|
On May 10 2009 05:43 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2009 05:27 Malongo wrote:On May 10 2009 05:20 Qatol wrote:On May 10 2009 05:03 Malongo wrote:
Ok im out of the this discussion. Really nobody really addresed the main point in my post, L and 0czec feel that im attacking mafia. Read the post. EVEN IF THE TOWN LYNCHED ANOTHER MAFIA THE RESULT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME. Please learn to read thi is disgusting. Im not evaluating who played better or what the town made wrong. The fact is what i posted in caps. If you cant discuss that ima stop now. So for town to get a chance has to kill AT LEAST 2 mafia by day 5. Stop acting like a inmature im discussing the balance not how did you play. Ok, so with 2 vigi hits, 5 lynches, and you probably should have been using 2 double lynches by day 5 (9 kills) you can't kill 2 mafia? I'm not saying anything about how I played. That is irrelevant right now. I'm just trying to ask you what you think would be balanced? How many mafia do you think the town should have to figure out by day 4? day 5? Personally, I think it should be at LEAST 3-4 by day 5. I just went back and checked BC's first game (which was pretty close). 4 mafia dead day 4, 5 on day 5. Do you think the town needs to work faster than that? Slower than that? You sure checked about checklists didnt you? AH and no millers and rolechecks first day. Honestly im replying to a wall. LETS WORK THIS WAY QATOL: 1 First day lynch is random based. The town has almost 0 chance to get a mafia even with a townie in the office. TRUE OR FALSE you reply please. 2 Days 2, 3, 4 and five the town got a mafia lynch TRUE OR FALSE 3 EVEN supposing that town got 2 mafia lynchs day 2 3 4 DID THE TOWN STAND A CHANCE DAY 5? TRUE or FALSE. I agree day 1 lynch is totally random. Town has approximately a 1 in 5 chance of getting a mafia. However I think it isn't unreasonable for the town to have killed at least 1 mafia with the day 2 lynch and/or the night 2 vigi hits. KP formula this game was funky, but the town HAS to decrease it decently early or they stand no chance. And that is how I think it should be. I argue that you are forgetting about vigi hits. Also you don't think it would have mattered if you had taken away a KP from us earlier? If you had killed say Ver day 2 and me day 3 (or vice versa)? Do you even know what that would have done to our bluesniping? Not to mention my family had about even odds of just putting in a hitlist on the other family. I realize that game had votechecks. Vigilantes also had 2 hits instead of 1. Notice I decreased the number of mafia I expected to catch by day 5 (the town had 5 and could have barely won if they had stayed active; I said I expect town to have caught 3-4 on our their meaning 4-5 dead mafia thanks to 2 families). Again, how many dead mafia do you think is reasonable by day 4 or day 5?
Honestly you didnt answer all my questions. Calling that the vigi hits balance the game is nonsense, one vigi failed other was killed before hit, thats part of the game not completly related to balance. If something vigis DONT want to send theyr hits early so calling balance there is not really fair for the disscusion. Please lets AGAIN think suppose ver was killed day 3 for a vigi well played, DID THE TOWN STAND A CHANCE DAY 5? And most importantly Day 5 we HAD 2 mafia but we didnt stand a chance to get the votes even with full activity. This is my last post. I dont want to keep this going just look and read oczec, L and ver responses, the only thing you are arguing is how well mafia sniped blues or how bad the town played, i really dont care.
|
On May 10 2009 04:40 L wrote:
Malongo,
if the town had another 3 active people with their heads out of their asses, the votes on day 2, 3 and 4 would have been different and we wouldn't have been able to pull a 2 mafia lynch and plop it onto 2 townies AND cut the double lynch. If the town didn't have multiple members trying to incriminate themselves by posting like retards and refusing to explain their wild accusations, voting would have been different too. Both versatile and ace played very poorly during day 2 which gave us a huge opening which we capitalized on.
The reason why it seems like things were so lopsided is because the vast majority of blues stuck their necks out and got raped. There were ZERO vigi hits on mafia, ZERO CK hits on mafia, a late start to double lynching and incredibly poor accuracy from town. Mafia teams were 5 people each: if you double lynched us correctly on that day 5 post, we would have dropped to 4kp, and been largely fucked if you followed that up with another successful double lynch. Needed more time to smoke out mafia? Doesn't seem like it due to all of these "lol i knew 3 mafia on day 2" posts we're getting.
