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On December 02 2020 12:30 Grackaroni wrote:
The few times I've hosted I think I've given mafia RB priority but I can see an argument either way. If mafia have two alive they still get to choose who they want to send KP.
Also serves him right for murdering me, Grackaroni.
(Though it seems Vivax had me nailed in scum QT :D)
I'm looking to setup a Diplomacy game in the other thread. It's a lot of fun and the mechanics are not very complicated.
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On December 02 2020 13:00 Grackaroni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2020 12:30 Grackaroni wrote:
The few times I've hosted I think I've given mafia RB priority but I can see an argument either way. If mafia have two alive they still get to choose who they want to send KP. Also serves him right for murdering me, Grackaroni. (Though it seems Vivax had me nailed in scum QT :D)
My confused comes from if m!rb and t!jk solve before m!kp. The fact they did screwed mafia. This game was a easy mafia win until that moment.
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On December 02 2020 12:29 Grackaroni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2020 12:22 Eversince wrote:On December 02 2020 12:18 Grackaroni wrote:
It looks like Vivax conceded Yeah from what I can see from QTs Vivax called it because I mean.. He was right. There isn't much left to do when everyone suspects you and your partner just got fucking huge sign 'IM MAFIA!!' Hard spot to be in  I didn't read but I know FF got confirmed by being the bodyguard and I guess people believed the jailor claim. That's just an unfortunate outcome for scum at the end having killed off everybody unable to confirm themselves. (me//TT/Jock/ShoCkkey had no claims). I guess their best chance may have been to make some sort of counterclaim against Trfel.
Given how claims happened idk about CC, and honestly Rayn/Vivax still won the claim day (and more or less the game, minus the technicality) by getting town to lynch me while I was saying "Rayn/Vivax are scum" lol.
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I personally think fine.. They solve together ( as cake said killing each) mafia shot goes through.
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On December 02 2020 13:04 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2020 12:29 Grackaroni wrote:On December 02 2020 12:22 Eversince wrote:On December 02 2020 12:18 Grackaroni wrote:
It looks like Vivax conceded Yeah from what I can see from QTs Vivax called it because I mean.. He was right. There isn't much left to do when everyone suspects you and your partner just got fucking huge sign 'IM MAFIA!!' Hard spot to be in I didn't read but I know FF got confirmed by being the bodyguard and I guess people believed the jailor claim. That's just an unfortunate outcome for scum at the end having killed off everybody unable to confirm themselves. (me//TT/Jock/ShoCkkey had no claims). I guess their best chance may have been to make some sort of counterclaim against Trfel. Given how claims happened idk about CC, and honestly Rayn/Vivax still won the claim day (and more or less the game, minus the technicality) by getting town to lynch me while I was saying "Rayn/Vivax are scum" lol.
I honestly didn't read much after I died. From what I see Rayn played really well and Vivax was not too surprising as mafia.
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On December 02 2020 12:51 CopCake wrote:
Tfrel blocked rayn
Vivax blocked Tfrel
Rayn had the night kill
So it seems that only the saving part of Tfrel action gets blocked and not the block.
Correct.
It is not intuitive but Greymist had explained that both RBs happen at the same time and thus RB is not prevented (but JK's ability to save is stopped).
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I'm trash at balance but t!jk and m!rb should of cancel, Rayn shot goes through. I leave the rest of this fight to friends way better than me though :p
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Again why I say it's not intuitive.
I also hope Rayn doesn't stay too mad about the technicality as the game as a whole is still a solid testimony. Since I see him being so results and Win oriented I suspect that will not work for him.
I can only say that sometimes you should choose to focus on the positives and try to let shit outside of your control roll off your back kus the burden is never worth carrying that shit.
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On December 02 2020 13:14 Tictock wrote:
Again why I say it's not intuitive.
I also hope Rayn doesn't stay too mad about the technicality as the game as a whole is still a solid testimony. Since I see him being so results and Win oriented I suspect that will not work for him.
I can only say that sometimes you should choose to focus on the positives and try to let shit outside of your control roll off your back kus the burden is never worth carrying that shit.
He is not mad lol but I want to understand the mechanic so in future games if I role mafia (or town) I dont make this mistake.
So pretty much only the save of a jailkeeper can be blocked, not the block.
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On December 02 2020 13:17 CopCake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2020 13:14 Tictock wrote:
Again why I say it's not intuitive.
I also hope Rayn doesn't stay too mad about the technicality as the game as a whole is still a solid testimony. Since I see him being so results and Win oriented I suspect that will not work for him.
I can only say that sometimes you should choose to focus on the positives and try to let shit outside of your control roll off your back kus the burden is never worth carrying that shit. He is not mad lol but I want to understand the mechanic so in future games if I role mafia (or town) I dont make this mistake. So pretty much only the save of a jailkeeper can be blocked, not the block.
+1
Well no edit.. I think if both rbs are on the same night they should cancel.
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I can't rb if I'm rb? Then you can't either. Makes sense to me..
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Well do keep in mind this is specific to Greymist's setup where the RBs resolve at the same time.
I believe in most setups mafia RB takes priority and thus the kill would have gone through.
Basically the logic scum used in their QT is how most games will function, where their kill goes through and it's a mafia win
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Also keep in mind in greymist games the hosts may force you to concede against your say.
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Canada11355 Posts
Mvp fecalfeast
+ Show Spoiler + but seriously I'm not going to join any games for a while as I clearly can't commit to the game
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In the future I will be very clear how roleblocks interact. I’m sorry people had a misunderstanding but this was explained no less than 3 times this game to various people at various points, including with hypothetical scenarios. But again, we will be more clear in the future.
