EPTMafia VII - GG - Page 70
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Tricode
United States538 Posts
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On May 09 2009 04:30 Ace wrote: I agree Ver, but there were some really, really dumb plays this game. Maybe a lot of it happened because people just "dont know" how to look at the game overall and not just within their roles. Some people probably just didn't care enough to try. Either way some of the decisions this game were pretty bad. In the end I doubt it would have mattered much because Mafia played this round very well and nothing short of a miracle would have won it for the town (or a double backstab by both mafia  )ETA: I also loved the overall format of this game. I think 2 mafia families + CKs was good this time around. It gives the Mafia an element of uncertainty they have to deal with also ^_^ The only thing i can think for this format, reduce overall player count so mafia size is decent, or have low kp mafia with higher numbers.due to the low number on each side neither wanted to hit the other out of fear of being overwhelmed by town. CK win conditions should also be less annoying (mainly chuiu's) Ltt's i think were fine, maybe reduce the number of things he needs from 4 to 3, but overall his was fun  | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 09 2009 04:41 Tricode wrote: @ACE i think i should get a break for some of my bad decisions. It's my first time being townie and second game. I have other things i could say though =\ but i guess i shouldn't, don't want to start a stupid argument. Say what you have to say, but if it's your first game don't worry. All of us made bad plays this game so don't think the blame is solely on you. @BC: 3 sounds fine. But as a CK how did you set them up so they would have to figure out who their targets were? The document idea is really good. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On May 09 2009 04:30 Ace wrote: I agree Ver, but there were some really, really dumb plays this game. Maybe a lot of it happened because people just "dont know" how to look at the game overall and not just within their roles. Some people probably just didn't care enough to try. Either way some of the decisions this game were pretty bad. In the end I doubt it would have mattered much because Mafia played this round very well and nothing short of a miracle would have won it for the town (or a double backstab by both mafia )ETA: I also loved the overall format of this game. I think 2 mafia families + CKs was good this time around. It gives the Mafia an element of uncertainty they have to deal with also ^_^ I don't disagree that there were dumb plays. I just argue that dumb plays happen every round whether the town wins or not. See last game, the most stacked a game has ever been. The town had everything going for them, all the top players together, an inactive mafia, a dt and capable townie getting mayor/sheriff. And even with this there were a number of stupid moves by the town, among others, the day 1 clue analysis and the pika chu bandwagoning, the 15 pages of vigi discussion, and the questioning of behavior analysis. The mafia could have seriously taken advantage of any of this (like we did this game) but they didn't and the townie inner trust proved everyone important innocent right away and managed to control things much better than people did this game. Stuff like your amazing advice post (which needs to be stickied) can go a long way to helping to improve the overall level (because that's what needs to be done, as there are some very large gaps in player level). That's what we should be doing instead of just going 'town sucks' after every game the town loses. I don't have time for my own contribution right now but hopefully we can get a mafia forum as I think this will help people learn a lot. Btw just for clarification, I'm pretty sure that this game the 2 mafia families were more intended of a balancing factor to the strong mafia lineup. I,e one advantage of mafia is that they can be organized from the get go, but broken into two teams from the start and having to wait a day or two for full knowledge is a big handicap and more than counteracts that player advantage. I was never under the impression that we were supposed to kill (indeed Qatol was outright lied to in this point that he could even kill a mafia). The KP/numbers were obviously not balanced at all for an actual 2 mafia game. 2 mafia is interesting but I'm not sure if it's good for the game because it promotes hiding information which reduces activity. CK's are VERY interesting (although need a significant buff). For those who want the next game to happen, here's what we need to have done: 1) A specific, balanced format 2) A host 3) An answer to the problem of a veterans versus newbie situation. Ideally if we had two hosts we could run two games at once, an exclusive, <30-35 people veterans game, and a newbie game for everyone. I don't want to discriminate against new players since we need new players very badly since turnover is high but at the same time it's extremely hard to differentiate between say compX and SoG until a game has actually been played. The veterans game size must be very limited or activity will just be a big issue. Much of this game's activity problem was due to finals season but it was a huge problem last game too. My research got canceled (again ugh) so after this weekend I'll have a fair amount of time to work on these things too. