EPT[M][N] A Mini With Funny Gifs
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On October 26 2016 19:59 beentheredonethat wrote: Also, I guess for the sake of mobile users we should spoiler our funny gifs. Am i allowed to wonder how you can play mafia when your memory doesn't last 5 minutes? :D | ||
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I want to wait for the post game of the Newbie game before I decide if I want to be a part of this game here. | ||
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do I /in or do I /out? /in /out /in /out /in /out + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/ATK8ZcCOipbSE/giphy.gif) | ||
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![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/l41m1ru9158vPTm2k/giphy.gif) | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/X9urH4x3vlQgE/giphy.gif) /in | ||
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Thanks. In case he does not: /in again  But while I hate pages full of unspoilered gifs, I admit that spoilered gifs are also kinda ruining the fun. :/ | ||
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Lets... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/2BrI8nBUMG2LC/giphy.gif) Or how about... all together... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/7MUA9UDW38llC/giphy.gif) | ||
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 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/xT5LMVs0euUk7vlEB2/giphy.gif) Btw, me = youth? This country? You remind me of Bruce. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/PCykC2DtG1mAU/giphy.gif) | ||
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On November 11 2016 12:31 Shapelog wrote: If I am your Grandpa being only 25. How are you even born? Your dad is 7 years old at the most. You would be -years old, therefore, like negative square roots, you are a imaginary child. Therefore, you must also be the imaginary friend that all the kids have! ![[image loading]](http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif) If only I was this good at catching mafia. You are only 25? lol! Barely hatched!. In that case, I apologize for all wrong I did to you and preemptively also for all wrong I will do to you in the future. I simply can't be mean to kids. Here, take this as my token of friendship: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/YDZEdyi91PS9y/giphy.gif) PS: I like how you concluded that the oldest possible child of a 25yo can be a 7yo. Not sure this fits modern realities though. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlRB6BZFUouENpe/giphy.gif) | ||
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On October 17 2016 05:27 beentheredonethat wrote: Possible Setups (prerequisite: 13 players) 1. "Boring": Cop, Doc vs. RB, Goon, Framer (factional KP) 2. "Uh, okay": Parity Cop, Veteran (2-shot) vs. Godfather, Goon, Framer (factional KP) 3. "dis gon' be gud": Jailkeeper, Cop vs. GF, Goon, Framer (carried KP, with unaware miller) 4. "LOL WUT": All vanilla 5. "really, btdt?": Doc, 2-shot vig vs. Roleblocker, Goon, Bulletproof (1shot) Goon (factional KP) Veteran = Vig? Also I admit I'm not 100% sure how I feel about a setup list where scum has perfect information about the setup right from the start. But I guess it doesn't matter for a single game. | ||
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On November 29 2016 09:35 Tictock wrote: I kinda feel like you are tryharding yourself there Koshi, trying real hard to find reasons to call Onegu mafia. While I agree with you, that Koshi feels tryharding here on Onegu, I must say this and his general tone still gives me a minor townlean on Koshi for now. Simply because he is tryharding and motivated. And with his history of scumrolling and what I recall from reading Dota2, he was way less motivated there and more stabby. | ||
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Maybe he just improved his posting style though. He promised he would. Then again, he promised that at the beginning of Newbiemafia already ^.^ | ||
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On November 29 2016 09:57 Koshi wrote: NU his newbie game entrance was blatantly obvious mafia. And his townplay is way too invested compared to his mafia play. Will be an easy read if he keeps up playing and keeps activity up. Not worried about reading him. More worried about keeping him in check in case he is town. rofl. In what game was NU mafia? I played Newbie with him, there he was spammy, disturbing and town. And I read the game before from him (sorry, lost name.. too lazy to check), but there he was also town, but also busy with Calix TvT all the game. Can you link me his scumgame? (Do I really want to read his former filters??? REALLY?) | ||
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Instead of linking all those great threads... What is your approach to helping town this game? So far you have: - defended yourself against I dont know what - said Hi to everybody few times Both is nothing bad, but as I feel not much motivation to read all your linked games, and meta changes anyway... Just share the "town meta" you wanna apply this game. | ||
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emps filter is trash, even for D1 standards. Hello here, hello there, spammy link, spammy video, apologizes for not being there before (was walking home), still not being there after his apology, except for another jokepost. And then followed his 2 most "investigative" posts: + Show Spoiler + On November 29 2016 08:57 emperorchampion wrote: Indeed, colour me as interested in those reasons! + Show Spoiler + On November 29 2016 08:57 emperorchampion wrote: wooo koshi going for easy bro points When those are your best posts (and you again have no followup at all) you are probably not doing enough to help town. | ||
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On November 29 2016 10:22 LightningStrike wrote: A. I almost always in the defensive early as town if people start questioning my alignment that is not Onegu. B. As scum I almost always never defend myself this hard unless Damdred was in my team(See Cell for the Damdred portion and my Witch Hunter game) C. Normally I do get a mega push going by Day 2 as town. As scum I don't do mega pushes but more soft pushes. You can see this in my more recent games. How do you get to that mega push? (this is a mix of question to learn for myself and a mix of metaquestion about you ^^) Also no need in telling your scummeta, this is pointless anyway. | ||
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On November 29 2016 10:35 LightningStrike wrote: Alright. Any other thoughts you care to share? I share as it comes to mind ^.^ But I think I covered my initial thoughts about almost everyone who posted. Well I guess I ignored TT and LS, but neither really have enough posts to warrant any analysis. | ||
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After I quickly established myself as wot thrower in newbie mafia, this time I'm trying to keep stuff shorter, just pointing things out with less explanations... Not sure this is better though. Then again not sure who read my stuff last game :D | ||
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On November 29 2016 10:41 LightningStrike wrote: I just push a target non-stop after locking a aim until either I get out of a bad tunnel(See Tortoise) or I had lynched them. Usually the later happens more or less. This does not explain how you come to your target of choice. Sounds more like a dangerous tunneler rolling a dice and telling everyone to trust him ^^ PS: annoying flood control... Guess I push my TL counter a bit for a change. | ||
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But hey, there is enough time left and I want to read more people, including the ones who havent posted yet. So I'm off for now, gn8 | ||
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On November 29 2016 10:56 LightningStrike wrote: Also you could talk to Koshi about me too since Koshi had played a lot of games with me. Considering he called you Town for meta, thats a smart thing to say | ||
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On November 29 2016 15:57 Holyflare wrote: Too diplomatic, doesn't feel accusatory enough. Concerned with self meta, not really concerned with own reads. "Cases" someone (emperor?) but has no real conclusion or care about it. Wishy washy stance (not even a stance, just saying we need calix) on NU, basically not even a real post on NU. You know, if we wouldnt have played together last game... But we did... so wtf are you on? So I really don't feel like explaining you the "too diplomatic" part again. At this point I'm just dropping my thoughts on whoever posted but I'm far off any conclusions. If you want to call it a case on Emp, well, you have a very low standard for those, I guess. But yes, at this point he was the most suspect player to me. Pointed that out (as I did my opinion on pretty much everyone else who posted that far), no reaction at all, went to sleep. Can care about it when there is more to it. Now there are more pots from him, so I can continue this thought... But hey, whoever doesn't vote on first post must be scum because indecisive, yay! -.- And not even sure where you are going on with my stance on NU. But I guess I just explain my thought on NU: right now it is difficult for me to read NU, simply as he doesn't post in his former NU ways. And reading his posts without thinking BUT ITS NU is difficult for me. So I'm willing to give him time for now so I get a feel for his new ways. But hey, I posted about like half the players, you posted about exactly one person (me), calling me out for not having enough decisive reads. Call me amazed. | ||
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On November 29 2016 17:25 Onegu wrote: Yeah here it is. Koshi had a 24 page filter in Dota 2 mafia. He can do this shit as mafia. Giving him a free pass because he is tryharding and motivated wtf do you call a 24 page filter? It isnt a reason to townread koshi. Koshi wants to win even if he rolls mafia 20 games in a row. He doesnt just call it in. That is one thing you can actually count on with koshi, he always wants to win. Uhm, now you actually made me look back at that game and not just recall it from my mind. But no, my opinion stands. Yes, his filter is long. But imho his tryhard part started way later. And Koshi was way more stabby back there on day one. He was poking here and there, drop a comment, blabla. But this game I see a much clearer agenda from him. And this is so far for me at least a good agenda. Just compare pages 1-2 of his filter there to his filter here. Am I fully sold on him? No. But is he the towniest player so far for me? Yes. | ||
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On November 29 2016 18:07 Holyflare wrote: When on earth did I play with you? You pretty much surmise my gripe with your NU post. You don't have a read but yet you're making posts about not having the read. It looks weird to me and seems like you're making reads for the sake of it and it seems little of your reads are based on actual content and more meta. You have the whole day to change my mind  Oups... I mixed you up with Skynx. Not sure if this is offending to you Well... then lets drop that. | ||
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Makes it a real pain to play on the phone, especially when looking back at pages -.- | ||
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Not understanding this post though: On November 29 2016 13:25 emperorchampion wrote: Not ready to come to a conclusion like that atm, esp. since some of your posts have been suspect, and there is some friction there. Just someone to read more on. I mean, I can see why you dont have a conclusion on NU. But why does you having a conclusion on NU hinge on your judgement of the guy who asked you for that conclusion? Those should be independent. But once you are awake, I would love to hear where your reading of LS brought you. LS makes me confused right now. I feel I should have a strong lean on him... But then I always feel like im basically just implying way too much into his posts. | ||
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There are two SL in this game... Can we somehow make some distinction? I guess I call sicklucker SL from now on and shapelog will be shlog | ||
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Guess I write a summary anyway... Maybe this helps me to order my thoughts better. | ||
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On November 29 2016 22:50 Holyflare wrote: Can you give me a quick breakdown of which people fit into which category in that post margarine? Just a simple: Would like to know more: and People solely expanding filter with no content: I'm very intrigued. I was just writing my summary... F5ed here, full page showing up -.- Will still post it, but may have to adjust some stuff. Currently at 9/13. | ||
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1) Rels: 0 posts - nuff said 2) HF: a bunch of oneliners, only 2 content posts are his case on me (btw, he didnt vote me in the vote thread) The other posts are seemingly just there to tell everyone he is there. I do not really see much will to start solving the game. - minor scumlean for that, but I hope he steps up 3) Shlog: He hides some good posts between a ton of spam. I for now feel like booking his cop claim->scum claim as pure spam and ignore it. But I liked his posts on NU and Emp as well as his latest one(#498), the mindset shown there would cause me to give him a townlean for now. If he now cuts out the spam to increase readability... I'm convinced ^.^ 4) TT: Uhm. His filter is short and generic. Then again, the posts were quite early, and he hasnt posted in quite some time. (this is pretty much the difference to HF) I don't think Koshis case on him is particularly strong here for now, so I guess I call him neut for now, and reserve judgement once he starts showing up and answers what is brought against him and contributes own stuff. 5) LS: Said hi, defended himself preemptively, asked everyone for their opinion, has no own opinion. (at least none he shares) When I went to bed I really thought that when I reread him I would get a strong scum lean here. Somehow people vouching for him on meta makes me unsecure. I have a bad feeling about him for the reasons listed, but when I just reread his filter I'm not getting those scum tone vibes... cant specify why, purely emotional. Fuck it, I guess I leave him to people who can judge him better until I have seen more from him to form a more conclusive opinion. 6) DF: Didn't post much, but what I saw I liked. Reminds me of his play in the newbie game (he was town there). So posts good and meta good. I like. I call town. 7) Koshi: I explained this earlier... I think his whole approach and everything is very townish. This hasn't changed since I talked about him for the last time. But somehow I can't follow his latest "reads". There is a lot of ultimative 1 line alignment assignments. "LS lock town, cuz meta" - would like more details here "CM8 town" - because newbs cant be scum in their first game? "Emp town" after he liked one post, criticized the other... Uhm... Can't follow that progression either. I'm still considering Koshi townish, but please... take us with you... let us follow your thoughts. Don't write it on the edge of the page that you found the proof to your conjecture and then just pass out. (Hi @Fermat) 8) CM8: No substantial posts. This also means that there is nothing that screams scum. And I don't lynch newbs D1 unless they give me good reason. So completely neut, but policynotlynch. 9) Mahrgell: No clue, not reading this guys filter. 10) emp: Yeah, gimme more... Didn't like his start, he slightly upgraded with his posts on NU, since then is missing. Same category as TT for me. 11) SL; Posted nothing of value at all, but has spread out his posting. At best some superficial one liners. Same category as HF. So scumlean for now, waiting for more activity to confirm. 12) Onegu: He is officially not even playing, as he is not in the player list. Similar to SL and HF he lacks content, but has been online quite a bit. But additionally I consider him disruptive with his pointless spam. Try to start some conversation early, okay... But even later when there was some minor really convo going up he prefered to post nonsense. Would lynch. You may call it policy lynch, but day1 I prefer to look for who is not playing for town as I doubt the existance of clear scum tells. Onegu wins on that antitown ranking, even ahead of Rels. 13) NU: Uh... the most controversial comes last. He is probably the one i have "most meta with". And this is clouding me here. Because it doesn't fit at all. Then again he was called out after the last games to change it, promised to do so... I just have troubles readjusting here. I understand where people are coming from when they call him out, but at the same time he has been very blunt in the past. I want to see how he responds to the accusations and gather more information about his "new style". Depending on that I can see myself strongly supporting or defending a lynch. | ||
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CM8: yeah, I agree here, his post looked townish from a newb. But can you explain your ToS background a bit more though? Like how much you played that? IRL or online? I'm a bit reluctant on all the "he is a newb" reads, just because of my own last game ^.^ NU: Uhhh.... this is the NU I know. Makes accusations I don't understand, doesn't let go on them and greatly overvalues them. Sorry bro, not seeing what you see there. If I only think about this game, this makes you scum. If I think about meta, this makes you town. Just a town that is difficult to handle. -.- At this point I still don't feel smarter about him. But from my feels he will be deciphered by end of D2... so if he is scum, he should be an easy D2 kill. | ||
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On November 29 2016 23:55 NeverUnlucky wrote: #526 5) and 6) mostly reflect my thoughts on both these players. However, I really don't like this: "Fuck it, I guess I leave [LS] to people who can judge him better until I have seen more from him to form a more conclusive opinion. " It comes back to HF's point re: dedicating a post to someone and not having a clear opinion on them. On that note, you still have no read on me despite liking the points that were made against me and claiming I am the one you have the most meta with. Also, fucking stop calling me "controversial" and whatnot. COntroversial most in the sense that you are among the most suspected players in this game. Deal with it. And about not having a read, I think I explained why. Because I feel that what you write in this game, and what others call you out for makes you look scummish in isolation. If I add back the meta, it makes you look townish. So back to square 0. But I don't see much point in argueing about that. I have nothing to add to the allegations against you and it is up to you if you feel you defended enough against those. If you don't feel like they are worth commenting more, just share more good stuff about other players. Like what are your opinions on HF, SL, emp, TT and LS? | ||
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On November 29 2016 23:58 Holyflare wrote: I feel like you just made a wall of text on every player in the game for no real reason and the majority of your scum leans are simply the unproductive ones. It just seems so out of place. Why the need for the summary? Yes, my scum leans are the unproductive ones. Should I mark it again for you? Day1 I search for those who don't play for town. I'm not as brilliant as you to instantly have a lockscum read on my first post. And why I made it? Simply because I dived all filters, was frustrated about the lack of anything. Would have loved something more concrete. But this game is quite asleep. Besides Koshi I don't see any initiative at all. Everyone else is at best dropping one liners commenting about their feelings. And this is honestly quite frustrating. So if this wot triggers some activity... Hey, I'm totally happy. | ||
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On November 30 2016 00:04 Holyflare wrote: Your opinion on me shouldn't be anything other than null btw. I haven't done much but you should certainly agree that your NU reads are wishy washy useless crap and it is excellent to be called out for that when you yourself didn't even "realise". Thanks for telling me what my opinion on you should be. I don't care. And well... at least I can explain why im so undecided on NU. Where are your contributions? Haven't seen many opinions from you about other players besides myself. | ||
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On November 30 2016 00:24 Holyflare wrote: I don't play at work, you're lucky I'm even posting anything right now and even this is tough. My "only content" so far is great and was posted on the train. It's quite easy to see I have a thought process and am following it up whenever my scum read posts (you). Totally happy you are posting anything. I feel really honored. Also if you say your content is great and your thought process is easy to see, I have no choice but to accept that as the ultimate truth. I simply don't have time to read anything other than the latest posts till I get home. Basically, I think your stances are poor. They are based on meta and/or some form of insubstantial tidbit. "This guy feels different," "Koshi is town for this but here's something I need answers for even though you're not scummy looking at all". Okay, not asking townreads again. No wait... Seriously, what stuff are you on? Yes I think his general attitude is ultra town. No I don't understand those reads from him. But Senpai HF teaches me I'm not allowed to ask him :[ Your mindset just doesn't align with how I'd be thinking if I was thinking what you're thinking. You're questioning your town reads and aren't really concerned about your scum reads. Your only questions are really to your highest town read and have done not much to get any more information from your scum leans. You want content but you rehash the game in a giant wall and expect people to do something. You want activity, you make activity by asking questions and pushing things. Not by idly commenting in a summary. U think, what I think what u think, or how was it? Sorry lost me on that bit. But I actually agree with the rest there on that my play could be better. I guess this can be improved in future (or at least tried ^.^) | ||
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Will try to stop it, sorry. | ||
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On November 30 2016 00:49 Koshi wrote: 4. Onegu 8. Checkm8 11. sicklucker 12. Ticktock I am left with these names. CM8 was a townream, TT was a scumread, no? I can't follow you again. Guess I better get used it. | ||
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On November 29 2016 23:04 Onegu wrote: I may be padding my filter just so people can be like holy shit onegu has a 5+ page day 1 filter that means he is scum, so I can reinforce my you cant meta read me. But I do think I got some content in there also. Maybe not... Well, as I failed while searching for said content... Would you highlight it for me? Or just summarize it, as you must have thoughts that go beyond affection for various players. Still mostly interested in HF, SL, emp, TT and LS. You should also have enough experience with those to judge their D1 habits. Oh, and add NU to that list. | ||
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now that NU answered those allegations somehow and showed some more interaction... How are your feelings about him now? Does this satisfy you or did it reinforce your issues with him? Would you be willing to case him? | ||
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Anyway, regardig the part about me.. Last game I would have asked my all knowing coach This game I guess I have to go with HFs gentle advice instead of just observing further as I originally planned. But I don't mind anyone helping on creating some movement, if someone shares those concerns  | ||
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On November 30 2016 01:25 NeverUnlucky wrote: I recognize myself in him, and he's funny. I also think that his "Where is everyone?" and "SL was here then left..." posts were town. However, I don't think he's the most town itt anymore because he has yet to make a serious post which worries me. I can see where Koshi is coming from with the Dandel comparison. Off for a while Hm... I can't agree with your pro town arguments. Like you usually at least have substance. Not necessarily substance I agree with but you have something. If you were scum, and knowing your own meta, wouldn't you just fill up the thread as you usually do but drop the substance? Because this is exactly what I feel is happening with Onegu here. Being funny is not a towntell to me, sorry. (At best it makes him worth to keep around and kill him last. ^^) And not sure how those 2 quoted posts are townish, but well, early game vibes are rather subjective I guess so whatever. | ||
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On November 30 2016 01:31 LightningStrike wrote: It hard to explain but it a gut feeling on tone between EC and NU it doesn't feel town on town for some reason when they talked to each other. Uhm?? I can't follow that argument. How it the tone of a townie in TvT different from his tone in TvM? If you can't decide who is the M in this matchup, I'm not seeing how you come to the conclusion that this should be TvM. Or are you saying it is TvM or MvM? | ||
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I'm leading. By a lot. Easy win! Gimme cake! | ||
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On November 30 2016 01:42 LightningStrike wrote: Tone of TvT feels more natural while TvM feels unnatural ie like something feels forced by one side. EC vs NU seems like TvM on tone. I will look into more later when I get on a computer because quoting posts is a pain in the assignment on mobile. hm? Yeah, would like you to detail this later. I'm not really sure what you are after here. PS: is there a way to circumvent flood control, except changing subsite? | ||
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On November 30 2016 01:47 LightningStrike wrote: This post and the one after in EC's filter and the response from NU tone wise makes it seem there is a mafia between them. Like something doesn't feel natural in their conversation. Hm, okay. I don't see it. I see both trying to conjure something out of thin air here, but not sure this is a scum trait at this time. But to each their own feelings. But since NU has posted more since then... How does this translate into your reading of him? | ||
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Just noticed your vote is still on Onegu. But this was some jokevote iirc. Seeing you asking a lot of questions (which I like), but if deadline was close now, who would you vote? You called Koshi@TT not a bad case, so would you support that? Also saw some mistrust towards CM8 from you. Or would it be someone else? | ||
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On the HF case: HF is on my large "Didn't do shit for town" pile. I don't think it can be argued against him, that he went after me, and I already acknowledged that his point about me actually putting out questions to my townreads instead of my scumreads was pretty valid back then. So while I don't agree on his tone on a personal level, his ingame intentions I can respect there. But what drags him down in my mind is his lack of ANY other content. Okay, yesterdy he then brought the reasoning that hes at work, and thus ca only focus on me. But that was quite some time ago. Since then all we got are wonderful one liners like "don't lynch" "can't be assed" "maybe I try". I know people sometimes townread or scumread based on lack of defense, but thats pretty WIFOM to me. Really, the missing part is not the defense here, but the content on anyone but me. And as we are on the "Didn't do shit for town" pile, I may just add SL: Uhm... Was he notified the game already started? Is he playing? All he does is random one liners, I can see no thought put in besides "never played with those guys, must be scum". If I compare him to HF, SL is a tad more scummy than HF. Not sure why, but SLs activity feels more faked. Like every post from him feels like he is playing the "I dont care about the game and I want you all to know it" card. Continueing on that pile, lets have CM8 Yeah, I didn't see anything good from him either. But on this pile he is probably the one least deserving a day1 lynch as I'm willing to give him time to contribute. Also here on the pile, although trying to move onto better lands, is TT I didn't like his return, again explaining why he really didn't play the game. His posts afterwards were again not contributing much in adding his own opinion. I really liked his list post though, it seemed genuine. Maybe because I love list posts? No but seriously, I could understand how he came to those conclusions... This does not really clear him completely for me, but there are better targets, thats for sure. | ||
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On November 30 2016 17:46 Koshi wrote: Don't do a listpost again. Just try to find something interesting. Or talk about something that you think is possible and new information. Maybe a post that comes more likely from town than mafia? Or the other way around even! Fuck, should F5 thread before posting... But yes, in the end I will have everything sorted into scum->town. I feel it is just difficult to explain my ordering without doing lists before | ||
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Rels, shlog, LS, DF. In no peticular order. With all those I feel like they are on the right track. When they ask a question I can somehow see why a townie would like to ask that question what the potential answers could bring to the game. I ca understannd where their judgement comes from. | ||
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Emp: I agree with TT on him. I simply can't understand his thought progress. He went from NU scum->NU town->NU scum in a way I simply can't follow. #577 he suddenly called NU town... Only 10 posts later he again doubted NU. To me it always felt like he was testing the waters how others feel about NU, and as soon as others were questioning NU, he struck again. The point is not that I can not see the validity of his arguments against NU, but the progress puzzles me and rings bells. Also his defense when he was mildly pressured consisted mostly out of looking for shittier players than himself. One thing has to be said though: I'm certain of one thing: NU vs emp is NOT MvM. I can't see any scum do this fishing for followers approach in MvM. So imho if one flips red, this clears the other one in my mind. Brings me to NU: He tries his best to make me (and seemingly everyone else) not understand him. Now this imho fits what I had in mind from him... so if we ignore this... I'm still missing something from him. The old NU loved to lock onto something, chase it. This NU completely lacks this. He is all over the place. He lacks targeted offense. I don't agree with Koshi on NU being the typical "type everything that comes into your mind" player. To me he was more like the "I have a thought and now I make everything fit my view" player. But even from that, this does not fit to what he is showing here. Basically the only excuse I have in my mind is that he wanted to have a new meta, after being called out for the unpleasentness of his previous one, and that I should give him time to to establish that. Conclusion: Somehow they are both my topscum, but I'm 95% sure not both are scum. And I'm not sure how to proceed. So honest question: Actually, under the assumption that there MUST be a townie between those 2, is it still correct to just lynch one? like IRL i would actually let both survive, as there must be 2 scum among the remaining players and chase for those. And then reevaluate this duel later. But IRL the numbers are very different from forum mafia with way less mislynches allowed. | ||
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Guess he gets his own post. | ||
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Uhm, originally I wanted to post a large post on how Koshi dropped from my town reads and why at this point im back at completely neut on him. But I think this does not really concern the day, so maybe we should focus on the lynches for the remaining hours. I would still like to discuss this during the night though... | ||
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Both have this unpleasant kind of "I clearly can't be scum, and this is proven" posts. Has this ever worked? Well... looking at Koshis recent scum wins (and late survival in D2), I guess it did. | ||
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If you have 2 players, both highly suspicious, but certainly not both can be scum at the same time. Lynch one or not? As I said, in IRL mafia with 3 scum alive, I wouldn't lynch either but wait and see. How about online with the more town favored numbers? | ||
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On November 30 2016 18:49 Koshi wrote: Well. Everybody makes posts that they can't be scum. Basically the point of the game. Uhm, okay. I disagree. And I sincerely try my best not to ever do it. And ignore any posts doing that. I think it is completely pointless to explain why one can't be scum. Basically scum can make up anything and this is 100% WIFOM then. I certainly prefer to explain why the own play makes sense as town though. And let others pass judgement if this makes sense as town. | ||
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On November 30 2016 18:53 Holyflare wrote: Who cares if a towny dies, you get a lot of information out of it. It's pretty irrelevant who dies day 1. Potentially even bad if mafia die imo. Makes the game complacent and stale. Well, IRL "lynching for information" is usually highly frowned But okay, I guess I trust Koshi and you on this one... And at least you seem uninvested in this. Which brings me to: What is actually your opinion on the NU vs emp story? You are attacking Koshi now (not sure you are still on me), which makes me feel you don't think as bad about NU. Meanwhile I decide who to vote between the two... | ||
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@HF and how about emp? You feel like he is natural? --- At this point, between Emp ad HF, after reading their filters again, I feel like the posts and the meta speak against NU, but my mind somehow feels he may not be guilty, while on Emp it is the other way around. His posts are less bad than my mind makes them want to be but I just don't feel good about him. Let's go with "facts" here ##vote NeverUnlucky | ||
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Would love to know where everyone stands. Tictock: --> emp : You had a full scumread on emp, half scum on NU. You think they both can be scum? Will you stay on Emp? Onegu: -->Koshi: I actually liked your last post, and as mentioned I have serious doubts about Koshi at this point. But I don't think he is a realistic D1 target so I would love to discuss him at night. If nobody joins your Koshi lead, will you come back to voting for "lesser evils" (or lesser goods, if we talk scumwise) or will you stay principled on Koshi, effectively abstaining from the vote? Rels: --> HF: Quite a while since you posted. Still convinced on HF? He posted quite some stuff since then. If this train dies down (seems like it) what is your updated opinion on NU vs Emp. DF: --> HF: You mentioned you consider HF,SL or Emp as viable lynches. HF and SL posted. So you are now on Emp if it would come down to Emp vs NU? HF: -->none: You went after me, had trust issues with Koshi, don't care about NU being lynched, are more than fine lynching Onegu... Well.. still no vote. If you could dayshoot someone now, it would be Onegu? If not, who else? CM8: -->none: Can you stop playing clueless noob? Like I don't care if you are clueless or not. But you must have an opinion. Your strongest wording so far was some mistrust on NU (why? because others made good arguments on him?) and some weak stuff on Onegu. We are lynching someone soon. Can you become more concrete and post with a bit more confidence? If you were a dayvig, who would you shoot now? | ||