Rayn, you won in my heart. Try to appreciate the challenging situation this game presented us at the end here. I understand that you must be frustrated, justifiably so, but sadly, due to how we ruled things resolved, the game was mechanically over, it would just take 72 hours for it to resolve.
I resolve night actions with fun arrow charts, some picture are floating around at the end of previous games. For actions players take, I draw arrows coming off their name and hitting another player. KP is one of these arrows. In the event of roleblocks, I go and scribble through all arrows coming off of that player. Because roleblocks occur first and at the same time, Rayn had his KP arrow scribbled through.
Those that know me know that I took, and indeed still take, hosting games like this very seriously. I do not make decisions without thought. I hope you all can appreciate the time that DYH and I put into hosting this game, and I hope you appreciate how truly rare this game was, mafia was dominating sure, but not without great play from all sides.
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On December 02 2020 13:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Also keep in mind in greymist games the hosts may force you to concede against your say.
I believe ending the game when I did was the right call. However, I made a pretty big mistake. I should not have asked for your and Vivax's concession. As Vivax pointed out in the scumqt, I did not need it to justify ending the game. Once I did ask for a concession the right thing to do was wait until I had a clear response from both of you, even if it dragged things out. Taking things out of your hands after asking for your input was absolutely wrong, and I wholeheartedly apologize.
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Rayn you have to concede to DYH that he took the burden off your shoulders of feeling like it was us who fucked up.
You are probably concealing your happiness about that.
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After reading the QT and thinking about the end-game some more, I pretty strongly disagree with the decision to end the game. While I do not want to have the effect of "piling" on criticism of some hosting decisions, I do think some constructive criticism is warranted.
DYH has already touched on some reasons, namely maintaining the consistency of hosting position (i.e. sticking by the initial decision of seeking the approval of the whole mafia team for a concession).
In addition, having the game ripped out from under a player who does not agree to concede creates a lot of unnecessary hard feelings, and I would rather a game drag on for an unnecessarily long time rather than do that to any player.
Finally, I do not believe even a forced concession by the hosts was appropriate. In my view, mafia had options (exceptionally low percentage ones) to continue the game. If mafia have any chance, no matter how small, I do not feel it is appropriate for the hosts to step in. Consider the following options for mafia:
1) The game is "over" only if Rayn gets lynched first and all townies perfectly cooperate in thread. Mafia have a chance to push a mislynch on me in the endgame.
2) Mafia have arguments (albeit bad ones) that Trfel is not the JK, or that mafia held the shot.
3) At the time I posted my plan, FF and Trfel had not "agreed" with it. It is not really a game-winning plan unless all townies see it, agree to it, and execute it.
4) One of the townies in the game could very well go AFK, or Trfel could forget to submit a night action.
5) Mafia could argue that the situation is not 2 mafia v. 3 town, but rather, 2 mafia v. 1 third party v. 2 town OR 1/1/3.
I can go on and on, but the point is that the game isn't "technically" over, and ending the game has the potential to create a lot of hard post-game feelings if hosts can determine when a game is over, especially if a mafia player feels like they want to explore those low-percentage options. There are definitely some grey lines in there.
All and all, I feel that the best policy is that no concessions should be allowed unless the entire mafia team agrees to concede. I believe intelligent people can disagree on this, but that is what I feel about the situation.
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On December 03 2020 00:48 Hapahauli wrote:
After reading the QT and thinking about the end-game some more, I pretty strongly disagree with the decision to end the game. While I do not want to have the effect of "piling" on criticism of some hosting decisions, I do think some constructive criticism is warranted.
DYH has already touched on some reasons, namely maintaining the consistency of hosting position (i.e. sticking by the initial decision of seeking the approval of the whole mafia team for a concession).
In addition, having the game ripped out from under a player who does not agree to concede creates a lot of unnecessary hard feelings, and I would rather a game drag on for an unnecessarily long time rather than do that to any player.
Finally, I do not believe even a forced concession by the hosts was appropriate. In my view, mafia had options (exceptionally low percentage ones) to continue the game. If mafia have any chance, no matter how small, I do not feel it is appropriate for the hosts to step in. Consider the following options for mafia:
1) The game is "over" only if Rayn gets lynched first and all townies perfectly cooperate in thread. Mafia have a chance to push a mislynch on me in the endgame.
2) Mafia have arguments (albeit bad ones) that Trfel is not the JK, or that mafia held the shot.
3) At the time I posted my plan, FF and Trfel had not "agreed" with it. It is not really a game-winning plan unless all townies see it, agree to it, and execute it.
4) One of the townies in the game could very well go AFK, or Trfel could forget to submit a night action.
5) Mafia could argue that the situation is not 2 mafia v. 3 town, but rather, 2 mafia v. 1 third party v. 2 town OR 1/1/3.
I can go on and on, but the point is that the game isn't "technically" over, and ending the game has the potential to create a lot of hard post-game feelings if hosts can determine when a game is over, especially if a mafia player feels like they want to explore those low-percentage options. There are definitely some grey lines in there.
All and all, I feel that the best policy is that no concessions should be allowed unless the entire mafia team agrees to concede. I believe intelligent people can disagree on this, but that is what I feel about the situation.
Fair enough. I support and stand by our decision. But I understand the points here and the hard feelings. I just hope everyone can appreciate the great play
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EPT
