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On March 18 2009 05:16 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:11 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:08 Caller wrote:
Here's an idea:
It involves sacrificing a vigilante, but the vigilante will be able to use their kills.
A Vigilante pms a trusted townsperson that he is a vigilante and will make a hit on X. After night, if the hit on X goes through and it's not a mafia, the vigilante roleclaims and uses the proof of the hit. Then, Sheriff incarcerates him and everybody pms him stuff. Then he can help to organize town and get it together, at which point the day after, when he is no longer protected, he can find a successor for the town circle (preferably a townie) and use his last hit that night. Umm the mafia can do this just as easily as a vigi can. The only way this works is if the vigi hits red. Not even that works... couldn't the Mafia just hit one of their own? The only way this would work is if the Mafia uses their full kill power and the Vigilante hit goes somewhere other than one of the Mafia hits. Mafia could just use one less hit though if we try to do this and it wouldn't necessary lower their effective kill power since the Vigilante is killing someone possibly at random. The Mafia then get the benefit of one less Vigilante being able to affect them later in the game.
Nope it doesn't even help if the mafia use all their hits. Who is to say that that vigi is the only one acting that night? I don't think we can really do anything to confirm a vigi at this point. This is why I think BC's medic/DT/experienced player plan is better.
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On March 18 2009 05:08 Caller wrote:
Here's an idea:
It involves sacrificing a vigilante, but the vigilante will be able to use their kills.
A Vigilante pms a trusted townsperson that he is a vigilante and will make a hit on X. After night, if the hit on X goes through and it's not a mafia, the vigilante roleclaims and uses the proof of the hit. Then, Sheriff incarcerates him and everybody pms him stuff. Then he can help to organize town and get it together, at which point the day after, when he is no longer protected, he can find a successor for the town circle (preferably a townie) and use his last hit that night.
And you realize that vigis only have 1 hit, right?
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United States7488 Posts
On March 18 2009 05:23 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:16 semioldguy wrote:On March 18 2009 05:11 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:08 Caller wrote:
Here's an idea:
It involves sacrificing a vigilante, but the vigilante will be able to use their kills.
A Vigilante pms a trusted townsperson that he is a vigilante and will make a hit on X. After night, if the hit on X goes through and it's not a mafia, the vigilante roleclaims and uses the proof of the hit. Then, Sheriff incarcerates him and everybody pms him stuff. Then he can help to organize town and get it together, at which point the day after, when he is no longer protected, he can find a successor for the town circle (preferably a townie) and use his last hit that night. Umm the mafia can do this just as easily as a vigi can. The only way this works is if the vigi hits red. Not even that works... couldn't the Mafia just hit one of their own? The only way this would work is if the Mafia uses their full kill power and the Vigilante hit goes somewhere other than one of the Mafia hits. Mafia could just use one less hit though if we try to do this and it wouldn't necessary lower their effective kill power since the Vigilante is killing someone possibly at random. The Mafia then get the benefit of one less Vigilante being able to affect them later in the game. Nope it doesn't even help if the mafia use all their hits. Who is to say that that vigi is the only one acting that night? I don't think we can really do anything to confirm a vigi at this point. This is why I think BC's medic/DT/experienced player plan is better.
The other Vigis would just not use their hits on the same night obviously (they are on the side of the town after all, they would have no reason to screw up the plan).
Though it still would be risky for other reasons already stated. Which is why I also like BC's plan better than this one.
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United States7488 Posts
I still think Vigilantes should just call out their hits right before they send them in.
They only get one hit, so if they get killed we didn't lose a special role. It makes sure the medics don't protect the person the vigilante is hitting so the medics don't accidentally reveal themselves to someone who may be Mafia. If a Mafia tries to fake as a vigilante the numbers will eventually not add up since all Vigilantes should be calling themselves out at some point.
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On March 18 2009 05:28 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:23 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:16 semioldguy wrote:On March 18 2009 05:11 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:08 Caller wrote:
Here's an idea:
It involves sacrificing a vigilante, but the vigilante will be able to use their kills.
