EPTSweet Summer Mafia - Page 21
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 14 2024 16:01 Mocsta wrote: I guess I thought AlphaZero's stance on sandroba was pretty clear, but maybe I'm somehow the only one? I have a really hard time thinking about this as AlphaZero's fault instead of the rest of yours though, tbh. Unless that's not what you're saying, I'm a little confused because for the first 2/3 of the post you seem to be saying that AlphaZero is scummy because he failed to communicate his view on flipped mafia sandroba in a way that others can understand, and in the last 1/3 you seem to be saying that his play is too clean and that makes it look fake. I guess I'm just not sure which one it is, or is it both? But they seem a little mutually exclusive, no?damn right its a reason to be suspicious of anyone whose words dont match behaviours. that applies in real-life and in this game we call mafia. we all saw in d1 how calculated alphazero can be with his approach to [b]command[/b[ attention. the expectations for words and behaviour *should* be higher for az than in comparison to for example slam its inexcusable that a player who command attention can have multiple people misread his intentions in such a push-pull way. Again, i stress this is not the same as me. with me, people do not understand how i connect A to Y (chose now to right Z for AZ lol) And yeah, i tsbecause clearly i seem to skip every letter inbetween and go ta-da I'm not accusing AlphaZero of that at all. I am accusing him that the pathway from A to B to C is too clean, meticulous and curated Thats not town play. Also, I really wouldn't recommend sheeping me, I have no idea what's what. You have been much more present and involved than I have for a while now, trust yourself. You're more than capable, you've got this. Complete side note but... what if something stupid happened, like sandroba saw his role PM and was like, "this sucks, I don't want to play as mafia" so he went to his mafia chat and was like, "hey guys I don't want to play as mafia, I'm gonna do next to nothing, just bus me" and then rsoultin busses him and we're so bad that we still don't lynch him and eventually sandroba flips and there are a lot of associative reasons to townread mafia members, just because sandroba didn't want to play as mafia? I don't mean to say that this is particularly likely, but I'd also say it's far from impossible, no? Maybe it's just me being bad at associate reads but I'd much, much, much rather read people mostly based on their own play. I just think there are so many fewer ways to screw it up. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
##vote Koshi | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 14 2024 16:18 AlphaZero wrote: Hey, can't argue with results!(...) you have literally implied almost the whole game could be mafia at this point, is this like a strat to quote yourself and show you were right when literally anyone flips mafia? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 09 2024 16:40 Koshi wrote: Yeah we lynch sandroba->Mocsta (->Koshi) -> marv On June 09 2024 17:00 Koshi wrote: I am 100% convinced you are mafia. But I will lynch you last because your filter is huge. Sandroba and Mocsta are both mafia and I think we agree on that. On June 09 2024 17:00 Koshi wrote: This is just a random thing I thought of a while ago, but can you explain this?So we can lynch them first and then battle it out. Let's imagine for a moment that you have transcended the bounds of possibility and were right on all these reads. How then, do you presume to lynch mafia!sandroba and mafia!Mocsta and go into a showdown with mafia!marvellosity, after you called out the entire mafia team three days previously, and not somehow get night killed along the way? Or is this whole thing just fake? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 14 2024 16:21 Koshi wrote: Hey, free townreads! Come and get them Yes. I think dmb is mafia. Anybody who is with me early on this is town.  | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 14 2024 16:24 Koshi wrote: Not my point though. I'm saying that I don't understand how you could have made these posts at this time. You're planning out a future that just isn't possible from a town perspective.Exavtly. I already said it once. If it is Mocsta why am I not dead yet. Then rayn just insulted everybod and their mothers iirc. But it isnt Mocsta. It is sandroba dmb and a mystery man | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 14 2024 16:28 Koshi wrote: Sure, if you conveniently ignore the fact that mafia would just night kill you.Hmmm? Sure is possible. I think 3 people are mafia, I think who is the easiest to kill first, then repeat 2 times. It makes me wonder if you are mafia and you came up with the people you wanted to push and then this was natural from your mindset, since mafia don't really have to worry about getting shot? You can't seriously tell me you are town and expected to lynch three mafia in a row without getting shot first? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 14 2024 16:47 Mocsta wrote: Will think about this.you've made your point very clear and I do agree. In that regard, slam/dmb i just dont know how to read. removing any associations, dmb play this game makes me want to lynch her which is what im finding hard to reconcile, as what i recall are her tunnel focuses have not resolved. again, removing associations, i find AZ scummy as fuck. yes, you've been really good to highlight to you dont see what im seeing. i dunno, could i be tunneled? Maybe, i dont think i should feel the way i do about another townie though. i dont mean to be disrespectful, its possibly a life experience thing but thats way too broad an assumption? i dunno. as im not really sure how to describe it further without resulting in accusations that could genuinely be insulting and are not intended as such. i dont know what you mean by fault? my distillation of how az is playing? Again, i cant figure out the impasse we have