Additionally, Qatol and I talked about having to kill the other family the moment he told me he called out Ver. When I was arguing that mafia would work together despite having to kill each other at the end, I wasn't talking out of my ass. I was actually giving you the exact reason why it would happen regardless of the end rules. Mafia having to kill each other at the end is irrelevant if they recognize what mafia have in prior games: More days means more clues. More clues means you can't hide forever. You NEED the other mafia's killing power to chop the town down to size.
I mean, go ahead and look at what happened each day as you listed it. Each were good plays by us and terrible plays by the town. Should we lose for playing near perfectly? Should we lose because the vast majority of your players decided to play footsie in PMs and got raped for it? According to you, the town should have had an equal chance to win despite a grand total of 4 members of the entire town actually putting in meaningful work. Sorry but that's not balance.
Get your fucking ego out if you want to discuss balance, should we lose? wtf?
|
On May 10 2009 05:59 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2009 05:43 Qatol wrote:On May 10 2009 05:27 Malongo wrote:On May 10 2009 05:20 Qatol wrote:On May 10 2009 05:03 Malongo wrote:
Ok im out of the this discussion. Really nobody really addresed the main point in my post, L and 0czec feel that im attacking mafia. Read the post. EVEN IF THE TOWN LYNCHED ANOTHER MAFIA THE RESULT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME. Please learn to read thi is disgusting. Im not evaluating who played better or what the town made wrong. The fact is what i posted in caps. If you cant discuss that ima stop now. So for town to get a chance has to kill AT LEAST 2 mafia by day 5. Stop acting like a inmature im discussing the balance not how did you play. Ok, so with 2 vigi hits, 5 lynches, and you probably should have been using 2 double lynches by day 5 (9 kills) you can't kill 2 mafia? I'm not saying anything about how I played. That is irrelevant right now. I'm just trying to ask you what you think would be balanced? How many mafia do you think the town should have to figure out by day 4? day 5? Personally, I think it should be at LEAST 3-4 by day 5. I just went back and checked BC's first game (which was pretty close). 4 mafia dead day 4, 5 on day 5. Do you think the town needs to work faster than that? Slower than that? You sure checked about checklists didnt you? AH and no millers and rolechecks first day. Honestly im replying to a wall. LETS WORK THIS WAY QATOL: 1 First day lynch is random based. The town has almost 0 chance to get a mafia even with a townie in the office. TRUE OR FALSE you reply please. 2 Days 2, 3, 4 and five the town got a mafia lynch TRUE OR FALSE 3 EVEN supposing that town got 2 mafia lynchs day 2 3 4 DID THE TOWN STAND A CHANCE DAY 5? TRUE or FALSE. I agree day 1 lynch is totally random. Town has approximately a 1 in 5 chance of getting a mafia. However I think it isn't unreasonable for the town to have killed at least 1 mafia with the day 2 lynch and/or the night 2 vigi hits. KP formula this game was funky, but the town HAS to decrease it decently early or they stand no chance. And that is how I think it should be. I argue that you are forgetting about vigi hits. Also you don't think it would have mattered if you had taken away a KP from us earlier? If you had killed say Ver day 2 and me day 3 (or vice versa)? Do you even know what that would have done to our bluesniping? Not to mention my family had about even odds of just putting in a hitlist on the other family. I realize that game had votechecks. Vigilantes also had 2 hits instead of 1. Notice I decreased the number of mafia I expected to catch by day 5 (the town had 5 and could have barely won if they had stayed active; I said I expect town to have caught 3-4 on our their meaning 4-5 dead mafia thanks to 2 families). Again, how many dead mafia do you think is reasonable by day 4 or day 5? Honestly you didnt answer all my questions. Calling that the vigi hits balance the game is nonsense, one vigi failed other was killed before hit, thats part of the game not completly related to balance. If something vigis DONT want to send theyr hits early so calling balance there is not really fair for the disscusion. Please lets AGAIN think suppose ver was killed day 3 for a vigi well played, DID THE TOWN STAND A CHANCE DAY 5? And most importantly Day 5 we HAD 2 mafia but we didnt stand a chance to get the votes even with full activity. This is my last post. I dont want to keep this going just look and read oczec, L and ver responses, the only thing you are arguing is how well mafia sniped blues or how bad the town played, i really dont care.
Without ver after day 3? Let's see.... iLoveKTF would have probably died a cycle or 2 later. Fishball was a 50/50 of dying at all. Scamp would not have died. The mafia would have also not killed 3 more players, almost all of whom were voting. I'm unsure which question I didn't answer. I guess did the town stand a chance if they had gotten another mafia sooner? Absolutely.
