EPTNewbie Student Mafia XXIV
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mahrgell
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No pressure, no pressure. | ||
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On October 30 2016 12:02 cakepie wrote: Don't you have another place to shitpost? Like the next 1k post quota to fill? =Þ was this your first question in his ama? :D | ||
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On October 30 2016 12:23 NeverUnlucky wrote: Oh, snap, I remember you from the hockey thread. How close do you follow the NHL from Deutschland? What's your favorite team? I usually only watched my local home teams in the German 2nd/3rd div. Then beginning of the year I was forced (by a Canadian from from the TL dominions group) to watch Habs games. You know, exactly that stretch of games where the Habs would only win if the game accidentally forgot to field enough players and never noticed during the entire game. By now I watch basically 90% of all Habs games. Other games I watch by chance, whenever the Habs aren't playing and I'm bored. Well... plus reading NHL.com and whatever SN reports before and during Habs games :D | ||
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On October 31 2016 21:33 Shapelog wrote: Actually, all he has done, is back himself in a corner with you if he is scum.  See number 4 states that he will have a good read on you, in the case that you tunnel. If no such read was to come, or a crappy one, then he would look less credible. Perhaps, you could argue that 6 could set up a possible scum read for him (if people keep scum reading him) but that is weak. He also is forced in this to read the "One town with a weird entry" as town, due to wording. Which is bad for scum, as it knocks off a ML for day 1 at least. In fact, the only way this benefits scum is if the person to make the weird entry is scum buddies, which is a high risk, low reward (a weak reason to TR at most) move IMO The rest of it is unpredictable and useless, since it revolves on other players doing it. Sorry, regaining my mafia mindset. EDIT: He also would have to point out the case is weak too due to #8 and make reads accordly. When NU wrote in #4 about "good read" all he meant was "start a 20 page shouting duel with Calix, with both calling each other names, so that all other players get dazed and just want to hide from the thread". Which in the end always benefits scum. Having them in the same game seems to always benefit scum, no matter which roles they roll. #prayforrollingscum #scumOP The problem with that meta is, that they both have to hold this up, as this is their typical townie meta. If they were not yelling at each other, this would strongly hint at them being scum. | ||
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You are a legend, Sir. | ||
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On October 31 2016 23:25 Calix wrote: I suspect that mahrgell decided to read previous games in order to get a feel for the players he would be in the game with. Sadly this probably means that I'm going to be deluged with shitty and inaccurate meta reads First line (suspection) completely wrong, but second line (let's call it conclusion) completely is a true/good/honest statement. On October 31 2016 23:41 NeverUnlucky wrote: Me thinks Margey was following Cruise Trip all along. Only you are tryhard enough to read past games in the pre-game. Day 1 we sheep or kill margey. First line (suspection) correct, but second line (conclusion) terrible! | ||
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First of all it is obvious you are trying to distance from each other, in an almost unnatural rough way. Second you both consider me a noob, so NU wants to direct the lynch on an easy target. Meanwhile Calix wants to suck up on a noob for easy towncred to profit from it in a lylo situation. Both are typical scumplays in the early! Now you both should be lynched... And for order, there is an easy tiebreaker.... NU writes my name wrong, so he has to go first. ##Vote NeverUnlucky + Show Spoiler + I'm just practicing. This is like pregame warmup. | ||
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Also don't take me too serious in pregame. (Obv. you should buy everything I say once game has started.) | ||
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On November 01 2016 01:52 Calix wrote: You sound like you come from MS. That's my theory anyway I come from the real world And this is pretty universal. | ||
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On November 01 2016 01:56 NeverUnlucky wrote: I already very much like marghell. Now you suck up to me too.... Suspicious. But you still misspelt my name. so everybody on board of the NU-wagon! Lynch him! | ||
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That's the advantage in RL mafia... YOU CANT HIDE! | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + NU said, this should be done first. Blame him. | ||
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On November 03 2016 03:17 NeverUnlucky wrote: Why so defensive, mate? :< "Give me a break" after two trivial questions is much of an over-exaggeration, mang. mahrgell (spelled your name right), what do you make of Exo and Calix's lil" chit chat so far? c: 1) I'm very proud you got my name correct this time. Maybe we delay your lynch a few days! 2) Calix: Looked to me like an "let's start the game" thing, I don't share Exo's interpretation that Calix wanted to silence him. This does not tell anything about Calix though. Could be fake activity, considering that those pathetically weak early attempts rarely lead to much information, could also honest interest in starting something. So nothing here. 3) Exo: his retaliation seemed... weird. I don't see a point there. I guess I could consider it something meta'ish that you blindly accuse everyone day1 to be mafia to "apply pressure and get things going". So either minor scumlean or just some broken metashit. 4) conclusion: I consider it for now as TvT, if it is MvT I would lean more in facor of Calix being the townie, I doubt it is MvM, but well... people can prep the most stupid shit before the game... Let's wait and see PS: if anyone is not a he and wants to be called a she... tell me... Otherwise I use internet rule #1 and consider everyone a male. | ||
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On November 03 2016 03:23 NeverUnlucky wrote: mahrgell, we've seen you make an entry in the thread. Do you have any comment to make or are you frozen? :3 Sorry bro, I just write slowly :D | ||
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On November 03 2016 03:30 Calix wrote: I for one do not like NU. His tone seems weird, he makes statements that are factually inaccurate/ putting words into my mouth and then retracts them when called out on them. I don't understand why. Given that he's just disappeared, I'll wait for a response before concluding anything for sure but he's giving me bad vibes at the moment. Well 1) I share NU's interpretation of what happened. 2) I appreciate his call for civil communication, from what I read in Cruisetrip he could have also easily heated up the fire without it looking worse than his usual play. 3) But I also agree with you, that it is weird for him to "buddy" you, by pretending you were sharing his self made points. I don't think there is much reason for him to try to appease you. | ||
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so, you are sticking with Calix as your prime scumcandidate? | ||
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Now that you noticed your misread. Are you still going after Calix, or have you shifted your focus on NU? Would the argument you made for Calix also apply to NU? Or where do you see the difference there? | ||
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On November 03 2016 04:01 Calix wrote: + Show Spoiler + With regards to Point 2, he is much tamer when he is scum. I'm not claiming that this is a 100% guaranteed tell (he is also busy and this has led to him being more subdued in the past) but it's in the back of my mind. Well in my opinion, this is how it went down: - He asks why ExO is being overly defensive. - I call ExO anti-town. - He misrepresented my positions by claiming that he agreed that I was a) scum-reading ExO and b) scum-reading ExO due to being overly defensive. - I ask him where he interpreted this from as those are not my positions. - He denies claiming this. - I tell him that he literally said in his quote "I agree with Calix" This is where the scummy part is. He immediately backtracks from that position by saying "well I don't agree" and leaves it at that. That's scummy because this progression could be NU trying to plant ideas inside of my head without actually taking responsibility for having the idea. This is a compelling explanation because the ExO/ Calix discussion was still going on at this time. Thus, it's possible that he was trying to manipulate me into agreeing that ExO's behaviour is scummy. It's also possible because I am well-known for getting myself into tunnels so I am a viable target. So yeah, discuss and all that. Yes, this is pretty much my 3). I fully agree with you here. Also he started voting Exo. Now of course he will most likely tell us, that he pregame announced he was PL'ing gifs. But that is just the same category as the usual "totally busy, won't post" pregame crap... Nice excuse if you roll mafia, and who cares if you don't do it and roll town. From a townie I would expect a calmer attitude instead of throwing votes on someone who posted one textpost and one gif. He could have easily stayed on Exo and push that lynch, if there is some movement. Or he could stay there, if he doesn't want to vote a scumbuddy... Or he could just switch as easy.... Overall... Not liking it. But let's wait for NU to explain himself. | ||
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On November 03 2016 04:17 Foreman wrote: Considering you've yet to acquit yourself for that shady ExO push, I'm not concerned about your NU push when he isn't even here to respond to it. Why not? Following multiple leads is not bad for town. And even if we flip Calix in the end, no matter what color it is, having his talking points discussed would be beneficial to town. So I can't understand that refusal to comment on it. Especially as I would be very interested in your opinion. Don't worry, we won't forget about Calix. And if you feel it got forgotten, ust bring it up later again, if someone wants to balem you for it, just forward it to me. | ||
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On November 03 2016 04:26 Foreman wrote: Because scum has every reason to make bad pushes on town. Unless I'm convinced that I'm wrong on Calix, I'm not getting invested in his pushes. Well... So you refuse to answer me, because I share points with Calix on this issue? So I'm now scum by association for you? Doing that after posting large paragraphs about "what kind of behaviour is protown"? | ||
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 Sorry. | ||
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On November 03 2016 04:35 Calix wrote: It's ironic because you're insinuating that I am a bad player...but I'm pretty sure that you misinterpreted what Foreman said. He was calling me scum, not you. I am aware that he is only going after you. But as I share your concern regarding NU... And would like the same answer to be answered... He refuses to answer me, because he considers you to be scum. I don't agree on the policy of "I don't talk to who I consider scum". I consider this antitown, but I understand interpretations on this may differ. But I really dislike the policy of "I don't talk to you, because a player I consider to be scum shared your concerns". This is for sure antitown. So either he considers me scum too, or he is just antitown. Both conclusions are not really giving him any plus points in my book. | ||
