EPTSo any green thinking he should die to take a hit for a blue player is just being stupid. It's more about about saving their own asses. If they actively contribute and then die that's different than just getting randomly picked off and claiming they've saved a blue. You're arguments as usual are way off.
TL Mafia 5 [Game Over] - Page 3
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So any green thinking he should die to take a hit for a blue player is just being stupid. It's more about about saving their own asses. If they actively contribute and then die that's different than just getting randomly picked off and claiming they've saved a blue. You're arguments as usual are way off. | ||
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On March 20 2009 08:06 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: So if someone gets protected by a medic, the medic and the person they protect know they are both good aligned right? I don't think vigis would use their one kill this early. Yes. This is why it's so crucial medics get lucky on the first night with protections. Since Vigilantes can't act tonight, if a medic stops a hit on Night 1 they know for sure their target is innocent. | ||
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Then it's a stretch to assume the Medics will protect the Vigilante AND the Mafia will hit him in the same night. The other problem also being is that what happens if the Vigi is a fake, but a real vigi targets him and he gets medic protected? x_x Lastly, for all this to work the Vigi hit has to go through and it has to hit red. If it kills an innocent we are back to square one. | ||
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Also remember the chances of a vigi hitting a medic target, especially if we assume everyone is paying attention is 0. The target would have to be someone highly suspected as you guys put it right? The only other way is if the Vigi did a random kill and the medic did a random protection and both were the same people - something you can't solve easily in this game. Medics are going to use Night 1 to figure things out, and from then IF their protted target is hit on any other night they can just retrace steps to figure if it was a random vigi hit or a Mafia hit. What you're suggesting puts too much out there for little gain. Really, no one needs to know publicly who's going to be hit by a Vigilante before it happens. sure he can send his PM in before the Mafia, but it doesn't mean shit unless the guy flips MAFIA. If it's innocent - we go right back to square one. @Qatol: The way the plan was worded, I thought it was a Vigi comes out, claims who he is going to hit and then go from there. If a Vigi hits someone and they flip Mafia, then they should come out and claim it and prove it. THIS is what I've been supporting - doing it in reverse. But ok let's go with your setup. Less active vigi: 1.The person calls out their hit. We will assume it is a target discussed in the thread, because it would be kinda silly for a vigi to just hit someone randomly. 2. There are now 2 situations that can arise. A) That target is mafia. In this situation, the vigi just added themselves to the mafia hit list, which means that someone else will not be hit. How is this a bad thing if the vigi doesn't tend to contribute anyways? B) That target is town. In this situation, the mafia has 2 options: a) They hit the target, negating the vigi hit. They have to kill off the vigi ASAP in this situation anyways, lest the vigi hit someone else. b) They let the hit go through. In this situation, they have a little more leeway, but they cannot afford to have that vigi still alive when the GF dies. Again, not a big deal if the vigi doesn't contribute much. 2A.) this is the only reward. If the target is Mafia and gets hit, nothing else matters from this point. 2Ba.) Regardless of which "option" the Mafia has - both fuck the town over. If they negate the Vigi hit you have to remember - The vigi once again goes unconfirmed. you keep forgetting that the longer this Vigi goes unconfirmed the more chances it is for him to mess up his hit. They do NOT have to kill the Vigi - in fact if I were Mafia and the town was on the verge of hitting an innocent I'd probably let the Vigi live to do it again. In this scenario he's just extra KP for the Mafia. If he was ever even close to hitting a Mafia we'd be back at situation 1. Since we're at situation 2, he's not - hence the Mafia have nothing to fear here. 2Bb.) Let the hit go through and the town is fucked. There is nothing positive about this scenario at all. It IS a big deal. Whether the GF lives or dies doesn't matter here: The Vigi used his only shot to kill a Townie. He can't be confirmed. What has the town gained? Whether he contributes or not isn't going to matter if this happened. He hasn't helped the town. @Pyrr: You can't be serious. Why would the medics be uneasy about protections on Night 2? Because vigis are active? So what? Like I said before, if people are paying attention it's not a big deal. If vigis just say they are going to kill someone after they pm their hit but don't say who they will hit, the mafia can't block it, the medics will know they can't 100% trust protection that night and can take necessary precautions, the mafia might take out the vigi but at least his hit will probably go