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Cool. I already mentioned, that I see no point in filling the thread during the last half of the day with this discussion. Also I have you on Null, not on scum. I don't think a lynch on you is gonna happen, and I'm not sure I would even want that, and I'm pretty sure you know about the first part too. So cluttering the thread with it now is certainly not leading in a direction that is helping town. Which makes your interest in it only reinforcing my doubts. And honestly... I don't see any point in disucssing it with you anyway. So far all your answers have been "IM LOCK TOWN; YOU RETARD" and you obviously think this is how the convo is supposed to go. Nothing to argue then. I prefer to talk to others in this case. | ||
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can you post it again with proper tags? | ||
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On November 30 2016 22:15 Koshi wrote: Skyrocketing up my scumlist. I am null? I have the most content of all. Please. Explain. Why. I. Am. Scum. Or. Null. No. And explained my reasons enough, Learn to fucking read. Throw your vote at me, call me topscum, blegh. I really dont give a shit. | ||
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Just reread it. I see where you are coming from. I dismissed it earlier, as a hiccup as he was posting as he read it, but you are right, this Skynx!=HF should only concern his doubts about my expectations about you, not about my changed playstyle. But the rest of his filter simply looks so townish. Is Rels the kind of player to make such a "hm... I think this is something"->"hmmm is it?" -> "nah, this sounds totally stupid" progression as scum? It simply felt genuine. Also about my eraly meta, I guess I discarded it also, because I fully acknowledge that I somehow changed... The last game albeit somehow successful was not fully enjoyable a lot of due to how I approached the game. My mental approach is still the same, but I really tried to change my posting habits to make the game more fun and sustainable for myself. So if he at this point felt my meta was off... He was right. | ||
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On November 30 2016 22:28 Holyflare wrote: I would like to hear koshi reasons. I made a big wall on koshi so how is it not relevant if you think he's null? Leave no stone unturned. Meh... okay... gimme an hour. | ||
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Pretty sure he can fake those targeted posts, but well, he didn't in the past games early stage. Not sure he could fake the motivation though. At this point I was very sure he could not. With my more recent concerns I could only explain this by him having some kind of trophy-hunting mindset, where he wants to show everything. Honestly something I would trust him to do form all I read from him, but still this initial feeling is holding me back the most on Koshi. Something though, that annoyed me early already, was his utter refusal to talk about anything but his own shit. Anyone doubting him was wasting time or him simply refusing to give any reasons for his reads, because we don't need to know. (Sorry cant find the post right now... several ppl quoted it too) LS was locktown because trust me boys, CM8 flipped between all alignments while not even posting. I simply never consider it a waste of time to have people talk about my own alignment, as it at least tells me somethig about them, where I have half the information. He can't tell me he has some super secret knowledge he doesn't want to share early day1. Sure, if a blue does that D3, or someone found the ultimate spew and wants to expand the case before revealing it.. go ahead. Early D1? Na. This story then continues. Koshi cant be scum. At the same time his reads are getting less and less impressive. Goes after HF, and calls him out for being offensive towards me. I would usually town read ppl for that. But Koshi? As full of himself as he is? Given his own post style? This looks more like taking cheap jabs, while scoring town points at the same time. And of course, no conversation with Koshi not telling the world that he cant be scum and it is completely impossible for him to play like this as scum. Regarding NU: NU scum, ah no, NU town, ah no, NU lockscum with basically no new information again. (but now emp also chimed in... makes me rethink my judgement about emp... not sure who was looking for assistance here) I actually liked his latest judgement about NU Just cant follow any thought progression here. This all was available before. At this point this feels more like he had a large number of arguments prepped on NU and whipped them out when the stars were good. This all still led me to him being neut though. His post on NU was good, just the progression and timing was shit. His start could be explained in weird ways to be scummish, but simple solutions are often easier and correct. But him calling out people for tone and friendliness, while being a dick all around, the complete refusal to accept any doubt on himself... Given his past games, this was basically how he played as scum there. Postulating he cant be scum (because double lynch in D2) and then trying to lead town. I have not read any townkoshi games. So it is entirely possible he plays the same as town. Just his wild claims, that this must be his town play is utterly bullshit. What basically is tipping me at this point though is his sudden obsession with my doubts on him. I think I was in his townlist for most of the game, and now, with the day entering his final stage, he is suddenly obsessed with me doubting him? Did my doubt of his glorious personality suddenly make me topscum? Was he suddenly looking for a case on someone he called town all day? I already said I would be willing to discuss it at night so I really cant dodge that conversation. But do we really need it now? There is nothing more urgent few hours before deadline that discussing doubts on players who are not getting lynched anyway? I would very much prefer to keep the discussion on likely lynch targets while tracking the other players state of mind. But instead he suddenly wants this to turn into Koshi vs me. But I guess my doubt on him indeed made me scum now. Shit happens. TLDR: - townish opening, I liked his initiative and focus - saying "I'm lock town, can't be scum" is utterly bullshit, when he played the same way the last couple of games. - actively refusing to answer questions on how his reads come together is at least not helping town - calling for others to play nice, lecture them about how to create a helpful town atmosphere while trying the "I'm king, follow me, don't question me" approach to the game is ... again bullshit. - his case on NU was good, the thought progression and timing though was shit and feels unnatural. - insisting on this Mahrgell vs Koshi is disruptive and again shit timing... and the tone is certainly not what he just demanded from HF towards me. - I honestly have no clue where his vote on me is coming from except "MWAHAHA; YOU DONT CALL ME TOWN" | ||
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On November 30 2016 23:19 Koshi wrote: True. I did change my read on Rels a bit after reading that Onegu post. Or at least it sparked my interest in Rels. Ok top 4 atm NU Mahrgell Rels TT Cool, from Top3 town to Top2 scum because I doubted you. :D | ||
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And I'm very thankful for your generous "you might be town". This really means a lot to me. Now I can sleep without nightmares again. | ||
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On November 30 2016 22:32 Shapelog wrote: Also Onegu stole the way I catch up. Thief! How are you doing on catching up? I would like some fresh opinions here. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Onegu: -->Koshi: I actually liked your last post, and as mentioned I have serious doubts about Koshi at this point. But I don't think he is a realistic D1 target so I would love to discuss him at night. If nobody joins your Koshi lead, will you come back to voting for "lesser evils" (or lesser goods, if we talk scumwise) or will you stay principled on Koshi, effectively abstaining from the vote? | ||
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okay, tbh I'm not much interested in any defense from you. Would you mind instead sharing your own thoughts on other players? Who are your top scum reads now? How do you judge the way how the train on you formed? | ||
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On December 01 2016 01:01 emperorchampion wrote: ughghg I just don't know about you man. Your case on sl leaves me unconvinced because you are basically suspecting him for troll posts. I think maybe TT is the top lynch. Thinking about it after his sleep, his big post has sooo many inconsistencies. Can you point those out? | ||
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On December 01 2016 01:07 NeverUnlucky wrote: I feel like emp and mahr's reads on me are way too flippy floppy and weak and they surprisingly coincide with Koshi's read on me. mahr could very much be scum. Page 43, will be back in 1:30 So your scumlist now is SL, emp and me? (taking your post above into account too) Uh. Okay. | ||
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Interesting read. I guess I will look into it myself again. You say TT is your toplynch, but NU is still scummy for you? Given where the votes are now, do you want to "rescue" NU by directing the lynch at TT? Or keep it going and keep TT as your toplynch for tomorrow? | ||
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First of all: can someone link me a scum game from him? Regarding your doubts on him 1) Two of the top town reads are Rels and Koshi, both are at the time voting for HF. He has a town read on HF. I don't see any justification for this stance. Actually, I hadn't noticed this. (Or well... I honestly just lazily filter skimmed him before so I went over those details) Imho this is a very valid point. Like he does even mention their current vote/case when judging them. Though what I note is, that he has a lot of those "lazy townreads". This is making me question whether he is really a lazy mafia and makes more likely to think he is a lazy townie. Like I can see scum making 2 lazy town reads. But his townreads/leads on myself, LS, CM8 are also almost without any public doubt. On those he keeps the option to revert later, but imho scum would still try to throw more shade than he does. If someone tells me this is in his scumrange, I may rethink it, but I only know one town game from him (where he was more invested) but cant really judge his scumgame from that. And for generic scum it simply doesn't fit. 2) The read of HF it self, partially green but null/conflicted. I'm not really sure what to make of that. I get the sense that the conflict between having HF as town and Mahrgell as town is noted, but dealt with so lazily. Your 2) just reinforces that. Lazy. Combined with what I wrote above, that doesn't necessarily make him scum. 3) Stating MvM between NU and I essentially means that TT thinks that 2 mafia have been found day 1. I find this to be a very odd conclusion. Uhm... Not sure what you mean here. I already questioned this MvM idea. I simply don't see both of you being scum. But uhm... your line of thinking I can't follow. Yes, it is unlikely to find 2 scum day one. But this doesn't mean that it is impossible to feel like some fight is staged and MvM. Yes, often this idea ends up being bad, but thats the case with most D1 reads. And I recall myself feeling that there are staged fights IRL on D1, even when there were only scum total. 4) The case on my self is truly baffling. Either TT is lying when he says that "I didn't find anything townie" or has not been reading closely at all. Let me outline: + Show Spoiler + a) Two of his top towns, Rels and Koshi, are voting for HF. Koshi had 0 interest in voting HF prior to my posts #589 and #609. b) I am (to my knowledge at the time) not under consideration by: Rels, Koshi, LS, HF (?). All towns for TT. c) I am currently voting for one of his towns (LS) current target. d) The reasoning that I had for being suspicious of HF (#609) is the exact same as the reason that he is null/conflicted on HF Uh, I actually like your analysis of his other reads here. But this makes me more to question his other reads than his read on you tbh. I just recall that at this time I had a very similar feeling about you. Like I read the game from time to time during the night, and just from feeling I had a very bad feeling about you. Went to sleep and thought "tomorrow you case emp". Later I reread you and somehow this feeling had not really cemented form posts. But if I put myself in position of LazyTT, I can see where he was coming from. | ||
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NU did nothing really that convinced me to change my mind. At the same time, emp dramatically upgraded here. What I really liked about his post on TT was that he actually analyzed it in the context of the surroundings. Like who else was voting whom, how does this make sense. And at what time during the game was the post made. Most players don't even do that as town. They just filter dive and try to find stuff. Especially with posts farther back stuff like emp brought up gets easily missed. But doing that as scum? Way too much effort. There are easier ways to conjure shit from peoples filters. | ||
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Though I feel we are somehow missing a chance here. Like this easy train to lynch NU is robbing us of a lot of valuable action. When people suddenly start shifting with the Lynch coming closer, a lot of information is to be gained... | ||
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- your post on him still makes me like you more, cuz you also considered the surroundings well and this is more effort than I expect from scum (and even more effort than many townies put in) - feel good about NU lynch at this point, even though I feel this calm finish of the day is wasting chances. | ||
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@Tictock: (voting emp) : You had a full scumread on emp, half scum on NU. You think they both can be scum? Will you stay on Emp? @Rels: (voting HF): Quite a while since you posted. Still convinced on HF? He posted quite some stuff since then. If this train dies down (seems like it) what is your updated opinion on NU vs Emp. @DF: (voting HF): You mentioned you consider HF,SL or Emp as viable lynches. HF and SL posted. So you are now on Emp if it would come down to Emp vs NU? @CM8: (not voting): Can you stop playing clueless noob? Like I don't care if you are clueless or not. But you must have an opinion. Your strongest wording so far was some mistrust on NU (why? because others made good arguments on him?) and some weak stuff on Onegu. We are lynching someone soon. Can you become more concrete and post with a bit more confidence? If you were a dayvig, who would you shoot now? | ||
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On December 01 2016 03:11 darthfoley wrote: wtf who says this as town???? especially you of all people. last game if someone hinted that you might be mafia, you flipped shit. I understand you might not be motivated to play or something but that does not "normalize" this response from a player like you. like mahrgell or checkm8 would do this type of post but i can't see a world in which you just lie down and take it like this Should I feel bad now? | ||
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I stand with NU. Really, nothing has changed my mind on him. At this point the voices in my head telling me to give him a chance have simply got more and more silent. Also I have nobody standing out more than him. Yes, there are a number of candidates who I have doubts about, but when I think about "who deserves another chance" I take them over NU. Even the inactive ones. NU has been here and posted thus had his chance to convince me. But instead of really starting to drop reads he went full defense. His posts are weak, but lack "rage". When a townie is gonna die I usually expect one of either. Go full tilt about everyone else being a retard. Or remember that it does not matter if you get lynched D1, you can still win. So try your best to create an active EoD, so your teammates, although assholes who lynched you, have something to learn from. But he is just rolling over -.- | ||
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If it was nobody posting, but everyone parking his vote, I would usually be inclined to feel like it is scum who are just happy about a coming ml and let the game die out. This game is different. It is actually people not voting. Idk if they are simply not online and really set an alarm for minutes before deadline... Or if they are lurking and waiting. Chances are theres some lurkers amongst those. And this feels more like scum waiting if any non-NU train is realizing, then quickly jumping in, voting it, saving a mate, and later play the "I was not able to to fully read everything and had to gut feel vote, sorry, went wrong" | ||
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On December 01 2016 05:48 Rels wrote: Yeah I was suspecting him while catching up, then I read some good posts of him and when I was done catching up I didn't think he was scum anymore. On December 01 2016 05:48 Rels wrote: And it actually points at me being town more than scum. As scum I don't change my reads for no reason and I push weaker players WTF I just wanted to sit back and watch chess and preventing a mafia burnout. but what is that? Why on earth this urge to point out his own previous clearly makes him town. o.O Gosh, this feels almost too bad to be a scumslip for me. But seriously. WTF? | ||
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5 minutes ago I was sure I would not change my vote. This is gone. There may be nothing. But at least I'm open for more opinions on Rels and can see myself voting for him if I find more stuff... | ||
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You thought about what? I can't follow. You made your post about me, and then thought about it, and suddenly had this feeling "uhhhh... my thoughts are clearly towny, I should tell the world so they see this too" | ||
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Summary is basically: - His drop of suspicion on me felt weird. - his weird progression of "this is good" -"is it?" - "no it isnt" is very townish Uhm... yeah. I don't know, I suddenly feel like I would need more time to properly analyze his "cases" and points though. From memory I always felt like they were entirely in the realm of a townish thinking but many people have casted doubt on him. What is everyone elses thought on Rels? | ||
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On December 01 2016 06:02 Rels wrote: HF said that me changing my mind about you was scummy I explained what happened in my head Then I pointed out I don't do that as scum Okay... And I thought Koshis permanent "I can't be scum" was bad... Also this is so far from the last game we played together... Koshi does this every game from what I see, but I really don't recall this bullshit from you... It is 1 hour before lynch, you are not getting a single vote and suddenly you have to point out your obvious townieness and start going full defense against everyone? ##unvote NeverUnlucky ##vote Rels | ||
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I really hate Rels here. Gimme dayvig and I shoot him on sight. But I somehow feel Rels is a gamble. And nothing has changed about NU. | ||
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##vote NeverUnlucky | ||
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On December 01 2016 06:30 Koshi wrote: What Rels is doing makes no sense in mafia POV. Either NU is mafia and he gets himself lynched. Either NU is town and he gets himself lynched. Like it's not like he tries to divert to lynch onto somebody else in a sneaky way or something. Or put shit on somebody based on preflip association with NU. This is the point I'm at. My problem is, that his posts also don't make any sense from town pov. Like it feels completely random. | ||
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On December 01 2016 06:33 Rels wrote: /ignore HF Well... I can understand you not wanting to argue with HF... I had my own experiences with that. -.- At the same time I would still like how your read progression on me went from http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26205962 onwards. - You called me out for wrong meta. - called me out again, and added the point about my expectations on HF - noticed that my expectations on HF were of a wrong premise, so dropped that - summarized that I was null (at least I did not show up as town or scumlean there) Why you dropped the point about my meta being wrong? | ||
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On December 01 2016 06:35 Koshi wrote: Hmm. I am not currently with my head 100% in the game but is he not just catching up? He said something, people got offended, and that's it? Was he pushing an agenda? I don't think so. Uhm, no I don't think he was pushing an agenda. Then again, I'm not feeling agendas with anyone yet. Like my udgement on NU is also based on his lack of town play. And I simply can't stand those "Look, I can't be scum" posts. And this one was completely uncalled for. Like I can never, and I really mean NEVER envision myself posting some read... And then firing another post behind telling everyone how this last post just btw obv makes me town. What makes me so confused though is, that as scum I would probably do posts, and afterwards think about that post made me look... But even as scum I wouldn't post it. Like... no. | ||
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On December 01 2016 06:41 Holyflare wrote: It makes sense for you because you were pushing mafia agenda and already disliked the tone of my early posts. It doesn't make sense for a guy that is watching me push someone that should be his scum read. woah? So you are calling Koshi+Rels as scum team, and also accept the NU kill? Game solved? | ||
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Add TT "I dont have any time at all, lets jump on the maintrain, im out" Anyway... I will really calm down for now. I need some rest from this game. I will continue reading though and then make up my mind on whatever the flip brings... Will probably post after chess is done. | ||
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From reading it seems there is nothing ultra urgent... So I guess I just start diving, putting stuff in place and make list posts ^.^ I have some feelings right now, but I have to check if they are more than just feelings. | ||
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Rels: With some distance I feel my rage at him was probably not reasonable in that dimension... Even though this post that started it still disturbs me highly. Similarly I can accept his reasoning for his mind change on me earlier. I can see this to be a townish progression. Then again for both incidents the scum interpretation is also copletely on the table for me, so let's call this null and not relevant. But even if I try to blend that out, I can't really give much positive to Rels at this point. Let's simply go through his interaction with NU + Show Spoiler + On November 30 2016 07:17 Rels wrote: OK I'm caught up. I think LS Koshi and DF are town. I think I wanna lynch one of HF TT Onegu and SL. Rest are null. His first summary. NU is seemingly null. + Show Spoiler + On November 30 2016 07:42 Rels wrote: No apart from his big post which was townie. Less than half an hour later, this is his first post really mentioning NU. So he didn't like NU (except for one post) but didnt feel like digging into it? Why? This would be easier for me to understand, if he was entirely focussed on his scumlist from the previously quoted post. But between those while, he also investigated HF and SL, ha also went after TT and DF, pointing out their possible scum tells. Why did he point out what disturbs him about those 2 neut reads, but you have to explicitly ask him after NU who is seemingly in the same pile? Okay, with him not talking about NU, let's look what happened instead: He starts a train on HF. Now when I read this from his filter, this confused me a bit as I had to look for reasons on why he want after HF here. Besides his previously mentioned list post, he pointed out two things: + Show Spoiler + On November 30 2016 06:53 Rels wrote: This is such a bad post. First, his read was "minor scumlean for that, but I hope he steps up". Second, he obviously won't think his NU read is scummy if he's town SINCE HE S TOWN. Third, you've played enough to know that it's normal to tend to scumread people that scumread you. On November 30 2016 07:20 Rels wrote: HF I hated that one post I quoted earlier. Rest of filter is meaningless. Actually this post is him further going deep down to a pointless argument, which doesn't show the "HF gamesense" Koshi was tlaking about at some point. I'm not sure about the first one. I, for completely unbiased reasons, can understand what he is trying to say here and think it is true. But imho the only conclusion from that should be that HFs points are moot and he should calm down. Not sure how this really points to him being scum. So this leaves us with the second one. Lack of HF-gamesense. Mhhh. This doesn't feel much stronger than his stuff against TT, who was not even on his scumlist. This sudden push feels a bit random. But hey, pushing randomly D1 is a valid strat! And pushing HF out of his tunnel, ignoring 11 out of 13 players... Not necessarily bad. But slowly I feel like I have to bend myself even more and more to make his actions align with town, while I can rather easily see those from scum. But let's continue. He continues talking about DF and TT. + Show Spoiler + A post about NU! Cool. He really doesn't like NU. Doesn't cause any action though. He stays on his HF stuff. + Show Spoiler + On November 30 2016 08:13 Rels wrote: It's weird that you checked out the votes before catching up ? ANd this doesn't convince me. 1) slight scumlean but hope for the better isn't very different from null. 2) then replace "scummy" by "suspicous" or whatever you meant. 3) I'm not arguing that, I'm saying I don't like you stating two times that marhgell should understand your argument against him and not scumlean you, when it's the normal reaction to have. Like again, I understand every post he makes here. But is that justifying a vote on HF? Especially given his arguments against TT and NU? And if he is really going after HF, this is damn half assed. But hey, there are others pushing that train now!, why get your hands dirty. Next he disappears until deadline. Comes back, makes the post I hated earlier. Then feels the need to point out how he doesn't like TT (again, this is entirely valid, but it feels so out of place with his actions). Gets into a fight with HF and me (okay, he isn't to blame for that one ^^) States that he has to decide between HF and NU, as both are scummy, finally agrees on NU. Agreeing on NU did nothing, NU was dead anyway. Why not go after HF? He didn't drop his suspicion on HF, he ust concluded that both are scummy. Create movement, force at least something out of HF. Force people to position themselves. If you feel the choice is between 2 scum, anything that comes from it can only help town. TLDR - his arguments mostly made sense when isolated and I can agree on many - When analyzing the progression, targeting, vote actions etc, things become odd --- To view everything from a Town!Rels point of view and make sense of it, I feel like I have to make so many assumptions to somehow get everything in. Unfocused, unmotivated and several mind twists etc. Those assumptions also don't fit my impression from him from our last game. --- If I view everything from a Scum!Rels point of view, I do not really have to do that. Stuff is straight forward. - his complete ignorance towards NU, even though he pointed out his dislike whenever he did mention him, is staggering - his EoD actions are at best wasted chances for town, if what he posted were his thoughts. Well... or we take the easier interpretation. - oh, I still hate his one post, you know which one ^.^ --- Conclusion: Right now, I really scumlean Rels quite hard. I feel like I could WIFOM myself out by always saying "but scumrels would pay more attention, yadayada". The problem I really have is to make him town I have to do that A LOT. way too much. To make him scum... this play is perfectly in line. | ||
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To quickly go over the 3 players who started the NU lynch. Emp: I said earlier, I 100% can't see him vs NU be MvM. I quickly glanced at that interaction again, but yeah... He is probably the lockiest locktown in this game for me right now. Koshi: townlean - Why only lean? I said earlier, it felt to me like he was fishing for assistance against NU, now this is a strong town tell. Still, this does not invalidate my general concerns about him.It just puts more protown arguments on the pile. Like if this high effort bus play is in someones scum range, it is probably Koshi. Maybe I just have trust issues... ^.^ If I'm at lylo with Koshi, I would probably vote him. But until then I accept him as town. SL: The antithesis to Koshi. He did nothing all day, declared a bunch of people being scum, voted NU, went offline again for the rest of the day, then victory paraded on NUs grave for his own brilliant "read". Erm... yeah. If he is scum, this is really the lowest effort bus ever. Like I have really troubles on giving him any town cred for it. He didn't do anything here. But when I look at it from a scum perspective, it puzzles me even more. I would really like to know from ppl who played with him before, if this kind of shit bus is in his scumrange or not. Personally I honestly tend towards him being a terrible/utterly lazy townie who played blind roulette and won and now celebrates. I know that SL has experience, but the alternative to this interpretation is an even more terrible scum, who decided to bus his team mate, completely forgot that when bus you usually don't want your mate dead or at least get town cred for it, but managed to kill his mate and not get anything from it. TLDR: Emp: TOWNIEST TOWN EVER Koshi: the stuff on NU was either very good town play, or a deliberate attempt at the play of the year as scum, which i eel he would be able to, but the easier solution is to attempt it was good town play for now SL: his stuff on NU was either bad(but lucky) town play or completely awful scum play. Both interpretations are way below what I expected from a player from his experience, but I tend to the first interpretation. | ||
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I will try to dive through the remaining 7 too... But those are players I have currently no feeling, so this needs more elaborated dives... | ||
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MOAR FILTERS! | ||
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- overall he looked completely overwhelmed by being scum ^^ - makes me more inclined to think LS is town, if he was scum and they decided the day by battling, okay, but this does not align with NUs later post shyness. - points out a contradiction with CM8, but way less followup than with LS. This post almost seems more directed at LS (as the contradiction is about the stance of CM8 towards LS) Not sure here. At one hand it feels like a cheap shot at a newbie town, on the other hand I would expect a shellshocked NU to probably use this chance to push a newbie more. Maybe I get a clearer opinion once I read CM8s filter again. (that should be quick...) - interacts with Koshi shortly over CM8. The easy explanation is Koshi is town, the difficult one is Koshi is a scum mastermind, tried to give NU a chance to look good, was not pleased, decided to do the super play. Let's stick with the easy one ^.^ - interacts with me: CLEARLY MAKES ME TOWN!!! okay... not doing that. I leave the analysis of myself to others - his opinion on Onegu is inconclusive imho... not reading anything int that. He was forced to say something about Onegu, he did say something. - he joins up with HF on me. Not sure what to make of this. - there are 2 players he sidejabs from time to time: TT&SL For both he seems to paint them bad without any real reasoning. Just like random "I don't like this guy for whatever" I'm really not sure how to judge this. Common mafia knowledge tells us, that scum should keep one scumbuddy among their townleans, one among their scumleans. Is he using common mafia knowledge here? Then either TT or SL would be scum. Is it really that easy? Like I somehow believe in a minimum standard of play on this site and right now I try to imagine scum QT in the SL scum case: NU: Hey guys, I really have no clue what to post. Oh yeah, I did some list posts, mentioned you as scumlean SL, nothing personal. SL: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media1.giphy.com/media/fjp4q4E3o443S/200.gif) Well... and TT went completely missing, but I haven't reread his filter yet. | ||
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CM8 There is nothing to say about this guy. Newb carding, completely noncommittal, way to shy, MIA. All that makes him Null, but also not useful for town at all. If there is a lack of targets for the lynch, he can clearly be killed. Has to step up massively. Shlog Rereading his filter, I can understand all the stuff brought against him so far. One thing I noticed is him pointing out LS though, which fits with NU initially targeting LS. Not sure if this is coincidence or coordinated smear. I somehow wish I would have read his filter without reading the cases here though. Well... vote is far away, for now he is scummy, but I wanna read it with a fresh mind during D2 again. And maybe there is more to read then. LS Interaction with NU makes him my #2 town behind emp. Luckily it will never get to a lylo with my, LS and Emp so I don't have to choose one! But hey, connfirming yourself town (or being confirmed) is nice, but not the goal of the game! Could you join the work please? | ||
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On December 01 2016 21:45 Rels wrote: NU is a spew robot LOL. This game is over Uhm, what I get from him or kinda townspews. But I still lack the scumspews. So who are your two topscums right now? Shlog and? You said it is not really SL's meta to bus, so who else? One of the inactives? TT? CM8? | ||
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On December 01 2016 22:28 LightningStrike wrote: Also Sicklucker had shown he can bus a teammate if needed i nthe past. He bussed his partner HTS in Void here was his filter there granted it was a while ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/475749-the-void-mafia?user=sicklucker Also now I just remembered who rolled mafia like 10 times in a row or something like that and I think Koshi played with him. Chairman Ray the guy who rolled mafia the most in a row on this site. Found this while looking at past games of sicklucker and checked the post of one of the games. How representative is that game? It doesn't even feel like I'm reading the same player -.- Or: how representative is this game here from him? Has he ever slacked this hard? As town or scum? | ||
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On December 01 2016 22:50 Rels wrote: We're sorry, but the post you're trying to make is over 100000 characters long. No one wants to read that much text! If you think you have a valid reason for wanting to make a post this big, bring this issue up in the Website Feedback forum. (Note: if you're doing a copy/paste from somewhere else, just summarize and link to the original source.) LOL Did you try to C+P an entire game? | ||
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On December 01 2016 22:55 LightningStrike wrote: Oh just a huge list of NU spews lmao. Should make you think, when someone compiles a list of your spews and it is >100000 characters. | ||
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But I have something else giving my strong vibes on Rels alignment, just wanna keep it for now... | ||