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I usually try to stay more distanced and openminded though.  And use your stirred up chaos :D | ||
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On November 03 2016 04:40 Calix wrote: Man, having everyone be a bunch of slow-pokes with typing is making me bored. I'm just going to vote now. ##vote NeverUnlucky Didn't you want to wait until NU comes back and answers? While I support your points about him, I still want to see his answer before I can support this push. And for the time being, I'm more looking at Foreman than at NU anyway. | ||
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On November 03 2016 05:03 Calix wrote: Actually that post where he's like "pls don't mind-meld with me" was pretty weird because we didn't actually have the same thought process on the posts. (I didn't get that impression anyway) But that's the only post that I found weird from mahrgell so I'm fine with him for now. That post was more directed at the fact, that whenever I posted, and refreshed, to see who else posted in the time while I wrote my post... There was always a similar post from you. | ||
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How is your opinion on what happened in your afk time? How you judge Foreman, Exo, Calix, Skynx? darthfoley had only one post, not sure you would want to read anything. And well... if you have questions for me... fire away. | ||
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On November 03 2016 06:17 Foreman wrote: I'd like to see some reads with original content from mahrgell. How many you need? You obviously ignored all my posts about yourself. But let's summarize and update: Looking at your entire post history, I try to figure out how you managed to come to the conclusion you have. If you have no information about the game, you should have seen the same as me. And yet somehow you managed to take another turn at pretty much every point in the game. So far all your actions have been about the opposite of what I would expect from someone who saw the same as I did, with the same information I have. (none). 1) you see the Calix vs Exo_ interaction and for weird reasons tunnel down on Calix. Was she(it seems like Calix is a she?) pushing Exo? I don't think so. If she was, I agree it was pointless, but well... Day1. You were sure she was pushing Exo. Okay... Happy tunneling. 2) so you chase after people for having the antitown-proscum conversation, just to push that conversation further. If it was in your interest to remove this discussion from the thread to steer the game in a more town friendly direction, you should probably not try to last word in that conversation. 3) Next Calix asks you about NU. Instead of answering, you refuse to answer at all, because you consider Calix scum. I believe enough people pointed out at this point that this is pretty anti-town. Considering you being worried about the town atmosphere before, this is rather ironic. 4) I ask you about NU too. You dismiss it as parroting. Besides the fact that I consider it not parroting, but admit, that my critique on NU was very similar to Calix (earlier, not her latest) posts, let's for a moment assume it was parroting. At this point you claimed to scumlean Calix, but didn't say anything about me. If I were a townie, and see someone else parrot a person I consider scum... I for sure as hell would do my best to get this person to stop sheeping a scummie. Either you turn on me right away, or you try to get me away from her. Instead you just dismissed me. If I was sheeping Calix and you considered her scum, you willingly gave her an additional vote. 5) Your general contribution to this thread has never been in the interest of improving the atmosphere. In none of the mentioned points have you ever tried for a constructive conversation. And your latest responses to NU weren't better either. Not sure if it was in this thread or in the other one, but when you asked about the TL meta someone (NU?) answered: "Be wrong and a dick about it" This is exactly what I see you doing here. I guess you earned it ##Vote Foreman | ||
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##Vote Foreman | ||
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But well... What was posted doesn't really change my above post. Even though I started writing it after reading #254 and wasn't aware of Foreman fully going after me now. Should learn to type faster. | ||
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Foreman (as explained, and I will stay on him and hope to get this wagon rolling) NU Why NU? I can already see people digging out the post where I waffled away from him. Goodwill is probably not a good town trait. But let me explain my thought: I initially agreed with Calix that he implied an opinion on Calix she didn't post before. This has been discussed enough. Nontheless I accepted his explanation about it, keeping the minor point against him noted. Him trying to create a positive atmosphere is something I value highly. Now Calix seemed to go completely overboard in tunnel mode, and I honestly cried on the inside about her points. But it were NU's answers who were supposed to destroy Calix points, which brought me back onto him. First he mentioned how he loves to powerwolf, winning 1v7 etc... Well... So basically his explanation for his initial misstep was devalued by that. Assuming he tries to balance his towngame against his mafiagame, not yet conclusive. But the doubt was increasing. Next was his vote on Calix. Seriously, he had absolutely no case here. Now you may tell me again, NU loves frustration voting. Okay. But I consider it a bad trait. NU, stop it or you will probably never get towncred with me. This isn't really advancing the game. If you consider Calix to spout nonsense, either make a proper case or ignore her and talk about what you have noticed with others. And last was this post: On November 03 2016 07:04 NeverUnlucky wrote: I agree with TT on all points. Especially line 3. His VT claim was very odd, too, even more when you see him explaining it in 4 lines. It could have been him setting up a reason to be alive late in the game as scum, or he is a blue. In any case, I highly doubt that he is VT as VTs don't claim VT. Really? A townie speculating about another player being blue or red? I mean, is this EVER smart? Mafia knows what color the guy is, and if he isn't red, you probably helped them in case they didn't notice. So by now, I can see myself supporting a NU wagon too. As said earlier, I still want Foreman gone first... But if this wagon does not play out and deadline was close, I would jump on a NU wagon too. | ||
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On November 03 2016 07:23 NeverUnlucky wrote: If I'm being completely honest I think that Calix is town. But then I would have to explain myself, so I'll just keep pretending I scum-read her. Then ignore her for the moment and talk about the rest of the game. Foreman is accusing me, I'm accusing Foreman. Others have chimed in. Maybe they have said suspicious things too? Does anyone look like hes sheeping? Let's not pretend there is nothing to talk about outside of Calix vs NU. | ||
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On November 03 2016 07:31 Calix wrote: I've found the problem with mahrgell's 'cases' (for lack of a better term) He's extremely unfocused when he's making his points. It's hard to infer what his actual case is. He narrates their filters instead of making targeted points about why his target is scummy. He also likes to waffle on and doubt himself. I told you earlier, that I prefer to play a more distanced style. Yes, I will usually explain possible outs too. From what I read in Cruise and Dota this seems to be unusual here, as everyone loves tunneling down and ignore everything that goes against their current opinion. No, I don't know the scumteam day 1. But I think I also made sufficiently clear that at this point, I have 2 clear wagons I would like to push, and in which priority. And if you see me changing my opinion, just ask me for my reasoning. Right now nothing Foreman has posted since I posted my case against him has swayed me the slightest. NU hasn't answered me yet and is only my secondary choice right now anyway. So if I change vote, one of 3 things must happen: a) they make a very convincing argument, but not seeing that now b) someone makes himself even more scummy, but this won't remove my doubts about them c) we are close to deadline and my priority choices are not happening and I have a preference in a wagon race. About making more targeted points/narrated filters: What you wish here? More quotes? If this helps you, I can do that. If you have any advice on improving my readability, I'm all ear and will try to implement it. I can't claim years of forum Mafia. IRL things are different. :D | ||
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On November 03 2016 07:33 Calix wrote: In fact, looking at mahrgells' case again, I'm having a hard time thinking that he actually scum-reads NU. Nothing he says is actually that scummy when casing him. He just sounds so unsure of himself that it demotivates me just to look at it. How about the last point, the quote about Exo? Yes, everything before were just small notes in my head, adding up. But this post (and repeating it again on the next page, is he trying to force a blueclaim?) is just really disturbing me. The fact that his tldr of my post also ignored that point doesn't help him. | ||
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On November 03 2016 07:34 Tictock wrote: Oh my bad mahrgell, I've been totally misspelling your name. I shall henceforth be reffering to you as gell to fix that. What are your thoughts on Exo? - overdefended against air from Calix - retaliation vote, I mentioned I dislike those - kinda stubbornly tunneled Calix - neither of those are good things, but can also be very emotional TvT. Judging this would be easier if I knew some meta. So postponing this read for now, especially as I have higher priority lynch targets. | ||
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On November 03 2016 07:43 Calix wrote: I don't want more quotes. I think that you lack focus when casing your scum-reads so you should focus more on the quality of the few points you make > quantity, if that makes sense. Thanks, noted. I will try to make it shorter. Remind me if I do it again, I won't be mad at you for it.^^ | ||
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On November 03 2016 07:50 NeverUnlucky wrote: mahr, tell me why you town-read Calix. Because her actions so far are believable for a no-knowledge townie. She is massively stirring up dust, chasing shadows, engaging people, actively leading with her own points. I consider those positive traits. So far this day has been surprisingly productive for a Day1, and if she was doing this as scum by accident, she would have been told to stfu by now. And even if this is all some masterful play... As active as she is, she would dig her own grave soon enough. | ||
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I would still prefer you to talk about nonCalix points.  Considering the number of posts you now dedicated to Calix after refusing my request for the first time, how about now?@Calix actually the same... I think everything between NU and you is said. Let's for a moment assume your NU wagon is dead and you have to pick between Foreman and me. Who would you vote? | ||
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On November 03 2016 09:11 Calix wrote: (I believe his Foreman argument is his most substantial original contribution to date) I would like to mention that my final point on NU was very different from yours. 1) You went after him for his "buddying" - here I agreed 2) He gave an explanation - you refused it, I accepted it 3) You went into a mudfight with him, calling all his answers wrong - I took his answers for what he said, which made me rethink about my impression at 2) 4) he made this weird blue speculation - you ignored it entirely - I was tipped off by it and decided to make him my secondary scumread So yes, we went for the same player, but besides 1) for very different reasons. | ||