As far as vigis go, I see the role this way: A missed vigi hit is the same as a missed lynch. A vigi who dies without using his hit is the same as the town failing to use a double lynch. In my view you didn't miss 2 lynches (I won't even count my auto-lynch), you missed 3 because of Caller's failed hit. You didn't fail to double lynch once (day 3), you failed to double lynch twice because you lost Rage (who should have realized he was in trouble when Bockit flipped red and sog said he was suspicious).
You realize that if you had full activity that last day, the town would have won. I did the math. With the failed double lynch, mafia win 3-2. Without it, the town win like 10-0 (don't remember exactly the numbers, but the town win). That last lynch was actually a decently large risk because most of the mafia outed themselves.
Anyways, this debate is really getting nowhere. If anyone wants to continue it, PM me.
|
On May 10 2009 05:51 Mynock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2009 05:19 Ver wrote:
Guys, Qatol roleclaimed to me since he was on the verge of quitting from getting lied to repeatedly about what was going on and killing a mafia member when he was told he couldn't. If I wasn't mafia (although he had good reasons for thinking I was) the game would've been over right then. Please don't make up some phony conspiracy theories of how the mafia played so tricky allying first when they weren't supposed to. That's just what I said but it's phrased differently. The game would have ended right there, so BC patched things up so it isn't. Mafia went complaining to BC first, since they noticed it first, and got what they wanted. So you really think the game was meant to be played that way? Obviously not, since you disagree with BC's ways as well. BC should have made the two families completely separate, and actually that's what the Town always believed is the case. THE WHOLE GAME. EVERY goddamn lynch attempt was made with that in mind. This also goes to Qatol. You also used this misconception, and based all your defense on it. You knew the rules didn't work like that by then, because by that time BC told you the truth. Ver also knew, and he then came up with his own defense, which was ALSO based on how the two families would have to kill each other in the end. You were basically lying to the Town about the RULES of the game, even tho you guys were ready to throw it all when you felt that YOU were being lied to. Still, it's OK to deceive the Town in the same way, right? Qatol, you're saying Town played poorly by not lynching a mafia earlier? Town partly left you in office for all that time, because it figured you will at least fight the other Mafia. BC was watching all that, and never ever decided that maybe Town should actually know what they're playing. Hell, there might have been a surprise third faction of Vampires, how would we know? Yes, maybe BC lied to you guys for the first night, but he never told the truth to the Town for the WHOLE game. You had a slow start, Town was crippled from the beginning to the very end. Lying about in-game stuff is OK (hell, that's what this game is about, deception), lying about the RULES of the game, when you, in fact, know better, is pretty dirty.
^^Read this please. Stop talking about mafia hits town options/scenarios or whatnot. Just let us know the actual rules of the game please. Thats all I ask. If what Ver/Qatol is saying is really true and the two mafia families were designed just to handicap the mafia for the first few days, then fine. But please state that in the rules. If you tell us the actual rules of the game then the game is quite balanced. But we need to know the rules first. Very important.
Just look at some of the arguments about lynching Qatol on day 2 or was it 3? People were saying we should leave Qatol alive because the extra lynches would help us even if its against the other mafia family. If we knew the rules, maybe he wouldn't have lived???
|
Honestly guys, I see what your saying about the rules thing. However even knowing them beforehand I do not think the outcome of the game would have changed. Also it's hard to talk about the balance of the game without taking into account how the game was played because I seriously think if Qatol was lynched Day2/3 and another Mafia was caught this discussion wouldn't be going on for so long.
|
Regardless of whether or not it would have changed the outcome of the game, we need to know the rules. But seriously Qatol might have been lynched day 3 if we'd have known. He barely survived by 2-3 votes. Which isn't too hard to get once you point out the rules.
|
I don't know, I think some Townies generally still didn't realize Qatol was mafia ^_^. Even knowing there were 2 Mafia families what's the point of keeping him alive - he isn't gonna do what the town says anyway lol.
|
On May 10 2009 06:35 Incognito wrote:
Regardless of whether or not it would have changed the outcome of the game, we need to know the rules. But seriously Qatol might have been lynched day 3 if we'd have known. He barely survived by 2-3 votes. Which isn't too hard to get once you point out the rules.
Agreed. I think one lesson we can take away from this is everyone should know the rules from the start.
|
If the mafias had to kill each other then maybe. But thats not the point.
Point: Everyone should know the rules.
|
On May 10 2009 06:37 Ace wrote:
I don't know, I think some Townies generally still didn't realize Qatol was mafia ^_^. Even knowing there were 2 Mafia families what's the point of keeping him alive - he isn't gonna do what the town says anyway lol.