to figure out how to adjust the message. My recollection is along the lines of: AZ: Sandroba is an F-Tier scum read --> is that not lock scum? AZ: Sandroba has posted dont lynch today -> why does it matter.. what was posted that was relevant to adjust read AZ: if sandroba is afk, then mafia how can this be anything but advocating for a policy (inactivity) lynch? -> that is within sandrobas power to control. do not forget, this applies to a F-tier read.. i mean.. c'mon. even i dont go out of my way to avoid voting someone like this i dunno what else to say.. what is sleight of hand? look at my left hand, whilst my right hand does something different. then lets all laugh together and enjoy the magic. AZ defends the D2 lynch and is quick fire to post that he indeed had a scumread on sandroba (i really hope this is correct as my memory is hazy now) That the left hand.. but what is the right hand doing? The votes say the right hand joined me on Rayn.. fuck DMB wagon.. why rayn which could have been a legit counter wagon to Sandroba at one point - and is a part of why rayn talks about about sandroba wagon being so hard (i hope at least) You are being razzle dazzled because AlphaZero is able to plug gaps that give you a sense of solving the game, but its all about him. I dont know what else to say.Maybe some super analytical players can backup every decision as clean as AlphaZero, yet i find you to be significantly more analytical than Alpha, and somehow have a messier filter.. how does this come about? This is all with associatives removed. If i add the associatves, the rayn mason log i think is important as it restricts a lot of freedom AZ has, because rayn has separate dialogue going on and potentially is even the main cause of push-pull i identified.. obviously this is too imaginary for you to walk along with me, so ignore as you need. presence isnt related to finding mafia. my point is, i dont want to throw my vote away again. i respect the way you are going about the game and thats why i said what i did. For what it's worth, I could have a super clean filter if I wanted to. I just don't really care. I'm sure a player of AlphaZero's caliber would have no problems keeping a clean filter as town if they are so inclined. When I played years ago, even as town, I used to keep a word document with all my read progressions on everyone, the result is a perfectly clean filter  That said, the point of the majority of your post is actually reasonable. That's actually the kind of read I like, not saying "you screwed up here and you are bad and you aren't this bad as town" but saying, "your actions line up with mafia motivation." I'm not sure if I completely buy it because I don't think that AlphaZero worked very hard at all to keep sandroba alive, but I at least see where you are coming from and I appreciate that. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Vivax is town rsoultin is maybe town AlphaZero is maybe mafia? AlphaZero is mafia, maybe Kelsi3r is mafia? scott31337 is town Koshi maybe town (argument with Vivax spanning several posts, unclear conclusion but seems to indicate Vivax may be mafia) sandroba, AlphaZero, and Vivax maybe mafia marvellosity and Koshi town Mocsta maybe mafia Vivax maybe mafia scott31337 town Koshi town, scott31337 town, Trfel town, sandroba mafia, Mocsta mafia, Vivax mafia, AlphaZero unknown, raynpelikoneet unknown, Alakaslam unknown sandroba mafia, Vivax unknown (a few posts tangentially saying that sandroba and Mocsta are mafia) AlphaZero and someone else (I think Mocsta but maybe scott31337) are mafia (context suggests Mocsta) AlphaZero or Mocsta is mafia scott31337 is maybe mafia Note: die_meatbaby hadn't mentioned anything about Kelsi3r by post #655, but then voted for Kelsi3r in post #1122. In post #1008 die_meatbaby says she isn't happy with both wagons, which I guess matches settling for the better of two suboptimal wagons as the deadline approaches, but eh. Second note: On June 10 2024 11:01 die_meatbaby wrote: mocasta maybe red aswell On June 10 2024 11:08 die_meatbaby wrote: How can die_meatbaby both think Mocsta is maybe mafia and also be surprised at mafia not killing Mocsta? For her to actually be surprised at mafia not killing Mocsta, that means die_meatbaby thinks Mocsta is a power role, as he claimed. But then die_meatbaby would think that Mocsta is town, not maybe mafia? I know I asked about this before, but it still doesn't make any sense? Die_meatbaby responded that it was because she wasn't sure if the claim is true, and that it's strange that Mocsta didn't die to the night kill. But if she isn't sure if the claim is true, then why wouldn't mafia also be unsure? Why couldn't they just roleblock him? I just struggle to see this from a town perspective.I don´t understand mafia here right now. If somebody claims blue... why do they not kill mocstar. Marv is always strong Town. But mafia shouldn´t be that scared of him on the n1 Third note: On June 10 2024 21:37 die_meatbaby wrote: sandro+mocstar+ xxx And I will fucking find out if you are the xxx On June 11 2024 03:57 die_meatbaby wrote: The first quote indicates that die_meatbaby finds Mocsta more suspicious than Vivax. The second quote seems very opportunistic, it feels like it's there to justify having voted for Vivax, because conveniently there was a wagon on Vivax at this time.Why do I avoid scum hunting? I told you sandro what be my highest prefering lynch but I am fine with Vivax as well Fourth note: die_meatbaby's reads this game just feel so repetitive. Let's just look at scumreads, since those are the important ones. She starts out scumreading AlphaZero, and eventually adds sandroba and Mocsta, and then considers Vivax and maybe scott31337 right at the end. That just seems incredibly close-minded for a game in mid day 3. Add on all the excuses, and the random warning to Oatsmaster not to do something that would make it clear he is mafia, and townreading scott31337 because he looks scummy as town, and I think it's quite reasonable to lynch die_meatbaby here. I could absolutely be wrong, I don't trust my grasp of the game very much right now, but it's the best I've got at this time. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 14 2024 17:04 Mocsta wrote: Sounds good, take care of yourself and enjoy.thansk trfel appreciate you talking it out with me im scooting now will see where you are voting closer to deadline and make a decision from there | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