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On November 03 2016 09:02 darthfoley wrote: I've noticed that mahrgell is asking a lot of questions, especially of NU and Calix-- basically telling them to stop attacking each other and talk about other people. I also noticed that he hasn't done this at all himself, he's only talked about Foreman and NU; with the former, his case seemed pretty meh to me, except for #3. The only problem is that even this isn't an original point. I pointed it out, and a few others. He even admits that this point was taken from other people. What are you talking about? I asked him on #186, I asked again for clairification on his refusal to answer in #192, and then called this out as antitown behaviour in #195. Your first post was #229. Are you sure I copied this from you? Like seriously? And Calix was also only going at him for ignoring her questions. She didn't even mention him ignoring me. Also don't like how mahrgell keeps giving himself outs. I understand it's D1, but his posts are littered with him. I answered this to Calix in #330. Also currently I'm not giving myself outs on those two suspects I have. If you see me suddenly townreading them, or even just neuting them... Feel free to question me how I came to that conclusion. But I will probably tell you before as soon as I make that change of mind. And for the other players I will continue playing both scenarios in my mind: "How would I explain their behaviour if they were scum." vs. "How would I explain it if they were town." For my two suspects I currently lack a reasonable the second scenario -> scumread If he thinks it would be easier knowing some meta, I expect him to go snooping and answer his question. Feel free to fill me in about Exos meta. No, I won't read 2 billion pages from old games. I read Dota-Mafia live, I know something about Exos less than impressive scum-meta from there. But seriously don't expect me to postread all the other old games. Especially when I have hotter targets. If it comes down to an Exo vs X lynch... Maybe I will do some quick search. | ||
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On November 03 2016 09:33 NeverUnlucky wrote: mahr, you watching the game? I am, but I'm a slow typer (you may have noticed by now) and was answering to Foley. | ||
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On November 03 2016 09:36 NeverUnlucky wrote: Can you not give the post numbers and instead quote said posts? Okay, next time, didn't want to blow up the post though. Advice for improving readability is always welcome. | ||
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On November 03 2016 09:25 NeverUnlucky wrote: ... and because I alluded to ExO possibly being blue. Notice how he says that I am a townie aka he knows I am town while scum-reading me? This is spewing. - read it as "can you imagine a townie speculating". I already said that I try to interpret actions from both sides. And here it completely failed to interpret this from a town perspective. Because I still don't see any motivation for a townie to speculate about it. But I guess you prefer to grammartwist it and imply stuff that wasn't there. Also, he fails to explain how this makes me scum. He says that my post wasn't smart, which I agree with, but doesn't say that it makes me scum. Scum would have that blue talk in their respective QT, yes, I made a mistake by alluding to this possibility, but it really doesn't make me scum. Okay, as you asked for the explanation, I thought this would be obvious. No, I did not see it as you hinting your scumbuddies to this guy potentially being a blue. So your argument is completely moot. But there are still 2 scenarios for this to be scumplay imho: a) an attempt for getting a blueclaim out early, if that line was intentional b) if the line was unintentional... Scum has to make up stuff, has to look like they are provinding reads and content, without giving anythign away but confusion and misleads. And yes, when making up stuff, sometimes mistakes happen. So call it a slip. If it was a) I would be very disappointed in you, but b) I consider fully in the realm of possibilities. If I weight your very weird interpretation of my "A townie speculating" and compare it to my interpretation of your bluesuspicion... I give my own interpretation more likelihood to be anything than yours. | ||
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On November 03 2016 09:38 darthfoley wrote: My favorite part of NU's rebuttal of mahrgell's case is the bit about towncred. The mindset is very odd; as a town, I'm not particularly worried about gaining towncred, rather, I wanna find Mafia which towncred is a natural byproduct. Bad logic and bad case I guess I played the game wrong all the time. But knowing Mafia while being a dick to all other townies so you are ignored doesn't help the best townie. And if you just go back to the page where my original post was posted, you can see that it was littered with trash posts from NU vs Calix. NU completely abandoned his "lets make a good town atmosphere" plan from earlier. If telling someone to be reasonable if he wants to be heard is a scumlean now... Well, I take it. | ||
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already nearing the end of the 2nd period. | ||
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On November 03 2016 11:05 NeverUnlucky wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote ExO_ Is this vote as serious as your last 2? Or now really based on the points made here? I should probably read Exos filter again... Anyway... Habs game over, I can sleep now ^.^ Whoever feels throwing questions at me, go ahead, I will answer later. | ||
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@Calix Do you expect an answer from me on this? I could go on a wild ramble about your entire posts, but I'm afraid I would fall back into what was criticized before. So if you want anything answers, please cut it short in some questions. About your concerns regarding me using the term antitown. I could again explain my general attitude regarding this game. I'm not fond of throwing SCUM! around day1. But when antitown behaviour piles up on certain players, at some point this turns into a scumlean. But again we are probably using different definitions in this game here. If theres nothing more about me, I guess I will relook the Exo situation now. | ||
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I can't really add on anything to what was said in the thread here about him. I agree that the general development looks fishy. Especially the jump from his second last post: + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2016 04:46 ExO_ wrote: How can you be so hesitant to scum read anyone? All of your reads come built in with "but I might be wrong." You back pedal on everything you've said so far and leave yourself a way out. Almost as if you are afraid to hard scum read somebody because you know you are lying. I'm quite convinced you are scum leaving yourself as many outs as possible. to his last post: + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2016 15:11 ExO_ wrote: I'm tired. I just got home. I don't feel like reading through the read. But I'll tell you my thoughts in a nutshell from the point I left. I jumped on to Calix initially and continued to pressure him(her?) long after I thought she was scum. I do think the way he entered the thread was dumb and likely to inflame me. But his responses afterwards seemed very much from a towny perspective. I continued the pressure to see who would jump on the bandwagon with me in an attempt to press low hanging fruit. I'll look at it tomorrow, but NeverUnlucky/foreman are both going to be the first people I look at. Also note that he claims to not have read the thread since his last post, but not only does he adust his opinion to the later formulated thread opinion on Calix, but also wants to investigate NU/foreman first. Most of the NU/foreman drama started way later and in the period where he just claimed to not have read. But to judge further, I still believe that a look at his meta would help in this case. I said it before, and I will say it again: If someone who has played with Exo before would chime in on his meta, I would greatly appreciate it. Sadly this has been refused by the veterans so far. I have read his Dota2 game(scum) live as it happened, now decided to filter read his OutlawMM(townie) game. Skynx was Mafia with Exo in Dota2, so he should actually be able to give us some insight here. TT was in both games and saw it happen live. So could you two maybe share some opinion if Exos play reminds you of something? When looking at those games I noticed 3 differences: a) the dota2(scum) game consisted mainly out of "afk, playing civ" and "hey, can anyone post a summary, too lazy to read", in general his activity was luckluster, even though he chimed in whenever the need was there - his general activity in Outlaw was way higher. He bothered to read stuff himself, called out people for not reading the thread etc. - This game reminds more of the dota2 game, as others observed. b) day1, dota2 consisted out of him hardtunneling WoS(unknown alignment, game not finished). He didn't even bother to comment on anything else. He went either afk or continued his anti-WoS rants, just to ask for a summary on the cases on those wagons near the end of the day and again not add anything to it... His day1 in Outlaw looked different. He also tunneled Damdred at first here, later let it go. But in general he was looking way broader. He was a townie looking around at everyone, searching everyone. He basically engaged Damdred, Coag, HF, BF, Ness and in the end went after TT. - Again, this game looks closer to Dota2 c) I also tried to look into what he makes his cases off: Town-Exo examples: + Show Spoiler + On December 28 2015 21:21 ExO_ wrote: The progression of our conversation just now: Palmar hasn't been around at all for this game so far Enters the thread by by town reading me, specifically for the masons incident with rsoultin/coag Claims he hasn't read any of the thread and that had no idea anybody else town read me I'm not sure I believe his claim that he's read so little, or that he had no idea anybody else townread me. I think he's lying, and therefore I think he's scum. On December 28 2015 21:25 ExO_ wrote: Not reading the thread, yet town reading me for the exchange between myself/rsoultin/coag isn't believable to me. + Show Spoiler + On December 29 2015 03:48 ExO_ wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 28 2015 16:04 Tictock wrote: I'm sure this got brought up, but SL you missed Vivax last game as barely present mafia. He's also not as enthusiastic as he was in the town game you are referencing here. Somewhere in-between I'd say. + Show Spoiler + Re-looking at TT's filter, these posts were back-back. He tells SL that he missed Vivax as mafia in the previous game, implying that Vivax could be a mafia sliding by this game, but then says to keep me around for not wanting to get rid of Vivax? It doesn't make sense. Am I misreading it or? Either way I think I might be more inclined to go back to TT ScumExo + Show Spoiler + On October 20 2016 10:46 ExO_ wrote: Hello all. I hate day 1 but I'll be here. I'm ready for all the baseless analysis that always goes on. I have not really read the thread yet, but the first thing I notice is: For those that aren't aware he's referencing the hero dazzle, who has an ability called shadow wave. Dazzle also has an ability called shadow grave, which prevents people from dying. So to anybody who's vaguely familiar with dota, he's basically coming out immediately and claiming some form of doctor. I don't think the doc should come in and announce themselves right away. This looks hella scummy to me. + Show Spoiler + On October 26 2016 20:34 ExO_ wrote: You can argue semantics all you want, but to list 4, then specifically mention 1 other implies 5 pretty heavily. Otherwise why add legion commander to the list you mentioned? Especially as viper. Viper is the most boring ass hero in dota and for him to have a complicated role like this makes no sense. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to use this argument, but I cannot see a world in which the game designers used Viper (one of the heroes with the smallest amount of lore and fewest "rivals") to be this super complicated role with interactions to all of these different heroes. You are lying. What is different? To my reading, and from reading his overall filter, TownExo questions peoples motivation for what they do. ScumExo instead goes after semantics, fishing for "hey, you clearly scumslipped here with that line" What did we have in this game? When he started firing back at Calix, this actually was more fitting to what I described as his town meta. But what I missed later was a continuation on this theme. But nothing came. So in this regard his play here seems somewhere between the two games I skimmed over. At this point I'm inclined to scumlean Exo. This leaves me with the "problem" that I now have 3 scumleans, which is one too many. And neither Foreman nor NU really convinced me to change my opinion on them. I guess I will have to take a step back and read again, as one must be obviously wrong. | ||
