictions until the very end (when it was far too late). I think if Ace had explained why Qatol was mafia, Qatol might have died earlier, but the fact that he lived as long as he did really speaks loudly about the town.
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I did explain why Qatol was mafia, I just tried to keep my posts really short this game . That time when BC was VI and people still wanted to lynch mikeymoo I made really long posts and people still didn't understand. meh x_x
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There was a lot of emotional based decision-making in this game. Good Job all hope to play another one soon . Maybe the town can win one!
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On May 09 2009 23:13 0cz3c wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 22:10 Ace wrote:
yea like they said, even getting 2 protections right is pretty damn good. At least your instincts seemed to be in the right direction.
And as a general idea, we dont need a town circle to win. You just need to know how to roleclaim. This doesn't mean you see some guy you think is legit and give up your role - that's generally a bad idea. You have discussions or whatever, hopefully public, and when you are certain there is no way the person can be mafia then maybe you roleclaim.
As for balance, this game was balanced. The 2 Mafia would have eventually had to kill each other at some point but the game just ended because of how lopsided it was looking. If the town had managed to kill even 2 more mafia no one would be complaining about balance. From the Mafia point of view they somewhat have to work together if the town is on their shit or else they will both be wiped out. Ace is absolutely right. This game was perfectly balanced. Two things killed the town: its general inactivity and its nonsensical stupidity. You guys ignored very legitimate analysis and convictions until the very end (when it was far too late). I think if Ace had explained why Qatol was mafia, Qatol might have died earlier, but the fact that he lived as long as he did really speaks loudly about the town.
This is so wrong people. The moment both mafias "found" eachother there was no more balance with these winning conditions. I mean to be "perfectly balanced" the game ended day 5, theres no way you can call this perfect balance even with the town inactive and not playing well.
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4492 Posts
On May 09 2009 23:13 0cz3c wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2009 22:10 Ace wrote:
yea like they said, even getting 2 protections right is pretty damn good. At least your instincts seemed to be in the right direction.
And as a general idea, we dont need a town circle to win. You just need to know how to roleclaim. This doesn't mean you see some guy you think is legit and give up your role - that's generally a bad idea. You have discussions or whatever, hopefully public, and when you are certain there is no way the person can be mafia then maybe you roleclaim.
As for balance, this game was balanced. The 2 Mafia would have eventually had to kill each other at some point but the game just ended because of how lopsided it was looking. If the town had managed to kill even 2 more mafia no one would be complaining about balance. From the Mafia point of view they somewhat have to work together if the town is on their shit or else they will both be wiped out. Ace is absolutely right. This game was perfectly balanced. Two things killed the town: its general inactivity and its nonsensical stupidity. You guys ignored very legitimate analysis and convictions until the very end (when it was far too late). I think if Ace had explained why Qatol was mafia, Qatol might have died earlier, but the fact that he lived as long as he did really speaks loudly about the town.
What? The game absolutely wasn't balanced. If BC didn't want to surprise us all with these 2 families, or at least told the Mafias from the get-go that they had to kill each other eventually, it would have been balanced. As it was tho, the Mafia took a very quick and tricky route: unite, and THEN ask BC if they have to kill each other (oops, too late for that now, we already know all the other mafia members, whatcha gonna do BC?). From there, BC had no choice anymore - if he says yes, Mafias break out a drama and end the game right there - BC can't have that. The other version is that of a lesser evil - let the Mafias unite and fuck the Town over, since Town won't find out about it anyway, until it's too late (and both Mafias and BC would just keep quiet about the whole incident). And that's what happened.
Not to say I wouldn't have exploited this hole the same if I was Mafia, but the kinda annoying part is that we didn't even know the rules we've been playing by. Town automatically assumed that the Mafias will have to work against each other eventually (so there shouldn't be that big of a coordination). The Mafias basically were watching it all, and knew it's not true, and no one ever said a thing. Not even BC. Not even at the very end, when we specifically asked it like 55 times. By that time I was only playing this game, because I was hoping Mafia will start killing each other soon. When that didn't happen on Night 4 either, it was way too obvious that we've been screwed over. The mass-voting couldn't have happened either if there basically wasn't a single Mafia with 2 godfathers.
As it stands, there is no winner of this round. There is only one loser, Town, and everyone who was playing with it.
Two Mafias is a good idea, and it can work very well, but really... Let all the players know what rules they're playing by before starting the game?
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oo I thought the Mafia knew they had to kill each other before hand?
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I think its clear that Malongo and Mynock share opinions in this case. For those that call this "perfect balance" lets make a small summary of the lynchs (the power of the town):
Day 1: Qatol Mayor, Inerpinept lynched.
Day 2: Multiple discussion, 3 people to lych nobody mafia, versatile lynched.
Day 3: Qatol get away saving his ass, Quickstriker lunched.
Day 4: Qatol annihilated.
Day 5: Town gets 2 mafia, inactivity kills town, mafia sway the votes GG.
I mean wheres the balance? Even with full town activity day 5 mafia could have easily sway the lynch, and in that point numbers were like 25 or so townies to 9 mafia. Assuming the game is "perfectly balanced" means town has to lynch forcefully day 2 or 3, and even then i doubt the result could have change. Lets suppose Qatol lynched day 3, then day 4 what? monoxide? quickstriker? we would have come to day 5 in exaclty the same position AT BEST with an extra mafia lynched. I really think calling the game balanced is nonsense, mafia won i have no trouble about that, they played well and the town bad. However this game was not balanced. Period.
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EPT