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so do you think Rels is bad town or does that make him scum? Not sure where you are going here. Like you lock SL to be scum, then do you think Rels is desperately trying to defend him here? Or do you just think he is doing terrible "reads"? | ||
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Just update me, I get that you are on the "Rels is scum" train, but who else would you pick as second scum right now? Or who are the likely candidates for you? | ||
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And it confuses the hell out of me what Rels is arguing here. I should probably stop townreading people for making completely outlandish and weird reads... Soon I'm out of targets if I continue doing that. Unless its the axis of inactivity, shlog+cm8 (would be a shame and a waste of time ^.^) @Rels really, can you post some stuff not related to NUs filter... I don't feel like this is getting us anywhere right now. | ||
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Is he always such a tunnel dweller? He spends the first 36 hours with nobody except me, then goes on with focusing on Rels entirely. There is like one comment on DF, and a 2 post conversation with Koshi in his filter. All questions outside of that are blocked with excuses of him being too lazy to do that. Like his entire play can be seen as a super tunnely townie, or a scum player who uses the tunnel excuse to never talk about anything else. I guess he is on my Neut-pile too. Gimme vig, and I will shoot him for his name butchery though. | ||
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On December 01 2016 23:51 Rels wrote: I will have a quick point about it. HF and marhgell in particular, you are very, very annoying to play with, regardless of your alignment. STOP asking me to do things. Marghell you don't know that, HF you do, I'm super active when I have time to play. In particular, calling me "bad town or scum" is making me want to fucking quit. You don't agree with the things I've said ? Fine. You think I'm scum ? OK. Stop telling me to do things that you prefer me to be doing and stop being calling me bad or scum. I know it's hypocritical 'cause I tend to do the same but I try to not do it when I catch myself doing it. Okay, I will try. Sorry. Given my own rather emotional reactions to similar instances I can understand you here. | ||
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On December 01 2016 06:48 Onegu wrote: HF TT SL Darthfolly the next group is like NU LS Shape. Uhm, besides one other long post from earlier, this was the only game related post in Onegus filter. Quite an achievement. Anyway, Onegu... I honestly have no fucking clue how you came to your townreads... And I also wonder, with your scumreads being cleared by the flip (or so you said)... Where are you now? I would love you having a sorted list telling us who your town/scumreads are in order, and like at least one line how you came to that conclusion. | ||
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On December 02 2016 01:23 Tictock wrote: Having internet issues at home so I'm better Nguyen forced to read and post via mobile. Means I won't be doing the filter dives of death and Shape that I wanted too. Thinking about the game this morning I'm thinking the answer might be as easy as Shape/Ch8. Otherwise I have a hard time seeing what mafia was doing in the latter half of the day as NU became the lynch. Checkm8 is also reminding me a bit of foreman from last game, who was a newbie that rolled scum and gave up posting after a day when he realized he had no way to keep up. It's possible Onegu is scum but his posts right after the lynch seem fairly towns to me actually. He was more happy about his own filter length than having caught scum. I feel like scum would feel more pressure to fake being happy about the lynch. LOL If this is true, there is the possibility the game ends in few hours. Nobody is killed, because scum fails to vote a kill. Instead Shlog and CM8 get modkilled for failing to post, after being already warned for failing to vote. Game ends, 0 town lost. Just thinking about this possibility kills my motivation to do my last 2 filter dives. -.- | ||
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On December 02 2016 02:04 emperorchampion wrote: Let's not get ahead of our selves since there's a lot of tin-foil that could be out there. I am fully aware. But my last game, I died N1, but the game ended D2, because one scum went inactive and got modkilled, and the other one was an easylynch D2 without defending himself. I thought it can't be shorter. So I'm just tinfoiling a possibility how it can be shorter in this game. I don't think (and hope) this is gonna happen but while the idea is demotivating I still enjoy it, if you know what I mean :D | ||
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Or call it reverse tinfoiling. Lemme be, but let's drop this. This isn't getting us anywhere. | ||
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You said you suspected TT at end of town, but now I don't see how he fits in your new scenarios... What do you make of him? | ||
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On December 02 2016 02:45 darthfoley wrote: EC, Mahrgell and SL???? REALLY? EC and mahrgell were town read pretty hard by everyone, and SL wasn't going to happen D1. These were terrible scum reads for the purpose of starting another actual wagon. Don't know how you think this is him actually trying to get out of a lynch. Seems very obvious to me that he was playing for the team. Not that I disagree with your general idea, but imho this part is factually incorrect. At this point, I had still said, that EC was one of my scumreads, if NU is green. I actually lobbied for opinion for Emp vs EC from pretty much everyone. And I'm pretty sure to recall that Emp was distrusted by others too. Just the redflip made everyone hardtown Emp. Similarly, myself. Just from my own feeling, I felt like I wasn't getting lynched anytime soon. (so same category as SL, I guess) But others may correct me, but I don't think I was close to top town on many lists. | ||
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And now to the general idea. Pure feeling dictated me exactly this idea too. It was pretty much the idea with which I went into my diving session this morning. (then I got distracted by Rels -.-) It just... lead to nowhere. If he was doing it for towncred, then whos towncred? Emp? Yeah, he got a shit ton of towncred from it. But I really believe he is town :D Koshi? Quite similar. Like I can see a lot of tinfoils involving Koshi. But I will let those rest for now. SL? Did he even get towncred from it? lol. Like you make it sound like this was some great elaborate bussing play with NU taking one for the team. This does not fit SLs play at all. Like I'm really not sold on him, and given his contributions so far he is pretty much on the same level as HF and CM8 for me... But if that is the case, then it certainly isn't a great elaborate play but pure chaos. Myself? I have great insider infos telling me that this isn't the case. Or towncred via on of his spews? If this was the case... It may actually be worth looking at who pointed out which spew. Doing this and hoping that town finds thsoe spews sounds like an awful idea. But if it is really this, then you could find both scum at once here. | ||
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On November 30 2016 01:42 LightningStrike wrote: Tone of TvT feels more natural while TvM feels unnatural ie like something feels forced by one side. EC vs NU seems like TvM on tone. I will look into more later when I get on a computer because quoting posts is a pain in the assignment on mobile. yep HF is spot on here. This is 4 hours before the post he just quoted and a bit after his initial TvM claim. | ||
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On December 02 2016 03:13 LightningStrike wrote: Cant remember if anyone asked me on that. It was me, and I was so nice to bring up a reminder a few posts up. | ||
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Let's do it quick this time - D1 lazy scum or lazy town, after rereading I still feel lazy town is more likely, there was one large list post which read well but had it obvious flaws as pointed out earlier - his ending of the day looked strange, but it follows this "lazy ..." stuff. - his N1 looks more active, finally. What I lack here is a clear direction. Like I see statements, judgements, but it ends here. Him going with "lets kill the 3 afks" fits the lazy scum narrative, but at the same time you can't ask afks, so well... I can somehow get behind that too So from only this, TT is just another fish in the neut pool for me. BUT... there is one thing... that confused me and I would like to have answers: Here HF is a townlean, although very weirdly put. (this was mentioned by several players) Before EoD, when he settled on the NU lynch now HF could very well be mafia. I don't read this as a direct contradiction to his first post, although I can see this being scummish to move of a read which was called out a lot for waffling. But that is not what I'm after. In his first content post after EoD now he wants to build a towncircle with Koshi, Rels (both locktown in his initial list), me (explained in that post) and HF. Where does HF come from? He didn't mention HF at all. HF certainly did not suddenly look better because NU flipped scum. And I didn't see any great posts from HF between EoD and TTs post to explainn this change of mind either. But somehow suddenly TT wanted to town circle with HF? I would love to know how this came together. | ||
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LOL, I just clicked that post again. He actually mentioned why he hardtowns HF. -.- So lets drp all this, and just call TT lazy neut with a minor town lean. | ||
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At this point his filter just reads well. Like fluent well thought out points, a clear train of thought. The COPCHECK stuff is pretty wifom to interpret so not getting into that. Like he has absolutely nothing to make me doubt him, but due to his lack of commital it is also hard to completely townlock him. Solid townlean it is. | ||
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Scummish: Shlog - I read him after a lot was said against him, felt like those allegations were true. If there was a lynch, I would lynch him. But I want to read him again during the day in a less biased state of mind. I just don't like this guy HF - His number of posts does not really change his lack of real activity. Has been on 2 tunnels so far and openly celebrates his unwillingness to look deeper at other players or do anything besides tunneling. Oh and if I would be undecided between him and anyone else I would policy lynch him for this alone. This followup makes me actually feel very bad about him. Exchanging "i'm not being a dick and wont try to make you uncomfortable" for "don't scumread me" is quite pathetic. Additionally him claiming himself to be toptown (have I mentioned I hate that?) without basically anything speaking for that feels almost like baiting for protection. I don't see a world where scum would lynch him. The Pool of Neuts (which is somehow very connected with the pool of barely actives..) CM8 - Nothing to say. The main reason I feel negative about him is the lack of targets and there has to be 2 scums. Also the afk scum story would kinda explain this weird D1. Even if he upgrades, I wouldn't send him to lylo! TT - again, low activity makes him difficult to judge. He is in a similar place with CM8, but general feeling on him is a tad better. I can see him easily make a better impression later and worth keeping around to lylo SL - He is kinda different from the other 2. If he is scum, I absolutely don't understand his play. If he is town, I don't understand it either but may call it most lazy. He is certainly not the guy I would want to go to lylo with. Onegu - Almost forgot about him... I still have some open question to him somewhere... No reason to scumread him, but besides this NU-interaction which I'm not so certain about there is also no reason to townread him either Let's be friends... for now Rels - this may come as a surprise... But Explanation is at bottom of the list. Koshi - I certainly don't want to see him before D4 for his NU involvement. Then I will start to massively tinfoil him and I will vote him over anybody at lylo. DF - Reads all around well. I like him. My filter dive was not with full brain capacity and I havent seen anything to lock him town, but I feel good with him. LS - uhm, I admit I lazily read him. Probably among the first to reevaluate. I felt his interaction with NU can't be MvM. But there has been some stuff against him, and his wrong defense(he did exactly what HF said but claimed it not to be that) vs HFs argument unsettled me. Wanna marry me? Emp - Emp vs NU was not MvM. period. Absolute end of story. If it was, I somehow end in lylo with Emp and lose, I offer my sig for whatever they want. regarding Rels: there was something I noticed earlier, but I wanted more reactions from others regarding him after my "case" on him, as I felt this discussion was still potentially productive regarding others people alignment. This post I can absolutely not see from scum. case1: Rels is scum with SL. Rels should absolutely know this bus is in SLs range if the scumQT has more than 10 posts. And he/they should know others will point that out correctly. Unlike this is the failed spew of the century... NO WAY case2: Rels is scum, SL is not. Why make this comment? SL is one of the main lynch candidates with Koshi on his ass. There is no need to say that. Even if he believes this to be true, just don't say anything. If he knows it is false, even worse. People will prove him wrong and he looks shit. Or people won't do it and he just did a great contribution to prevent a mislynch. This is only one isolated thing though. But sometimes it needs just one big thing to convince me. Like if his entire play feels scummy I will rethink this at some point. But certainly not now! | ||
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I hope there is still a game for me to play tomorrow ^.^ | ||
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On December 02 2016 05:11 Rels wrote: hahaha =D The links you posted are NAI for HF, he can be super annoying as either alignment. The first things you're saying are the best actually. He COULD be scum playing the "I don't really care about this game" card but I don't think so anymore, because his reads flow and change logically, and more importantly, I don't have the feeling that he's hiding behind tunnels to not do anything else. First of all. I already said, that the first link for my is ust policy lynch territory. The second one is really not. Like I have no clue how the TL mafia meta goes. But hailing players as such great mafia players, when this seems to be entirely based on them establishing such a bullshit meta and not ever being questioned y anyone else out of some weird kind of respect for it seems fucking weird. Now to the rest: I am not disagreeing with the part that his reads were kinda fluent. Hell, his "advice" to me regarding how to improve my play was actually good. But the point is, that every semi competent player should be able to do fluent reads when he singles out only 2 or 3 people out of 13. Other players(town and scum) make weird stuff. ump on those and score your points. Where scum really trips is when they have to deal those players who are more difficult. When they have to commit to interpretations etc. Again, you tell me this is his meta. If it is, great, then his play is not scum indicative. But it still has to be questioned. Next you say he is not hiding behind it? Really? Are we even in the same game? I'm not in the mood to filter dive right now, but from memory I know that when he was on me, I asked several questions regarding other players, wanted reads on anyone but me, he refused, saying that he is all on me, and doesnt care about anyone els,e because at work. He later came back, and didn't bother one bit to look a bit broader. Later on, he replaced me with you, now all he did was going after you. Again, there were several instances were he actively said that he is not willing to dive other filters and refused to answer questions. Really? He is not hiding behind this bullshit meta you are so willing to accept? Now look at his defenses. On December 02 2016 05:32 Holyflare wrote: I honestly don't get how anyone can say I haven't been active either. I've made a lot of cases and good pushes. Not sure in what world he is living, but nope. Simply nope. His entire acitivity was on a handful players. If we do not udge acitvity by post count (Onegu would also do really well in that category) but how much of the game the person covered, than HF is in deep shit territory. On December 02 2016 05:36 Holyflare wrote: It's also not pathetic in the slightest. I get tunneled on people that call me mafia almost exclusively and rels looks kind of the same so giving each other breathing room is the best thing to do. Next post. Oh, wasn't he just a second ago so certain how great his play was? Suddenly he is getting tunneled on players who scumread him. Sounds like absolutely great mafia play. And yes, I completely agree that sometimes giving each other breathing room is a great idea. But when someone tells you to stop this tone, then going in, escalating it further and then using this as a bargain chip to get your breathing room? Nope! And seemingly this is completely okay for everyone. On December 02 2016 08:21 Holyflare wrote: So many reasons. The primary one being I'm not a retard. Okay, not much time has passed. But somehow I feel people are again gonna accept this. He did the same D1 and everybody was fine with it. Today I won't. If this is really all he has to bring, he should die. Like until now I tried to pay respect to what people told me about the meta on TL and in forum mafia in general. But this case I really can not do that, because it reminds me of last game. You were in there. I called out Foreman for exactly the same shit on D1. That he was scum in this case can be called noobs luck on my part. But anyway. I felt my case was reasonable. But then everybody jumped me. "But Mahrgell, him not answering your questions and giving you a finger, this could be part of his character and meta. This is really nothing." And Foreman grinned happily and didn't answer "But Mahrgell, him not caring about large parts of the game and publicly celebrating this arrogant and ignorant attitude, this could be really part of his meta, dont blame him for that" and again Foreman grinned happily and continued. Foreman then went MIA though, so the problem resolved itself. Like I had seen a comparison with Foreman earlier this game. Not sure who it was (CM8?). But really. If there is any Foreman equivalent in this game, it is HF. And people are completely willing to let this happen and it fucking annoys me. He loses nothing as town if he drops this ans finally starts answering and caring. But it makes his scum play pretty damn easy when everyone lets it go. And then I see people telling me "but keep HF alive for the first couple of days, lynch him later, he is a great contributor" Seriously, I was doing this with Koshi. But I have no fucking reason to do that with HF. I simply don't see great contributions. What has he actually done this game? Like if you compare the contributions of yourself(Rels), DF, Koshi, Emp to him... Is HF really the guy who can be called a leading contributor? My answer is no. TLDR: ##vote Holyflare | ||
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But... Shapelog actually dropped a post telling us about the delays. Shapelog had not yet a chance to defend himself. I want to see his defense. And he will have to will all the shit thrown at him. Why waste an day waiting for this? Like I go through various scenarios in my mind and I don't see how this train is helping town right now. 1) Shapelog is scum 1a) He gets lynched in the in end, either because lack of defense, sucky defense or whatever. Easy game. Okay, This is the dream scenario. In this case nothing was done wrong here. 1b) He comes back, defends himself convincingly, now we look for an alternative. As we were fooled by shapelog we most likely get a mislynch here if he deflects it right. - this could be entirely avoided, if we do the scum hunting for his mate before he comes back. Also losing time is certainly bad. 2) Shapelog is town 2a) gets lynched anyway. Again, a dream scenario. Just not for town. We basically circlejerk 48 hours on shlog, then get a mislynch and suddenly the game is really damn wide open 2b) he finally shows up, makes a convincig defense, we move off him. Still... time is lost. My point is: Even if shapelog is scum. There is another scum too. If shapelog comes back, his defense sucks, LYNCH HIM. Don't hesitate a second then. But don't sit here, waiting and praying/assuming the easiest case (1a), which is probably an autowin. This idling around does not even commit his mate to anything. His mate will not magically pop up and be like "HEY GUYS; SHAPELOG CONFIRMED TOWN" Hell, even in scenario one, shapelogs mate profits from this shit. Scum shows when they have to commit. If we autopilot a shapelog kill... Nothing will come from it. So stop being lazy and play. | ||
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On December 02 2016 07:45 Tictock wrote: Shit Koshi you played too well and got yourself shot. Not the worst thing ever though as we seem to have a pretty good handle on this game without extra blue info. This is a post I simply don't like. This does not instantly make TT cuz, but it spreading a mindset I simply have troubles with. You don't lose your cop, tell him he played too well, but no worries, easy win and then turns into idle mode with the Shlog train. | ||
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On December 02 2016 07:49 Tictock wrote: I'm kinda assuming it's setup #3 with a flipped Framer and Cop. Maybe JK decided he had a better TR on someone else, also possibly got RB'd. And this is the second TT post I really don't like. Like to make this post, you have to be either completely passed out (it isn't that late in the US yet, is it?) or you are actively spewing, hoping for a townie to pick it up. First of all, there is no indication of this being setup #3. If he bothered looking at the setups, he should have seen this can be #1 or #3. And then, if he really thinks this is #3. What is he talking about JK being RBed? JK can't be RBed. There is no RB in #3. And there is no JK in #1. Now I know people love to townread for "oh... this slip... naaaahhh, scum would never ever do that, also they know the setup" And this is my issue with this post. This mentality is so common that "accidentally" spewing that is really damn easy. But maybe it is just me... But I can't imagine mytownieself, opening post#1, checking for which setup it is, and then make such a mistake. (okay, maybe I could, when being in the same shape as I was when I did my last filterdives... but not getting those vibes from TT) Combined with the previous thing... This makes me really rethink my judgement of TT. Like still, all his actions can be explained in a townie and a scummy way. So far I sided with his actions being more likely to be townie. But those 2 are imho more likely to come from scum. Brings him back to full neut at this point and pretty high up in my "should certainly check this guy again" priority list. | ||
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CM8 and Shlog can not be scum together. This is simply ruled out. Unless you are saying that they both risked being mod killed for not posting the entire night after being warned for not voting, but somehow submitted a nightkill! There is at least one active scum around. And now if you apply this logic, this is actually making the Shlog train much weaker. Assume you give CM8 a chance of 30% to be scum. This means Shlog has maximum 70% if there is guaranteed to be one scum between those two. And there is still the chance neither is scum. If you now tell me SHLOG SCUM 100%... Okay. Then you have to really convince me why CM8 can't be scum. | ||
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On December 02 2016 09:42 LightningStrike wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 02 2016 09:25 mahrgell wrote: First of all. I already said, that the first link for my is ust policy lynch territory. The second one is really not. Like I have no clue how the TL mafia meta goes. But hailing players as such great mafia players, when this seems to be entirely based on them establishing such a bullshit meta and not ever being questioned y anyone else out of some weird kind of respect for it seems fucking weird. Now to the rest: I am not disagreeing with the part that his reads were kinda fluent. Hell, his "advice" to me regarding how to improve my play was actually good. But the point is, that every semi competent player should be able to do fluent reads when he singles out only 2 or 3 people out of 13. Other players(town and scum) make weird stuff. ump on those and score your points. Where scum really trips is when they have to deal those players who are more difficult. When they have to commit to interpretations etc. Again, you tell me this is his meta. If it is, great, then his play is not scum indicative. But it still has to be questioned. Next you say he is not hiding behind it? Really? Are we even in the same game? I'm not in the mood to filter dive right now, but from memory I know that when he was on me, I asked several questions regarding other players, wanted reads on anyone but me, he refused, saying that he is all on me, and doesnt care about anyone els,e because at work. He later came back, and didn't bother one bit to look a bit broader. Later on, he replaced me with you, now all he did was going after you. Again, there were several instances were he actively said that he is not willing to dive other filters and refused to answer questions. Really? He is not hiding behind this bullshit meta you are so willing to accept? Now look at his defenses. Not sure in what world he is living, but nope. Simply nope. His entire acitivity was on a handful players. If we do not udge acitvity by post count (Onegu would also do really well in that category) but how much of the game the person covered, than HF is in deep shit territory. Next post. Oh, wasn't he just a second ago so certain how great his play was? Suddenly he is getting tunneled on players who scumread him. Sounds like absolutely great mafia play. And yes, I completely agree that sometimes giving each other breathing room is a great idea. But when someone tells you to stop this tone, then going in, escalating it further and then using this as a bargain chip to get your breathing room? Nope! And seemingly this is completely okay for everyone. Okay, not much time has passed. But somehow I feel people are again gonna accept this. He did the same D1 and everybody was fine with it. Today I won't. If this is really all he has to bring, he should die. Like until now I tried to pay respect to what people told me about the meta on TL and in forum mafia in general. But this case I really can not do that, because it reminds me of last game. You were in there. I called out Foreman for exactly the same shit on D1. That he was scum in this case can be called noobs luck on my part. But anyway. I felt my case was reasonable. But then everybody jumped me. "But Mahrgell, him not answering your questions and giving you a finger, this could be part of his character and meta. This is really nothing." And Foreman grinned happily and didn't answer "But Mahrgell, him not caring about large parts of the game and publicly celebrating this arrogant and ignorant attitude, this could be really part of his meta, dont blame him for that" and again Foreman grinned happily and continued. Foreman then went MIA though, so the problem resolved itself. Like I had seen a comparison with Foreman earlier this game. Not sure who it was (CM8?). But really. If there is any Foreman equivalent in this game, it is HF. And people are completely willing to let this happen and it fucking annoys me. He loses nothing as town if he drops this ans finally starts answering and caring. But it makes his scum play pretty damn easy when everyone lets it go. And then I see people telling me "but keep HF alive for the first couple of days, lynch him later, he is a great contributor" Seriously, I was doing this with Koshi. But I have no fucking reason to do that with HF. I simply don't see great contributions. What has he actually done this game? Like if you compare the contributions of yourself(Rels), DF, Koshi, Emp to him... Is HF really the guy who can be called a leading contributor? My answer is no. TLDR: ##vote Holyflare We not lynching HF today unless for some reason something happens that make us lynch someone else. Who are we? Speak for yourself. I very willing to lynch HF for what he has shown so far and if he continues doing exactly that. I don't see the much fabled benefit of keeping him around until late. Sure, if shlogs defense sucks, kill him. But until then? HF it is for me. | ||
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I really didn't want to post but I just had to let it out. Wouldn't sleep anyway. | ||
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Just read through, at least my rant about time being wasted was unwarranted it seems. (or did it achieve its purpose as wakeupcall?^^) I guess I will just answer going through, but ignore everything regarding SL and its implications for now... This certainly deserves an extra post. | ||
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On December 02 2016 10:14 Tictock wrote: While I agree with the general sentiment of your rant (I don't get the reverence people have for HF either) what did you make of my reasons to TR him? Not just the stuff about EoD either, the stuff I mentioned as townpoints in my list post. Uhm, I actually considered those but in the end it felt like were are moving into WIFOM territory too much here. Like I have again and again looked into the possibility of NU "dying for the team". I really wanted to believe this is true. And I completely and utterly failed over and over to find it. Koshi is townconfirmed, I stand with my opinion on Emp, if it was for SL then it was awfully executed (and more SL once im done with the regular stuff here..) Well, I know my own alignment. So at this point, and imho this fits the way NU played the entire day, NU was completely and utterly shellshocked. This wasn't the great sacrifice play of the year. This was NU, who back of several warnings to change his toxic meta suddenly rolled scum for the first time and had no fucking clue what to do. + Show Spoiler + not relevant to my reads, but at this point I want to say props to NU: Yes, the play deserves a lot of flak most likely. But it would have been the easiest for him to go with "One more game" and just do what he always did. This play would have made for very easy scum play. And basically it was this expectation I had from scumNU and why I really couldn't believe he was scum for a very long time. But here he imho showed character and I value that very highly! Like I really tried to give him outs. All he had to do was drop some serious reads to convince me. He knows I'm a sucker for this. And without me he would have been at 3. Emp was around, and I felt he wasn't locked either. Koshi was fairly determined, and SL was completely gone, but still. But as others also concluded... He did absolutely nothing to get out of this shit. He rolled over and died. And this basically started when he went all "Koshi case so gud, gg" into repeat x100 "I'm town" So in the way I currently see the game, he did not die EoD1. He died way earlier. And this imho removes this argument of "HF would try to save his framer at EoD". At the same time, I feel like if there is an active scum, he would certainly push the "NU died for a greater cause, lets find it" narrative. So... not sure you had anything other going for HF, if so, please tell me what it is, but this isn't an argument for my view how the game went. | ||
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On December 02 2016 10:22 Tictock wrote: First off, thanks for following your WoT posts with a one liner kus I don't want to quote a WoT on my phone. Second what's the problem with throwing down a vote right away? If Shape comes back and is super town you move the vote, otherwise just let it ride. We should use the time waiting for Shape to respond discussing who the last scum might be though. Don't want to waste the day age voting. My issue was with the attitude in the thread. All I saw when I looked into it were 3 people starting the day with "lets party, vote shlog, ggbye" (and a bunch of absolutely nonsensical HF posts...) Maybe it was also me being pissed about the general TL player attitude as pointed out in my HF post. But well... Let's take it for what is and call it a wakeup call. If it worked, great. If activity would have risen without it... Still not regretting it. | ||
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On December 02 2016 13:05 Tictock wrote: Nah it's totes possible man. Send the kill in via phone or w/e but don't have the energy to actually make posts. Shape even posted RIGHT after start of day, so even if CM8 is scum and has given up on the game then at least shape could have posted the kill. Maybe it's not Shape/CM8, but this is not a good reason why it's not them. You are assuming a little too much. Uhm, I actually had to read the rules aafter EoN because I was sure they would both be modkilled for not posting. My line of thought was, that it requires tremendous "balls" (but honestly I dont see it as something positive here) to risk getting modkilled for lack of activity. Both were warned, both didn't post the entire night. If they really played the "surely btdt wont dare to modkill us, and lets submit a NK while not posting" card, I will have serious respect issues, but at least to me this is not a viable play. But I don't really want to discuss modactions/kills, so let's drop this conversation. | ||
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On December 02 2016 13:47 Shapelog wrote: I am going to say it very clearly, and this goes for everyone. If your going to just ignore half of what I say in my posts. Then just tell me so I can focus on catching scum and not defending myself. There is nothing more I hate as town then when I try to actually be helpful and people just roll their eyes at me. It's been bothering me for a while. True, I sometimes don't "act" the ways to get that all the time. But I do expect when I do to be taken seriously and analzyed correctly. I'm sorry I had to prioritize my real life shit over this game. But life is life. This isn't. So if you going to as I said. Not read my posts seriosly, or with such a bias that you don' fully analzye what I have to say. Just tell me. I keep shut till the last hour and start posting my reads, scum list, and anything else worth sharing. For which u will have to look at without bias, without ingnoring me, because I would of had just flipped town. I will just go ahead and say: Please do you reads stuff. I read your later defense, I can follow some thoughts, I think a lot is WIFOM, but in the end, I certainly prefer the reads stuff and would prefer to judge you by that. And I guess I will ask some questions about your own actions later. | ||