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On November 03 2016 19:58 Calix wrote: An answer to the parts which are the most pertinent to you would be lovely, yes, given that you are the subject of the posts. However, if you are going to do something else then I would prefer to see that first. As long as you don't expect me to forget about my points on you then you should be fine. Can you just expand on your second paragraph? How do you usually find scum in games? What is your MO? MO? Sorry, I only know abbreviations I picked up during the 2 games I read. But regarding on how I scan for scum IRL, I think I pointed it out enough. I try to interpret everyones actions from a townie POV and from a scum POV. At some point I will fail to create those interpretations and this is where I dig deeper. Scum has usually 2 options: a) make up stuff b) reinforce shitty assumptions by townies Meanwhile a townie sees what I see. So if I feel myself completely unable to follow the line of thought of a player, this is a scumlean for me. In the end, I have to judge if the different judgements made by other players are due to different character or due to hidden agenda. And well... I prefer to play a rather high volume game, just to leave less gaps and more easily track the thought process of people. Sadly this is much harder online than IRL, as players can just go afk here.. | ||
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Mainly I'm interested in: - why does he town NU - why does he town Foreman - I can see people not agreeing my concerns regarding foreman, but seriously, what has he done to make him a townread???) - what makes foley scummy? - "hates post" okay... Tell me more. Share your thought process. I haven't seen any reasoning on those reads and admit they don't make sense to me. | ||
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In case you consider lynching me and want to throw questions at me... I would love to answer them before. | ||
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If you lynch me, I would prefer my death to be meaningful. :D If all my posts were about myself, this would not really fulfill this goal. | ||
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I answered your case earlier. On November 03 2016 19:47 mahrgell wrote: @Calix Do you expect an answer from me on this? I could go on a wild ramble about your entire posts, but I'm afraid I would fall back into what was criticized before. So if you want anything answers, please cut it short in some questions. | ||
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On November 04 2016 00:37 Skynx wrote: Bad stuff: Mahg Bolded gives two opposite directions of having a lean on Exo. "Wierd and pointless" for a scum perspective for overreaction and "pressure and get the game going" for town perspective. He looks quite uncertain about both regards by his specific wording. I explained my way of thinking often enough, I will try to find explanations for behavior from both POV. Exactly as I did there. By now I figured this gets me sr rather often. But no, I won't change it. I still believe in it being the good way, and if you are willing to read my posts from the POV i explained several times, I hope you can understand them better. Is it different from the "lets ignore all interpretations that dont fit my case and just point at one side of the medal" approach, that is so prominent here? Yes. Is it worse? I don't know, I don't think so. But maybe having both approaches in the game is actually helpful. Here I would prefer to have you read it without filters... How things went down: - Calix and Exo engange, Exo scumblames Calix (and I consider him weird) - Foreman joins the fun, charging at Calix - Exo turns silent. This for the moment looked like a typical "start something and then go quiet as soon as someone else takes over". So to fill the gap and keep Exo responsible, all I wanted is to have an update on his position. I got the update, this was all I needed. On November 03 2016 21:42 mahrgell wrote: And well... I prefer to play a rather high volume game, just to leave less gaps and more easily track the thought process of people. Sadly this is much harder online than IRL, as players can just go afk here.. All I wanted. Keep track. Have him state again if he has changed his mind or if he is still on it. May turn out useful later, may lead to nothing. Mind you this is like the only thing going on in the thread other than Calix vs NU. Then he goes after NU, accusing him of not following up on Exo vote and posts this. Where is your follow up on Exo then? Nobody asked me about Exo, and I had an active talking point I wanted to explore first. If this is the same to you as refusing to answer a very clearly directed question... Can't help you. | ||
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On November 04 2016 01:44 NeverUnlucky wrote: mahr, still here? Back again now. I at first just wanted to answer skynx post about me. You want me to answer the rest of skynx post? or anything else? | ||
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On November 04 2016 01:57 NeverUnlucky wrote: I would like you to read my answers to Calix and re-adjust your read if applicable. ^^ Haha, let's see if we can readjust this Most of what you posted towards Calix actually does not really concern me. I don't share too many points with Calix on you, and your explanations on why you now consider Calix to be scummy again do not weaken my own ideas. But there was one part which in a way also adressed my points. On November 04 2016 00:45 NeverUnlucky wrote: Breaking my ‘promise’ to keep discussion civil : I have never made such a promise. It was the way I approached the game at first, trying to favor discussion by being civil. This is due to feedback I’ve received last game, and keeping a positive thread atmosphere being one of the three town leader ‘pillars’. I also do not see why you are scum-reading me for this. I had a pro-town intention at the start of the game. There is even a progression in my posts showing how I went from ‘‘let’s be nice’’ to toxic. It’s not an inconsistency if there is clear progression of my mood/tone. Flip-flopping my read on you : Fair enough, though I’m kind of always doing that, so I don’t really think it’s AI. Let's say it like this: Your defense reads as "because I'm emotional". This is, at least in the case of this game and how it developed, not a trait helpful to town, but I also said, that sometimes things looking like antitown play can be explained by character. I consider you good enough to be aware of your image, especially towards me, as you know exactly what I know about you regarding meta. So I consider it to be a clever mafia play, or well.. you just cant escape yourself as townie. Call it Null! Can be both. (in before someone calls me scum for presenting both my interpretations again) About the Calix vs NU, I at this point think you both are again clouded in emotion. That's why I asked you multiple times for reads outside of Calix, as I consider those way more useful to town, and those would also help me to judge you better. Your NonCalix conversation also drags in others, while at this point nobody else wants to take part in your private grudge duel. So it also gives more to read from other people. This is something you very lately improved on. This is actually tempting me to move you back to Null. For me you are certainly not the guaranteed town you are claiming yourself to be, but the more reasonable NU is also certainly worth keeping around. So for me my topscum are now Foremen (since my vote on him I haven't seen any post by him making me change my mind the slightest...) and Exo (explained earlier in my post with the metastuff). At this point I would like to reevaluate Skynx and Foley, but not sure I can get it before family time :/ | ||
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On November 04 2016 02:16 darthfoley wrote: Why do you "like this thinking" if you admit that his first point is null and you don't respond to the second point? If it's all null or NAI, what is there to like? TT's discussion of Rels seems super off to me. I can indeed see a townish interpretation to what Rels said here and can see myself saying the same(stylewise, not in this specific case), so I disagree with you for now. But I would actually like Rels to answer this himself, to see if his motivation matches my thoughts. But regarding the VT-claim... I consider this massively overblown. Honestly, every role in the game can find a good explanation to VT-claim. At least IRL I'm quite sure I have seen games with everyone VT claiming in the first 5 minutes. I was more surprised by his explosive defense than by the original claim. I would have probably just laughed it off as something normal. | ||
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Ticktock says two lines before that you shouldn't compare games with Rels, because of his variability, then gives him a slight townlean based off of what can only be characterized as meta analysis off of previous games. Why would you think his scum play is likely to play out one way or another when you've just admitted that he has various playstyles? Again, I disagree. I consider the first line to be a metaanalysis on activity (= you cant meta him on activity). While the second is more of an analysis on general town/scumtraits. Imho you are just tunneling here, and try to spin things so they fit your foregone conclusion. | ||
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I can't find them myself, but I would love some eye opener. | ||