A Vigilante pms a trusted townsperson that he is a vigilante and will make a hit on X. After night, if the hit on X goes through and it's not a mafia, the vigilante roleclaims and uses the proof of the hit. Then, Sheriff incarcerates him and everybody pms him stuff. Then he can help to organize town and get it together, at which point the day after, when he is no longer protected, he can find a successor for the town circle (preferably a townie) and use his last hit that night. Umm the mafia can do this just as easily as a vigi can. The only way this works is if the vigi hits red. Not even that works... couldn't the Mafia just hit one of their own? The only way this would work is if the Mafia uses their full kill power and the Vigilante hit goes somewhere other than one of the Mafia hits. Mafia could just use one less hit though if we try to do this and it wouldn't necessary lower their effective kill power since the Vigilante is killing someone possibly at random. The Mafia then get the benefit of one less Vigilante being able to affect them later in the game. Nope it doesn't even help if the mafia use all their hits. Who is to say that that vigi is the only one acting that night? I don't think we can really do anything to confirm a vigi at this point. This is why I think BC's medic/DT/experienced player plan is better. The other Vigis would just not use their hits on the same night obviously (they are on the side of the town after all, they would have no reason to screw up the plan). Though it still would be risky for other reasons already stated. Which is why I also like BC's plan better than this one.
Except there is no way to coordinate the vigis other than publicly announcing "a vigi will be using his hit tonight." That gives the mafia too much leeway.
Off topic: Your name makes me sad. It makes me feel so old!
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
Can mafia target their own this game?
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United States7488 Posts
We both agree it isn't a good plan that has too many loopholes for the mafia to know what we are doing and act in a way that tricks us :p
Off topic: You're only 11 days older than me.... hardly beyond semiold at all 
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On March 18 2009 05:32 semioldguy wrote:
I still think Vigilantes should just call out their hits right before they send them in.
They only get one hit, so if they get killed we didn't lose a special role. It makes sure the medics don't protect the person the vigilante is hitting so the medics don't accidentally reveal themselves to someone who may be Mafia. If a Mafia tries to fake as a vigilante the numbers will eventually not add up since all Vigilantes should be calling themselves out at some point.
I disagree. If the vigis do that, it just gets them killed. The mafia can just hit the same target and mess with the clues (which are important this game). And if the mafia hit the vigi first, the town loses the hit. Vigis should hitclaim in private. Possibly with an elected role, better still with a confirmed townie.
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United States7488 Posts
On March 18 2009 05:36 ahswtini wrote:
Can mafia target their own this game?
Mafia - Your goal is to eliminate everyone else in the town. Your ability, as a group, is killing off whomever you decide on at night and knowing the role of each other player in the mafia. You may not kill other mafia. Mafia killing power is decided after signups are closed and will be shown next to the mafia count in the player count lists.
Apparently they cannot kill each other off.
Still not a very solid plan imo, not until we can confirm that someone is Mafia anyway..
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United States7488 Posts
On March 18 2009 05:39 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:32 semioldguy wrote:
I still think Vigilantes should just call out their hits right before they send them in.
They only get one hit, so if they get killed we didn't lose a special role. It makes sure the medics don't protect the person the vigilante is hitting so the medics don't accidentally reveal themselves to someone who may be Mafia. If a Mafia tries to fake as a vigilante the numbers will eventually not add up since all Vigilantes should be calling themselves out at some point. I disagree. If the vigis do that, it just gets them killed. The mafia can just hit the same target and mess with the clues (which are important this game). And if the mafia hit the vigi first, the town loses the hit. Vigis should hitclaim in private. Possibly with an elected role, better still with a confirmed townie.
Can't you just PM your role ability during the day? It wouldn't take affect until night time, but it would essentially be the first thing done. As long as you send that PM before you make the role claim your hit should go off first, before any Mafia can order a kill on you. If the mafia decide to hit the same person then they are wasting one of their kill power.
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On March 18 2009 05:41 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:39 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:32 semioldguy wrote:
I still think Vigilantes should just call out their hits right before they send them in.
They only get one hit, so if they get killed we didn't lose a special role. It makes sure the medics don't protect the person the vigilante is hitting so the medics don't accidentally reveal themselves to someone who may be Mafia. If a Mafia tries to fake as a vigilante the numbers will eventually not add up since all Vigilantes should be calling themselves out at some point. I disagree. If the vigis do that, it just gets them killed. The mafia can just hit the same target and mess with the clues (which are important this game). And if the mafia hit the vigi first, the town loses the hit. Vigis should hitclaim in private. Possibly with an elected role, better still with a confirmed townie. Can't you just PM your role ability during the day? It wouldn't take affect until night time, but it would essentially be the first thing done. As long as you send that PM before you make the role claim your hit should go off first, before any Mafia can order a kill on you. If the mafia decide to hit the same person then they are wasting one of their kill power.