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On December 02 2016 15:58 Holyflare wrote: Holy shit you spout so much nonsense. Oh woe is me, mafia must have an active player so it can't be Shapelog and cm8 even though shapelog LITERALLY POSTED AFTER THE DEADLINE AND LEFT AGAIN. I'm sorry if you don't like my play this game, that's your own fault though. I've tunneled 2-3 people and that's about 2-3 people more than: Shapelog Sicklucker Cm8 Onegu So why do you have such a big problem with exclusively my play? I've pushed rels logically and you sheeped literally all the points. I find it hard to believe you couldn't see the town intentions in my post when you literally agreed with 80% of them. I'm not going to change, Shapelog is still mafia and likely with cm8 or Onegu (simply because he hard defended me). Vote me if you want but it's a waste. You are again missing my point or deflecting it intentionally. My point is not, that you are the guy with the least content. My point is, that you massively cherry pick your content to put yourself in a corner where you can never be attacked for. I completely understand that this is very useful longterm for a player who has tons of games here and wants to play more. It makes town more relaxing and scum play easier. Like I even voiced my own concerns after last game, that with the style I play I will have huge issues to actually get a viable meta which does not get me killed. But I honestly don't care about your thoughts about your longterm meta. I care about this game. And I want you out of this corner. And if you really insist to stay there, you are scum to me. And this is really the main difference between you and those inactives(or formerly inactives). They are also completely lacking content. They are also sitting in a dark corner which could easily hide scum. But they did not over and over publicly refused and celebrated the fact that they won't leave it. They just stayed there by doing nothing. (I acknowledge that if they are reading the thread actively, laugh at me and simply don't post, they are doing the same as you... But I for now believe in them being really afk and at worst it is a coinflip, while your case is clear) | ||
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On December 02 2016 16:14 Holyflare wrote: Also, df is 100% town. There's no way I basically claim blue like 6 times and he doesn't kill me over koshi. Uhm... your blue claims were fucking awful. Like I even mentioned it before EoN that you are protection baiting. And if you really got protection (which automatically means that you aren't blue, with Koshi flipping cop) this would be a damn sad affair. And instead of telling the world how retarded it was to not protect Koshi, you should probably point at yourself. | ||
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On December 02 2016 20:14 Holyflare wrote: And I'll tell you why you hate it so much. We've all played a lot of games together, we get a reputation. I am nkd night 1 to 2 almost every game I ever enter. People can't really read me so they rely on either me being killed or me pushing a mafia lynch to confirm myself. I'm not immune to being lynched, I've been lynched day 1 before easily. It happens. But to say that people treat me as some immune person and it annoys you when I'm playing like shit is wrong. They do that because I often step up my game as it goes on or I get the motivation to solve it. I also would argue I'm not playing like shit in the slightest when you have agreed with me at EVERY point in my game. If you didn't write so much I would without a doubt call you mafia. You've: Flat out agreed with my nu assessment and we shared that read. You pretty much copied and pasted my koshi read. You've sheeped my rels read and given the same points for town reading rels after I have. You share the same scum reads I do. At what point do you admit I'm solidly town? I don't read myself. I don't know if I would read myself as town. If you say I was looking exactly like you, than I would probably not do it. Then again I don't elieve we look the same, as I think I cover the entire game and respond to people instead of yelling out my town confirmedness. And your entire refusal to discuss my argument but bullshit repeat of why you are town is annoying me. Not sure how many times I said it this game or last game, but I do not believe that there are many "I am town because..." arguments. As you liked my Koshi rant, you should actually know that too. But for absurdly weird reasons this is what is ultra prominent here. I have no experience with forum mafia and it confuses me. But I play with my judgement I have gotten in RL mafia. And there I basically never accept those. Every statement made this way is entirely WIFOM. This is also why I usually insist on people doing reads on other people and commiting to stuff instead of defending themselves. And when I really look for defenses, I don't want them to tell me "LOCK TOWN CONFIRMED" HF style or "IM 100% TOWN, BELIEVE ME" NU style... But I want them to walk me through their thought process and intentions, so >>> I <<< can judge if this makes sense from a town perspective. If I'm on their ass, I certainly have a solid idea of how their actions would make sense as scum play. People trying to do that judgement for me what would make sense for them, if they were town and if they were scum... yeah... waste of time. | ||
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About shlog... I will wait for his second promised part. I don't feel like going through his stuff, than redoing everything i a few hours. Also his own reads interest me way more than his defense, even though I will reread his filter with his defense in mind once I'm onto that. and now I guess... SL time it is... | ||
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@TT: didn't see you comment on this one Maybe missed it, but I think you commented all my other posts but this one. | ||
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First of all... I have a fair few gripes with players, but this one tops it ^.^ Like if I would read my own HF rants and then decide to trigger myself, I think I would play like sicklucker ^^ (100% sure this isn't the case, but just saying...) Let's start with the conclusion first: sicklucker easily overtook HF as my vote of choice here. Not because HF suddenly looks better, but because sicklucker looks way worse. Like I blame HF for not coming out of his corner to start playing in a more open field to evaluate his play. But SL came out, and he intentionally played bad. Thus ##unvote ##vote sicklucker If I would have to summarize his posts quickly it would be: - shits up the thread and makes no sense - intentionally makes reads out of thin air and for false reasons - the timing of his entry was completely off - his "explanation" of his D1/N1 play or the lack there of is... bad. And honestly I don't feel like doing a post by post analysis here. Pretty much all his posts fall in above mentioned categories. Like there is not a single judgement he makes regarding himself or other players(HF, shlog, DF, myself) that I can follow. + Show Spoiler + I guess I respond to the one concerning me though: On December 02 2016 09:59 sicklucker wrote: lol theres no way a mafia newb like mahrgell has the balls to go after hf this hard as mafia Do we know each other? If you had paid the slightest amount of attention to this game (or read my previous game, which I don't expect anybody to do, but obv some did) you would have noticed by now that this is absolutely not my style. I don't give a damn about reputation. I factor it in when I judge people, but in no world will I stand there and think "Uh, this guy is good, I better not kill him". I don't believe in people talking about what they would(n't) do as scum. But I tell you one thing: Too much respect is not part of my scum play or any play. Oh, and I hate people basing their reads on my game count. Especially his self view is troubling. I had issues with Koshi and HF about their weird kind of postulated image. But I somehow still felt this was more of an issue with character or play style. With SL I can't honestly believe that he was in any way a driving force behind the NU lynch. I can't imagine him really thinking that ins some weird fairy world he would be more than a townlead for anyone and he actually should know from this thread with everyone posting thoughts, that basically only afk-shlog and afk-cm8 are standing between him and a lynch. Which leads me to the conclusion that he does not believe it. Similar to his "reads" he is just shitting up. Point being though, while accidentally doing bad shit is often considered a towntell I can't find a single interpretation of where a townie intentionally does this. I know that the WIFOM here is "But then a scum would never do it either". Problem is... There is simply no valid townview, so the scumview has to be accepted. I was refusing D1 and N1 to believe this can really be scum play. Very similar to how I felt about NU day1. But I simply cant hold this ground any longer. | ||
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I'm fully willing to take part in the shlog investigation, I would really like to have HF discussed, and if CM8 or Onegu come back, torture them for hours until they spew. But I can't see what they can do to look more scum than SL. And with the way SL is playing I don't feel like questioning him actually and don't see what he could say to change my mind unless he does a 180° on everything and then gives the explanation of the century how this can be townplay. *If there is a close race between 2 others I will come to consolidate. | ||
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Filled the thread enough. Sorry for falling back to my old wall-of-text style -.- | ||
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And I really don't feel like argueing how I play as scum. What makes me more curious though is that you say his read on me makes perfect sense, because scum!mahrgell would not dare to go after his gloryness... And then at the same time suddenly swing back on me, because mahrgell must obviously be scum!mahrgell as he goes after his gloryness which is completely outrageous. I'm completely fine with you tunneling me because I somehow made posts attacking you. But at least try to be consistent for a few seconds. That you obviously feel his read on you makes sense doesn't surprise me though. Also I came off Rels for something completely different. And I posted it. It was him basically giving wrong meta information about SL. I was off him very quick after my large post, but kept the thing going to gather information. I later clarifified this before EoN. Also could you stop this "you had a boner for rels because HF said so" story? I had a boner for Rels at EoD because his one self declaration, something which I feel I overjumped, but still. And then I had a boner for Rels when I actually started filter diving through the night and felt he was bad. Yes, this incorporated the one argument you brought against him, which I had missed earlier. But if you feel I'm sheeping you all game, you really need to check your ego. | ||
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I hope he posts soon though, otherwise I will have to wait until the later evening before I can comment on it. But I appreciate your concerns/questions and will have them in mind when looking at him. --- Also I noticed I raged a lot lately...Sorry for that, ego and emotions can't be completely turned off (and this shouldn't be an excuse, I know and thus it is not and I really want to apologize) I will try to tone down a bit again. No this does not get me off either HF or SL, but I will try my best to present my vies in a calmer manner ^.^ Taking a walk now, this helped earlier. | ||
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On December 03 2016 02:27 Tictock wrote: Your conclusion here is correct, but let me tell you a story about how the bolder line of thought can lead you astray. Long long ago, in a thread not so far away, a dude named Tictock rolled scum for the first time. His teammates names are unimportant so let's call them X and Y. After a day full of spamming and saying whatever he felt he needed to our hero Tictock had managed to avoid most of the suspicion and even helped get his buddy X out from the spotlight just enough that Town decided to hang what turned out to be their only blue role. The blue claimed far too late and our hero Tictock laughed at Town's mistake safely riding an alternate wagon. His buddy X however was voting for the blue and in a moment of panicked genius X invited right at EoD without placing a new vote. Town was shocked, and amazed at X's bravery. He had risked the mighty mod hammer by technically not voting, and thus they concluded he could never be Scum. Tictock, X, and Y celebrated their success and applauded X for his maneuver. As the Days went by X became more and more fearful and spoke less and less, Y eventually faultered and was found out by the Town. In the end though our hero Tictock did enough talking and X had gained so much respect for his risking the mod hammer that they managed to subvert the town and rid themselves of the Holy Guardians doo-gooders once and for all. + Show Spoiler [TLDR] + In my first mafia game, Holy Guardians, I had a teammate get insane towncred by unvoting off the D1 lynch right at deadline when the guy claimed blue. Everyone said there was no way Mafia would risk a modkill trying to save a blue role. We easily rode that sentiment to victory despite my buddy never being able to keep himself posting more than the bare minimum. Acknowledged, then I will try to ban that reasoning from my mind and I think this discussion can be considered finished. But thanks. I didn't know this was really viable/tolerated. | ||
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On December 03 2016 02:53 Tictock wrote: Humm expected a bit more activity while I slept. I hope we don't have to wait half a phase to hear from Rels again. At this point I think it's safe to say CM8 has given up on this game. I'm kinda with Gell on waiting for Shapes reads but I also don't see anything in his posts thus far that make me think anything but scum. HF did a nice summary of what felt wrong with his posts today. I suppose if nothing is happening I'll try and filter Onegu and darth. I'd still like to know how in the world Onegu had me as like top teir town on D1. Has anything come out of those searches? With everyone disappearing we have time to talk ^.^ (though I would prefer to talk HF and SL, but there seems absolutely no interest at all to do that...) | ||
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On December 03 2016 04:08 emperorchampion wrote: Can you provide some examples of point 2? Can you expand on point 3? Honestly, some stuff had been mentioned before, and the rest I didn't feel like detailing. I for once wanted to keep a post short... But I guess... You really want me to drop wots. But let's go for it. Gimme a bit of time. | ||
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On December 03 2016 09:33 Tictock wrote: Really don't feel like doing another of those. Feel fine with lynching Shape still. I'll be really surprised if the last 2 mafia are not in Shape/CM8/Onegu/SL. @Gell if you wanna talk about HF I'm all ears but I still think he is town and even if I had more doubt I think there are far better targets. I don't entirely disagree on there being better targets. Then again, I just went into SLs filter again and it read much better than what my memory gave me yesterday. Like this runthrough does make him still shady but not this "wtf is he doing" - kind of shady I had in mind yesterday. His tone completely ticks me off though. I will put my thoughts on him in an extra post. Like right now I think I will take a step back and reevalutate everything. I really have to do that with a clear mind. I would have hoped I had this earlier this morning already :/ So sleep over everything. Then reread SL again. Reread HF again. Hope that Shlog posted and finally do his stuff. | ||
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I feel not as bad anymore as I did in the morning, but I still not feel good. But I will reevaluate later again, just dropping what is in my mind currently. Honestly, I don't expect anyone to make sense of this list, it will probably just end as a reminder to myself what I felt here. But if someone feels something of this is valuable, go for it. But I will make something more readable after reevaluation. Just marking stuff down as I go though the filter from EoN to now. - he drops into the thread rather soonish after the EoN - calls out no medic - claims that HF must be clearly the protected one - HF was far from toptown on pretty much any night list, and SL later even posted that HFs great crumbs were obv wrong - I won't speculate too much, but if you ask me, who was protected, I would bet (knowing that it wasn't Koshi) a lot on Emp, with him being townlocked by literally everyone. And it was Koshi who iirc hinted towards Rels being a likely lynch (read: a good protection target) - talks about Koshi and the JK. (this actually disturbed me this morning more than it does now that I reread it though, as the post could be purely hypothetical as in "IF there was a JK and IF it would have targeted koshi" I felt more like this was tmi but right now I actually feel somehow okay) - answers to dead Koshi throwing stuff against him. - his general order of posting somehow makes me doubt he just joined back. Like... I don't know, call it gutread. But I can't follow. - I'm a sucker for this "do your metathingie on me [and confirm me town] and then listen exactly to what I say" - He really hasn't given much reason at all this game to listen what he says. If his NU afk lynch is his only argumen and we assume him town... this still does not give any of his future reads any more weight. And given out of the blue reads so far... - The DF case reads actually better thought out than what I had in mind. I hink I discarded it, because it felt like this was already discussed over and over with a different conclusion. But let's have SL have a different opinion here. - I hate his post on me. Whoever was with me in the last game know how those kind of reads on me make me really alert. Also I don't believe my play in this game justifies this kind of read at all. Do it CM8... maybe. Do it on me? GRRR. Maybe I think too highly of myself here though (or everyone else too lowly :D:D:D) - him explaining this "why would HF not NK Koshi thing"... I don't know if this is kinda like a thing between the more well known players here, to make such posts of lengths ignoring any facts but just to tell each other how great they are. Well given that both love to tell everyone how great they are themselves, maybe occasionally doing that with each other bounds them. - But basically the entire post starts of 2 completely wrong premises. First of all HF was not toptown. Secondly if HF was scum, he would have felt like this is an easy win? I think nobody doubts HF has a huge ego. But really? Scum loses their Framer Day1, they are now playing 2v10, with 2 blues out there. And HF would feel like "all dandy boys, easiest game of my life". Like at this point I really have to question how people make up the weirdest excuses for HF. First HF would never accept his Framer to just pass out Day1, then suddenly HF would feel this is absolutely no problem and he easily got this game. Okay. At least everyone making/accepting the first should call out the second and reverse. - points out his reasoning for lynching NU. Okay. If this was his reasoning (and again, we assume SL to be town confirmed) this really does not convince me at all to sheep him as he asked for earlier. - claims he didnt try to get towncred from it. OKAY. Really? Like the only defense he ever brought was "I was clearly driving force behind the lynch against NU" - Besides that he should be fully aware that he wasn't, claiming that he never tried to take towncred is... uhk... - next post he repeats the story about him being so influential (honestly, did anyone even bother using SL's "point" against NU???) and tries to take towncred for it -more DF stuff, as detailed earlier, rereading it makes it a bit more logical than what I had in mind. -claims he tunneled 2 ppl. Uh.. I guess with enough ego you can call his NU "read" a tunnel? - uhks... talks about HF being JK'ed. This time no hypetheticals. This IS tmi. | ||
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##unvote SL, HF or Shlog it is, I guess. | ||
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On December 03 2016 09:43 Rels wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 02 2016 09:25 mahrgell wrote: First of all. I already said, that the first link for my is ust policy lynch territory. The second one is really not. Like I have no clue how the TL mafia meta goes. But hailing players as such great mafia players, when this seems to be entirely based on them establishing such a bullshit meta and not ever being questioned y anyone else out of some weird kind of respect for it seems fucking weird. Now to the rest: I am not disagreeing with the part that his reads were kinda fluent. Hell, his "advice" to me regarding how to improve my play was actually good. But the point is, that every semi competent player should be able to do fluent reads when he singles out only 2 or 3 people out of 13. Other players(town and scum) make weird stuff. ump on those and score your points. Where scum really trips is when they have to deal those players who are more difficult. When they have to commit to interpretations etc. Again, you tell me this is his meta. If it is, great, then his play is not scum indicative. But it still has to be questioned. Next you say he is not hiding behind it? Really? Are we even in the same game? I'm not in the mood to filter dive right now, but from memory I know that when he was on me, I asked several questions regarding other players, wanted reads on anyone but me, he refused, saying that he is all on me, and doesnt care about anyone els,e because at work. He later came back, and didn't bother one bit to look a bit broader. Later on, he replaced me with you, now all he did was going after you. Again, there were several instances were he actively said that he is not willing to dive other filters and refused to answer questions. Really? He is not hiding behind this bullshit meta you are so willing to accept? Now look at his defenses. Not sure in what world he is living, but nope. Simply nope. His entire acitivity was on a handful players. If we do not udge acitvity by post count (Onegu would also do really well in that category) but how much of the game the person covered, than HF is in deep shit territory. Next post. Oh, wasn't he just a second ago so certain how great his play was? Suddenly he is getting tunneled on players who scumread him. Sounds like absolutely great mafia play. And yes, I completely agree that sometimes giving each other breathing room is a great idea. But when someone tells you to stop this tone, then going in, escalating it further and then using this as a bargain chip to get your breathing room? Nope! And seemingly this is completely okay for everyone. Okay, not much time has passed. But somehow I feel people are again gonna accept this. He did the same D1 and everybody was fine with it. Today I won't. If this is really all he has to bring, he should die. Like until now I tried to pay respect to what people told me about the meta on TL and in forum mafia in general. But this case I really can not do that, because it reminds me of last game. You were in there. I called out Foreman for exactly the same shit on D1. That he was scum in this case can be called noobs luck on my part. But anyway. I felt my case was reasonable. But then everybody jumped me. "But Mahrgell, him not answering your questions and giving you a finger, this could be part of his character and meta. This is really nothing." And Foreman grinned happily and didn't answer "But Mahrgell, him not caring about large parts of the game and publicly celebrating this arrogant and ignorant attitude, this could be really part of his meta, dont blame him for that" and again Foreman grinned happily and continued. Foreman then went MIA though, so the problem resolved itself. Like I had seen a comparison with Foreman earlier this game. Not sure who it was (CM8?). But really. If there is any Foreman equivalent in this game, it is HF. And people are completely willing to let this happen and it fucking annoys me. He loses nothing as town if he drops this ans finally starts answering and caring. But it makes his scum play pretty damn easy when everyone lets it go. And then I see people telling me "but keep HF alive for the first couple of days, lynch him later, he is a great contributor" Seriously, I was doing this with Koshi. But I have no fucking reason to do that with HF. I simply don't see great contributions. What has he actually done this game? Like if you compare the contributions of yourself(Rels), DF, Koshi, Emp to him... Is HF really the guy who can be called a leading contributor? My answer is no. TLDR: ##vote Holyflare To marghell: To answer your interrogation: what I was talking about when I said "he's not hiding behind it" was not the excuses you quoted, but the fact that he called other people scum while doing his "tunnels". In partcular, as I mentionned before, his LS read came out of the blue and I thought it was pretty townie. I'm not 100% convinced he's town but I kinda think he is. I agree that he is underwhelming BUT check any of his scumgames and you'll see that it's not a criteria to decide whether or not HF is scum; he has been considered one of the best scum on this forum for some time for his ability to lead the thread where he wants. Now I'm not saying him playing lazily proves he's not scum, but what I'm saying is him being unmotivated or lazy is very likely due to his outside-the-game mental state and not something he's doing to hide his scuminess, 'cause he's perfectly capable to be super townie as scum. Hm... thanks. I will keep this in mind and see where you are coming from. | ||
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On December 03 2016 10:54 Rels wrote: I find this TMI convincing actually, it might be a scumslip if it's confirmed that we're setup 3. SL really used the word "jailkeeped" for no reason You are clearly bad and don't know what tmi means. *HFface* | ||
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On December 03 2016 19:38 Tictock wrote: Here is the world where Shape/CM8/SL/Onegu are all town. ![[image loading]](https://media4.giphy.com/media/3o85xzEtQs693ln3qM/giphy.gif) You think you are an evil dragon? | ||
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I quickly skimmed over SL, thought my list I did in the night was actually reasonably okay, but my judgement somehow dropped again on him. This list is actually quite damn bad for SL. Bad enough to put him above anyone else. so... ##vote sicklucker About Shlog: Uh... I read his defense now (finally...) looked at the HF questions... and stay puzzled. Honestly I think HFs list is trash. This is not because I believe shlog is somehow magically townconfirmed. To me shlog is coinflip, maybe slightly biased towards scum. But this whole list of "weird stuff" looks more like confirmation bias than anything else. There are a lot of things off with shlog. But this is just completely overblown. If you are not interested in leaving a player wiggle room... Just let it be. If you are asking a player for explanations, give him room to breathe. If anyone really believes in this list of 30 obvious scumslips/contradictions from shlog, I have to question your critical and openminded thinking. And somehow I understand now where shlogs initial post was coming from, where he talked about peoples motivation when reading his defense. It is almost amusing, that exactly what he described there happened later. About HF: honestly, absolutely no motivation to read him. He won't die anyway today, so I'm not doing it. Overall: If you ask me for scumpairs, I would right now lean towards SL-shlog, SL-HF, one of the three + CM8/Onegu. Imho TT is not fully cleared yet, so he is part of my more serious tinfoil variations but we are not there yet. Oh and of course the Emp+DF/Rels evil team of doom possibility should be explored. Of those mentioned. If shlog flips red, I think there is no way HF can be scum though. I also have troubles imagining stuff like SL+TT right now. | ||
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As I said, I believe shlog is a slightly scumleaning coinflip. I see a way higher probability (even though less than what I had in mind esterday in my first run through) for SL to flip red than SL. So I would prefer to go SL->shlog->HF right now. But well... I simply lack motivation to fight for that right now. If you guys want shlog first. so be it. I can accept it in a way now with shlog not returning, as having him around as a wildcrd later is potentially more dangerous than having SL, who at least gives some material. But this is a general issue I have right now. Basically my mind what to hunts after those players who have material, those who give me reasons to believe they are scum. But at the other hand going into lategame with all those contentless afk's is god damn scary. | ||
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On December 03 2016 20:56 Rels wrote: Another thing on SL is that he had ZERO town spree, like he usually does in 100% of his town games. When he finds that one stupid (or sometimes crazily good) thing and tunnel on it for posts and posts. Thinking on voting SL over Shape. We'll see what Shape does when he goes back. What do you mean by that? Like SLs meta is still a riddle to me, and the one game linked earlier was absolutely nothing like him in this game. But this game he one post tunneled NU into afk vote and then tunneled DF(I can follow those arguments, just don't agree with them). | ||
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On December 04 2016 00:42 Holyflare wrote: Not voting (4): Onegu, emperorchampion, Shapelog, Checkm8 Please vote random people. Also, mar why have you voted everyone but shape today when he's done nothing? If shape returns right at deadline I'm not going to believe a word of his btw. That would be way too opportune. Not in the mood for doing long answers, so you will have to do with a short one: But as I recall it from mind: - didnt want to post in the evening after the EoN. Skimmed through thread, got mad at total inactivity and sitting-through-shlog-lynch-day mentality. Also dropped the wot on you. If I would give scumprobabilities, I would have given you probably around 60%, same about shlog. I think I detailed in my wot on you, why I gave you the vote over shlog. Basically I voiced my concerns regarding you often, you refused to even try to remove those, so I can not give you any benefit of doubt. Differently shlog had promised to contribute, and I really hoped this would allow for proper judgement. I also indeed hoped this would spark some more actitivity. SL posted while I wrote my stuff, but I was too tired to read through it and decided to deal with that later. At this point SL was probably about 40% scum for me. - chimed in in the morning, I read SLs stuff. It felt absolutely terrible. At this point, he was like 90% scum to me. Or closer to 95% Easy vote. - came back later, wanted to answer DFs questions... I actually did some posts, then wanted to do the full post analysis. But when rereading SLs filter, I actually suddenly felt way less secure than before. Like in my mind he was way more terrible than what I read now. There were still a number of flaws, but I felt like I was too emotionally charged (not only regarding SL) to properly play with a calm head. So I unvoted. - came back again this morning... Honestly I lost most motivation to play, still went over it. While I felt I went overboard with my "badness assumption" on SL in the first post, the second post was almost too gentle. Especially the later points were very bad. Also I read shlogs defense, realizing that shlogs reads may never come. Shlogs defense had some appeal to me. Not in the sense of convincing me, but in the way he approached it. As you noticed my preference for a certain playstyle you make figure out why. Still... in the end, this was mostly WIFOM. Basically I can see a clear path how honest RL-troubled town-shlog would come to where he is right now. And I can see good pathes how scumshlog would come to the same situation. Basically his defense changed almost nothing for me with regards to my opinion on his day1. But this is also why I usually insist on content and reads instead of defense, unless I want to know motivations where I have troubles finding them. So Shlog remains in this same spot, SL looks worse to me, SL is voted. - I just skimmed what happened since then... I honestly don't see a reason to change any of the points/opinions I made. It feels like finally more people are willing to reconsider SL though. Hell, even you did a 180. Only yesterday you were still yelling at me because I called out shlog and you called me and my reasoning shit. Welcome to the other side. ---- Also I may want to explain something, that is generally conflicting in my mind. Especially as this is an issue never arising in RL mafia. The idea of lynching afk or near-afk players. I really hate lynching people for lack of activity. Basically I would lynch them when I run out of active players I want to lynch. This at least was my original mindset. But here is where the conflict arises, and I'm sure there is a meta consensus on the topic, but I'm simply not aware of it. I figured, that having those empty sheets in lategame is even worse than doing "contentless" lynches in early game. I so far had only looked at it from the "now perspective". In this you want to lynch people because you have reason to distrust them. I simply never looked further. Sadly I still haven't completely got my head around it how it plays out and I simply have no grasp yet how the correct play is. If everyone is telling me that killing an suspected afk is better than killing a more suspected active player... I will have to accept this, until I have come to my own final conclusion. | ||
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to lazy to search for it, so again you will have to deal with me writing from my mind and I apologize in advance that the text again is way too long... But I simply lack the ability to order my thoughts as I write right now, so I just write it off as it comes to mind. It was about why I think your list of "questions" regarding SL is not leading anywhere (lets try to improve on tone here...) This answer again will give you a look into my approach to the game. I think it is by now crystalclear that we will not agree on this topic. But honestly I think there is place for both in the game. And I think the last Newbiegame was a good example for that. (but everyone wanted to kill me first, because I decided to play differently...) I already touched this in my previous post, and so did I in the original post you reponded to: Basically all the stuff Shlog wrote D2 are insanely subjective. I can easily take everything at face value and believe it. And I can easily see him doing this completely out of thin air and then spin some idea in my mind how evil shlog is sitting behind his computer and fools us all (except that he gets lynched, it seems... masterplan failed^^) The point with your list though is, that you decided to completely tunnel down on the second interpretation. There is no room left. Why I think this is not leading anywhere and suboptimal is for multiple reasons: Finding scum interpretations for peoples actions is usually really easy. Some people love claiming "I would never do that as scum", but basically this ends to be almost always as WIFOM. So you locking in into on out of many possible scum!shlog interpretations feels simply bad. If you believe it and you are town, than I have to tell you that you should leave your tunnel and open your mind more. If you don't believe it and just want to pressure, it is still bad, but I get to that in a moment. And well... if you are scum, I now could make up an interpretation on how this makes sense... But then we are back to the beginning of this argument. Secondly, if you decide to go with this overload attack... This makes only sense if you are completely locked on killing the target. You can not really expect anyone to properly answer this. It is simply not possible. You made up an interpretation, which may or may not be correct (and it not being correct does not make shlog town btw, he can still be scum but doing things for completely different reasons) and now you want him to do what? There is absolutely no point in argueing with people about their scum motivations. They can answer anything, the correct answer could be anything. What makes sense is talking about their town motivations. Town doesnt have the same luxury as scum here. If a townie honestly answers on his motivations and why he did what he did and why he thinks he is helping town... This can be judged. And you may accept it or not. TT is such a case... He had a lot of strange actions. If I wanted, I could now do a huge case on him, using the style you used, lock an interpretation on how all his play makes sense as Scum.TT. But from all his answers he has given, I can also make a case on him being town. This is why he ends up as Neut. There is a small lean, which wobbles back and fourth in the TT case, as my personal judgement on which is more likely comes in though. In contrast we have to look at SL: I really have huge issues with ever finding a logical town explanation for his play. I originally said that it feels like he is shitting up intentionally. I had troubles finding concrete examples, but when reading him I was not the only one who voiced this feeling. Now the issue why I had him on Neut before D2 was that while I had real troubles finding a town interpretation for his actions, the same was true for finding a scum interpretation which is not completely outlandish... But well... this feeling that he intentionally shits up the thread... It really doesnt even fit in any town interpretation. So all thats left is this, even though rather difficult for me to understand, scum interpretation of his actions. (which btw really confuses me, as just again the argument was brought "but yeah, this is too obv to be scum" I agree on it... problem is just it does not fit at all to town... It is not like certain weird reads or tunnels or mislynches or timing patterns or setup misreads...) | ||