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① NeverUnlucky - null - as just explained here, I'm going back to Null on him. My original points can be clever scum play by him or just his current ragemode. I basically liked his non-Calix reads, but keeps the quantity of that useful stuff low by always going back on Calix. Will reevaluate at a later day when topics have shifted and I have seen more from him. ② Calix - townlean - Calix started out good, stirring up dust, causing conversations. Her last couple of hours were kinda useless, as she was busy with NU. I will for now dismiss this mudfight like I did with NU. What puts Calix above NU is the fact that while I can see an agenda in NUs play especially with my doubts about him earlier, I don't see it with Calix, as I valued her openning far more. But similar to NU, I wish to see other topics discussed to reevaluate. ④ Foreman - scumlean - I for now write scumlean instead of scum. Simply because there must be something I'm missing here. For no reason seeral people have him toptown??? What is it? Am I really tunneling here? But if no good argument is brought, he remains my #1 lynch ⑤ Rels - Neut I explained myself here. I'm waiting on his answers before I start judging. ⑥ darthfoley - townlean I want to revisit him as soon as I have time. I actually envy his clean posting style, it is something I have to learn from. For now his thought process seem calm, looking in all directions and I can follow his ideas well. The ability to concede a point, when receiving an explanation is very refreshing. As said, he will be revisited soon. Not only to reevaluate my judgement on him but also to go through his points again. ⑦ Tictock - townlean TT is very similar to foley for me so far in what I got from him. Clearly structured, easy to read and reasonable cases with a logical thought process. Also on my filterdive list. ⑧ ExO_ - scumlean Everything I said here is still true to me, as he hasnt posted since then. As it looks like I won't get any support for a Foreman wagon, Exo is my clear second choice for a lynch. ⑨ Skynx - Neut The third player I want to filterdive/reevaluate. More then half of his posts are just insulting others about bad style without him doing anything. He made those 2 wot posts... I answered the part about me, I will have to check the rest again. If there is a race between Skynx and anyone but Exo/Foreman he would get my vote, but this is more a policy lynch than anything else. I hope I don't have to do it. (or I find time to investigate him again before the deadline, so I can have a more informed opinion on him) | ||
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On November 04 2016 04:01 darthfoley wrote: So the majority of my read on you is based off of your interactions with mahrgell. Although nothing you've done has screamed uber town, small things like you not really giving a shit about how people view your playstyle leads me to believe that you're playing your own style and not trying to conform to "please" other towns. Basically the antithesis of buddying. I liked this post specifically This is a bit of a segue, but mahrgell says a townie sees what I see. So if I feel myself completely unable to follow the line of thought of a player, this is a scumlean for me So naturally, you'd think he would scum read Rels, after all... and eventually, in his last large post, claims that he views Rels neutrally. Which doesn't make sense considering his prescribed stance from earlier. This scum read of mine of mahrgell helps me consider you to be town. Why'd you change your vote off of mahrgell to Skynx? Phonepost... Read again. I said i want rels explanations before i judge. So far i see: Controversial reads, not even trying to blend in - townish Reads lacking reasons - scummish I want him to explain himself. If i can make sense out of how he came to his reads... that makes him towny for me. If i cant: i consider him more scummish | ||
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On November 04 2016 04:58 darthfoley wrote: TL;DR mahrgell's read on Rels is surprisingly safe considering that Rels is viewing town completely opposite from mahrgell; this is a supposed scum tell from earlier, yet he doesn't scum tell him. I'm arguing more for mahrgell being sus than Rels btw. The team thing was a little facetious Wtf? I have Rels on null. With a clear anouncement that I consider him scumlean if he does not deliver a good explanation. Are you even reading? And as you asked for the contrast to Foreman: I asked him out too. just that he refused any kind of answer with his amazing style, and went on doing exactly what I criticized. If Rels continues doing completely unfounded reads you are right, he will be the same as Foreman. But so far... he has not responded, so I keep him on Null. If he wonnt respond at all until end of the day... I will go with what I said so for: scumlean him. (which in return would have to make me rethink my other scumleans... having too many is not a situation im comfortable with) | ||
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I was referencing to a post you answered just before earlier: On November 04 2016 05:48 Rels wrote: I townread NU mainly for a pretty bad reason: that he posted his "mafia metric" team. This is a pretty awful reason 'cause it's based on out-of-the-game thing but that's my main reason to believe NU is town. Outside of that his attitude is also pretty townie and matches the town meta I know of him. Foreman, I read a lot of posts where he was just blunt and not posting BS. I think his tone is super townie. DF I'll have to reread, I just thought his entrance post was super bad. More on everything when I'm caught up and can reread filters. Okay, I understand your NU point. I noticed this as well, but what struck me with that was something else: At the point NU posted it (here)... not even a day had passed. In fact he claimed to have sent it during the night before. Well... At this point in time mafiametrics were supposed to be sent in every 24 hours. So either NU sucks badly at reading what cakepie wrote... Or he simply didn't read it because he isn't invited to participate in it anyway and used this badly prepared "towntell" for someone like you to pick it up. --- Foreman: I see where you are coming from, again. Honestly, if you are right, I would consider it rather sad, but I guess the "be a dick" meta is really the current thing. But here I still lack any attempt by Foremen to progress the game. Okay, let him be blunt, let him be the noBS type. But what did he contribute? At this point I actually question myself, as I seem to be the only one not liking Foremen. But I simply can't get it. All reasons for him to be town sound like yours "He doesnt give a fuck about others". Yeah, but maybe it would be a useful trait to actually give a fuck about others. --- DF: You were asked by others too, what struck you as bad about DFs initial post? I have enough reason to reconsider DF myself in the light of the latest posts, but while I didn't consider his first post as outstanding novelty, I didn't get the same shitty feeling you described having. --- Rels, yourself: Actually, I would like to hear more from you. At this point it looks like we are coming from very different angles. Our reads are still kinda diametral opposites. I could accept your Foreman and NU reasoning, also I explained why I think different. That thing about the first DF post feels off to me, so feel free to clarify. | ||
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On November 04 2016 07:06 Rels wrote: Now the only redeeming thing in DF filter is his push on mahrgell. mahrgell has been super careful with his reads all game and it's true he's again hiding behind "I'll wait for Rels' answers!" to not commit a read on me. I'm available for some time, so let's talk it out and we will get to something. | ||
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On November 04 2016 07:13 Calix wrote: Not gonna lie, I have yet to send in a single MafiaMetric read. Clearly a scumtell!!! + Show Spoiler + | ||
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On November 04 2016 07:15 NeverUnlucky wrote: mahr, with cakepie's announcement, I'm pretty much mod-confirmed. Is this your thing? Trying to modconfirm yourself day1? | ||
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On November 04 2016 07:18 NeverUnlucky wrote: I did not actively try to reach this status. You just actively used it and brought it up. And yes, I guess cakepies post indeed softhints at you being a townie. This in a way saddens me, because I consider it gameruining. | ||
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On November 04 2016 07:21 Rels wrote: NU: I disagree, this kind of thing comes more often from town than not. And I had the proof last game that NU really plays like that as town. About the 24h thing, actually scum fakeclaims are in general way more clean than town fakeclaims. Foreman: well on a meta level I agree with you, but it is true regardless. Foreman's tone is townie. DF: read further and you'll find things. You're not a newb right ? Can you link to your own forum ? This is my first forum mafia game but I have RL mafia experience. If you really wish, this can be confirmed, but that is out-of-game stuff. About DF: I was specifically asking about your judgement on his first post. You mentioned several times you "hate it", disliked it etc.. If you have detailed this more in some answer, I missed it. Can you link me? I said, that the more recent DF posts have been changing my view, but I lacked the time to fully go over him again. | ||
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Thanks for quoting. Now I had to put this side to side with Foleys post to understand what you were going at, as I remembered it completely different. I finally see where you are coming from. I completely missed this indirect mention of Skynx. This actually clarifies this to me as well, so I'm fine with you. As Calix insists on my giving a clear verdict, if it wasn't clear yet: Rels: townlean | ||
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On November 04 2016 07:47 Foreman wrote: Hard to give a fuck about people I don't know. It's a personality thing. Even moreso when it comes to online interactions. Does the fact I'm distant and cold make me scum? If so, prepare to mislynch me consistently for at least a few months. I could go into detail about why I can come across a bit harsh, but I think that would best be discussed after the game. Well... took the time the time to reread your entire filter under this assumption of your playstyle/character, which was also suggested by Rels before. Looking at it this way, I will concede, that it does not look as scummy as what I had in mind. Still most of it it consists out of snarky comments or you calling someones post bullshit. There were some useful and original parts on Skynx though. With this in mind, I'm feeling to correct my read on you to Neut again. A Neut with a playstyle I don't like, but well.. Will have to deal with it and remember it reading your future posts. With that... I need some new vote target. ##Unvote Lemme check Exo again, he was my #2 and posted new stuff... Back in a bit. | ||
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On November 04 2016 07:46 darthfoley wrote: I can answer the Skynx stuff when I'm not in a movie for class, but I'm putting my vote on mahrgell. He STILL hasn't said anything conclusive or definitive. He keeps asking the same things to the same people to stall and buy time. He's also using the OMGIS first game defense now. I remember my first forum game (This is my fourth) and I rolled scum. I play a ton of IRL mafia and I'm pretty good at it, but I was terrible with trying to forge reads as scum G1. I can't remember the title of the game but it was on TL. I see a lot of parallels between my playstyle that game, and his play style in this game. Outside of this, I've already written content on my mahrgell scum read. Look through my filter if you want a refresher. Also find it interesting that he peaches out with all his reads for family time, then as soon as I put heat on him, he finds the time to go semi filter diving and engage with people again. ##Vote: mahrgell I was specifically asked about it. WTF? What answer would you have not called "using first game" ? And I didn't even use it myself. I did not expect Rels to suddenly free me of doubt, and I don't expect anyone to do it. I don't consider myself a noob at mafia, but admittedly I have no experience in forum mafia. | ||
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##Vote Exo_ Writing up my reasoning in a bit. So far I have 2 more players on my todo pile: DF and Skynx. I will probably try to squeeze those in some time after sleeping and between family ^.^ | ||