through, and we don't have to put medics onto the vigi because they can't prove they are a vigi since they aren't saying who they will hit (if they survive somehow and hit a red I suppose they can prove it later and it might be obvious if vigis go one day at a time and all follow this). This would make the vigi essentially a suicide bomber though so if the vigi is a good player its probably not in their best interest. In any case, its all up to the vigi ultimately to decide what they will do. If the Vigis say they are going to kill someone, but don't say then what is the point of saying it? Now no one knows WHO he hit and it doesn't matter what anybody flips that night - he can just say "yea I hit that guy". Why would the Vigi do this? Which means the medics won't protect them as you say - which means the mafia won't have to kill him as you say - which means if he once again doesn't hit a mafia then what was the point in the first place. Get it now? | ||
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On March 20 2009 09:18 semioldguy wrote: If the Vigilante is going to come out and make it known that he made the hit after the fact what does he lose by instead saying so beforehand? The Mafia can't do anything about a Vigilante making a hit once it has already been PM'ed in. They cannot stop it at that point. The town, however, can do things about it. They can fuck it up if they don't know about it. This is ONLY true if the hit turns out to be MAFIA. The Mafia don't NEED to stop the hit if it hits an innocent. 1.) vigi PMs Chuiu for a hit 2.) Vigi roleclaims publicly to the town he just wanted to hit player X. 3.) Player X flips Mafia In this case, the Vigi is confirmed because no one could stop it unless medics just happened to prot the guy. Highly unlikely if it was a top suspect. But this is the likely scenario that you all keep ignoring: 1.)Vigi PMs Chuiu for a hit 2.) Vigi roleclaims publicly to the town he just wanted to hit player X. 3.) Player X flips Innocent What do you do now? | ||
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On March 20 2009 10:42 semioldguy wrote: No... now we have two vigi kills that aren't going to be messed with. How can the Mafia mess with a Vigi hit? Do they have secret Medics or something? No what I was saying was in reference to the Vigi calling his hit out but not PMing Chuiu beforehand. You cleared that up. That still leaves the possiblity of hitting an innocent. Basically what I really want to know is - what is the point of a vigi calling out his hit? It sounds like this is all for the "what if the medic" prots him case - which I've already illustrated is a rare occurrence. The town does NOT need to know what the Vigis are doing yet. Leave them be. Also I am not speaking of this in terms of the plan that someone else came up with earlier. Drop the plan.... none of us are talking about that as a plan anymore. How is the Vigilante claiming a target that flips innocent any more of a loss that a Vigilante that doesn't claim and hits the same innocent target? If anything it helps that they called out beforehand because now we can have a little more direction in clue searching whereas before we are just blind and may misinterpret a clue. For example... the Vigi calls out his hit beforehand. If the number of innocents dead is Mafia killpower plus one, we will know he is a vigilante if we know that all Vigilantes are calling their targets. If it is still equal to Mafia kill power and that target died, then we haven't lost any knowledge, but we have made the mafia kill one less person to put suspicion on a now green player. How is either of these situations always a loss? Because it's revealing information that the mafia do NOT need to have so early. Yes let's ignore the fact that 1 shot Vigi that kills an innocent can't be confirmed because he has no other shot to confirm his innocence. Let's also forget that once he gets mixed up in the clues and has no codename attached he can be easily pinned as Mafia because ding - he can't be confirmed innocent! So back to the original point, why are we doing this? There are few blue roles this game and the mafia doesn't need to know many of them to win this game. Look at the entire game as a whole and I think you'd see why revealing Vigis is so blatantly a death trap: There are only 4 medics. Sheriff can't lock anyone up on Night 1. Vigis can't act until Night 2 and get 1 shot (this is according to what Qatol told me in PM even though it doesn't say so in Chuiu's OP. What does this all mean? All veteran players are sitting ducks. It's impossible to protect everyone night 1 and there's a very high chance a blue or two is going to die on the first night. Sheriff can't do anything about it and the Mafia don't have to worry about Vigis yet. Now do you see the problem? If we reveal Vigilantes the Mafia get the added bonus of not only sniping vets but cherry picking how to counteract the Vigilante. The second set of clues yet isn't up and if you throw Vigis in there it's just going to be a mess. There isn't going to be any direction in searching for clues because you don't even have enough clues yet to compare what you might get yet. It's pointless. They do NOT need to be known. Period. Secondly let's assume your second situation happened. If the KP is 6 and there are 7 deaths how does that prove the Vigi that