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On December 04 2016 05:07 Rels wrote: mahrgell I understand the dilemna you're bringing up. The answer to this is just lynching the scummiest dude. Now activity can be a alignment indicator, but it should be just that - between a inactive scumlean and a super active scumread we should lynch the scumread. then SL it is... | ||
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On December 04 2016 05:15 Holyflare wrote: Also just to correct you, this didn't happen. I have maintained Shapelog is mafia since the first time I've mentioned him and haven't changed it. I have also had sl as my second top mafia if shape isn't mafia. I can dislike your points because they don't make someone mafia but I can independently think the same person is mafia possibly. I mean you complain and whine at me all game but here we are again where you're saying what I've already said but after me I will just let you believe that if it makes you feel better. | ||
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But people asked for stuff and with me not in shape to give a structured answer this is all I can give them | ||
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On December 04 2016 05:44 Holyflare wrote: I stopped reading when you said "maybe you wrote it to pressure shaoelog but then it's still bad" I did the same thing to darthfoley about 4 times and he responded excellently and is now a strong town read. What about my questions were hard to answer at all? I'm not in the mood to argue about that. Can we agree we disagree? I could now write another wot twice that size, but this leads us nowhere. I have honestly not the feeling you are at all interested in understanding me but you just want to win an argument. Fine, call yourself the winner. If your great victory is only there to serve your feeling of superiority, so be it. Doesn't mean I will now suddenly start to accept your self proclaimed leadership though. If you conclude from this, that I obv must be scum, okay. If all your arguments are based on this, I even promise I have no intention at all to defend against it. | ||
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On December 04 2016 05:51 darthfoley wrote: Yea tbh mahrgell I feel like you need to find a way to be more concise in your post. I understand you have much to say but I can't imagine that you would have this much to say when barely anything new is happening. This is kind of a minor point though because more activity is better than less. I understand when casing people that you need to write a lot, but much of your writing and WoT today revolves around HF who isn't even top 2/3 right not for lynches. It's just hard for me to motivate myself to read all of it when it's not even relevant to the lynch Those posts were entirely for HFs questions. I dont think anybody else needs to read them. As I said, I'm not in the mood/shape to write more structured right now. The moment I will write game relevant stuff again, I will try to do better. Those posts imho weren't. All they were aiming for was to somehow settle with HF. This failed. So be it. | ||
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On December 04 2016 05:55 Holyflare wrote: I don't think you're mafia at all and perhaps that's where the problem lies. You are the one thinking THAT I am mafia and all this time I'm flinging things in your face explaining myself, my actions and everything and you're treating it like some inane thing and never re-evaluating. It's incredibly frustrating when everyone else in the game sees it. You criticise me as being tunneled but here we are with no reconsideration. a) no, I dont think you are lockscum. And I never said this. You are not even my most likely scum. Because then you would get my vote. b) you wrote all kinds of stuff, but you never adressed really the issue I have with you. And with that I have no reason to give you more town status. Why have you such troubles accepting this? Obviously nobody shares my mindset. Are you only happy if everyone lies in front of you and wishes to kiss your feet? If you believe my arguments to be completely bullshit, so be it. As long as everyone else thinks so too you are completely fine here and can put me away as crazy. Make the best out of it. Like take it as scumbait "There is this crazy dude, who always wants to go after me. This certainly makes no sense, but he is nuts. But the moment someone joins him... THAT guy must be scum!" And really, I do not think anyone but you at this point is interested in this conversation. If there is anything shitting up the thread, it is us 2. So this will be my last post in the regard. | ||
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On December 04 2016 06:01 Rels wrote: I have the opposite conclusion on that. Scum don't put their partners top town for no reason Honestly I think this is pretty WIFOM. Like everybody knows, that scum does not, so scum does, and reverse. I think there are other good arguments to believe DF to be town though. Even though the DF train of thought from SL is something I can follow, I just dont agree. | ||
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Imho he did. But the game ended D2 with Skynx rolling over and not defending to a N1 case and his teammate getting modkilled for being afk. | ||
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![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/l0Hlvwab19vuth4Sk/giphy.gif) | ||
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I guess it is time for filter dives... after sleeping. | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:17 sicklucker wrote: Alright from now on im playing solo I thought there are 2 scum | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:27 sicklucker wrote: Why the fuck would I backtrack as mafia onto a town that was obv getting modkilled... wut Why the hell would you do that as town? | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:30 sicklucker wrote: why would I backtrack at all. Did you not see how i looked into nm;s filter and saw he may have spewed you town. Im fucking mafia if shapelog flips town or mafia. im fucking mafia if my reads stay the same or change Like screw this im jailkeeper mafia kill me town does not deserve to win The point was, that it does not make any sense at all to ever do this, as town or as mafia. Which leads to the conclusion you were just shitting up instead of "seriously trying to change the vote". And well... You may wanna tell us who you JK'ed then N1. Because this would be a locktown... | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:35 Holyflare wrote: Hw jkd me obviously. Hey it's me your lockk twon Yeah, I already noticed you two have something for each other | ||
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This should not change the lynch, but we really need to find the second one. And we need Onegu to come back... having him as wildcard is kinda scary... | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:37 Holyflare wrote: Eithwr way I don't know how it makes me confirmed town since kp is carried I definitely wouldn't carry it. Also the fact that regardless of if SL is jk or not I think that claim makes him town. Ah... yes. I somehow got this wrong... | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:41 Holyflare wrote: "this should not change the lynch"???? We have 0 mafia targets right now. Uhm.. I think this depends on if we buy the JK claim or not... | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:44 Holyflare wrote: No it doesn't, it makes him definite town. Walk me through, master. You are saying that when you are ultimatively fucked... Everyone wants to lynch you. And you play a setup against one Blue... It does not make sense to claim JK? And hope for a counter claim? | ||
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I guess I reread him again... What a pain. | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:49 darthfoley wrote: Also willing to believe his JK claim because he did TMI slip sort of earlier on and Rels did catch it. Can you point out the Rels post about it? I'm really not sure on the order here, but I noticed it when I did my second list on him. Rels may have posted it before me though. | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:52 darthfoley wrote: Why on earth are you deciding to re-read someone who claimed blue early N2? Even if he is faking, the real JK is still in the game so you "filter diving" is pointless and a huge waste of your time and my attention span. It almost seems to me like you're trying to do something without doing anything. I'll be damned! Uhm, I already said I would filter dive everyone... But no, I'm not buying his JK claim yet. But the JK tmi thing actually made me rethink it. | ||
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This is a direct response to my post... | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:54 Holyflare wrote: He's kind of right that the way he played yesterday doesn't make sense for mafia because ultimately he wanted to give a town Shapelog a chance to talk more (which I've seen town sl do a lot) and then he wanted to divert to a town modkill afk guy eventually. Doesn't make much sense for mafia. Also, claiming jk in the night is super towny because it almost guarantees his death. The ultimate town sacrifice. Also a 1 for 1 trade with a town jail keeper is by far the most suboptimal play I would have seen in a long time. It's incredibly town favoured. Then the tmi stuff. I actually can see where you are coming from. It indeed is weird to fakeclaim JK at start of night... | ||
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On December 04 2016 08:00 darthfoley wrote: So why the fuck would you start by filter diving a blue claim? That doesn't help town at all. The last 15 minutes have made me really start to wonder about mahrjesus's motives Because I'm not sure I believe it? HFs argument though is very convincing but didnt cross my mind at that point? | ||
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On December 04 2016 08:02 mahrgell wrote: Because I'm not sure I believe it? HFs argument though is very convincing but didnt cross my mind at that point ebwop | ||
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On December 04 2016 08:38 darthfoley wrote: only reason he would fakeclaim is to try to get a dumb JK to CC before night is over in hopes of killing the person. That has like a 2% chance of working. Do you really think he was that desperate to make a play? I mean maybe nothing was going to change in the next day phase, but who knows. Feels like it would've made more sense to fake claim tomorrow any way you slice it. I have to admit, I really agree on this 100%. Like I tried my absolute best to think of a way this claim makes sense as scum. I couldn't find one... Now this brings me in a difficult spot argueing with myself, as before I found no way at all how his play makes sense as town... But I feel like I have to accept that I simply won't understand it. With that in mind so, it means there are 2 scum amongst the rest... And this really turns the entire game around. Like I could see SL+1 as scum before, and even there I was basically relying on scum to be between HF, afkOnegu and TT. But 2? This completely destroys my current view of the game... I will sleep over that, and at this point I really have no clue how to start after sleeping... | ||
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On December 04 2016 08:53 Rels wrote: haha I love this claim. Should make the game a lot easier (= If SL is town (super likely, why would he fakeclaim at that point of the game), that's a super scummy dude out of the PoE If SL is scum, he's gonna be CC at some point; and at the very worst we have a 1v1 trade I really cant follow you here??? super scummy dude? Before we went into this night there was like this broad consensus of 2 scum being between shlog, sl, onegu, cm8. Then there were certain personal favorites who were suspected by single players but I dont think there was much agreement on those. Now if we assume SL town, and considering both flips... this leaves Onegu? Not sure if this is what you are trying to say, but I really cant follow you here. And even if it is Onegu, then I still dont see how it will be easy to find the second one... | ||
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On December 04 2016 09:12 Rels wrote: I'm saying SL was my biggest scumread after Shape today and if he's confirmed town without needing to lynch him that would be great But you realize, that your PoE breaks down due to lack of candidates? Finding 2 scum out of 4 is not entirely easy. 2 out of 3 or 2 out of 2 is obv better. But when you are at 2 out of 1, you should come to the conclusion that this is certainly not easy anymore and that you are on the completely wrong train. | ||
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On December 04 2016 10:02 emperorchampion wrote: Claim makes sense I suppose, but you didn't need to sl bb, I wouldn't have let the lynch you Hnnn? Why? Is there something I missed? Or did you suspect him to be blue all the time? | ||
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Like I have a billion tinfoils in my head right now, but I'm not even sure those should be discussed before the EoN. Also I really understand now, why people have trouble with white sheets like Onegu in the later stages of the game... Anyway, if anyone has some chat topic, I will be around. | ||
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On December 05 2016 02:16 darthfoley wrote: I mean if you have stuff to say you should probably say it now in case you die tonight mahrgell I will. Not now. But before EoN. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.makeagif.com/media/7-01-2014/rJWHCe.gif) | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + If SL dies and flips JK, nobody needs to read all of this. Save your time. Really. Trust me! + Show Spoiler + IF YOU ARE JK/DOC (and not SL), READ THIS BEFORE COUNTERCLAIMING. At least the beginning. + Show Spoiler + Almost there, but one last warning, this is a long wall of text, in best Mahrgell style. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/1VUZhfxLXDcXK/giphy.gif) I tried to hit enter from time to time though. Oh, and there is a reward at the end. But don't cheat by scrolling without reading. + Show Spoiler + I don't believe SL is the JK. But I also don't believe he is scum. If I die, do NOT lynch him at day. At this point I'm indeed inclined to believe that he is VT trying to take the bullet before he he would get lynched wasting a full day with everyone consenting like it happened D2. Unless he plays the total confusion card as scum, lol ^.^ But why wouldn't he get shot at night by scum, if he was not one of them? 3 cases: a) There is no JK in the game. If SL is town, he had to guess in which setup we are. For some reason ppl messed up before him on JK tmi, so it made sense to follow that for him. But scum knows the setup, so they know this is fake if we are playing #1. There is no point in shooting SL, who they may get rid off with the day lynch and who may draw a CC. (Look at who is pushing for CCs...) So they can just bluehunt at night, waste the daylynch with SL, and this game looks very grim for town. (Oh, and SL would have a good chance at being docprotected anyway) b) There is a JK in the setup, scum believes it to be SL. They still may go for the risky WIFOM play, trying to get him lynched. And just shoot whoever they want at night. - This is the least likely case. c) There is a JK in the setup, but scum does not believe it to be SL. There is a good chance of the real JK protecting SL, who may again get lynched if someone else drops at night. And again, they want to bluehunt obviosly. Also they want to get a CC at day here. (Again look at who is pushing for Ccs...) The consequence of cases a) and c) is: if you are the real JK/Doc: DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM. JUST FUCKING DONT! ---- Leaves the question, who is scum, if all this is the case? For very personal issues I would love to case HF here, but the sad truth is: No, he is not scum. If you read the progression after EoD and the claim take a special look at two posts: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26212954 http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26212989 He calls SL town, not JK. Not sure this is an intentional crumb by a Town!HF. In any case, it actually reached me. When I reread the thread, it were those posts who even gave me this entire idea here so in a way he clearly planted this idea in my mind. He was also the first one to do so. Now this makes absolutely no sense for Scum!HF. Regardlessly if he believes the SL claim, there is nothing for him to gain by planting this idea in peoples heads. Especially if we talk the case where scum does not shoot him (and if you have read until here, we are at this case). In this case scum wants to get SL lynched at day. Giving others even the idea that he may do that as VT is clearly playing against that objective. And giving this idea away also drastically reduces the chance of getting a CC, if ppl figure all that out before. This "he may not be JK" was echoed later... But if HF was scum he would simply not start it but hope nobody gets the idea. He could have doe those posts after someone else figured it out. But he was the first here. (One tinfoil though... If SL is scum... then it absolutely makes sense for a Scumbuddy HF to do that. Like thinking about it I absolutely love this tinfoil... I just don't think this is the case here.) --- So who do I think is scum? If I would get a shot, it would be on TT. In his D1/N1 play there is absolutely nothing conclusive. Everything was completely viable as town or as scum. I disliked his tmi-accident early in D2. His excuse can be legit, so well... But it is just the vibes... D2 was kinda sleepy and there was not much action by anyone, but from gut feeling I always got that TT was actively promoting this sleepiness. This bad feeling also got reinforced after the SL claim: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=1889&topic_id=515094 This was not a heat of the moment post. Also he does not call SL scum. He calls him not-JK. Now why on earth would a townie do that? He suspects him to be VT? Then you do not fucking call that out in this clear way at middle of the night. Scum won't suddenly start shooting themselves because they realize the guy is not JK. One has to die. And if it is VT-SL, hell yeah, get him NKed. Now you may ask what is the difference between HF and TT... Imho it lies in the subtleness. HFs posts were formed so much weaker than this, more adressing on a subconcious level, and I'm not even sure he intended to crumb that idea or just slipped it. But TT openly and intentionally promoted that idea after thinking about it. This is imho a big difference. Now I'm also aware that this goes against the scum strategy of drawing a CC, if they realized SL was fake. But I can't describe it, it looks wrong here. Like as he was distancing himself already from a mislynch on SL. (Compare it to HF again. Imho there is a huge difference. Distancing fails when nobody notices you moved away...) Similarly I can not understand his train of thoughts with the shades he threw N2. Yes of course, everyone has to be doubted at this point... If you don't do that, you are probably scum or not paying attention, or you really think you solved the game. But his shade throws feel so... weird. Shading Onegu, yeah.. makes sense, but is also a viable scumstrat to shade the afk. (and all his scumreads had been the afk so far) And then me and Emp? For what? For not adding a 6th and 7th vote to the shlog train to be "not associated?" WTF? Is this really all you got? Like I'm pretty sure I can be suspected... But thats the trigger point? And with Emp I do not understand it at all. If you want to throw all the reasons why Emp is townread by most out of the window just for this? Emp had some post N3 which gave me a slight doubt. But offvoting is certainly not one of them. Again it just feels like TT is not actively playing, but just posting stuff that seems like content and which are seemingly his thoughts, but he never actually had those thoughts, because he would have noticed how off they are. He made another read summary later, which changed some stuff and looking at it isolated it again makes sense for a townie to think that way. But I don't like the way there. Oh, and im a sucker for such posts, it gave me bad vibes when it was posted... Given the flips and SL situation those vibes are like really really bad... + Show Spoiler + On December 03 2016 19:38 Tictock wrote: Here is the world where Shape/CM8/SL/Onegu are all town. Now I think nothing individually is 100% conclusive here. But it is just a large collection of really bad vibes since the start of D2 and the lack of any strong reason to make me believe he is town. Just too much has to come together to make him town at this point. --- Gimme another bullet and I would shoot Rels: My townread on him was mostly based on this one post he made earlier and some other stuff like his rather "weird" reads during N1, which I would expect from a scum!SL but not from a scum!Rels from all I know about his play from our last game. (Yeah... shitty wifom... reads make no sense ->must be town, but true often enough ^^) But I simply can't understand his "this makes PoE easier" posts... Seriously... No. This makes me doubt he ever seriously tried to do this and makes it more look like some front. If he had tried it, he would have noticed that those results completely trash his entire PoE-approach. And this post also stood out for me: On December 04 2016 09:10 Rels wrote: SL / Shape / C8 being my top choices for scum, I would need to re assess completely. I'm gonna wait until tomorrow to see if there is a CC or not. This looks so much like drawing a CC, which again I can not understand. If you can figure it out without CC, you sure as hell wanna do that. Saying "I stop playing until there is a CC" is either the ultimatively lazy town approach, hoping that the game gets solved for you by others and everything is at is seems... Well.. Or it is scum not being sure if SL is the real JK (or knowing there is no JK in the game) and trying to bluehunt. Overall this feeling on Rels is weaker than with TT. But give me a 2nd bullet and I would shoot Rels with a good conscience. --- If I had to shoot more... I guess I would continue with Onegu, just for afk's sake and there is really nothing to judge him from. If there is still scum left.... Uh.. Put on the tinfoil! I admit I haven't explicitly reread everyone so take this final sorted list with a grain of salt outside of those explicitly mentioned. <<<SCUM>>> TT Rels Onegu DF Emp LS SL HF <<<TOWN>>> --- You made it! You made it to the end. Thanks for reading. Here is your reward: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://media.giphy.com/media/11qA23s14znYMU/giphy.gif) GL GUYS! | ||
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On December 05 2016 07:06 Tictock wrote: Can I make a suggestion? Can we actually not discuss any claims today? I'd really like that. But what if I want to lynch one of the people who claimed? And I really want to do that right now... If I'm not allowed to talk about it, I have to lynch you and it has to wait for the next day.... | ||
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Make up your mind if we are discussing claims or not. | ||
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On December 05 2016 07:11 emperorchampion wrote: Discuss whatever you want. Don't hide behind walls of text though please. Okay, then I'm more inclined to believe Rels=Scum than Rels=JK. What is this claim? Why do that at EoN???? The only difference between doing that and doing it after EoN is that he was able to tell us his ultra valuable blocks in case he dies. Why on earth would he ever expect to die here? Like WHY? It ain't gonna happen. There was nothing at him pointing to be JK... Scum either shoots SL, because they believe him, or they go hunting... And then I think LS and me were the candidates... (I actually was fairly sure LS was blue... looks like I wasn't alone...) And if you really expect to die... Do you really only post those highly valuable targets??? He didn't post anything but that. I just looked at his filter again... He didn't give any proper reads that night... All he wanted to leave us are his targets? | ||
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On December 05 2016 07:11 Rels wrote: That might be a good idea actually. If we ever kill the other scum the game is over If you are JK and not Scum, you are dead next night. | ||
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On December 05 2016 07:21 emperorchampion wrote: This is why we focus on finding the partner. Maf has to kill the jailor at some point since they're super strong (and get stronger as there are less players) with no RB. Whichever one dies, we just lynch the other one. I'm willing to follow that idea... Lynching Rels may horribly backfire if it goes wrong... | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + If I would get a shot, it would be on TT. In his D1/N1 play there is absolutely nothing conclusive. Everything was completely viable as town or as scum. I disliked his tmi-accident early in D2. His excuse can be legit, so well... But it is just the vibes... D2 was kinda sleepy and there was not much action by anyone, but from gut feeling I always got that TT was actively promoting this sleepiness. This bad feeling also got reinforced after the SL claim: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=1889&topic_id=515094 This was not a heat of the moment post. Also he does not call SL scum. He calls him not-JK. Now why on earth would a townie do that? He suspects him to be VT? Then you do not fucking call that out in this clear way at middle of the night. Scum won't suddenly start shooting themselves because they realize the guy is not JK. One has to die. And if it is VT-SL, hell yeah, get him NKed. Now you may ask what is the difference between HF and TT... Imho it lies in the subtleness. HFs posts were formed so much weaker than this, more adressing on a subconcious level, and I'm not even sure he intended to crumb that idea or just slipped it. But TT openly and intentionally promoted that idea after thinking about it. This is imho a big difference. Now I'm also aware that this goes against the scum strategy of drawing a CC, if they realized SL was fake. But I can't describe it, it looks wrong here. Like as he was distancing himself already from a mislynch on SL. (Compare it to HF again. Imho there is a huge difference. Distancing fails when nobody notices you moved away...) Similarly I can not understand his train of thoughts with the shades he threw N2. Yes of course, everyone has to be doubted at this point... If you don't do that, you are probably scum or not paying attention, or you really think you solved the game. But his shade throws feel so... weird. Shading Onegu, yeah.. makes sense, but is also a viable scumstrat to shade the afk. (and all his scumreads had been the afk so far) And then me and Emp? For what? For not adding a 6th and 7th vote to the shlog train to be "not associated?" WTF? Is this really all you got? Like I'm pretty sure I can be suspected... But thats the trigger point? And with Emp I do not understand it at all. If you want to throw all the reasons why Emp is townread by most out of the window just for this? Emp had some post N3 which gave me a slight doubt. But offvoting is certainly not one of them. Again it just feels like TT is not actively playing, but just posting stuff that seems like content and which are seemingly his thoughts, but he never actually had those thoughts, because he would have noticed how off they are. He made another read summary later, which changed some stuff and looking at it isolated it again makes sense for a townie to think that way. But I don't like the way there. Oh, and im a sucker for such posts, it gave me bad vibes when it was posted... Given the flips and SL situation those vibes are like really really bad... + Show Spoiler + On December 03 2016 19:38 Tictock wrote: Here is the world where Shape/CM8/SL/Onegu are all town. Now I think nothing individually is 100% conclusive here. But it is just a large collection of really bad vibes since the start of D2 and the lack of any strong reason to make me believe he is town. Just too much has to come together to make him town at this point. ##vote Tictock | ||
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Rels play doesn't make any sense to me if he is the JK (regardless of where the submission deadline is, which I believed to be at beginning of silence period too). SL's play is confusing me no less though. I can understand him not talking about the claims, if he is really VT fakeclaiming to take the bullet and unsure about Rels being the real deal. But I can not understand him not joining the scumhunt today. He has no reason to hold back now and contribute to the town... HF seems to be flailing right now, has now probably accused every possible pairing of being scum... Can you settle your mind and post some proper reasoning for your final idea? TT continues his "I only play with afk's, so lets wait for Onegu and ignore everyone else" line, while I have seen nothing from him that really makes me feel he is town at this point. My bad feeling about TT is that I'm not 100% sure how him being scum fits into the rest of the game, but judging him alone, he remains my topscum. The stuff HF had on Emp looked at least worth looking into. Judging just from recent content though, while I think it could indeed be scum agenda to stir the chaos that has befallen this discussion, his D3 play so far looked like him trying to solve the game though. Similar can be said about DF and combined with the his general play he is probably the most towny player for me. Oh, and Onegu is still the absolute wildcard. Like I'm really frustrated at this point. The only thing he has going for himself is what everyone considers an NU spew. Basically, if this is wrong, Onegu is scum, it makes perfect sense for him to play exactly the way he does, doing absolutely nothing but bringing excuses after excuses why he is again gone for the whole day. Point is, that with the number of suspects I feel like we almost have to rely on him being town... | ||
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If we assume Rels: Scum or JK SL: VT or Scum Then as long as there is no CC for Doc/JK... Rels has to be the JK here. So I'm inclined to follow the call for a CC, if there is any... I'm just not so sure how this automatically makes SL scum and I'm having kinda bad feelings about the amount of players pushing this idea here. If there is something concerning about SL, it is everything but his JK claim... | ||
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I said this earlier: - there is no point in claiming before EoN. You dying would have been the ultimate freak accident. You could have claimed after EoN - i you really thought you die, those blocks were not really telling much. They are not conclusive to anything. Somehow everyone seems to believe HF was blockworthy N1... Then if he is scum, he certainly won't carry there. The N2 block somehow rules out a SL/HF team, I guess... Not sure here. - if you thought you would die... why not drop reads? ANYTHING? Saying you had nothing to say is just... meh. - your continuation on how you could confirm guys all the rest of the game again reminds me of your N2. The idea collapses the moment you really try to go that way. If you are not scum, you are dead next night unless you block scum. So you get exactly ONE chance. Thats it. And no, this is not making the game easy. Seriously, there is exactly one reason to believe you right now. And this is the lack of CC. | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:20 Rels wrote: marhgell, the probability that SL fakeclaimed at night is like 0.01%; it's low to begin with, but here he posted after the night ended and didn't rescind his claim, which is the first thing he would have done as town. You are really making me hate you right now. If he is VT, fakeclaiming... Then for sure as hell he will not rescind his claim at day AFTER you claimed. VT fakeclaiming will rescind when there is no CC. But when there is a CC, he basically has to go with it... And somehow hope scum is confused with the number of options. This was basically my reasoning on why I was willing to drop the discussion... But well... yeah, by now even the last scum has probably figured this shit out. | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:25 Holyflare wrote: Who gives a shit anyway. Just go through emperor posts instead. I will do that at the evening... Originally just wanted to drop in, got stuck here longer than I actually wanted... In the meantime tell me why TT is town ^.^ | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:37 Holyflare wrote: I don't believe you're so hung up on SL's tmi yesterday and now you've completely forgotten about it and think he might be vt. Did that tmi just vanish? You could have read my EoN post. Then again why would you read anything I say, when your only answer will be "you are shit, you are wrong" without ever giving any proper reasoning... But to answer it again: It was you who circulated the idea of him being VT first. This was later echoed by DF (i think?) and TT. The entire idea did not cross my mind before it was brought up in the thread. In my book this originally was just the usual "desperate scum, trying to get a CC" play as I have seen it time and time again in RL mafia. So it was a reflex to throw it away. I never considered the implications of a night time claim and only did after you pointed it out. But now you are suddenly questioning me, because I for once believed you made sense? Good stuff! And with that... And it absolutely puzzles me how you suddenly 180° on that shit. So either you are claiming to have the memory of a gold fish (which kinda goes against your "im the god of this game" ego trip) or you actually pulling some really weird stunt here... Like I'm trying really hard to find any way how your play is currently makes sense... | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:45 Rels wrote: You're really tunneled mate. p: Let's try once again : - I'm gonna cc today no matter what - Since I'm gonna cc, the best thing is to do it JUST BEFORE the end of night, because: ==> there is no cons to do it that way, since scum can't react to the cc ==> there is a pro: if for some reason I die (and, I undersatnd if you don't pbelieve it seeing my play these last two games, but I'm night killed quite often: click "Profile" for proof), my targets are in the thread The huge con is, that if SL is VT and unclaims at day, you would not have to claim.... But as long as there is no CC to you, I simply have to believe you to be JK and see no point in continueing this argument. Doesn't make me think your play is correct, though but we can discuss this postgame. | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:47 Rels wrote: You're not thinking logically. You gotta read this: IF SICKLUCKER IS TOWN AND FAKECLAIMING TO DRAW A BULLET HE WILL RESCIND IF HE S COUNTERCLAIMED DURING THE DAY. Why would he not ? Why would he try to get me lynched when he KNOWS I'm the Jailkeeper ? Your reasonning doesn't make any sense When did he try to get you lynched??? Not seeing it. Actually the thread consensus was to leave you both alone. And in this atmosphere, if he believes you are both protown, he should keep his claim for maximum uncertainity on who is the real one. So again, who is not making sense here? | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:58 Holyflare wrote: Can mahr be mafia? I think it's emp but the amount of stubborn bs reads that margo has said is reaching new levels. Was missing that already. You can't feel happy without doing one of those every couple of hours. | ||