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1)my original post about Exo: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26146963 Nothing I said there really changed, even with the newer posts. Honestly while he always calls other ppl to read the tread, his posts don't really strike me as if he had read the thread so far. I guess I have to honorary mention that at least he doesn't ask for summaries all the time. Great upgrade. 2) On November 03 2016 04:46 ExO_ wrote: How can you be so hesitant to scum read anyone? All of your reads come built in with "but I might be wrong." You back pedal on everything you've said so far and leave yourself a way out. Almost as if you are afraid to hard scum read somebody because you know you are lying. I'm quite convinced you are scum leaving yourself as many outs as possible. Okay. I can follow this idea. But... How on earth have you not gone after me? So far pretty much everyone in the thread confirms me as the "King of leaving outs". Even I do that. And yet, you haven't once mentioned me? Seriously? I should be your topscum. At this point, if it wasn't about me, I would actually call you out for distancing. In fact i'm surprised nobody did that yet. 3) Again, are you serious? You come back in the thread, after 13 hours, and all you do to start is an uncommented vote, and when asked this is your reason this is everything? I mean... at least whine about not having time, etc. But all you had to say on those 180 posts that happened in the meantime was that. Stunning! Actually you promised to look into NU and FM first in your last post before the break. You engaged FM later, but all you did was telling him to learn to read. There was no analysis of him whatsoever. Similarly you also tangled with NU, starting with this post: On November 04 2016 06:30 ExO_ wrote: Calix hasn't tunneled anyone. You're full of shit Again not what I would call an analysis. You later gave some weak reads on NUs latest posts, but the "I will look into NU" results posts is still to be seen. 4) Your obsession about your VT claim. Your entire defense seems to be "but I claimed VT" I still can't make sense of it. The way you present it here, claiming VT is the ultimative move early day1. Everyone should do it, and nobody doing it should ever be lynched day1 except by scum players. I'm not buying it. And honestly you can't believe that yourself. Either you completely lack the ability to imagine how others may view the game, or this is just some horrible play. And you repeating it again and again doesnt make it better. If you want to convince me... Try another approach. I'm open to arguments, but that VT bullshit is really tiring me and your obsession with it is making you look more scummy in my eyes. I read your town game. You did much better there. If you are town this game, you are awful. I don't think you are awful from what I've seen, but just feel reminded of your rather similar dota2 scum performance. | ||
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On November 04 2016 08:42 ExO_ wrote: NU is actively borrowing his reads for rels in an attempt to push me, with Marhgwell being 3rd on a wagon. Marhgwell is scum, and probably NU LOL. Are you even reading? You were my #2 scum for almost the entire thread. When I unvoted (because I could follow FMs argument), I already said, that I will look into next, as you are the logical choice. This deeper look convinced me that my original read on you was correct. So get your timeline right. | ||
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On November 04 2016 08:29 NeverUnlucky wrote: Would you kindly summarize what your reads now look like? My more recent and confident ones: Scum: Exo_ Neut: FM Townlead: Calix, NU, Rels I want to reevaluate TT, Skynx and DF next. DF posted a lot of stuff, and it seemed to not match my image of him and at some point he went completely off when accusing me. But I may be biased on the stuff he writes about me, so I have to reread his filter and I will probably focus on the stuff not concerning me to make my judgement. From first impression I would tend scumlean though.I hope to ind time tmrw for it. Skynx is Neut in my mind so far, mainly because I didn't pay much attention to his posts besides the onne paragraph directed at me. From memory he posted mostly useless stuff early, but later had 2 wot against me and 3 other players. Then his TT case. I will focus on those. (I actually wanted to do that earlier... but somehow kept busy) TT I would townlean from memory. But I want to check the case made against him. If I currently Neut Skynx, while having a scum+scumlean, this would make Skynx by process of elimination a townie and his case must have some substance. Also iirc Exo jumped on it. If it was completely fabricated, this would mean the the entire scumteam went allin here... Then again, Exo jumping on it actually makes TT and Skynx look better. But this is now too much speculation, and I will warm this up once we have a flip. Anyway... I just want to read TT again | ||
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You always claim you have too many townreads. But in this game, if you are town you should see 6 town and 2 mafia. So yes... Most people should look townish. I haven't seen you townread EVERYONE so far... so... I'm sure there are two left. Which brings me to: Would you care to update me on your current scum->town ranking of the players here? | ||
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With that I will now finally go to sleep. As time may be rare tomorrow, who do you suggest to look into first out of TT,DF and Skynx? I guess you are valueing Skynx highly, so could you maybe give me a summary how you came to this? And then I would start with one of the other two. Probably DF, as TT seems to be tied to skynx. DF seems to be upset with me though and I don't feel like revenge reading ^.^ I doubt anything useful will come from his. | ||
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At this point I'm actually a bit surprised how I'm suddenly everybodys darling. I guess I want to look i this progression too, as I feel kinda buddied here. Then again... lets flip Exo first... This certainly will provide interesting information. | ||
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On November 05 2016 03:06 NeverUnlucky wrote: I think mahrgell's post at EoD about the lynch being informative was really really scummy. Yeah, considering that I was probably the main driving force behind the Exo-lynch. Indeed. I have to conclude I'm scum now. Can I vote myself? On a more serious note: I was mainly going at the fact that with the lynch, which I really wanted to go through, there may more urgent topics or me to look into may pop up. Well... I'm honestly not sure if this mislynch is more informative than a scum lynch. I admire Exos EoD effort, but I have difficulty making sense of it. Let's add another point to my task list. I'm still in fmily time, but should work down my list from tmrw noon until EoN, just in case. | ||
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On November 05 2016 03:10 Calix wrote: I just wanted ExO/ Calix highlighted green since those are the confirmed alignments to me. But don't bother. Better to do it after the night kill tbh. Can you please do it before EoN? Reason should be obvious. Announcing to do analysis after EoN is something I certainly dislike. | ||
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On November 05 2016 03:13 NeverUnlucky wrote: Tictock was the main driving force followed by Rels. As ExO stated, you were the "3rd". Apathy noted. I answered this "you were third" thingie to Exo already. How about reading? | ||
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On November 05 2016 03:34 darthfoley wrote: Mahrgell is always talking about what he's gonna do: he's been supposed to look into me, skynx and TT 18 hours ago. How many times can you say you're gonna filter dive before you do it? Why are you asking other people who you should look into? Why is mahrgell claiming he would be "revenge reading?" He town leans me, so why would looking through my filter be useless? These posts were made 18 hours ago, and 1 hour ago. I DO NOT LIKE Dig deeper my friend. I announced yesterday afternoon that I'm with my family from yesterday evening until saturday noon. Yes, I had another posting spree in the night, when I sneaked away. Still my activity is drastically reduced compared to the first 26 hours right now. Expect me back tomorrow as noon. And you may also continue reading up on peoples lists. I appeared as toptown and close to toptown on several lists. And I don't consider this to be a good thing, tbh. | ||
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Getting suddenly toptowned by people for no apparent reason is something I dislike And at this point I'm kinda triggered by everyone going meta on me and talking about it being my first game. Maybe it is my hurt ego, but I consider everyone saying "I townread mahrgell, because it is his first game and he puts in effort" as going for the cheap route. Especially as people can townread me this way, while avoiding to actually talk about what I post about other players. | ||
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oh, and if I have sudden bursts of aggression, its CUZ FUCK HABS AND FUCK MICHEAL THERRIEN FOR RUINING MY NIGHT. AND CAN WE JUST LYNCH NU? Finished reading up, I 100% sign Calix last post, and will now go down my own task list. If anyone else wants to chat or has more urgent stuff... just tell me. Before I start though, some words at the Exo lynch. I reread his filter at night, after I had some distance. Reread my case. Thought where I could/should have gone elsewhere. Besides the last 10 minutes... I can't find it. Even when he started his last posting spree, I was still very convinced this was just some last ditch emotion attempt to save his skin, more reminding me of vivax day1 in dota. And this is kinda frustrating to me. I feel like "would lynch again". This shouldn't be, but is. But this kinda influences my view on how I see others peoples interactions with the Exo_ lynch. Still will look for inconsistencies there though. There were a few things disturbing me greatly towards the end of the day, but I want to reread this to check if this was just my first impression or if it remains when going over it with some distance. | ||
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Going to bed, I was sure this would result in a scumlean for me, but looking at his filter this seems from some kind of defence reflex when accused with weird arguments. Yes, I'm still salty when he made up shit like me "using OMGIS" after I responded to a very clear question.... But overall his filter reads really good and I can follow his line of thought. But in the evening I actually marked myself one post of him, which stuck out. Like probably the main post I got bad vibes from him. It was this one. Reading it from the filter doesn't make it special, but reading it fom thread progression is different. What really annoyed me there was, that at the time the post was made, the convo was basically all on Exo. I felt I had defended all of DF's attacks on me quite well and those issues should be solved. Yet he comes in, during the Exo convo, and feels like throwing in shit at me again and try to distract the exo train. If Exo_ would have flipped red, I think I would have went after DF for this post alone. But Exo_ was green. I simply can't see a mafia doing that post at that time in the thread, when they should be jerking off in mafia QT how great this mislynch is doing. I guess if it spawns a LynchTownExo vs LynchTownMahrgell debate this could be somehow still okay for Mafia, but... why risk votes scattering and who knows what happens next? At this time the EoD was still rather far away. So DF townlean for me now. | ||
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On November 05 2016 21:48 NeverUnlucky wrote: actually nvm, explain it, im wrong here and a still a lil intoxicated yesterday i played the habs drinking game (drink one can every time they get scored on) with my friends they lost 10-0 I was watching Habs. It was so sad. So I decided to read this thread for a bit. I read On November 05 2016 08:38 NeverUnlucky wrote: habs are getting rekt 3 goals in 4 mins I hated my life even more. I hate you. Please die. | ||