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2009 04:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote: The only thing i can think for this format, reduce overall player count so mafia size is decent, or have low kp mafia with higher numbers.due to the low number on each side neither wanted to hit the other out of fear of being overwhelmed by town. CK win conditions should also be less annoying (mainly chuiu's) Ltt's i think were fine, maybe reduce the number of things he needs from 4 to 3, but overall his was fun LTTs weren't the greatest win conditions either. He basically had to hope that 4 random townies were killed with absolutely no way to find them except luck of the draw? His become a lot more fun when you have more than 1 CK scrambling for those documents. I suggest giving documents to CKs only. Basically the CKs have to take each other out to win. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On May 09 2009 04:47 Ace wrote: Say what you have to say, but if it's your first game don't worry. All of us made bad plays this game so don't think the blame is solely on you. @BC: 3 sounds fine. But as a CK how did you set them up so they would have to figure out who their targets were? The document idea is really good. The collecting objects idea was something my brother actually mentioned he did in larps when he was younger. As for how the CK found the people he needed. At first its infiltrating town to see if he can find them/rolecheck to find them. I think the rolecheck should be instituted a bit after he request the info at night but maybe still on same night (like 4-8 realtime hours). As for another way to find them, clues were left when someone took one from a townie, so vigi's or mafia could become his targets based on their hits. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2009 05:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote: The collecting objects idea was something my brother actually mentioned he did in larps when he was younger. As for how the CK found the people he needed. At first its infiltrating town to see if he can find them/rolecheck to find them. I think the rolecheck should be instituted a bit after he request the info at night but maybe still on same night (like 4-8 realtime hours). As for another way to find them, clues were left when someone took one from a townie, so vigi's or mafia could become his targets based on their hits. Yes, but you are basically hoping that everyone with a document is a target. There were players like dreamflower and mikeymoo who were unlikely to take a hit at all. And LTT didn't have a very big chance of finding them on his own. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2009 05:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote: eh, remember, he only talked to you, he never tried to infiltrate the town circle(to my knowledge) which increases his chance of finding people. But yeah, having ck's hunt down eachother could be interesting. Was there even a town circle? (I honestly don't know.) The only circle I stumbled upon (vivi + showtime) I wiped out. | ||
Mynock
4492 Posts
I'm thinking of a lot of roles here, but mainly they would be inner stories that add to the character played by a certain player so it promotes communication, both inner and public. For example: Role: Good Twin. Description: You are the good twin, and your brother has turned to the dark path and joined a mafia family. He is your evil twin, you have to find him, and persuade him to stop with his wicked ways. You have the ability "persuade", which you can use only once, and if you use it on the correct target (your evil twin), you will both leave the game (you win, your evil brother loses), if you use it on a wrong target, your ability will simply go to waste. You still win the game if Town wins. Every second night you will receive a little clue as to who your twin is. Role: Evil Twin. Description: You are the evil twin, and you have always despised your brother. You have to find him, and kill him. You better find him before he finds you. If he dies by a hit or lynch or any other means, you're safe from him, but your family still has to win the game for you to win. Every second night you will receive a little clue as to who your twin is. Things like that, basically. A little lore to the game. An otherwise green inactive Townie will have an initiative to play the game and participate in a quest. An otherwise silent Mafia will have to get a bit public and try to find his twin. etc... Obviously there's a lot of roles that can be made up, the key is of course balance, and keeping things interesting. If things are interesting, people are active. Also, 2 (rivaling!) Mafia families seems good. More people with roles, more blues to balance it out, more activity... | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On May 09 2009 06:22 L wrote: I think the best possible suggestion for our games would be to remove the office of mayor and just add more interesting blue roles. mayor was only in this game to stimulate day one posting haha | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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L
Canada4732 Posts
mayor was only in this game to stimulate day one posting haha You're such a tricky one | ||