Yeah you're right. The only reason I can think of other than that is maybe the mafia will be able to have you hit their targets for them. There is a chance that you both will want to hit the same player, in which case declaring publicly will let them avoid that hit.
Regardless, I think we agree this is a weak plan at best. Shall we get back to punching holes in BC's plan and/or creating a different one?
EDIT:
First version didn't really make any sense.....
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United States7488 Posts
Found the part:
A special note on roles: All roles must be used at night and only the Detective clue check ability and Medic ability may be used on Day 1. Roles may be declared before night but they will not happen until night. Sheriff and Mayor will hide the roles of the elected players so that a Detective role check will show them as Sheriff/Mayor and nothing else.
So the Vigilante would be able to declare his role action during the day, then after declaring he can publicly announce and there would be no way for Mafia to get their hit on the Vigilante first.
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a few of the people posting ideas are clearly trying to trick the mafia into making a bad move. this much is obvious. if i noticed this, then certainly the mafia does as well. which is probably why they aren't posting.
in most games, the mafia are either actively trying to get elected, or are in the back trying not to attract attention. The later is the case for this game. There is very little bandwagoning and lots of strategic talk. Mafia are just watching at this point.
Which tells us that:
quatol
caller
bw
semioldguy
pyrr
bloddycobbler
are all very likely innocent.
i also know a blue role-- they'd been hinting at it for a while in this thread (prolly subconsciously-- even more proof of their innocence). i doubt anybody else has even picked up on it. I'll PM them to let them know to be more cautious.
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Canada7170 Posts
On March 17 2009 23:28 fusionsdf wrote:
# I vote for Pyrrhuloxia
He has the soundest clue analysis by far. This is a much better way to choose than what someone did last game/what they say they will do this game.
Its much harder for a mafia to fake a good clue analysis (but still possible) than it is to just fake the town out by saying things like "I was a good townie last time!" ""I'm dedicated!"
I'm not going to tell everyone how to vote, but I would suggest it be done on clue analysis.
I'm going to agree with this.
#I vote for Pyrrhuloxia
On another note, I've quickly skimmed through some of these plans, and it seems that detectives checking someone out may be foiled by the Miller role? Correct me if I'm wrong, it's one of those "wake up to 5 new pages and can't be bothered yet" things that comes with the game.
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United States7488 Posts
On March 18 2009 05:45 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:41 semioldguy wrote:On March 18 2009 05:39 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:32 semioldguy wrote:
I still think Vigilantes should just call out their hits right before they send them in.
They only get one hit, so if they get killed we didn't lose a special role. It makes sure the medics don't protect the person the vigilante is hitting so the medics don't accidentally reveal themselves to someone who may be Mafia. If a Mafia tries to fake as a vigilante the numbers will eventually not add up since all Vigilantes should be calling themselves out at some point. I disagree. If the vigis do that, it just gets them killed. The mafia can just hit the same target and mess with the clues (which are important this game). And if the mafia hit the vigi first, the town loses the hit. Vigis should hitclaim in private. Possibly with an elected role, better still with a confirmed townie. Can't you just PM your role ability during the day? It wouldn't take affect until night time, but it would essentially be the first thing done. As long as you send that PM before you make the role claim your hit should go off first, before any Mafia can order a kill on you. If the mafia decide to hit the same person then they are wasting one of their kill power. Yeah you're right. The only reason I can think of other than that is maybe to allow the mafia to hit your targets for you. There is a chance that you both will want to hit the same player, in which case declaring publicly will let them avoid that hit. Regardless, I think we agree this is a weak plan at best. Shall we get back to punching holes in BC's plan and/or creating a different one?
I'm saying that this should be added to his plan... not trying to confirm through Vigilantes, but what do they have to lose by naming their hit?
Pros:
- Medics don't block them
- Mafia can't easily roleclaim Vigilante if all Vigilantes hold to this rule
- Keeps all of the clues we look for to be on Mafia members only
Cons:
- Mafia may have wanted to hit that person (but this is unlikely as the Vigilante should only try to hit prime suspects and the mafia wouldn't want to kill someone with a lot of suspicion if that person was innocent anyway)
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United States7488 Posts
On March 18 2009 05:48 mikeymoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2009 23:28 fusionsdf wrote:
# I vote for Pyrrhuloxia
He has the soundest clue analysis by far. This is a much better way to choose than what someone did last game/what they say they will do this game.
Its much harder for a mafia to fake a good clue analysis (but still possible) than it is to just fake the town out by saying things like "I was a good townie last time!" ""I'm dedicated!"