Sure I will. As long as the town wants to lynch a townie!
|
Malongo, you're just wrong. It's not even worth arguing; everything has essentially been pointed out. You're just wrong. Re-read posts. Re-read them again. (Re-read Ver's especially if you think that only the town was confused and thought it was at a disadvantage. The feeling was mutual; however, our hindsight is far clearer than yours, apparently.) You're just wrong. You still don't understand everything. I'm not sure if English is the problem here (we're not elucidating well enough), but you're wrong. Mafia had the full perspective on this, and we very well could have lost this.
Saying that you guys should have had a chance at Day 5 after you missed every lynch and vigi kill except Qatol is wrong. Just wrong. Not only are you missing other realities of the game (we had killed any useful roles by that times, so you're avoiding your previous logic, so you're wrong here), but you're also forgetting the balance here for the mafia. Imagine if we've lost 5-7 mafia by this time. Totally possible. Do we have a chance? Absolutely not. I don't think you're evaluating who played better. We're certainly not. Both sides know the answer to that question. No one was debating that. I'm arguing that the game was far more balanced than you think. The fact that you refuse to accept that, and the fact that you can't see that tells me that you're still deluded about the ultimate fate of the game.
You're assessing the end result of the game and the way it was played to prove that the game was not balanced. I guess you must be blind. We're not doing that. Not us, but you. At one point, we were at a severe disadvantage. At another, we were equal. This game was perfectly balanced; however, the repetitious circumstances allowed us to take the game in our favor. I'm not gloating about our win; I'm simply trying to bring you to reality. Saying that the town ought to win after five days of utter incompetence is as absurd as insinuating that the mafia should win after five days of sheer incompetence. And, just so you know, this game did have the absolute potential to go past five days. You're wrong again. See how balanced it was? Your own idea of what makes a game balanced WOULD apply in this instance. Thanks for verifying it in your own eyes (Qatol would have been lynched earlier, Pyrr wouldn't have made himself so conspicuous, town would have thought just a little, and the mafia would have been cut in half by day three/four. And at this time, the mafia would have been at a severe disadvantage.) [And then again, this balance, in your own terms, would also be very imbalanced for the mafia. Why, that's not fair. The game could be totally decided in the town's favor by the end of Day 4? In fact, the game could have been over after night 2 should mafia have eliminated each other...DUDE...DUDE...MORE MAFIA?]
Malongo, we're not taking "it personal." At least I'm not. I just see that you're plain wrong. You have misconceptions about the balance of the game, and to protect the balance of future games, I HAVE TO point it out.
The game doesn't have to be defined in the first four or five days. No, it shouldn't. But when you guys don't make a single intelligent decision, then, hell, it better be. Otherwise, I'd consider it imbalanced against the other side. (Again, this is not a boast about the way we played the game [it's irrelevant]; it's a discussion about the perfectly symmetrical balance of the game.)
Your latest post to Ver. Re-read his post again. "If town played perfectly with qatol as mayor." Do you see that? Do you see the word "perfectly"? Now here's what you said, "All im saying is: after mafia A found mafia B there was no chance for the town. Just look at the numbers. The town should have played almost a perfect game to get a chance." Do you see how he proved you wrong? Do you see it? Huh? Do you want me to point it out? Debunked your own point and you're refusing to acknowledge that? Sure, go for it. He's not even saying you had to play the perfect game; in fact, both we and you (I really hope you know by this time...) know that you didn't have to play a perfect game. He's just pointing out the utter absurdity of your claim.
So here are responses to your questions:
1. FALSE. Absolutely wrong. With a townie in office, the town has nearly an 18% chance to catch a mafia. That's pretty darn good, actually. With a mafia in office, there's a 9.6% to get a mafia. Wow, I'm liking these odds for the town. They're certainly not 0%. I'd take them. (Of course, you'll argue that the odds should be close to 50%. If you do, don't. Just don't argue about balance if you think that.) WAIT, WHAT? EVEN IF WE ELECT A MAFIA MAYOR MAFIA CAN DIE? NO WAY DUDE, I WOULD TOTALLY TAKE THAT IF I WERE PART OF THE TOWN. WOW THIS REALLY SUCKS FOR THE MAFIA.
2. TRUE. But only one. Qatol. When it VERY EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN MORE, and that very well should have been sooner. But that's your fault. Nothing to do with the balance of the game; you guys, as a whole, were bordering on incompetence.