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On May 09 2009 06:24 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Um that seems a little fancy and would get confusing. I guess that the Evil Twin thing could allow vets to live bit longer if the Evil Twin gets clues linking to newer players but ehh. And a lot of work for mod to keep track of all this but I would definitely play your game if you made one. If I made a game, I'd make lots of lore for every character. "You're an old granny living in an old house. You have an old gun hidden in your basement with which you will defend yourself. If a Mafia comes to kill you, you have a 25% chance to kill the Mafia with that gun and survive the attack." Or: "You're the Town's priest. During the course of the game you can choose to spend a night in the church. Not even the Mafia dares to touch you there, so you gain invincibility for that one night. Any hit on you will not go through, but you can not communicate with anybody during that night." Etc... Basically, every single character would be a part of the Town and have a unique distinction. Nothing really fancy, but something to set them apart from the others. Edit: obviously every Town needs a zombie... | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2009 06:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote: mayor was only in this game to stimulate day one posting haha Problem is that isn't how mayor turns out. At least one elected official is always a figurehead for the town when the roles are present. Especially this game since the 3x votes actually made a difference for like the first time ever. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
As such, no one shoudl roleclaim or really include mayor in how the town works unless they can do the right thing. Semiold and I last game never should have had the knowledge we did so quickly/ | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On May 09 2009 06:04 Mynock wrote: This should go into a separate thread, but I think we should try an all-roles game. And by that I don't necessarily mean that everyone should have a super-special-awesome role to be imba with, but that lots of people could have different win conditions. I'm thinking of a lot of roles here, but mainly they would be inner stories that add to the character played by a certain player so it promotes communication, both inner and public. For example: Role: Good Twin. Description: You are the good twin, and your brother has turned to the dark path and joined a mafia family. He is your evil twin, you have to find him, and persuade him to stop with his wicked ways. You have the ability "persuade", which you can use only once, and if you use it on the correct target (your evil twin), you will both leave the game (you win, your evil brother loses), if you use it on a wrong target, your ability will simply go to waste. You still win the game if Town wins. Every second night you will receive a little clue as to who your twin is. Role: Evil Twin. Description: You are the evil twin, and you have always despised your brother. You have to find him, and kill him. You better find him before he finds you. If he dies by a hit or lynch or any other means, you're safe from him, but your family still has to win the game for you to win. Every second night you will receive a little clue as to who your twin is. Things like that, basically. A little lore to the game. An otherwise green inactive Townie will have an initiative to play the game and participate in a quest. An otherwise silent Mafia will have to get a bit public and try to find his twin. etc... Obviously there's a lot of roles that can be made up, the key is of course balance, and keeping things interesting. If things are interesting, people are active. Also, 2 (rivaling!) Mafia families seems good. More people with roles, more blues to balance it out, more activity... We could edit this slightly to be like from The Departed/Infernal Affairs. You have the Rat vs. the Mole. Both are going after each other, but neither knows who the other is. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On May 09 2009 07:09 Mynock wrote: If I made a game, I'd make lots of lore for every character. "You're an old granny living in an old house. You have an old gun hidden in your basement with which you will defend yourself. If a Mafia comes to kill you, you have a 25% chance to kill the Mafia with that gun and survive the attack." Or: "You're the Town's priest. During the course of the game you can choose to spend a night in the church. Not even the Mafia dares to touch you there, so you gain invincibility for that one night. Any hit on you will not go through, but you can not communicate with anybody during that night." Etc... Basically, every single character would be a part of the Town and have a unique distinction. Nothing really fancy, but something to set them apart from the others. Edit: obviously every Town needs a zombie... Yeah I don't think we need random chances deciding game and you can't enforce the no talking rule very well. | ||
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Mynock
4492 Posts
On May 09 2009 08:21 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Yeah I don't think we need random chances deciding game and you can't enforce the no talking rule very well. It's not about random chances, it's about Mafia thinking whether it's safe to hit somebody or not. It' about promoting activity on both sides. Crazy old woman being active to provide an undesirable target for Mafia, Mafia trying to avoid hitting such a target. And we had silencer, you can enforce the no communication rule very easily. Don't think mechanics at this stage tho, it's just about the general ideas. | ||
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