For the second note, though technically die_meatbaby posted after the day post, it doesn't read like she had seen the day post when she went to post this. But it doesn't matter too much. You might be right, I haven't seen die_meatbaby play as town really so I don't know how it would come off to me. And although possible, this would require mafia to have double bussed day 2. But also, like, who else? Scott31337? Doubt there is enough support, and imo there are some doubts there too... Alakaslam? Eh... Raynpelikoneet and Koshi were instrumental in lynching mafia yesterday. I don't see enough reason to ignore that. You and Mocsta have been my strongest sources of logic, reasoning, and sense this game. Regardless of how correct your reads are, you've been the easiest people for me to reason with. And I think that goes a long way. Maybe I'm being super pocketed but it's how I am seeing it. Leaves an active Vivax. Eh again. He feels underwhelming at times but quite solid at others. Maybe this is me being bad and looking at reasons to townread instead of reasons to scumread, which tends to be much less effective for me. But also it's starting to get closer to the deadline and I'm just not as confident in anything as I'd like. I keep looking at scott31337 and Mocsta and it just doesn't feel quite right, I could absolutely see scott31337 being mafia and I could vote him but idk, now I'm just rambling, idk anymore. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
But I think lynching die_meatbaby has more support than lynching scott31337? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Not really my thing. But here goes: 1. Easy to work with/talk to Mocsta has been one of the easiest players to work with this game. He's very clear about where his thoughts are coming from, is willing to consider different angles, and readily gives feedback on other peoples' ideas. 2. Lots of independent analysis Mocsta has done plenty of analysis here. Say what you want about the quality, but to me it shows that he is working to figure things out. I think he's made about as many analysis posts as anyone else. 3. Original thoughts Mocsta often comes up with original thoughts that haven't been said by anyone else. This seems much more likely to come from someone who is thinking critically and trying to work things out. I'm trying to understand why you two are so suspicious of each other. It felt like we were working together and seeing it so similarly day 2, and while we were wrong that day, that's not just something I throw away easily. See me working with Mocsta on his reasons for scumreading you, for example. Maybe you're right on Mocsta. But if you are not, here is my guess as to why: I think your expectations of Mocsta may be too high. He produces a lot of content and the scum hunting drive is clearly there. That said, I don't think his logic is on the same level as (for example) raynpelikoneet, marvellosity, Holyflare, people like that. Mocsta has his own, unique way of thinking about things, and while I think that's an asset, I think it may be throwing you off. I think you may be setting your expectations for Mocsta based on the amount of analysis he posts and the types of things he looks into, but then you hold him to a similar standard of logic and reasoning and that's just not the way he thinks and the result is that he seems scummy. Could be wrong but that's my two cents. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I think there's a big difference in original thoughts and leading vs following thread sentiment. I don't think Mocsta's conclusions are particularly unique. But the thought process and arguments and reasoning that he takes to get there are. Big difference. Raynpelikoneet is arguing that Mocsta is following thread sentiment, at least when it benefits him. I'm saying that Mocsta's reasoning that goes into his reads is original. Those things can coexist. Again, I could absolutely be wrong on Mocsta, I think I have a soft spot for his posting style (he reads like an analysis first, thread presence second type of player, just like me) and I don't know how to un-bias myself from that. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Like when you spend all day on this great meal and then everyone eats it in 10 minutes and that's that | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
If you want to say die_meatbaby is mafia, can we do so in a civil manner? It's not fair to expect her to answer questions from three people at once. That's not realistic, regardless of alignment. And there's no need to just bash on stuff. I know I haven't done a good job myself of treating my mafia reads with respect and I'm sorry about that, but that felt a bit over the top. | ||
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Trfel
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Trfel
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On June 15 2024 01:43 die_meatbaby wrote: At some point imo if you are town you have to accept that you can't play as much as you would want to, stop making excuses, and do the best you can with the time you do have. I've been doing this, for example.My schedule was not the best I had 13 hour shift on d1 and on my days off we moved to another place. So time was also not mine. But for you I am also mafia because off me playing less as usual Why was scott31337 town to you early on? You said he was town because he looks scummy as town, but wouldn't he also look scummy as mafia? How do you tell the difference? | ||
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