3. Um. Yeah. Re-read the question. That's not a question to which I can answer "TRUE or FALSE." Sorry. Only a YES or NO can suffice. Will that be good enough for you, however? I guess it'll have to do. And, so you know, the town would have absolutely stood a chance. Ver more than adequately showed that. If you had gotten us on Day 2 and vigi'd one of us on Night 2, then we were in some serious trouble. Our mafia KP would have been cut for the following nights. (It also meant you had one less person to kill, and would have saved at the least 3 people; however, with the medics having an opportunity to save more, and with the mafia having to be specific about whom they killed, medics would have lived longer, so you would have been in pretty good shape to beat -- no, cream -- us.) Yeah....
You're not replying to a wall. It seems we are. Actually, I wouldn't be presumptuous if I said, "We are," as opposed to, "It seems we are."
|
On May 10 2009 06:39 Incognito wrote:
If the mafias had to kill each other then maybe. But thats not the point.
Point: Everyone should know the rules.
Yeah, I feel you're right.
|
How about this for a new game idea:
There are 50 townies and 10 mafia. KP of Mafia is 1 per person. The catch is, each mafia member is by themselves in the beginning.
Storyline:
A group of mafia sleeper agents woke to see their Godfather being executed publicly in the street. Unfortunately, they do not know who the others are.
Mafia:
Two powers:
1) May investigate one person and find their role (millers included)
2) May kill one person (including other mafia members) that night.
This does two things: A) it gives mafia pause from simply just 1a2a3aing their way through the active players. This also prevents mafia from simply just hiding and staying inactive, as they need to meet up with the other mafia. Obviously, once mafia gets organized, they will have massive hit potential. But this is counteracted by the fact that they aren't organized to begin with-thus, there is a chance that mafia may hit their own. Thus, they may choose to instead investigate people and find that person's role.
This also counteracts DT roleclaim confirmations and Vigilante claims.
However, there will still be Millers in the game. Thus, a group of organizing mafia may inadvertently invite a miller into their group. Add the fact that Millers now can be any town, blue OR green (the miller "red" appears over blue/green, but town is unaware of it) and mafia must now be more careful.
|
Caller, that sounds pretty interesting. I'd like to see how it plays out.
|
oh christ
mafia is serious business apparently o_o!!!
^ said that because(This was my first time at playing.) and..
Ok, maybe everyone just sucks/ignorant at mafia or its imbalanced, whatever.
But the biggest problem is, the majority of people are just first timers who don't really care/ have other things in their life, so you just need a list of people who actually want to play/commited.
It wouldn't matter if it was balanced then, because it would still be fun, and people would learn something ( with the mind games, ETC.)
Like, seriously some people that i won't list, on the town side, were complete assholes, that were still posting on TL and ignoring the mafia thread.
|
On May 10 2009 09:44 HeavOnEarth wrote:
oh christ
mafia is serious business apparently o_o!!!
^ said that because(This was my first time at playing.) and..
Ok, maybe everyone just sucks/ignorant at mafia or its imbalanced, whatever.
But the biggest problem is, the majority of people are just first timers who don't really care/ have other things in their life, so you just need a list of people who actually want to play/commited.
It wouldn't matter if it was balanced then, because it would still be fun, and people would learn something ( with the mind games, ETC.)
Like, seriously some people that i won't list, on the town side, were complete assholes, that were still posting on TL and ignoring the mafia thread.
That isn't true. The majority of the players this game are those who have played in at least one game, many of them more than 2-3. Some of us were really busy (I was one of them) and couldn't post that much. And apparently that warranted a potential night 1 hit on me, lol.
And why wouldn't you list them? If they're making the game worse why should we let them play?
|
Also i think another point everyone needs to take away from this, in terms of playing well:
Don't be such a retard with PM's if you are a blue.
|
On May 10 2009 06:13 Qatol wrote:
Fishball was a 50/50 of dying at all.
Why would you guys even consider me, a worthless townie as a target at all 
 Thread now.
People need to calm down a bit.
Everyone wants a good game here.
|
Get your fucking ego out if you want to discuss balance, should we lose? wtf?
Rofl.
If this game was balanced, the team that performed better should win. Correct? Town played horribly. Mafia played near perfectly. Mafia should win under those circumstances, and they did.
I think you need to take a step back, drink a cold one and relax before making another post here.
|
On May 10 2009 13:03 L wrote:Show nested quote +Get your fucking ego out if you want to discuss balance, should we lose? wtf? Rofl. If this game was balanced, the team that performed better should win. Correct? Town played horribly. Mafia played near perfectly. Mafia should win under those circumstances, and they did. I think you need to take a step back, drink a cold one and relax before making another post here.
Thats exactly the point. You are still arguing who played better look at your arguments. Im arguing about balance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