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- at start of N2, VT!SL fake claims JK, as it seems like he is railroad lynch anyway and we repeat a shlog D2 with no progress at all. I can indeed see him prepping this move with the TMI on D2. - in the thread 3 people clearly point out that he could very well be VT - the absolute silence with nobody daring to talk about the claim afterwards kinda reinforced this idea, imho - there were 2 people who actually initially doubted this claim and thought it was a scummove... LS and Me - LS is shot at night and somehow Rels thinks he has to CC.... - cheers in scumQT - now suddenly again everyone is jumping SL, making all scum dreams come true. Shot a guy, found JK, get another mislynch - there is one noob who massively goes against another railroad, but hey... lets just afk, discredit him, whatever... - SL is lynched, flips green - Rels dies at night, because he misses his save - we all happily lynch this fucking noob, cuz clearly TMI, must be scum - GG Like what really rings my bell here is, that nobody even sees the point of why it actually makes sense for VT!SL to play that way... Or well... more like: everyone refuses to see it. My point is not " SL must be VT". His complete lack of D3 play is actually disturbing me greatly, because I would expect him to now contribute. He doesn't have to play Chaos anymore, he did his job. But my point is that people are clearly willing to lynch him for shit arguments. And nobody is stepping up and noticing that those are shit, but everyone is letting it happen. And in the case of HF, we get this complete 180° from his night posts to his day posts. Also I would like to again remind you of TT! What has he done so far people refuse looking into him? There is 2 people on him. Onegu and me. I have posted my reasons. Still the guy repeats few times how he has to wait for Onegus case. And Onegu is completely missing... And HF tells us to never look at Onegu, because Emp and SL is all we have to look at... So yes, I really have this TT+HF scum idea here in my head. TT could easily carry the NK both nights, with him always being in the middle of the pack. Alternatively I still see TT+Onegu with Onegu basically just maximizing distance by "afkvoting" TT without any case and then jumping in later when he needs to or just staying afk. I havent reread Emp yet (should really do that...) so im not sure if he would fit in that too. And as there is seemingly no resistance at all to this railroad... Either scum stopped playing or they are really busy posting all kinds of celebratory gifs in their QT. | ||
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On December 04 2016 07:37 Holyflare wrote: Eithwr way I don't know how it makes me confirmed town since kp is carried I definitely wouldn't carry it. Also the fact that regardless of if SL is jk or not I think that claim makes him town. On December 04 2016 07:44 Holyflare wrote: No it doesn't, it makes him definite town. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy228/jade95_2010/Misc%20Animals/Aquatic/Goldfish7.gif) | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:25 Holyflare wrote: Who gives a shit anyway. Just go through emperor posts instead. Your response to my "Why not talk about TT" post. I'm getting tired of having to tell you all the stuff you posted... | ||
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On December 05 2016 20:36 Holyflare wrote: Because sl is mafia and emperor is mafia. Actually this was the post I was looking for... This was your answer to me asking about TT. Sorry about the last one. | ||
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So far all you ever blamed SL for was that he should not have survived (when half the thread including you propagated the idea that he may be town, but not JK) You never once mentioned his D3 behaviour. It was only me who did. | ||
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On December 06 2016 01:06 Holyflare wrote: I've got a good case out on emperor, excuse me while I don't want to acknowledge you when you ignore it. If you're mafia you're doing a good job of trying to annoy me. What more does this do other than nothing? You complain I don't put out content and don't read it when I do. Then whine about how I change my mind when I find new information and quite CLEARLY use it to insult me as a person instead of it having any game relevance. If you think I'm mafia push me and give reasons why because for 4+ days you've just thrown petty accusations my way. Either put your vote where your mouth is or don't mention me again because I sure as shit would kill ls over the person being petulant. What have I done today to annoy you this time? Try and solve the game? Every summary post you make is just a dig at me. I post fluidly what's on my mind in a second so, yes, it may be contradictory at times but that means nothing. Not sure what our past history has to do with this. And if you could read one bit, that while I do not understand your current play, I'm still on TT+X with you being one of the X. And I won't move off that. Also I had you as pretty much townlocked at night... Just that your currently doing the exact opposite of everything I would expect from that person I townlocked there. But let's ask me again why I suddenly dropped that townlock... | ||
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On December 06 2016 01:07 Rels wrote: The last sentence is also pretty untrue - at least hf and I had multiple posts about SL yesterday. Not finding those. Actually HF went from "Must be Emp+TT" suddenly into "Emp+SL" with only one post: On December 05 2016 20:56 Holyflare wrote: Only one to claim jk at night is sl. Sl isn't dead. Mafia can't alter kill in silent period. Everyone believed sl, no reason whatsoever for him to be alive. Sl literally said he tmid and rels caught him out. Mafia had no reason not to nk sl unless sl is mafia. But this isn't getting us anywhere right now. So I feel like letting HF rest for a while (also for both out tempers to cool down...) and maybe calmer minds can make up their opinion in the meantime. Then again, I would still prefer opinions on TT over anything else. And Emptime it is for me. ^.^ | ||
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On December 06 2016 01:33 Rels wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 03 2016 10:00 Rels wrote: On the the other hand these are all great observation. I started reading this post ready to be super critical about it but everything is fucking true - sicklucker's NU handling is fuckign weird in particular. Saying to him "you can die first", then saying to EC "yeah I can get behind a NU vote" (he's already said he's scumreading him ?) THEN calling EC maybe scum when EC main target was NU is super weird. Gonna quote it: On December 03 2016 10:02 Rels wrote: + SL knows he's often scumread on D1, as town or scum for that matter, I dunno if he would think "all the likley scum thinks I'm scum" as town. SL can you expand on this thought too please On December 03 2016 10:54 Rels wrote: I find this TMI convincing actually, it might be a scumslip if it's confirmed that we're setup 3. SL really used the word "jailkeeped" for no reason On December 03 2016 20:50 Rels wrote: This doesn't make sense. This is a forced read. This amkes me think very much of Skynx' ExO read last game, where scum!Skynx just decided to townread town!ExO (exo was super scummy and was lynched D1) for bad reasons that he couldn't properly explain. The cop stuff is NAI in my opinion. And if we admit it could be townie, it's not something that should go against everything else SHape has done. On December 03 2016 20:53 Rels wrote: Nope. The two scummy things were your "I could get behind a NU lynch" in reaction to EC making a post on NU, when you ALREADY scumread him; and you null/scumreading EC when he made the same points than you on NU but deeper. In addition I don't believe you think people scumreading you makes you town, you know a lot of people scumread you D1 as town. On December 03 2016 20:56 Rels wrote: Another thing on SL is that he had ZERO town spree, like he usually does in 100% of his town games. When he finds that one stupid (or sometimes crazily good) thing and tunnel on it for posts and posts. Thinking on voting SL over Shape. We'll see what Shape does when he goes back. On December 03 2016 22:56 Rels wrote: That sl omgus. Explain very clearly why shape would not claim cop at the start of the game as scum and how it makes him 100% town, you don't even need to read anything else On December 03 2016 23:41 Rels wrote: This doesn't make sense. You read is set in stone for an extremely weak reason and instead of seeing it hand adapting it you're defending it On December 04 2016 04:27 Rels wrote: "Opportunistic" is the easiest word to use when you wanna throw fake suspicion to someone. Your shape read STILL doesn't make sense. Have you even read his filter ? He's the goddamn lynch right now and you don't think he's scum - at least you think there are 4 people scummier than him. Why ? You just admited your "he wouldn't claim cop" BS doesn't hold, why is he townier than TT C8 DF and I ? And to add to that, I find very suspicious that you wouldn't fight against a lynch you don't believe in, especially since I know you can do exactly that as town. On December 04 2016 04:28 Rels wrote: Your shape read is exactly what Skynx did last game. You just decided he was town for this reason, but your read is not evolving, you're not re evaluating or using any other posts of it - hell you don't even show that you read his filter. ----------------------------- On December 02 2016 19:50 Holyflare wrote: Player list: 3. Shapelog 8. Checkm8 This is my real list: Town Emperor Darthfoley Town looking but wouldn't be surprised if they're mafia Ma gurl Ticktock (i have no idea how you're here when i want to lynch you normally every game. If you're mafia I'll have a good metric of lynching you when I think you're town to follow) LightningStrike (purely for pushing correct looking stuff but tinfoil) Null Rels (lots of reasons to town read him, lots of reasons to mafia read him) Onegu (hesitation because of hard town read on me day 1, not much content, also absent now) Sicklucker (dunno he just says words but town reads me and town reads shapelog??? Too weird) Mafia Shapelog (His cop thing looked really mafia forced, his return is crap, no reads, mire concerned with insulting my previous game than posting read, angry at weird times, looking at things the wrong way and in ways I've never seen a town person look) Checkb8 (?????) On December 02 2016 21:47 Holyflare wrote: We vote off Shapelog today, guaranteed. Sicklucker needs to explain his df and shape reads too On December 03 2016 20:20 Holyflare wrote: Yeh I'd definitely lynch sl if shape wasn't blatantly burnt out mafia giving up after his last defence. On December 03 2016 22:21 Holyflare wrote: Sl is uncharacteristically angry/annoyed this game On December 03 2016 23:08 Holyflare wrote: I do it every game and shape does not and has done it as mafia. Sooooooooooo. On December 03 2016 23:10 Holyflare wrote: Like the dude literally has 0 reads despite saying he's caught up and then just fucked off when he saw nobody reacted well. If he's town you're definitely dying dude. On December 04 2016 00:02 Holyflare wrote: This is so full of crap wtf? You just got told he does something as mafia and you're staying resolute that he's town when your only reason has gone? On December 04 2016 00:29 Holyflare wrote: Yes I just told you about it and your reply was that he's still town because of it you loon. I asked about D3 behavior. You call it BS, I ask for details, and you really send me 50 quotes with none being even posted on D3? Of course in everyones filter there are a billion posts calling SL out earlier. Like seriously? Like I feel I really should not defend SL here, because I can see him both alignments... But I wish people could read. | ||
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On December 06 2016 01:56 Rels wrote: Oh you're talking about today ? Why do you mean then by "mentionning SL D3 behaviour" ? He had only one post when you said that Of course I'm talking about today. And I clearly said so. And my entire point to even doubt my own story is the complete lack of D3-content from SL. If he is, what my version is propagating, then he should actually be free to talk D3 and contribute. He has not done that at all. And if there really is a reason to lynch SL, it is this complete lack of D3 behaviour. And I was the only one who said this, but the cases on SL were only based on his claim. Suddenly HF claims he changed his mind, because of exactly this lack of D3 posting (which should be there) But he simply never mentioned this when he suddenly flipped from TT+Emp to Emp+SL and only did so much much later. Also him even considering TT+Emp means, that he actually fully considered the Rels JK, SL VT option. | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:01 sicklucker wrote: I still think hf is a lock town but its laughable how wrong hes been about everything this game. which is probably a reason to think hes town ec Now you called Emp town, HF town, Rels JK. Unless you are posting seals, I guess you wanna call yourself town too... Who is scum? | ||
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Scum knew the setup from the start. The only 2 setups with identical scum characters are #2 and #3, but one has carried KP, the other does not. So they really knew before the game even started. (I pointed that out even before the game started, that I think this is maybe a bit scumleaning due to this advantage) | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:04 sicklucker wrote: ticktock one of you or onegu. pretty easy poe. probably you. maybe df too tho but less likely Can you post some... reasoning? For any of your reads? | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:06 Rels wrote: I thought you just said you made those slips to prepare your fakeclaim. Now you chose the setup after I called you out on the slips ? Thanks for asking, lol... I tried to reread that and couldn't figure out at all what he means... Then again... I have this feeling with SL posts since D1 ^.^ | ||
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Again: Do you have any reasoning for your reads? Why are Emp, HF town? Why is TT, me, Onegu scumcandidates? Like... did you read the game at all? | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:27 Rels wrote: So STOP DEFENDING YOURSELF. Go and take the 30 hours you have and find scum if you're really the unluckiest town ever. You're not getting out of today alive. This is a motion I can support... | ||
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Where? There were two setups mentioned... You are really not making sense here... | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:30 sicklucker wrote: what do you think I was donig your the one starting this shit. we could have even lynched outside the claims and kept wifmo cover and gave you an extra confirmed town I was fully in support of this... And I actually had a version in my mind where your play somehow made sense... And you decided to go with WTF... But really... stop it. Either you are the most confused person ever and nobody will udnerstand it... Or well... yeah... Drop reads, be useful. | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:31 sicklucker wrote: I just did a poe list from my town perspective before you rudely interpreted me. Me and ec were trying to figure out the game Then go ahead. I will shush | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:37 sicklucker wrote: well I kind of want you to talk since im not sure on you . fuck rels tho What you wanna talk about? weather? starcraft? If you have questions, I will answer... | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:39 sicklucker wrote: Darth completely mia is fucking weird since hes been really active. I dont see how ticktocks not fucking mafia this game since I had a tentative town read on onegu whos hard to read and not even playing so also a question mark. Your fucking saying alot of things and not making much sense and seem to know im not the real j/k. which is what mafia fucking knows since they didnt kill me How does mafia know you are not the real JK? They may have suspected it... But knowing? | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:40 emperorchampion wrote: mahrg is pretty town bruh, still trying to solve the game and act in a towny fashion. He's actually kept the activity up all throughout. Can we stop bringing activity as town indicament? Like I agree with you on me being town... but I don't like lazy reasoning. PS: why are you guys stopping me from finally filterdiving emp? ^^ | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:41 emperorchampion wrote: + he's a dota player OKAY, reason accepted. Emp TOWNLOCK! Guy makes good reads! | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:48 emperorchampion wrote: Look mafia hasn't done shit this game. They can't even get a single mislynch. We were generous by giving them our cop for free, our jailkeeper for free, and two free mislynches. AND they still might lose. The only way mafia will win is if town flounders around enough and can't get their shit together. Game has ended? Didn't notice it. Shouldn't actually exactly your mindset ring some bells? If this is really what is happening here... then wouldn't mafia finally do something? Or are they maybe not doing anything... Because town seems completely wrong? As mentioned earlier by IDK who... LS was either an attempted bluesnipe... or a blend kill. | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:49 sicklucker wrote: Lets come back to this in a couple of hours something came up You have enough time until lynch... How about some more detailed reading of the game before that? Like really: Either you post a seal or you finally put in some effort and give us a few proper goodbye reads that are not ust jumbled oneliners before you go... | ||
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On December 06 2016 02:57 emperorchampion wrote: Mafia can't do anything cause the only people with town cred are me, you, and now rels. What do you mean by blendkill? I believe the reason for killing LS was taking out a confirmed town. Not sure if you are reading the thread, but I don't have the feeling you are confirmed town for everyone here... Uhm... I havent seen anyone townlock me either, given the flak I'm getting here... And your reasoning on townlocking me so far has been "activity and tries to solve the game". And why was LS townconfirmed? Only because of the NU spew? Not sure he was really a toptown at that moment either... There was a lot of WIFOM to pull on him... | ||
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On December 06 2016 03:35 Tictock wrote: Also @ Gell What about my play makes you think I'm just waiting for Onegu to post? Did I just wait around D2 waiting for Shape as well? You acknowledge Onegus vote and wait for Onegu to case you twice... And simply ignore the stuff thats already out there. Why you ask him out? Why not come for me or respond there. Even Emp clearly had doubts here. Why not ask him why he distrusts you? Making it look like a lynch on you only depends on an afk is just... beh. And really not a first in this game... Like most your "interaction" this game has been with afks... Talking to people who can respond is more fruitful... On December 05 2016 07:43 Tictock wrote: Exactly it's all a pile of WIFOM that is best just left aside for now. I'm more interested in hearing why you think I'm scum now. On December 05 2016 13:11 Tictock wrote: Good to know my life is in Onegu's hands. Better be a good case if I'm gunna get hanged for it. | ||
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@night... Did you think SL was JK 100%? Or did you think he could be VT or scum? Like looking back, what percentage you would give each option there? | ||
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Tried rereading all his filter... I admit it is difficult to come to a full conclusion for me right now without reading all the surroundings again... Like when I look at HFs case on him and read it then yes... I can see this devious variant of Emp sitting there and fooling us all for most of the game. Especially knowing all the flips. Then again, those are the exactly same posts that made me townlock Emp so hard earlier... Like I can drop that townlock, but I certainly can not throw that interpretation out of the window, only because another one appeared... So I have to deal with both being a possibility from D1/N1. D2 he supported the lazytown... But I guess everyone did. N2 I somehow had some weird feeling with two posts: + Show Spoiler + On December 05 2016 01:06 emperorchampion wrote: Mmm more I just mean that I have a decent town read on sl at the moment. The bad post is the one starting the quote chain. The explanation just felt... Meh. Maybe it is me not properly understanding English here, but I really read the first one as "I wouldn't let them lynch you, if you wouldn't have claimed" which is kinda weird given the universal distrust for SL before. + Show Spoiler + On December 05 2016 01:04 emperorchampion wrote: You can talk about stuff now, it's fine. Few more hours of discussion for town. This one makes kinda townsense if he really didn't consider SL to be VT... At that point I felt like I was squeezed for info though.... D3... Besides his flipflop on HF which I can not 100% follow (at least not for the reasons he gave, doing my own flip in the meantime...) what I really dont udnerstand how he can state multiple times that the game is easy, pretty much solved, scum completely failed... And then not deliver a convincing solution. Like... TELL US! Given that I never shared the feeling of the game being trivial... it disturbs me. --- So yeah... I guess rereading him was worth it in the sense that it removed my townlock on him. (shush scum, I hear you cheering! soon everyone is doubted again ) But after all... imho he is still less likely to be scum than TT. So right now I would indeed go with TT who has given me way more bad vibes... (And those vibes are based on me reading him without someone elses case next to me, so I trust them more ) | ||
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Did NU sub in for you? | ||
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On December 06 2016 04:25 sicklucker wrote: I was going to unclaim 1 minute before deadline but I was late. fucking hilliarious rels probably got the idea from me in previous games. its bad in his spot tho. so very bad prevents the fucking cc. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EWWXVST.gif) Why would you unclaim before deadline??? WTF? Why not after???? | ||
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Do it right after the night post and you are fine... | ||
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On December 06 2016 04:27 Rels wrote: Cause it s so scummy it has to be town right. + I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about his reads all game. So careful, so logical. HF & Rels & marhgell & LS are all super town! Doesn't make sense for TT. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced. LS is really townconfirmed. Nothing can be argued about that. Sorry, had to interrupt... Go on :D:D:D | ||
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And where is DF? ... | ||
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On December 06 2016 04:31 Rels wrote: Nah, I mean his reads all game. He always went for this easiest reads possible, even when that didn't make sense. It's weird to me how TT could townread both HF and I town D1. Oh. I see. Then my "funny comment" failed pretty hard at being funny. Guess I'm just German... But yes... this is pretty much the same I feel with him. His focus is entirely on afk's and all active players get easy townreads without much to say.... | ||
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On December 06 2016 04:33 sicklucker wrote: i would claim asap before mafia can react to stop the real fucking j/j from doing somethnig stupid like counterclaiming me. oh wait... Yeah, wait... ... ... ... Still can't follow you. Unless the JK claims first second of the day you always beat him here, and this is only assuming you survive... | ||
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On December 06 2016 04:32 Rels wrote: Sadly both of them has shown that they are capable to just disappear as town )= I would never lynch them over EC / TT right now. But since I will confirm one tomorrow and the other will be lynched, the next day if the game isn't over you can bring them up. I'm just saying that I certainly not enjoy the idea of having Onegu and DF at a potential lylo... So I really hope this shit gets sorted before... | ||
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Went to bed feeling good. Woke up, read thread. Feeling great now. There is not even a reason to invite shenannies anymore... so... ##vote sicklucker PS: If there is any interesting discussion left for me, it is: If there is a scum between DF and Onegu, who is it? But this questions is kinda far away, I don't think it has to be asked, and if it is, I have a clear opinion on it. | ||
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Anything you wanna talk about? | ||
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On December 07 2016 05:11 emperorchampion wrote: tell me who is then bruh! NU is scum. I'm fairly confident on that one! | ||
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Do I get towncred for that one? Or lynched for TMI? | ||
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On December 07 2016 05:26 emperorchampion wrote: Based on the people in this game, lynched for tmi Dang. Save NU, he is innocent! | ||
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Dang... Now I don't know anymore. Can you teach me? | ||
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On December 07 2016 05:30 emperorchampion wrote: m-god please, you need to teach me Teaching my ways would involve writing a wot about how to write a wot. Are you sure you are prepared and ready for that? | ||
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On December 07 2016 06:12 sicklucker wrote: Na i snipped the doc n1. newbs Damn, SL is town. Scum would never mistake a cop for a doc! EVERYONE VOTE ... UHM??? WHO??? | ||
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On December 07 2016 06:17 sicklucker wrote: Lets lynch mahgirl for thinking hes funny or some shit Not allowed to vote myself. | ||
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On December 07 2016 07:02 Rels wrote: ????????? That doesn't make any fuckign sense. YES SICKLUCKER COULD HAVE BEEN MAYBE TOWN FOR THE FAKECLAIM ALONE BUT NOT FOR THE WAY HE REACTED LATER You didn't believe his reads? You didn't believe his TMI-explanation? You didn't believe he tried to unclaim, but saw your post and decided against it? (when I posted 40 secs before deadline and refreshed once and your post was still nnot there... yo you were probably 20 secs before deadline) | ||
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On December 07 2016 07:10 darthfoley wrote: Good job boys should be straightforward from hereWait until the WIFOM kicks in.... | ||
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At this point we indeed had 3 shots (with one being a townconfirm) between 6 players. I can townconfirm myself, cool. I'm probably more convinced of HF being town than he is himself (because while his excuse for being town, that SL may have been blocked as scum, I was actually thinking that SL was very likely to be blocked, because he was looking like a VT bait) Leaves me with 3 shots between TT, Emp, Onegu, DF. I don't think there is any better than this. And as I consider DF's game damn clean and towny, he is basically the only risk I have. (outside of completely weird shit or me being wrong on HF) So yes... I want to see TT, Emp and Onegu dead/confirmed. And with that in mind, yes, things look damn shit for mafia if this is true. And they need exactly one thing to come back from this train of bad shit happening: WIFOM. And since the SL scumclaim to me it feels like everything in this thread is centered around WIFOM and the "this can't be, because this is clearly a losing play for scum" or "I clearly offered myself for being lynched/checked" is pretty much what I had in mind D3. So don't tell me the current development since SL giving up makes no sense as scum. If those arguments work, this play makes perfectly sense. With this in mind, I will not move from my "kill/confirm TT/Emp/Onegu" stance. If you want to change my mind, you either make the greatest case of your life on DF/HF. Well, or you have to kill me over them, but then please bring a solid case against me and I will defend against it. | ||
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On December 07 2016 20:56 Holyflare wrote: Lol I'm the real jk That's great. so we have 2. Then I guess we do not talk at all anymore this night, wait for the NK and sort everything out during the day. I guess whoever feels like he may get shot should give us a reads summary few seconds before EoN. | ||
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JK1 (Rels) should stick between Emp,TT, Onegu JK2 (HF) should protect/block Rels or do whatever he feels, as I see a lot of valid options here. Any other JK may do whatever he feels too. And either this game just became horribly easy or horribly difficult again. I was already relaxing and on autopilot mode... | ||
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I guess I revise my advice: Every JK in game, and afaik only I claimed VT so far, so we have still 6 JK left, do as you please, but tell us before EoN. Thank you very much. I really don't wanna argue during night though... But I have stuff to read... So call me busy. | ||
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On December 07 2016 22:18 Holyflare wrote: Argue about what....? This is THE night to talk about things because we have to figure out who to rb. What is the difference between JKing someone and lynching him at this point? Imho they are in effect the same. Just that they can't talk after lynching ^.^ (thats actually a reason to not JK onegu but lynch him... he isn't talking anyway^^) Problem I see is that we have 3 shots left. Until few minutes I was completely happy about my 3 target list. If this is now a 4 target list things become damn messy again. So no, we can not simply lynch Onegu later, because this means someone else survives... Actually I'm more inclined to say "JK the most likely scum" The best way this game can end is soon. One JK surviving the night, or a lynch on the next day on the correct target. This should be the goal. The moment we enter a lylo, everything is up in the air... And when we consider DF as potential scum... Scum has a real chance again. | ||
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On December 07 2016 23:05 Tictock wrote: Last thing before I go fight my way through Snow traffic. While I respect both the fear that I could still be scum and the respect that I'm one of the stronger town players endgame. I know kinda preffered the JK on Onegu since then I don't have to read him based on 1 post every 12 hours. Obviously I am biased though, so do as you please Rels. Before you offered yourself to be lynched day4... Where did the self sacrifice go? Shouldn't you prefer "check TT, lynch Onegu" over "check Onegu, lynch TT"? In that case you could lobby yourself for the lynch on D5 on Emp. (always assuming the game goes that far) Why you wanna let Onegu do that in your stead? | ||
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On December 07 2016 23:35 Rels wrote: I'm not gonna change. The thing that cemented that decision was that I find weird that you're not pushing for EC being jailkept. He is your 100% main scum, if I don't target him you're gonna waste tomorrow trying to lynch him; that doesn't make sense IMO. You should be happier with a EC JK than an Onegu JK. And if you're town I trust you to lead town. (= I hate you I had a nice wot... F5ed... you wrote this all in so few lines.... | ||
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Gotta say, I see the doubts HF mentioned...So my previous townlock is kinda gone. But overall I think this still between Emp and TT here. I don't think I would rank DF more likely to be scum than (one of) those two, especially given their latest play. But with that potential we should still aim at finishing this game as soon as possible, so imho the 1) TT 2) Emp route is correct. And if it comes to the D5 worst case scenario... I still don't wanna discuss it now who I would vote for there. I see a fair chance of WIFOM plays during a N4 and don't wanna feed into that, as I consider the conclusion of such thoughts pretty random. And this is more than I want to give scum here. | ||
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If you suddenly feel insulted you dropped from locktown to #3 or #4 on the could-be-scum-list with one scum remaining, then I can't help you. | ||
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On December 08 2016 01:48 darthfoley wrote: I was referencing HF more than you. I just think it's silly to use the final JK on me when everyone has has me highly town read and has for a long time. No way I play this well as scum So much more useful to clear someone who's in the middle or is scum read. Oh, with that I can agree. Now we are all happy friends again, until one mentions "But if it was this easy, scum would have tapped out". Then we do that all again. | ||
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On December 08 2016 07:01 Holyflare wrote: This is fucking boring. ##vote mahrgell Tell me when you have something I should respond to. | ||
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On December 08 2016 07:03 Holyflare wrote: You literally just said tt wasn't mafia and then claimed you saw a mod post. Only way you knew that was if you're mafia knowing the day is continuing. Okay. You convinced me. Can't vote myself though. | ||
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On December 01 2016 00:55 NeverUnlucky wrote: Koshi's case on me is great, but I'm town :/ -Koshi+HF | ||
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On December 08 2016 07:07 Holyflare wrote: You played well too, sucks It's not me who has to play on | ||
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HFs case was so brilliant, that I had no own defense left. So I had to quote a textbook defense. | ||
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If we are doing this case thingy, tell me. If not, then you better have an idea who is it between Onegu and Emp. I stick with Emp->Onegu. Then again, if you lynch me, you better lynch Onegu D5 as it would be too sad if he wins. Emp I can live with. gn8 | ||