I'm not going to tell everyone how to vote, but I would suggest it be done on clue analysis. I'm going to agree with this. #I vote for PyrrhuloxiaOn another note, I've quickly skimmed through some of these plans, and it seems that detectives checking someone out may be foiled by the Miller role? Correct me if I'm wrong, it's one of those "wake up to 5 new pages and can't be bothered yet" things that comes with the game.
We have a plan to know when role checking the Miller.
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On March 18 2009 05:26 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:08 Caller wrote:
Here's an idea:
It involves sacrificing a vigilante, but the vigilante will be able to use their kills.
A Vigilante pms a trusted townsperson that he is a vigilante and will make a hit on X. After night, if the hit on X goes through and it's not a mafia, the vigilante roleclaims and uses the proof of the hit. Then, Sheriff incarcerates him and everybody pms him stuff. Then he can help to organize town and get it together, at which point the day after, when he is no longer protected, he can find a successor for the town circle (preferably a townie) and use his last hit that night. And you realize that vigis only have 1 hit, right?
regardless, it doesn't effect the plan that much XD
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 18 2009 05:48 mikeymoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2009 23:28 fusionsdf wrote:
# I vote for Pyrrhuloxia
He has the soundest clue analysis by far. This is a much better way to choose than what someone did last game/what they say they will do this game.
Its much harder for a mafia to fake a good clue analysis (but still possible) than it is to just fake the town out by saying things like "I was a good townie last time!" ""I'm dedicated!"
I'm not going to tell everyone how to vote, but I would suggest it be done on clue analysis. I'm going to agree with this. #I vote for PyrrhuloxiaOn another note, I've quickly skimmed through some of these plans, and it seems that detectives checking someone out may be foiled by the Miller role? Correct me if I'm wrong, it's one of those "wake up to 5 new pages and can't be bothered yet" things that comes with the game.
You are correct about Millers. However, there isn't really anything that can be done about it. We have to treat millers as mafiosos early on at least.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 18 2009 05:50 semioldguy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2009 05:45 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:41 semioldguy wrote:On March 18 2009 05:39 Qatol wrote:On March 18 2009 05:32 semioldguy wrote:
I still think Vigilantes should just call out their hits right before they send them in.
They only get one hit, so if they get killed we didn't lose a special role. It makes sure the medics don't protect the person the vigilante is hitting so the medics don't accidentally reveal themselves to someone who may be Mafia. If a Mafia tries to fake as a vigilante the numbers will eventually not add up since all Vigilantes should be calling themselves out at some point. I disagree. If the vigis do that, it just gets them killed. The mafia can just hit the same target and mess with the clues (which are important this game). And if the mafia hit the vigi first, the town loses the hit. Vigis should hitclaim in private. Possibly with an elected role, better still with a confirmed townie. Can't you just PM your role ability during the day? It wouldn't take affect until night time, but it would essentially be the first thing done. As long as you send that PM before you make the role claim your hit should go off first, before any Mafia can order a kill on you. If the mafia decide to hit the same person then they are wasting one of their kill power. Yeah you're right. The only reason I can think of other than that is maybe to allow the mafia to hit your targets for you. There is a chance that you both will want to hit the same player, in which case declaring publicly will let them avoid that hit. Regardless, I think we agree this is a weak plan at best. Shall we get back to punching holes in BC's plan and/or creating a different one? I'm saying that this should be added to his plan... not trying to confirm through Vigilantes, but what do they have to lose by naming their hit? Pros: - Medics don't block them - Mafia can't easily roleclaim Vigilante if all Vigilantes hold to this rule - Keeps all of the clues we look for to be on Mafia members only Cons: - Mafia may have wanted to hit that person (but this is unlikely as the Vigilante should only try to hit prime suspects and the mafia wouldn't want to kill someone with a lot of suspicion if that person was innocent anyway)
Ah. Agreed. I just didn't see what you were getting at. This is what I get for thinking about eating my sugar cookies without actually eating them and then trying to have a coherent discussion!
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On March 18 2009 05:56 Qatol wrote:
You are correct about Millers. However, there isn't really anything that can be done about it. We have to treat millers as mafiosos early on at least.
i disagree. i think the difference between mafia and millers can be determined by their actions and their post content.
i think this is a game about people, not logical strategies.
find me someone who shows up red during an investigation-- a basic post and personality analysis can tell you if you got the right person or not. the signs of people lying can be detected, even over the ether.
this is a factor i think a lot of people are underestimating.
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EPT