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First: Calix said, when I asked her about Skynx: "I tr Skynx, because scum doesnt dare to play FU-all". Now I have only read Dota2, he was scum, and he used pretty much the same style from early on. From all the posts about Skynx meta I conclude, that this seems to be his town meta too... So... This isn't really swaying me in one direction or the other. ust to get this out of the way. --- + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2016 00:37 Skynx wrote: Bad stuff: Mahg Bolded gives two opposite directions of having a lean on Exo. "Wierd and pointless" for a scum perspective for overreaction and "pressure and get the game going" for town perspective. He looks quite uncertain about both regards by his specific wording. Then this happens: Exo replies yes. Mahg says nothing. Mind you this is like the only thing going on in the thread other than Calix vs NU. Then he goes after NU, accusing him of not following up on Exo vote and posts this. Where is your follow up on Exo then? --- Calix All started with this: Bolded sentence implies a scumread, as if someone thinks a sane person would do something illogical from a town perspective that would suggest it would be a logical move from scum perspective. This gets noticed, and called out by many including Exo, NU, Foreman and magh? if i remember correctly and see how much defence there is for "I didn't scumread Exo". I'm spoilering them cuz they are just so many. + Show Spoiler + On November 03 2016 03:23 Calix wrote: I'm not pushing ExO. That's being extremely generous. I never claimed that ExO was scummy, just illogical. I didn't even call him defensive. Where did you get that from? On November 03 2016 03:35 Calix wrote: This is another example of anti-town behaviour which I do not agree with. That is NOT the same as pro-scum. Allow me to clear that one up. Some people seem to be misinterpreting my stance on ExO as "scum-lean" when it's not. On November 03 2016 03:40 Calix wrote: Correction. I am not voting for ExO and you should be suspicious of me if I was given that you (correctly) think I am not scum-reading him. See my previous response for my take on anti-town/ pro-scum. On November 03 2016 04:01 Calix wrote: With regards to Point 2, he is much tamer when he is scum. I'm not claiming that this is a 100% guaranteed tell (he is also busy and this has led to him being more subdued in the past) but it's in the back of my mind. Well in my opinion, this is how it went down: - He asks why ExO is being overly defensive. - I call ExO anti-town. - He misrepresented my positions by claiming that he agreed that I was a) scum-reading ExO and b) scum-reading ExO due to being overly defensive. - I ask him where he interpreted this from as those are not my positions. - He denies claiming this. - I tell him that he literally said in his quote "I agree with Calix" This is where the scummy part is. He immediately backtracks from that position by saying "well I don't agree" and leaves it at that. That's scummy because this progression could be NU trying to plant ideas inside of my head without actually taking responsibility for having the idea. This is a compelling explanation because the ExO/ Calix discussion was still going on at this time. Thus, it's possible that he was trying to manipulate me into agreeing that ExO's behaviour is scummy. It's also possible because I am well-known for getting myself into tunnels so I am a viable target. So yeah, discuss and all that. On November 03 2016 05:10 Calix wrote: Fact-check. I never stated a scum-read on ExO. "all pushes are very subjective" - It's Day 1. Of course they are going to be 'subjective'. In fact, almost every single push in the history of mafia is 'subjective'. That doesn't mean you just do nothing since town has to be proactive to gain information, etc etc. This is all very obvious stuff so I won't drone on. With that in mind, your approach is very hard to understand to me. On November 03 2016 05:17 Calix wrote: Stating that someone's illogical =/= scum-read, Skynx dear. As for mahrgell, if you're using mind melds to inform a read then that's fine. But from my point of view, I don't get the same impression when it's vice versa. I would have to see you post things first that I agreed with before I would make that read. It's mostly been you agreeing with me if I recall correctly so I can see where you're coming from in terms of perspective. The whole thing is just so bullshit. Ofc you imply that he is scum. How can you say that he is being anti-town but at the same time say that "sorry guys he's anti-town but I'm not scumreading him"? What was the point of that in the end? Obviously nothing, you tried something as a scum and got called out and had to backpaddle for next 5 pages try to bury it. ---- Foreman Very dodgy vote for "overanalyzing = tryhard" or w/e. Gets called out by Calix, as his vote came after NU with very little reasoning behind. First, it was not a push. You voted Calix for absolutely nothing scum indicative then call his callout discrediting you. You didn't have a push. You voted, then made up reasons for it cuz the vote was shit: The so called "tryhard and overanalyzing" transformed into "going after low hanging fruit and motivating people to behave anti-town" - accuses 3 players of scummish behaviour/mistakes - no followup or conclusion. - Should this be read as "you are scum" or as a "you are town but suck"? - If it is the first, I would expect him to follow up on it. But he did not. - If it is the second, shouldn't it be in his interest to guide them to the light, instead of shading them with this aimless post. If you consider them shitty town mates, you need them! To me this posts fits a scum agenda. From a mafia POV: He spots legitimate weaknesses by townies, brings them up, casts doubt, but no follow up. --- Instead he followed it up with a case on TT. Uhm... Yeah. I can't really follow it. At this point TT was mostly untouched, and this was like a "Look, I'm a cool guy and go for someone no one ever went for" This isn't a bad thing, but when doing it I would have expected something more convincing. But this case reads weaker than what he brought against Calix or me just the post before. --- I'm split on his post on NU It kinda ignores the maybe-softconfirm on NU... But in general it voices a lot of concerns I have with NU. I can't make up my mind how to interpret doing such a post against a softconfirm (without detailing why you doubt the softconfirm). I can find good explanations and bad explanations, so maybe someone else wants to share his opinion on that. --- Finally a list post: Who doesn't love those. On November 05 2016 01:35 Skynx wrote: Summary Very town: mahg Townlean: Exo, Calix Not read at all: darth Bad but not thoroughly read:Foreman Nullish cuz neither town nor scum but bad: Rels Scum: TT, NU I pushed mahg earlier, his respons I liked. His lists later on I liked. He's not overly spammy. He's the most town imo. Exo's retaliation is a towntell from my perspective as he's been sr'd by almost everyone in the game, some of which for very bad reasons or no reasons at all. Its his right to retaliate. However not much arguments otherise, he's just been defending all game, I've been in this situation and can sympathise. Calix is quite null actually this was hard to decide. His early game has been bad a he should know better by now after 3 games here that him vs NU just results in them filling filters and nothing else. He needs more thorough read for sure. I'm mostly townreading him on tone which I'm kinda confident after playing with him often in past few months, which i know is bad but its the best i can do atm. Darth had that conspiracy about his opinion on me as a reason Rels and some others scumread, which doesn't mean anything imo but need to read him later on. I just got the feeling he's not been bad overall. I don't like Foreman's over-aggressive tone. He didn't get much going against him but why so aggressive then? He most definitely needs a re-read, I think he's been flying under the radar. Read above for opinions on Rels. Read cases in filter for opinions on NU and TT. I bolded the part that triggers me. Okay, he doubted me at first, later said he liked my reasoning in a oneliner. Suddenly I'm toptown. Wow, quick progression, but he posted an explanation why this is the case, okay. I bolded the key part. His next town is Exo. Didn't I just spent the largest part of my more recent post (at this time) volume on casing Exo? He even asks in his next post for cases on Exo and questions why I'm voting him. WTF? - You liked my posts? But hadn't yet found a case on exo? - You liked my posts, but don't know why I'm voting him? - You call me out for having no reasoning in my vote, but call me your toptown? --- + Show Spoiler + On November 05 2016 01:56 Skynx wrote: I'll build up on both TT and NU cases in the night to convince more people i guess. I feel like Exo lynch will only strengthen my point. Again, I bolded the part that struck me. (this same line is repeated few posts later) This posts starts a build up I really don't like. He never doubts for a moment that Exo could be scum. His best reasoning for Exo not being scum were some emotells on retaliation and everything. It's okay to believe Exo to be town. But 100% sure he is town? No way. But from this point on, Skynx started his campaign of: "I defended Exo all the time, Exo flips Green, I'm the good guy." He later on confirms my case to be convincing, yet his question at Exo is again "what you thing about foreman and Mahrgell?" What am I? Toptown? unreasoned voter? convincing? scumsus again? What a rollercoaster. --- I somehow liked this post. So I expected some critical thinking now. Some arguments. But I was let down. The problem I see is: in all those posts he confirms how he believes this to be a mislynch. He defends Exo_ lightly. But... I fail to see where he tried to change it. If he was so sure of this to be wrong, why not change the track? Again push for another lynch, convince people to hop off Exo, and follow Skynx read. This all reads like "please lynch Exo, so I'm proven correct that he is good". He started casting doubt on Exo voters motivation. But this is not what was needed here to save Exo. What was needed was another train. Throwing one vote around randomly isn't doing that. He was more concerned about being right than about changing the lynch. --- He later again picked a fight with NU. I actually share his concerns regarding NU again but now as I wrote this all up... This actually started with quite some time left before lynch. And he promised t make a case on NU during the night. Oh, great. Exactly what is needed to save someone you are sure to be town from a mislynch. I feel much worse about Skynx now than before writing. I originally felt like he was Neut, maximum a slight scumlean. But at this point I'm strongly scum leaning him. My case on Exo was mostly due to his seemingly complete lack of town agenda. But with Skynx... At this point I can see a full blown scum agenda here. All I see him do it throwing around shade at virtually everyone. He then pulls back, and goes at it again with someone else. Most of those shade throws are not tied to any consequence. (I'm aware that I'm very fond of doing that too, but I explained my reasoning and I believe that my play style is very different from Skynx) And this buildup for the Exolynch just triggers me hard. | ||
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I should stop rambling and condense more. | ||