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So first in case anyone is serious about this "scum slip" IT WAS A JOKE. I'm not sure if it proves me to be German that somehow nobody understands it or that I have to explain it: I was in this "game drags on forever" apocalypse mode, and judging from the thread I certainly wasn't alone in that. Then even the mods fail to show up... Can you figure out the rest by yourself? So and now to the rest: a) why did I not go for HF? Because this bullshit does not make him scum. It makes him a dick, but not scum. Scum!HF would win the game anyway, when we just lynch Emp and Onegu/DF. So okay, there is still the possibility of him being both... And he just wants to have some fun and show the world how cool he is before he wins. But thats simply not what I believe here. But for some reason whenever HF is bored, he has to turn on me, as he did all game. I appreciate that for once it happened without calling me anything. Should have worried me, I guess. Still I'm kinda mad about this shit (and had to retype this paragraph a dozen times). Like do not moan about players not surrendering those game. Do not fucking moan about having to play forever. It is exactly this kind of shit you are pulling here which leads to Never-Surrender being the correct play at all times. And well... Tell me if you know who you want to vote between Emp and Onegu. at lylo. Because you better do know if you kill me here just because of your "dance puppets dance" attitude. I fucking don't know it who it is between them. And if you really decide you are too cool for this game and vote DF... We better dont meet in postgame. 2) Emps reaction was super towny. Oh please, SURE IT WAS. The guy is the primary lynch target for the day (before this shit happens), and happily jumps on the first alternative lynch that is gonna show up. The textbook definition of towny! Please... SL basically scum claimed midst of D3 (which I felt kinda insulted about, because I had already posted a possible explanation for his play to be town... and then he brings this bullshit)... And what does Emp? Blubbers about "40% chance Emp is town". WTF??? Does he read the thread? And then gets stuck in some weird kind of fetish 1on1 with TT (and I have no idea what TT was doing there either) If Emp really believed in his 40% statement, he should have been in absolute panic mode. And not in panic mode about himself, but in panic mode about the game being outright lost there, because if SL is for whatever reasons town there, town will NOT survive a double lylo (and even the JK check is suddenly not conclusive anymore and the HF towncall reasoning doesnt hold anymore). And 2 shots against 2 scum out of 6 is fucking horrible for town. If for some reason he did not believe in his own words (and just wanted to cause confusion...) then his play still does not make sense. Because suddenly instead of "2 shots vs 2 scum out of 6" you get a "3 shots vs 1 scum out of 5/6" (the last depending if you clear HF here. In this case again it is completely fucking pointless to do this 1on1 battle with TT. Well... except for some kind of weird WIFOM setup idea with "scum could never be so clueless". So no, nothing changes for me here. I vote Emp, I want to see him dead, I want to end the game. And if this does not end it, I will vote Onegu. Because again, same kinda bullshit reaction here, with just blindvoting on the first alternative target (so it would be between Emp and him at lylo) and I honestly have no clue what he did all game. And if it ends with DF being scum, I can live with it at this point. Yes I can read his filter with a scum mindset... But I don't believe it, and if it is, then GG. 3) Not a fan of those, but because this is super popular here lets to a TL style defense too: Your currently voting for: - scrubnoob (your view, not mine) in his second forum mafia game rolls Goon with NU and SL. - because SL decides to do some weird "park my vote on the framer" play, the scrub decides this is cool and busses NU too - scrub then actually kinda softdefends SL all night, but turns on him on the day, tries to get SL lynched all D2 long (lets all call TMI here please!!!) - scrub indeed defends SL start of day3, even preps up the full explanation for SL... SL is too cool for this, posts complete garbage, scrub decides to throw him under the bus (while certain player we are not naming here start the msot weird shenannies) Great stuff you have going here. Pretty brilliant. And after all those devious plays, then you completely caught me on this most obvious scum slip. | ||
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Or is it still your "this guy made a doomsday comment, CLEARLY HE MUST BE SCUM" when pretty much everyone in the thread, including yourself, was making those. | ||
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On December 08 2016 15:02 emperorchampion wrote: The thing I find odd about Mahr's response is that he doesn't immediately go after HF. In my mind if you're town and make some sort of random thing like that, if someone pushes surely you think the person attacking you is mafia? But maybe I'm not seeing things correctly here. Also I don't see this as HF's path to victory, since surely it would be to get me lynched then to aim for Onegu / whoever in lylo. This is kinda a throwy move from HF if he's scum, since if Mahr is town then we go after HF next right? Okay... Could you start making sense, please? So basically you say I should instantly go after HF, and not doing it is scummy! And then you say HFs play makes no sense for scum. OKAY. Call me interested. You have more of those stories? | ||
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On December 08 2016 16:48 Holyflare wrote: You're mafia and it's not going to change bro. Okay. | ||
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On December 08 2016 16:50 Holyflare wrote: And if you're not mafia which is possible then you should be going agyer darthfoley and not emo Because??? Yes, DF kinda took a dive lately. Yes this play makes sense regardless of his alignment. But I don't consider it conclusive the slightest. But I have seen about 0 towny thinking from Emp after SL giving up... Absolutely 0. Just his weird 1on1 with TT which I still cant make any sense of. And it must take some very crazy understanding of the game to call his reaction to your brilliant case on me "towny". So no, I won't change here. | ||
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(I feel like you are the German here by now...) From the thread impression, everyone pretty much lost the will to play, it was just sitting out the game, hoping for it to end rather sooner than later. The modpost was already half an hour late... I actually didn't even intend to post at exactly the full hour, this was indeed coincidence. So the "joke" or "doomsday" was: "If even the mods do not post anymore... it must mean they lost motivation as we did... so they know the game will drag on forever, because they actually have TMI... thus TT is town" So yes, I posted before I saw the modpost. posted it, saw the modpost... posted again. | ||
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![[image loading]](https://media1.giphy.com/media/wiOeZxTKIV0eA/200.gif#0) | ||
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And I better don't ask about your weird bro feelings towards Onegu... But if you really figured out his alignment on the 3 content posts he made over the entire game... whoa. Mad respect. Like there is one reason to believe he can't be scum, and thats those weird NU spews... | ||
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I can't argue about Onegus meta, so I judge form this game... And here I say an Onegu, who was throwing a tantrum when it seems like he was not part of the game, spammed mostly pointless stuff all D1 and since then went completely missing. If this gets you townread I should try that too. And no, I won't understand that thing about Emps reaction...But not feeling like repeating myself here. | ||
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On December 08 2016 13:45 Tictock wrote: HF also stood the most to gain from SL being lynched. Not only did HF push Rels into pushing SL but he came up with the whole " SL never carries KP" thing to "confirm" himself. I bought into that at first but while arguing with Emp last night it's not so far fetched that SL carried KP. Risky? Yea a little bit, but only if JK decides to JK SL and at that point most people were going with the impression that SL was Town. In short it is totally possible for HF to be scum with SL, even if he argues it's super unlikely it is still possible. While I absolutely hate it when people explain (especially when there is no reason to do it) why they are townconfirmed, to me it still made sense. What you are imho missing here is: If Rels would have believed SL to be town (we now know he didnt...) He would have blocked him too. In fact, I think the real JK is more likely to block SL here when the JK believes that SL=VT. When he believes him to be scum, I wouldn't expect the block here. | ||
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Right now I'm thinking if it makes sense for scum to still have SL carry... And if a block shows up, they claim that VT!SL successfully baited a block there... Like yes, this could be some play i can see suddenly... but there is one problem: This would extend the game by one day... So is this really worth it? Not sure... Like I would have to plan this through entirely... But to me it feels that extending the game by another day (and leading into a 3man lylo, assuming no further blocks) is worse than getting a 4man lylo a day earlier. | ||
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And somehow he has been obsessed with you, which I still can't make any sense of (because yes... you were looking pretty damn scummy, sorry...) as it simply does not fit the game situation at all, no matter if he was certain on his 40% SL town post or not... And his night play doesnt make him look any better... Like seriously... His play completely jumped off a cliff somewhere at D3. And as someone pinpointed earlier... It was the moment he was suddenly doubted. | ||
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On December 08 2016 21:12 Onegu wrote: I see the slip... The slip makes sense to me. Like why joke there? Let me look at the time stamps. Also Ugg no no lynch. That kinda needs to be in the OP as that is a normal thing for town to do in mylo.... As without it we arent really in mylo. We are in lylo. we are neither in mylo nor lylo. Good morning and welcome to the game. And is your "Why joke there" your argument for being a scumtell or for being a towntell? Can't figure... And to answer it: Because the game got insanely boring and railroadish and there was nothing to do, it felt. At least this isn't the case anymore, so maybe I should thank myself for making stuff interesting again. | ||
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I agree with most of the stuff you said there... Very similar to TT... Like yes, I would lynch HF for almost everything you said, and well... my "feelings" towards him are no secret this game. --- Point is still about N2: In my mind yes, this is on one hand to perfect setup, and his insistance on calling himself townconfirm since D1 is either a shit habbit or simply annoying. Actually probably both... But on the other hand, I still don't think it makes much sense for SL to carry there. Yes, he can explain it by a succesful bait if he gets blocked there. This would look damn believable. But... assuming no further blocks it would still add another day to the game, and scum certainly wants a 4 player lylo and not a 3 player lylo(assuming one gets caught on the way) to happen, which would they also ruin. Is it really that ballsy play? --- About your argument about him throwing shade late here... Again, maybe I'm undervalueing the gloryness and prestige of the Great HF... But I think he wins this much easier as scum without this absurd JK claim ->check DF shit and this great play he is showing us here right now. But maybe the "Why is the greatest of all players still alive" WIFOM is stronger than I believe and he had to pull those stunts? For me... no... If he really believes all the stuff he propagates about himself... I see a possibility... --- Conclusion: I still think HF is just having his usual issues... And I still dont see any reason why I would want to get off Emp. But well... In the end... Yes, I will vote HF if it is this what saves me (and I admit you two caught me with your "and just in case it is HF... Do you really want him to win?)... But until then I still think Emp should be the target here. But maybe Emp can explain us his... "unusual" play. PS: Thanks for the Hercule Poirot comment... got me off my chair, lol... + Show Spoiler + not a gif, sorry ![[image loading]](https://intenseopinions.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/hercule-poirot.jpg) | ||
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On December 08 2016 23:37 Holyflare wrote: Yet, killing LS the next night was also a terrible play because LS is the easiest person to convince of everything (see when I won himalayas) and he also doesn't do much contributing. Very subpar kill when there's mahrgell/emperor /you/me to kill. Hence why I was trying to figure it out. Heyheyhey... You call me for my shitplay all game, and suddenly I'm the better kill than LS? OKAY.... | ||
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Only TT is there, the lighthouse in dark hours... our shining star.... | ||
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On December 08 2016 23:50 Holyflare wrote: No only onegy tt and me are safe. Not sure we are in the same game here. | ||
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I saw no silence call, I posted. If me posting during it (especially after your "reminder") results in me being given a warning, then I take it. But I think this is left for the postgame. | ||
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Well... so you think Rels lied to us? ^^ | ||
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On December 09 2016 00:05 darthfoley wrote: I play JK irl without consecutive saves But Rels already announced he JK'ed HF twice... So yes, by now you should know this is possible here. | ||
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On December 09 2016 00:08 darthfoley wrote: I didn't check the timestamps because I assumed it couldn't be consecutive nights in a row ??? But we had only 2 nights (well... and the night Rels passed away) Sorry, but I can really not follow here... What timestamps? | ||
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IRL I usually get the feeling to narrow down on targets later in the game. This game it seems like everyone tries to play extrafishy just to spice things up.... | ||
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On December 09 2016 00:17 Holyflare wrote: That's what I'm having a problem with and why I'm bouncing over everything. You're absolutely not supposed to post in silence periods so I thought you pretty much gave up and slipped and so I went all over you. Darth is????? Hasn't played the game since day 2 and now he's come back after voting with me on your slip (thus agreeing) to now voting me. I don't even know if I should dumb tell him now for not knowing. Emperor is scummy but it really gives me a hold up his reaction. You won't get it because it seemed honest and reactionary rather than hurr durr I'm mafia faking. And onegu has so much going for him. I agree with your comments regarding DFs late play. But as I said earlier, this never elevated him to be more scummish than either Emp, who is my clear #1 here and Onegu, with whom I still don't see any reason to townread him for. DF tries his absolute best to climb the list, I will admit that... But I cant figure out how you think Emps day so far has been townish. He really jumped the first train he saw, HOORAY. Then later, when voice of reason TT appeared, he suddenly said he had to reevaluate... And now he is completely MIA, which makes perfect sense while we are battling it out amongst each other. If there ever was something like a silent town circle, this is certainly gone. And then he goes for easy targets when he comes back.(prediction) Like I get that you are calling "gut feeling read" on his initial reaction. But no, overall this day does absolutely not look like a towny trying to solve the game but like scum waiting it out and enjoying the town mauling each other. Unless he tells me he is hardtowning 2 other players here, so he wants to lynch me+X anyway and doesnt care about order. But this is nothing he ever hinted... In fact his head is completely hidden from the thread, because he was all occupied in his 1v1 with TT. | ||
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On December 09 2016 00:51 Onegu wrote: Who cares if things were boring... That isnt a excuse... I agree it looks like you knew TT would still be alive. My first reaction is if the mods didnt make the post right away was because they were finishing up the game over post as those take longer than normal day posts to make... Did you know the mods posted when they did or did you post that before you knew the mods posted their post? As said earlier: I did not see the modpost when I posted first. Also I actually did not expect it. Because again: The modpost was delayed by 30 minutes already! I simply didn't expect the mods completely forgetting the silence period... but then making a EoN post exactly at time. | ||
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On December 09 2016 00:47 Onegu wrote: My plan here kinda got shot when there was a announcement that no lynching was not allowed... My plan was to sheep HF today. Then no lynch tomorrow if we didnt lynch scum. Get down to 2v1 and make my decision then. If HF was alive at that point I was most likely going to lynch him because somehow he was still alive during 2v1 lylo. I can understand him still being alive here as scum knew there was a JK and then they had to kill the JK once they knew who he was. And if the game isnt over today then they will kill TT as he is confirmed town so HF will still be alive tomorrow. So the fact we cant no lynch puts a wrench in that plan... This announcement happened during the night... So again, either you are not reading the game at all or you perfectly knew that "sheep HF on I dont care who" would have serious issues. Because it leaves you with one shot at a 4 player lylo. Anyway... given that this plan is gone... what is your new plan here? With seemingly everyone suddenly trying his best to look scummy... How will you weed through HF, DF, Emp, Mahrgell with only 2 lynches? | ||
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And if you are just nervous about HF and feel Emp is super scummy... Why not kill Emp? Like it feels weird you want to make the "difficult maybe" kill first... And then somehow leave Emp for later... If Emp is not scum, and he is not really trying to give us any reasons to believe that, then you can waffle about HF, Onegu and me for 72 hours... If Emp is scum, the game ends... | ||
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And given the state of game we are in, with a 3v3 vote scenario being a possibility... Announcing votes here and not following up is... strange. | ||
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On December 09 2016 02:29 darthfoley wrote: Because I slept on it and realized it wasn't enough for me to throw my vote on it. @mahrgell Because we can lynch HF now and I don't see a scenario in which we have the balls to lynch him in a final 4 Mylol. Sure if emp is scum then we win. If he's not then it's a final four between me you HF and Onegu and I'm quite nervous about the two of us being the two lynch candidates tomorrow, one of us voting on the other because each of us knows that we are individually town so we save our skin, then lose to scum!HF who's bullied us into doing so What is this fucking balls argument? Seriously? Sorry, but I indeed try to lynch who I believe is scum. This is not HF right now. So yes... maybe your logic is "when Emp is gone and [assuming] TT dies at night" there are 2 people less who vote for HF, because seemingly there is brolove between Onegu and HF and this Mahrgell dude seems unable to vote for HF. But well... then you better lobby to TT and Emp hard to get your will now. Until Emp shows up and brings me something convincing, and at this point im not sure what this could be, I will stick with him. And if things stay as they are, I will vote HF only if I'm the alternative target. Well.. given you have only fakevoted I guess I'm still the only train here... | ||
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And yes, at this point I indeed consider a 3v3 vote distribution a possibility. And then suddenly it comes down to the time when people got their vote. And I'm really not in the mood for such shenannies. | ||
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But I explained over and over again, why I think that the N2 play does not make sense for scum!HF, because you end with an additional day and a 2v1 lylo instead of 3v1 lylo. So regardless of HF's ego issues, I think it wouldn't have been a valid scum play there. Unless you tell me they all the time banked on HF getting this JK, and then him suddenly carrying the game. But imho the chance for a JK on SL was way higher than a JK on HF there. So in short: the play makes sense, when you know HF gets the JK. But when SL gets JK'd it simply sucks, especially as it doesn't help HF at all to carry late and SL will probably still get lynched sooner or later and not make it to lylo. And yes, I think HF would have enough discipline to carry the game home given the position he was in after D2. He didn't need all the shit we are having here right now. | ||
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On December 09 2016 07:04 Tictock wrote: Ok I got a minute so couple of things. Gell, why do you call your post at start of day a joke? I could see you make that post as Town, but I didn't respond to HF last night as I wanted to see your response. Calling it a joke feels weird to me and doesn't match what I would expect a town to be thinking when he makes those posts. I called it a joke, because it was meant as one... Do you want me to make up some weird story how I made this post? And I think I explained enough what my thinking was at that time. You want me to repeat it again? | ||
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On December 09 2016 06:57 emperorchampion wrote: Way ahead of your time m-god. Do you remember what you were thinking here? It's pretty non-obvious from your filter. I dunno reading Mahr's filter, he doesn't look like mafia to me. The more I think about it, the less sure I am of darth. Onegu still OK with atm. Okay, I guess we go a bit back here: - at start of the day I considered both options of SL being VT and Scum, and TT was my topscum (see EoN2) - when suddenly everyone jumped him, I was very worried, because if he was VT and died there, the game was suddenly simply over. There would be 2 lynches left to lynch 2 scum out of 6 players, Rels would not have a conclusive check before he dies (and he is JK, but the lack of CC made this rather likely), and pretty much everyone was a potential scum. - even more worrying though was that nobody even considered this option. Everyone was very determined on lynching SL, which to me lead to either the option that town was fucking asleep or scum was doing really damn good work here - I even detailed how SLs play made sense so far - SL never showed up (but a townSL could have now started posting seriously)) - then SL showed up, he dropped his pure trolly style, but even made longer serious posts. Sadly they were completely awful. His reads were randomized, his TMI explanation was terrible, and the most striking part was him being insistant on this "I tried to post at EoN" which was like... NO! I knew exactly that there were at best 20 secs between Rels claim and deadline. - I considered this a scumclaim. His actions did not at all matched the town!SL I had in mind. They perfectly matched the scum!SL who had done this shit all D1-D2 with only causing confusion and random posts... - with SL being scum, suddenly the game was rather easy: --- HF was a townlock for me for reasons I repeated enough today --- Rels was almost certainly the JK, and had clearly stated that for him it was between TT and you in the next night. From all I have seen from Rels(we played together in the newbiegame and I had a superheated discussion early D3) I did not consider him to be a trickster. He does what he says. He does not say stuff to bait people... --- You were kinda Neut --- TT was still my topscum (besides SL, obv) --- Onegu was a trouble some wildcard --- DF I had an extremely good impression So the game was a railroad from here: lynch SL, check Emp/TT, lynch the other if scum not found, if game is still not end, there is a decision between DF and Onegu. I was pretty set on Onegu here, but as I saw some potential on WIFOM plays night4, if it comes to that, I did not want to share this already made decision. There are some sidelines with people trying to fake N3 by shooting at Rels target... But those all seemed to not work at all, even if Rels target is lynched, the game becomes only worse for scum. With this in mind, there was one way out for scum... WIFOM. The game was fucking over. But all scum could do was setting up WIFOMs aka "scum would have surrendered if this was true" or "this game is too easy, cant be that" ------ Next morning, I woke up, checked the thread... And I saw exactly what I had expected. TT and you were suddenly in some weird 1on1. This made absolutely no sense at this point. And especially your insistence on 40% chance of SL being town made no sense for all kinds of reasons I had detailed earlier. So with this convo you pretty much caught up in scummyness with TT, but luckily I wouldn't have to pick between you two. Rels was still on track on checking between you two, and I felt HF was exactly on the same boat. So there was this silent town circle thing. All that was needed now was to STFU. Not talking to cut down any potential for WIFOM plays. Let exactly those players who were the suspects here initiate it. --- I guess I stop here or do you want a continuation? | ||
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On December 09 2016 02:21 mahrgell wrote: What was your "obvious lynch order" earlier? And if you are just nervous about HF and feel Emp is super scummy... Why not kill Emp? Like it feels weird you want to make the "difficult maybe" kill first... And then somehow leave Emp for later... If Emp is not scum, and he is not really trying to give us any reasons to believe that, then you can waffle about HF, Onegu and me for 72 hours... If Emp is scum, the game ends... @DF I ust noticed, you ignored this question. Care to answer it? | ||
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On December 09 2016 02:08 darthfoley wrote: hi i'm back so this characterization of my play since D1 is not true imo. D2 I cased Shape pretty hard and was one of the driving forces behind the lynch. Unfortunately, I got that wrong. Regarding D3, I had made my opinion of SL very clear before he fake claimed JK. I even wanted to lynch him back as early as D1. Like everyone, I was a little confused initially with Rels's cc at night but I made my mind up and voted SL and had no reservations about it. It's not my fault there hasn't been much to talk about until today. The lynch order in my mind from D2 until now has been kind of obvious. I guess i've been a bit lazy outside of the lynches but there's no real point imo in concocting all these scenarios of hypotheticals contingent on X being Y and Z being Q. I think about the motivation of plays, but not specific players if that makes sense. Better to see what the flip is any analyze from there. As of now I think Onegu is probably town because of his interpretation of the long no-post phase, which I hadn't thought of but makes a lot of sense from town POV. Mahrgell meh his wall of texts and hedging makes me more nervous than his supposed slip but I guess I have to lean him town because of the other two. I'm super paranoid about HF although I need to rethink my case considering JKs can spam JK on someone multiple nights in a row. Can't remember the last time Emp said something I thought was towny. As of now I think the order should be HF --> emp or vice versa. I want confirmed!TT to come back pls | ||
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Like in what order to cut down the remaining players until all scum have dropped ^.^ | ||
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On December 10 2016 01:22 emperorchampion wrote: Cooling down a bit. HF I don't even know 1) why you're so hostile, and 2) why you're scum reading me, since your last reasons is literally because I was afk. Like actually no one in this thread had given legitimate reasons, and it's really pissing me off since I can't do anything about it. Anyways, I'm going to filter darth Repeating this again and again doesn't make it more true... You are simply ignoring it. But two make it short: Your D3 play after SLs weird presence looked completely weird. Especially you insisting that SL may be town. Regardless of how you came to that idea after all the shit SL posted, if you believed there to be such a high chance of him being town I would have absolutely expected a rampage there by you to wake town up and consider it again instead of simply accepting his demise. Given that I had the same though for half the day... I know how it feels to be in that spot. And if you really felt that TT was more likely scum than SL, well... the way you 2 fought there was in a way entertaining, but certainly not suited to change anyone to come from SL over to TT. And if you made this comment, but didn't believe it (why?) again your 1on1 with TT was completely strange. if SL was scum, all that was there to do was to find 3 targets out of the remaining players... And given that TT was amongst the top priorities for almost everyone, investigating him like this felt... strange. And it continued later too... you were entirely focussed on TT, and on not getting JK'ed yourself at night. Why? You never presented a 3 scum list... Again I simply can not follow your thinking there. I mean you were even beating on TT after he was already clearly called out the JK target... And unlike HF I still dont feel your reaction when you jumped my wagon was very towny. It wasn't a "oh lol, what a slip" but you simply jumped the first train you saw... At least how it felt to me... You explaining why I should scumread HF for it, when at the same time detailing why this makes no sense for scum!HF didn't help either. And now you vote me, flail against HF and then say you wanna investigate DF??? Why not investigate HF then? Like right now I really see no factual reasons why I wouldn't want to lynch you. Pretty much everyone you said since midst of D3 gives me very strong scum feelings. The only thing making me doubt right now is my last newbiegame, where you remind me of Exo... He also played completely strange, got cased by everyone, and then ignored all cases against him and went flailing against absolutely everybody he could get (and was town)... But not sure this is a comparison you want me to make... | ||
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What made you reread your own filter? | ||
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GOSH... I will pay for "how to make concise posts" lessons after this game ^.^ | ||
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Lists the entire game in his post... I thought in a poe the focus was on eliminating some players... This weird Onegu thing... How would you, assuming you were left alive, figure him out? What if Onegu simply continues what he has been doing all game??? Namely doing absolutely nothing game related? I can not follow your head here And still, I somehow get Exo-vibes here -.- Brain or Heart? What to follow? I will have to buy a xmas tree before shop close.... Will be back a bit before deadline...(like 1-2h before) Would welcome if the the discussion here is kept up. | ||
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Will read once back. | ||
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But somehow my brain can't make much sense of what Emp is saying. I simply don't understand it as townish thinking and have no idea how he got there... At the same time his posts feel "real" from an emotional level... And still no idea what to make out of Onegu... so if I leave Onegu out, I'm at Head: Scum-Emp-DF-HF-Town Heart: Scum-HF-DF-Emp-Town | ||
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About HF: I still believe in this N2-JK thing... Logic dictates me that this is enough... I also think his pushes post-D3 etc made sense for the Town!SL I had in mind... But it is pretty much everything else that really tickles me. His consequent desire to point out his townconfirmedness... Those weird and terrible bluecrumbs early... Him going completely ham and personal at everyone questioning him... AlsoI really thought the game was over earlier today... when Emp stopped posting... and suddenly HF felt to go completely mad at TT? for what? TT can't be scum. Emp looked like a sure lynch and game oer? Why fight over TTs accusations? Like I was split between doing nothing or doing some light work on checking out others... but why argue with TT there? It gave me really bad vibes and was the first real crack in waht I expected from the Town!SL I had in mind... Onegu: ... yeah... thats it. | ||
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Reads my filter, calls me very sure town Reads DFs filter, calls DF sure town... | ||
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On December 10 2016 05:51 emperorchampion wrote: Any parts particularly that you have trouble reconciling? When you say "I thought there is a 40% chance of him being town" vs "he didnt even defend himself anymore -> no need for me to defend him"... I simply can't follow it... As I said... I had the same situation earlier the day, and simply can't follow your line... Also why did you feel the need to prove your towniness to TT? You weren't up for lynch... Also to me it looked way more like an accusation battle with both calling each other scum than an attempt to prove the own towniness. Would have to reread it though... Also I lack a clear line of your thoughts N3,D4... It again seems entirely unfocused... pretty much like "anybody but me" | ||
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On December 10 2016 05:51 Tictock wrote: What is making you doubt Darth in both those lists? Onegu seems to have been spewed town quite a bit and has voted a ton with mafia which Scum tend not do. I think he's a pretty safe town read. is my answer I posted after the quoted post enough? | ||
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On December 10 2016 05:56 emperorchampion wrote: The issue is that everyone looks town to me, so I feel like a gold fish whenever I read something again Well... who would you lynch instead of yourself | ||
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When you townread everyone else, maybe it is time to reread your own rolePM... Like somehow I feel like you are genuine... but at the same time I don't know who I really want to lynch over you (and you are not giving me any reasons to choose anyone else)... And: Why are you doing all this now right before deadline panic? Like why do you have to be on the block to even start to properly read anyone else? I just reread your filter, and you basically went completely in circles on everybody during D3. Why not do the research back then when you feel unsecure? | ||
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On December 10 2016 07:31 darthfoley wrote: HerculesFlare why are you still alive in a final 4? Because scum is terrible and didn't lynch him. Didn't you read the game? ^.^ | ||
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On December 10 2016 07:42 Holyflare wrote: I don't know why you keep trying to weave this logic. Koshi was a fine kill and also technically a medic dodge (by virtue of me being jk). There's only one possible night in this entire game where mafia has had some chance at killing me and that was night 2 where I was also a likely jk target. You were a likely JK target? So it would make sense that SL carried the KP if you were scum together? | ||
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Especially as DFs post indeed rang all my alarm bells... But somehow I was still too paralyzed about the game not ending... HF was way quicker to battle, which kinda... surprised me... And him suddenly deconstructing all his reasons why he would be town... looks like selfpunching... | ||