claimed hit the target? It doesnt because you don't know if any other vigis acted either. Or what happens in the case where there are only 6 death and innocent dies that the Vigi called out but you didn't know that a medic stopped a mafia hit? You don't. You just said it yourself - you stopped 1 Mafia KP to put suspicion on a potential green, except you didn't stop the Mafia KP. If an innocent dies during the night the Mafia would gladly have it come from the Vigi because really, who cares how it happened? An innocent died. You've just given the Mafia the advantage of added confusion in the town now having to figure out if this guy is legit. Yes, the target would have to be highly suspected, which means that Medics likely won't be on those players anyway... however there is another role that may target those players with their abilities and then we would be wasting time and that player's ability. Which goes all the way back to what I said very early about anything involving confirming a Vigilante this way - you'd be involving too much time for too little gain. Why bother? What you're suggesting puts too much out there for little gain. Really, no one needs to know publicly who's going to be hit by a Vigilante before it happens. sure he can send his PM in before the Mafia, but it doesn't mean shit unless the guy flips MAFIA. If it's innocent - we go right back to square one. Putting too much out there? What are we putting out there exactly? Information for the town that the Mafia can't really do anything about unless it also helps us? How is the target claim any more of a loss than a Vigilante who doesn;t and teh target still flips over innocent? [/QUOTE] Read what I said above about looking at the game as a whole. the Mafia can do something about it. It's more than this order of operations thing - if the guy doesn't flip red it is OVER. The Mafia can play the card any number of ways and really just ask yourself if you like giving the Mafia options. I don't. | ||
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On March 20 2009 12:32 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote: dreamflower, i like the idea of betrayal regarding the man that helped Chuiu up and then stabbed him. Why would Chuiu, the sheriff and hardened crime fighter, accept the help up from a criminal? It could be someone he recognized or knew that betrayed him by siding with the mafia. So we should keep an eye in the day posts for someone that kills in a deceitful way, by tricking his victims into thinking he is going to help them. I suggested a possible clue link from the 4th mafia that stayed behind, waiting for Incognito, to the name "Lurker." It sort of fits, but I want to bring it up again so others can see it. Also: what kind of person could run with their hands behind their head and also grab a gun and throw it to the side? Perhaps someone who is very "Versatile." It's possible but i don't think Chuiu usually writes clues like that. I'd imagine that mafioso to be hinting towards some kind of animal, like a monkey, or someone with multiple appendages. If it helps Versatile is also synonymous with being ambidextrous. However for both their hands to be behind their head, and then grab something suggests another pair of hands doesn't it? | ||
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I think what we can gather from it are two things: 1.) Mafia is definitely active if we assume RoL was really afk. That means some of them are reading the thread and updating everyone else accordingly. If we go with this idea, it's best to check who posted around the time SoG revealed his lynch like you said. 2.) RoL was active and feigned inactivity. Let's go with the idea that once they are caught they pop out the woodworks all of a sudden. This means their are some mafia laying low. But RoL is usually active so why would he go against his normal behavior? If so, is there any other suspicious person that is really playing very opposite their normal abilities? My guess would be to look for someone who is usually behind the scenes and quiet that's posting more than they normally would. | ||
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 So now will you guys listen to that post I made way, way back before? | ||
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On March 21 2009 19:50 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I don't get it. Why would a bum collect ticket stubs? To me it sounded like somebody coming out of a movie theater or a play x_x edit: Scara delete that because it could be game breaking info | ||
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I would have rather have the town discussed who deserved to be jailed ahead of time, as we aren't sure I'd be successfully hit tonight. There's still a major piece of information missing for me to make a conclusion and for that to happen I'll need to know if any medics stopped a hit last night. I don't need for the medics to confirm this, I'd rather have the TARGET confirm it. As in, if you were hit last night and got a PM saying you survived publicly claim it asap. This doesn't hurt the town at all because obviously Mafia already know who they tried to hit. Their are no Veteran roles so if you didn't die you just had to be protected. Let the town know as soon as possible. | ||
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