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I see a very clear and continuous scum agenda in most of his posts: 1) casting doubt on everyone, never following up He went after myself, Foremen and Calix multiple times, pointing out our scummish behaviour, never ever with any followup. Rels gets doubted too at some point. Even in the middle of his "I stand with Exo" he had to post this as if he made sure that nobody takes his "defense of Exo" too serious His issues with NU and TT are another story. Looks like only DF got away without getting shaded. 2) his case on TT: his reasoning looked weaker than what he posted 2 minutes earlier against Calix and me, yet he chose to go after TT. He even announced "you have to do more to avoid a lynch" yet never tried to convince anyone of this lynch. 3) His entire alignment towards me is unfounded: he suspects me, accepts my response, suddenly im Toptown, because "he likes my lists". At this time my main contribution was my case on Exo_ Yet he also townreads Exo, says there are no compelling arguments against him. A few minute later he asks for evidence against Exo_, and points out that 3 players, including me, have no reason at all to vote Exo. He may have missed my case, but then what made him toptown me? How can I be toptown because of my good posts, when those posts are directly attacking his other toptown. How can I be toptown when he calls me out for voting without reason? As the EoD happened, he again called Exo for his opinion on Foreman and me. What am I? toptown? scum? This falls back to 1) 4) His stance in the Exo lynch. He was most concerned about pointing out that he was 100% sure that Exo was town. He stated multiple times that he believes that the mislynch of Exo will show us a lot. Yet I fail to see any serious attempt to convince people to jump off the train. He somehow shaped up NU as alternative, but promised "to make a case against him during the night phase". He never tried to really convince anyone to join the NU train. Or does this count as effort? This again looks like what I pointed out in 1) He weakly defended Exo_ on emotional reasons, yet was 100% he was town. He later admitted that there was some reason in the cases against Exo_, his defense consisted only out of this. No reaching out to change it He was more concerned about being right than about saving someone he believed 100% to flip green. | ||
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oups... Never thought about the liquiddota links... Afaik you can replace the liquiddota with teamliquid manually, but I promise to use tl links in future. Sorry --- And I wrote a tldr, I hope this is better. --- about calix post: I agree with her on FM. I still lack any attempt from him to bring the game forward. All I see are snarky comments excused by him having a shit character. If I'm out of scumleans, this would be my policy lynch by now. | ||
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On November 05 2016 23:32 Calix wrote: By the way mahrgell, what did you think of my Rels case? I'm only really asking because I'm going to die in like, three hours so I'd like an answer before then and you haven't talked about him much as of late. Rels wasn't on top of my todo pile as im still trying to work through that, but I can look into him first. Gimme some minutes. | ||
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On November 05 2016 07:12 Calix wrote: + Show Spoiler + Okay so here's what I think. I don't see anything that really gives me town vibes from Rels, he's in my POE reads and I don't really like him. Kind of want to sleep soon so have some bulletpoints: 1. He feels like he has an agenda with his posts. I get this impression from how strongly he emphasises certain points compared to others. It's like he's trying to achieve X but is also trying to hide that he's trying to achieve X. Examples that pinged me include the following A) his town-read on me. He really wanted me to know about that. Nobody really needed like, four reasons for why I am town when nobody scum-read me at all at that point and it's not like I need to be defended. Terrible priorities at best, scum pocketing me at worst. B) his town-read on Foreman. He defends Foreman because of his tone which I'm noting because I don't think he's ever used tone to read anyone else and he seems really invested in that read. This is a very weak point by itself but I'm wondering if it's an example of Rels showing inherent bias when reading players. c) his discredits of Skynx. I'm referring to EOD where he was saying "well Skynx defending ExO isn't a town tell because Skynx would be aware of how that would look to everyone so it's null" which pinged me because he scum-read ExO so why the fuck would he care about how ExO read Skynx if he thinks ExO is mafia? And who thinks that saying "well this thing that you think is townie is actually null" is a good idea BEFORE someone has flipped anyway? I think Rels knew that ExO would flip town and didn't want Skynx getting town cred for defending the ML. 2. His progression with ExO/ darthfoley. While Rels is attacking darthfoley consistently, he didn't have a problem with switching to ExO by making a case. What's the problem there? ExO was already the leading train. Rels was one of the last voters. All that vote did was secure ExO's lynch and was completely pointless. His vote switch is even weirder because Rels said that ExO was 'very likely town' because of his VT claim earlier and spent a fair bit of time explaining that. And he kept that reasoning in mind but I don't get why he felt the need to switch to ExO when he had that VT claim town-read and felt that DF was scummier. Looked at this. 1) This is something I also noticed. Actually with him defending me against DF. At this time, I think I had established that I'm willing to stand up myself. Throw shade at me, and I will try to bring light into it. DF was the only one going for me, everyone was at Exo already. Why even defend me with a huge post? I won't get lynched by DF alone. I can defend myself. This alone would probably not be weird, but it follows your argument. I just had this feeling, but your examples were not as clear to me before you brought them up giving my intuition more concrete food. In general, rereading his filter he had his case on DF... Except for that, all he did was expanding on other peoples stuff. He defended me, after I needed defense. Same with you or Foreman. He suddenly created large Exo accusations after Exo was already voted by 6 people. Etc. Basically all he ever did was to fight on battle fields where the battle was already over. "Look here, I'm fighting" 1c) I can't make sense of this now. I made clear that Skynx is my scumread right now. If we follow the idea of accusing Rels too... They could make up all kind of shit. If Skynx flips town (or I 180 on my read on him), I would probably come back to this. 2) I can follow your thought process here. I'm seeing how this makes you scumread him. But when I'm doing that thought train myself, I end with a "meh, whatever". He later detailed in great detail why he was suddenly considering Exo to be scum. If we buy that, this swap is legitimate. If we don't buy it, it is imho a repeat of what I described under 1), so not a new point. I'm honestly not that experienced in the meta of "If your target of choice won't happen, what will you do? Confirm an acceptable lynch or stay strong with your target." Trying to read something from it is difficult for me. Conclusion: I see your points, I think you are onto something here. But for me right now Skynx is my priority. I can't exactly bend my head around how that Rels suspicion and my Skynx scumread fit together. Do they fit together? Must one be wrong? (Or both wrong and I just suck at this game...) | ||
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On November 06 2016 00:13 NeverUnlucky wrote: 1) is how I felt when I said that I felt manipulated by Rels. So mahr, I hinted at what I actually detailed in my latest posts regarding DF, Skynx and Rels. The post I had bookmarked from DF: I said I would go after him for that post alone if Exo flipped red. Skynx: His "Exo is 100% town" confused the heck out of me. If Exo would have flipped red, I would have thrown Skynx into a tank full of green paint for being so stubborn. Also his tangle with you had started, and I noticed that this seemingly guaranteed lynch, which rested for several hours as nobody bothered to care anymore was suddenly picking up some surprising movement. Rels I didn't have in minds specifically, but I had noticed before that the dynamics of the accusations against Exo had changed. What happened was that some people went after TTs case, who imho lacked detail. This was an easy target. Then my case was left completely unanswered. And suddenly people fought about it, bringing up more reasons and I wondered what had happened. At that time I was only skimming, trying to keep up but unable to dive deep. But this looked off. Like everyone was fighting for position in this lynch. Rereading that later led to what you find now in the Rels post. | ||
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1) Skynx - explained 2) Rels - explained 3) Foreman - call it policy lynch, but if all the people I consider having scum agendas are dead, I start killing whoever has no town agenda 4) NU - I at some point stopped trying to figure out his thought progression. It only causes knots in my brain. He doesn't strike me as scum, but well... if those above are gone... 5) DF / Calix - I consider those very townish. If I ever doubt Calix, I will probably read her several times mentioned scum game where she was supposedly so great early. DF I detailed my reasons during my last posting spree. The difference between those two is that I have many small reasons for Calix, while for DF it is one big reason (besides his generally nice to read filter) 7) Mahrgell - I like this guy. He can't ever make a short post, but he is still lovely. Don't kill him, please. TT is missing from this list, as I hadn't yet time to evaluate him. From intuition I would put him around 4). But hey, my intuition was also completely thrown out of the window after I read into DF and Skynx. I can't guarantee I can finish TT before EoN though. Doing this mafia thing now almost 100% of my time since my family left. Need a break. | ||
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On November 08 2016 03:11 Half the Sky wrote: They were deciding between Calix and mahrgell. It was obvious to them, and they were right, that Calix was the JK save. You were effectively the medic dodge. I can live with that | ||
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On November 08 2016 03:14 Calix wrote: I third this. I really like your style once we established that it wasn't a scum tell ;p At some point I cursed myself: - it takes a shitload of time, especially as I made a lot of promises of what I would do, and then following up on it... and this took soooooooooo much time and I was like "but shit, if I drop off now, they lynch me again" - it will most likely ruin my next games. I don't think I can hold this up, but no matter if I roll ton or scum... I will always be compared to it and lynched ^^ | ||
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Germany3943 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On November 08 2016 03:55 Calix wrote: Can't wait to obs with him next game. It's going to be so good. Also what did people think of my play this game? I was trying to try out something different but I'm not sure how well I pulled it off. I didn't tunnel anyone for the entirety of Day 1 though, so I think that's a good start even if it's a pitiful step in the right direction Imho you townlocked very quick. But somehow I missed conclusions in your reads. I mean, I'm guilty of that too... But I noticed it with you quite a lot. Oh, and please don't announce "I will vote him for now, this will put pressure on him". No, it won't. You don't have to shout "LOCKSCUM!!!!" to apply pressure (this is the rather childish other extreme, even though very common too^^) but at least make it appear that this is your topscum read and you will lynch if nothing great comes. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
You will always be remember as my first! Nobody can take that from you! | ||
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