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Change of topic: Can someone summarize again why Onegu is so townish to everyone? Like... Him being cheerful during D1, cool.. Him doing more happy posts... okay... His great plan how to end the game (which he presented way after the modpost telling about there being no nolynch option, so again, it was not game relevant) Like I went through his filter again... And there are simply only 3 content posts regarding this game. Everything else is joyful spam (LOCKTOWN!) or him talking about his great plan which again was not about this game... And well... his D4 actions were ultimately lazy... He ignored all questions directed at him during pretty much the entire game... and was always gone when action happened at most opportune times... Like it just all fit for him... And the most solid reasoning for him being townread are actually in the filters of NU and SL. But if this idlestrat was the plan all the time... those comments actually make kinda sense... Maybe im wifoming myself here... But after all those hard fought battles... I would probably the saddest puppy in the universe if shellshockedNU-randomizerSL and afkOnegu win this game.... | ||
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Like I asked you this a dozen times by now... But your reasons were simply never anything I could really follow... Also not sure it was you or Koshi who I clashed with over an Onegu-is-certainly-town read early N2. (I think it was Koshi and started my rant??? not sure... I was somehow battling everyone at that time...) | ||
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Have you played with SL before? If so, can you describe the game and your performance? | ||
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Like is he closer to Onegu or to HF/Koshi? A not caring funplayer or another selfcentered vet? Or completely different? | ||
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How confident were you in Emp being scum at EoD4? | ||
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As you now said that you will look into the game, will we get some "reads summary" from you at some point during the night or day? Or will you continue playing this shady background eminence? Like I get the vibes that at least lately you are indeed thinking about the game... and I can even understand your motivation to not want to share your thoughts... But well... it makes reading you certainly not easier (and maybe you have new points to free me out my my circles where I even punish myself with reading SLs filter, because I read everyone elses filter like 2 dozen times ^.^) | ||
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On December 10 2016 23:14 Holyflare wrote: I'm at a friend's Christmas party all weekend so yeh I can't really say much. Mahr what do you think of df's frustration at me? I find it strange that he's so frustrated with me if he thinks I'm mafia? Uhm... Is it okay to say that I understand it because it pretty much reflects my own feelings towards your style? It just took him longer to get to that point than me... But sadly this emotional outburst by both of you kinda overshadowed the actually interesting points of the conversation, even though I felt like some stuff said in the heat of the battle was rather... interesting. | ||
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On December 10 2016 23:10 Holyflare wrote: A conspiracy nut loon that does his own thing. What does he value higher: his own thing/fun or winning? Like will he change his "own thing" if it a clear "losing strat" given the surroundings? | ||
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Because I don't want to. | ||
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On December 11 2016 00:37 darthfoley wrote: I was actually pretty confident when I saw his "sorry town " post because I felt like that was a post from scum knowing they're going down and apologizing for lying the whole game lol. I didn't think any of his points were great to the point where I would have switched my vote. Then I really wonder what triggered your defense minutes because the game was seemingly over... I haven't had the impression that you are the kind of guy who has such a strong pride that he cant take being questioned, especially when you have the feeling you are proven correct (and a winner) in a few minutes anyway... Especially with you repeating that your approach to the game is centered around phase to phase this premature defense is indeed weird. | ||
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On December 11 2016 02:01 Onegu wrote: Wow this is really what you are putting here? Me and SL are almost as bad as me and Koshi. IE we dont really get along. I was actually surprised he was jokey with me this game. It should have put off warning bells for me but didnt. Like HF wrote is is a nut and tries to make big plays just so he can. But his relationship with HF is much better than it is with me. And the self centered vet part is true. I'm somehow amused by you guys answers... Not sure you wanted to answer the question or you tried to guess(not difficult, I think) where I wanted to go with the question, and both answered in a way that suit yourself the most... but hey @DF: you also played with SL, I guess you read the game even after your death or maybe also read another game... what is your opinion here | ||
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What was your impression of SLs play d1/n1: Was this the kind of play suited to get himself to lylo and win there? Or "did it just go wrong, or was surviving until the end never the goal?" My impression was that it was nearly impossible for him to achieve that with this rather chaotic and strange play... And the general consensus on him n1/d2 seems to somehow agree with that. | ||
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On December 11 2016 03:14 Onegu wrote: How did I not answer the question? Oh you meant is his playstyle close to mine. Oh hell no, he is a much more tryhard. No one is close to me. I mix trolling and actually figuring stuff out in a way that no one can mimic. Was this directed at me? As I said, it felt everyone was trying o make it less likely to look like SL+himself is a possible scum pairing here. Anyway, there are more questions! :D So what do you think about SLs initial playstyle this game, only looking at d1/n1? | ||
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On December 11 2016 04:53 Holyflare wrote: Mahrgell any time you wanna drop your interpretations are fine? What? Sorry, but I really don't understand the question here. Is this even a question? Or are you asking when I will do it? | ||
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I need some more time... Still rereading some stuff and trying to string everything together.... | ||
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But looks like nobody wants to talk anymore. | ||
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On December 11 2016 05:04 Holyflare wrote: Your questions seem largely irrelevant that's why. If you have something to say or questions involving someone's own play then ask them. I'm not sure why you think figuring out dead scums play is irrelevant. | ||
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On December 11 2016 05:04 Holyflare wrote: Onegu seems like he's not gonna be doing much which is unfortunate. Does that make him town, scum or just a lazy nut? | ||
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On December 11 2016 05:15 Holyflare wrote: It makes him precisely onegu. I did spend like 2 cycles figuring out sl's filter and that's why we lynched emp really. What's kinda weird is you seem all behind the scenes-y and don't really give any opinions. You dropped some questions and then have no conclusions and aren't concerned with alluding to things like how each definition of sl given benefits that person. Just wanna know where you're at. Oh, only because I don't share everything with you this suddenly means I have no conclusions? Hmmm... Do you think I should post them before EoN? | ||
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Well.... as you clearly wanna talk about it: Why on earth is your N4 so different from your previous play? - did you really believe Onegu would simply lock in his vote on you, regardless what happens? Why get him off now? - this would have been a great bait.... And I indeed believe Onegu can be reasoned with when it is an obvious 2v2 votes with the second guy on you looking scummy as fuck only capitalizing on Onegus stubborness. - or similarly a 3v1 on Onegu could have been done... - suddenly you are the waffle master, defending yourself with "yeah, my reads change all the time". Where is your confidence? - How did you manage to trash all your own "this is why im clearly locktown" points over the course of two pages? Why should anyone take your obsession with confirming yourself as locktown serious at all, when you obviously show that you adjust those arguments as you need them every time a discussion pops up? - Given your publicly shown despise on "appeal to emotion" how did you suddenly start using it on DF as well as Onegu? - Why is a player with your posting/playing style suddenly flipping so hard on those DF attacks? Especially considering our D1-D2 history... - Why you call for me telling you where I am... without contributing anything yourself? - Why you suddenly play stupid where my questions are supposed to lead... And throw away any conclusion before it is even out. Especially given that your answer and comparing it to Onegus answer is quite telling... Hint: Where those questions were going: Would SL, a forumvet, really decide to play this throwaway style d1/n1 which has 0 chance to ever get him to lylo or even win a lylo, when he is in a team with NU (on his first scumgame, completely overwhelmed and thrown away d1 anyway) and a low profile player like DF on goon (and you certainly cant plan around getting a N1 cop kill)? I originally only thought about if his later play made sense in a team with DF and it absolutely did, as DF looked towny af and cop was gone... But the thing is that LS was throwing himself away right from the start of the game. This posting style does not survive. So unless he didn't care at all about the result... there must be someone he trusted to profit from his obvious role as confusion causer. And I don't believe this to be DF. But yes... this makes sense for both Onegu and HF.... - Why do you suddenly ask where TT is? Didn't you absolutely hate him, as he was only tunneling on you anyway? Or do you hope he can give you great reads about other players that you missed? His alignment is clear, so there is nothing to figure out about him. You have showed again and again that you do not give a flying fuck about his opinion... But suddenly you are asking for him? - Why you suddenly play stupid on why players hold back on information? Especially when they are still asking various questions? - Why you suddenly want to rush stuff? For someone "being not really here" you were kinda... pushing it. We have >48h to discuss this lylo... Or do you have a decision to do before? Hint: scum has to make some decision before... and TT is maybe the "standard NK"... but not the only option... So knowing where he stands only profits those who are either hoping for him to deliver new points and are willing to listen to him... Or for scum deciding on who to NK. Similarly HF trying to play stupid and get anything from me asap... Why not wait until after deadline? Or is it that yes, my questions were clearly loaded towards him? With DF publicly stating that he does not consider voting me for now... TT may really be better to have around, especially when he can be wifomed into "I would obviously never let you survive, as you were clearly tunneling onto me and are the obv nk" -and even this seems so much out of HFs usual style and more adressed at reinforcing DFs and my doubts about him. Especially given that Onegu may not have shown much... but I'm pretty sure he is not just sitting there policy lynching but has some plan... - so yes... I may have cleared HF all the time for this N2 thing... But pretty much everything else went against him from beginning to end especially from a gut point... Yes, his play N3/D4 fitted the town!HF i had in mind... but I discarded it for Scum!HF, as I thought the game was railroadish... But I clearly underestimated how many changes this game gets over the time... And for a Scum!HF suddenly those actions make sense, trying to seal it... Running out of time, this has to do. If I stay around, I can detail. Anyway... vote HF! | ||
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Now that we reached the final day, is there a reason to hold back, Onegu? Or are you ready to drop the read bombs finally? You probably wont convince me that I'm scum... but between HF and DF... Who is it? Also do you agree with my judgement on SL? Or would he completely able to do this LEROY style even when he does not trust his mates? My feeling with the selfcentered vets on TL is, that they always want to grab the game for themselves... Never follow, always lead, everything being centered around them... I simply can't imagine a SL getting GF(insanely powerful in this setup) and then pull this shit without someone else they respect to carry through... And respect the typical TLvet seems to only have for other TLvets... | ||
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And no, I wont read all SL games suddenly... Ive read one partially early into this game, when I asked for one... Who is your scumread? | ||
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I would still like your answer to aboves question... Especially regarding the characterisation of SL... | ||
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I guess we talk tomorrow then... maybe there is more reason in the game then... | ||
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On December 11 2016 07:41 Onegu wrote: Except the Cop was dead when he went for he claim. His role was useless when he fakeclaimed. So that point doesnt matter. And yes he wants to make big plays and it doenst have to be someone he respects just someone he thinks can win. That could be you or HF maybe dearth... He 100% would never do it if I was the last scum I can tell you that for certain and that is what should clear me. I was talking about his pre EoN1 game, where he just parked his vote, rolled dice on his reads and shitposted... I already said that post EoN1 his play makes perfect sense with any player ho is still alive as mate... (and you saying otherwise about yourself won't account for much here )But I was talking purely about D1/N1 | ||
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On December 11 2016 08:37 darthfoley wrote: You made a reasonable post that I agreed with and hf just said that it was terrible but you should vote for him. Don't know how you're supposed to converse if everything is WIFOM and OMGUS Didn't blame anyone. It was just a general feeling of the thread. And yes, HF is kinda in the centre of it, and I don't think any of his D5 posts tell anything about his alignment at all. So my read here stays the same. Question is just if someone "overtakes" him again. | ||
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This defense, 3 minutes before deadline with a sealed lynch on Emp who DF was certain to be last scum (so game should have ended) Given that this triggered most of the mess N4 had become... I seriously wonder if you read the game. | ||
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On December 11 2016 10:04 Onegu wrote: The more interesting post on that page is this. http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/mafia/515094-a-mini-with-funny-gifs?page=141#2804 HF says both you and DF made SL claim and it could have been pre arranged. But when I bring it up just now it being pre arranged is not likely and he doesnt talk about DF making SL claim also. Because that arguement could be used for both of you. You both went after SL. So why today leave out DF and go after DF. But if DF was pre arranged why couldnt yours Mahr be? It makes sense what you are saying... But in general you could notice that HF when being enraged about my case or whatever after EoN basically switched his scum suspect based on who he was talking to... Also with regards to DF he seems to be very flippy since midst of D4... between clearing him of doubt for menioned reasons back into going full battle mode "you are scum" In the end I have to say, if he is town and was indeed in full rage mode... I don't give too much about his targets and reasoning... If he was scum, well... again his stuff is mostly WIFOM and should not be relevant... So I'm waiting for him to come back calmly again but won't draw any conclusions from his early D5 posts. Which still leaves me with this completely weird N4 from him though. He should know perfectly well why people keep back information at this stage. He knew perfectly well that scum could indeed keep TT alive. Why was he suddenly interested in TT's opinion? (Really... you have to read the progression between HF and TT to understand how this is strange). Why push me to get my thoughts out asap, when there is still more than enough time uring the day to figure out things? It gave me really strong vibes of HF panicking, because for really the first time the game seemed to turn on him. And him trying to figure out who to nightkill. | ||
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On December 11 2016 12:10 darthfoley wrote: Where did you get the opinion that I was certain he was mafia? That's not true. Okay, you later said "pretty confident". Probably slightly too strong wording from me here. It still struck me as odd, especially as your defense towards HF asking you out on it didn't mention the "for postgame" idea from Onegu, which would actually make sense to me... But this wasn't your thinking. And I admit that I'm with HF here... it looks completely weird you were "pretty certain" about the game to end, emphasized several times this game how you think from phase to phase and not try to look too far ahead and have generally been rather reactive and "lazy" (no offense, dont jump me plz) and suddenly you post a defense, where you are "pretty certain" it is not necessary at all. | ||
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Well... let's say I have a hard time of merging your latest answers with the image you presented in this game But if you are serious we can discuss this in post game... Anyway, if you are back in serious mode... DF it is for you? @DF How is your "let's investigate Onegu vs HF" going? I have to say, i somehow lack initiative from you... and this for quite some time now... We are down to 4... Sitting back and waiting for other to stir up shit is not really valid anymore... @Onegu Will your promised investigations be finished at a similar good timing as your TT case day3? | ||
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On December 12 2016 05:24 Holyflare wrote: What does your last post even mean wtf? At what point have I hidden anything? That you suddenly valueing TTs contributions is hard to believe. And that you not seeing any cases where holding back stuff is useful. Especially when scum has not yet decided on his final nightkill... and can either easily wifom of the victim or just remove a suspicious guy... But as I said... I dont think this discussion is relevant... Would be more interested in the question of who is scum if not you --- I have a rather packed day tmrw... so gonna be off for now... I should be able to follow the game tmrw via phone and post if it is really necessary, then I should be available in the evening until deadline... | ||
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With time slowly running low, I guess I can also say that I won't vote Onegu here... His own filter fits scum perfectly, but it is true that the filters of the known scum and oog stuff made my up my mind quite some time ago... Which leaves me with DF vs HF... HF: Yes, I originally expected Scum!HF to murder Onegu at night... And I was ready to jump him the moment Onegu dies, especially after he suddenly asked for TT and in general was really pushy to get information before EoN... And I'm kinda pissed at myself for actually pointing out those doubts during the night (let's come back to why hiding stuff is useful at night). From gut feeling, I (unsurprisingly) never felt good about HF. I think I pointed out my issues with his early game tunnels ignoring half the game and any questions. Him being so quick on declaring TOWNCONFIRMED on himself, with arguments he juggled as he needed is something that just screams... MEH to me... Yes, his bluecrumbs were terrible, but given the fact that there were less experienced players in the game, I still consider them an antitown play. You have to convince 2 scum that you are a blue, and chances of one seeing through it are high... But it is enough to convince one new blue (even Rels was obviously new enough) and you suck a protection where none is needed. There is still the issue with N2 though... Basically it is still the main reason why I doubt myself here... Giving SL KP had clear downsides with regarding to lylo if he gets blocked... (unless they changed the lynch last second... but given the short timeframe the possibility depends on how strict the mods were, were I would assume it not being possible) His later play I originally considered in line with Town!HF, but not with a Scum!HF cruising to victory... I admit that this read was probably simply my lack of experience. I didn't think the game would find that many turns in the coming days so I thought cruising to victory would have been way easier for him if he was scum... So let's consider this neut as it made sense for both alignments. N4 I detailed enough... Suddenly using "appeal to emotion" on everyone after bashing others for using it, in general the sudden change of tone and his unusual behaviour near EoN ticked me back on him. (I was originally looking into DF after his out of place defense) D5 here... uhm... I haven't seen much to change my mind on HF. Most was at best WIFOM and waiting for timecreep to cause doubts... But I guess regardless of his alignment I can consider his read on Onegu real, which kinda makes me feel better in that department. ----- DF: DF is pretty much the opposite of HF at this point... Especially his early game filter reads super fluent and reminds me of our last game... In general, the overall vibes I get from DF have always been more townish, at least early... Where he really dropped is later though. Basically since EoD2 I have the feeling he is mostly cruising by. This is not necessarily a change from his early game play, where he also followed that "observe and react" style... But it is simply not useful in a less populated endgame... And lazy sheeping is uncool, especially when he one post later flips 180° and goes for the accuser in the case he just supported and reasons with HF making that case... Talking about how we should kill HF over Emp (who DF considered topscum) again triggered my alarm bells... Yes, it certainly makes sense to sit at lylo with someone very scumsuspected... if you are scum yourself. His strange defense at EoD4 has been pointed out enough... And afterwards again, I lacked any initiative from him to solve the game, actually he was more concerned with defending himself. Regarding the argument of SLs filter... I'm not 100% sure if I wan't to WIFOM myself on the later stuff on SLs filter... I still feel like he intentionally tried to break rules there...But I guess HFs more detailed explanation makes kinda sense there... (then again, the more than obvious sliming from SL towards HF would also make perfectly sense in how I imagine that team in my mind ^.^) And well... there is still my doubt if SL would banzai with only DF goon on his team... (and again... even before Koshi!Cop died, SL's playstyle was full suicide mode) ---- Conclusion: I wish there was one... I guess: ##unvote Will think until I'm done here... and then back in the evening to decide... | ||
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##vote HolyFlare I asked this very same question about SLs D1/N1 play at night. Mr "There is no reason to ever hold anything back" HF decided to completely ignore it, called garbage on me, wanted to know where I am, fake raged... I brought it up again in the EoN case against you, again you ignored it... Suddenly you care? At this point I may even drop this point, but your reaction at night and now is quite... telling. Same with the "It would never make any sense to NK anyone but TT". First of all, this is some shit I would maybe believe from CM8... From you? Nope. Stop playing stupid, when it suits you... Then again, this is not the first incident of this type. You finally have to decide if you want to pretend you are the absolute god of this game or if you want to pretend it wouldn't have made sense there... And again... this was brought up at EoN - no reaction from you This was brought up by Onegu and basically the only reason he mentioned why he townread you (because he is still alive) - no reaction Now suddenly you react to me saying it again and try to use it? Cool! | ||
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On December 12 2016 23:50 Holyflare wrote: It's also absolutely bs that "I ignored you". I, yet again, explained how I wasn't here this weekend and wouldn't able to respond properly which you've, yet again, ignored. BUT that specific instance which you say I didn't respond to I DID. AND you exclaimed how both onegu's answers and mine were opportunistic for both of us. So not only did I respond (I thought you were asking about sl's usual play) but YOU also responded. You have a weak memory... You (and Onegu) responded to my first question, asking about SLs playstyle and I was amused by your answer. The one I'm talking about is that one regarding the impression of his D1/N1 play http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26227996 Find your answer here... Oups... (and my impression of his play is summarized there in 2 lines... I'm proud of myself looking back here) --- And regarding you suddenly calling BS on me: Why didn't you do it earlier? I thought you are all about open cards? While we are at it: How come, you have again this behavior you had all game (except D3, where you were on me for that "slip") where you have absolutely nothing worth mentioning against me, indeed you even tell Onegu why you think that DF is more scummy than me and basically all your last filter pages that where not self defense rage were about how DF is scummy (or being mad at me for asking questions)... but suddenly you have to keep your options open again? And suddenly even Onegu is scumspected again? Wasn't he cleared few posts again? ---- And I don't think there is a point in arguing why your play indeed makes sense for scum, as you will do your usual "MIMIMIMI I would never do that as scum" bullshit again and we WIFOM each other out. Thats cool. But you can play this game alone with yourself. | ||
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Looks like absolutely nothing has happened? Cool. @HF: I think you should work on your messaging if you are sincere here... Maybe it would help if you would not always spin everything as you currently need it This is pretty much at this point the difference between you and DF for me.DF has kinda weird shit in his filter... but when asked on it, he answers in ways that somehow make me believe, that it was really that: weird shit that just happens in a 2 week game. You go completely personal and ham against everyone finding the slightest argument against you... and destroy your own narrative with each turn because in your next rage you twist everything the other way around... For someone who calls out, that playing with open cards is always the correct town play, you simply cased yourself... Then again, you also went mad on DF and me, when we went after you... And then told us that DF looks very scummy, because town would never get mad when someone they suspect as scum cases them Or did you always flip between who is it between DF and me, so you could get mad at the one bringing stuff against you as he was your current townread? | ||
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Especially after you said that I should not overthink SL's filter (when I was talking about his early filter while you now case DF based on what SL said while he was already going down. | ||
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On December 13 2016 02:30 darthfoley wrote: The problem with your reasoning is that I am town bro I've heard that before, but you forgot to mention that it was a great case. Or did you obmit that because HF already mentioned that? | ||
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Even in the last couple of hours you flipped between Onegu being potential scum and being certain town. You flipping back and fourth on me without doing anything isn't looking much better. Everything centered on DF... Still you "keep your options open" and don't even vote the only guy you are focussing on. Oh, and I don't believe that town playing a fully open cards game at lylo is correct. At least thats certainly not how I play my RL lylos as town. | ||
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I obv suck at jokes. :/ | ||
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On December 13 2016 03:42 Holyflare wrote: Where have I flipped back and forth at all? If flipping back and forth involves a one line post that's just me thinking out loud and is irrelevant. I don't like to hide anything back. I was quite quick to rethink it and say that Onegu was likely townier than DF. I also cannot access teamliquid at work so I have to do a workaround where only liquidhearthstone works because that is the only site that I can somehow bypass and even then it is specifically this thread and not the main site. If someone else asks me to point out where you flipped between your judgement on Onegu and myself, I might even answer that Somehow I feel though everyone else sees it, and I guess I won't convince you to vote yourself...Anyway... feel free to present me how your great analysis on how you can't be scum not aligns with your idea of "How DF can be scum" or is it Onegu again? I feel like half your arguments apply to the one or other still alive here too... You want me to do a similar list? | ||
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-my caring attitude -me actually trying to move the game forward pretty much through out the entire game and filtering everyone a dozen times -me posting wots all the time hoping at least something gets understood ^.^ -the fact I haven't called myself town 10000000 times and can actually accept people investigating me (simply look at D1 in the newbiegame... where I was topscumread for half the D1... I indeed consider it welcome) -the fact I tried to get absolutely 0 credit from a definite NU lynch while pushing it and trying to get anything reasonable out of NU instead of mindlessly killing him... He just failed horribly ^.^ -the fact that I actively lobbied for an SL kill all of D2 -the fact that I didn't want to mindlessly murder SL, when there was still a valid explanation of how his play makes sense as town(and would lose the game), instead of magically flipping my views magically at EoN as soon as there was a CC - the fact that SL used a completely bullshit explanation instead of the more thought out I had already posted... - the fact that I've "carelessly scumslipped" 2 ingamedays before the end - the fact that my explanation for it was simply was what it was, instead some perfectly crafted answer, like e.g. TT seemingly expected Sorry... I suck at those... I still have no idea why people do those. But some people love the "I WOULD NEVER DO THAT AS SCUM" wifom ^^ | ||
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On December 13 2016 04:18 Holyflare wrote: This + spoilered quote is damning evidence. There's nothing magical about it and there wasn't a single chance he was vt. Then why did you call him "certain town" at night, repeatedly? It was you who was first to do that, almost instantly after his claim... (And you converted me from my "trolololo, what a shitclaim" into "this could actually be a VT-play"....) The only thing that changed from night to day way that he didn't die. But given that 3 players actively promoted the idea in the thread that he was possibly a VT instead of JK... scum could have went with that logic too and leave VT!SL alive. Especially when there was a good chance SL getting lynched at day after he did not die, as he was scumspected by pretty much everyone. | ||
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And also, if at night you thought he could be VT or JK... why did you even promote this idea? If you thought he was more likely a blue, you wanted to take the shot away from him... Scum not shooting him should have been your target... If you believed he was more likely a VT trying to bait a bullet... why hint it to scum? | ||
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On December 13 2016 04:54 Holyflare wrote: Because I don't give a shit about playing tactically as town and just say what's on my mind. We've been through this. I still have a hard time seeing a TL vet who is obsessed about his winrate doing that... But I guess we can have Onegu as judge here (if hes online) | ||
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I figured that part... the question is "does he not at all use "tactical play" as town" | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:03 Onegu wrote: HF gets town points here also because he didnt vote when I told him to. ??? I guess I won't understand what you two suddenly have with each other... But I would still like details | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:06 Holyflare wrote: This is where mahrgell is confirmed mafia to onegu and vice versa. Why? As I said earlier, I considered Onegu pretty much modconfirmed town... | ||
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If thats your conclusion... Why do you suddenly call yourself townconfirmed by DF unvoting? | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:12 Onegu wrote: I dont know what I think here.... If you would know how fast my head is spinning right now... | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:18 darthfoley wrote: Oh I'm also town because I've been very paranoid about Mahrgell being mafia way before anyone else seriously considered it. (I know I said I wasn't voting him earlier). Now for me it's between Onegu and Mahrgell. A few points on Mahrgell that gave me pause 1. I found HF vs. mahrgell for like 2 days to be a bit manufactured in the sense that it wasted time, filled filter and didn't really add to the game. yes, I asked to be replaced out of the game, because it was manufactured... lol 2. I have a personal beef with the sheer amount of WoTs mahr has provided even when I and other people have called him out. I made the point near the beginning of the game that excessive WoT and shitty formatting discourages people from actually reading. I can think of a reason this could be beneficial to someone... I think my clear mind wots were way more readable than my more emotional hurried ones... But I think you saw me in the newbiegame... Shlog was always butchering me for it in teachingQT... I tried to hit enter occassionally... But yes.. I still suck at it... But I certainly didnt make intentionally hard to read stuff ^^ 3. The way he saw the SL vs. Rels JK thing was so opposite from how I saw it. He pushed the VT!SL thing a lot and said we should totally ignore it. Which still doesn't make sense. I still believe Rels claiming preEoN was terrible. But we will probably have to agree to disagree. 4. No ones pointed this out, but SL's read of mahr went from town --> scum near his death iirc. It's weird tat people give mahr town cred for pushing SL when he wanted initially to keep SL alive I defended SL suring night1, because I thought this was too stupid of a scumplay... I pushed him pretty much entire D2... And I defended the possibility of him being VT until he started posting and posted nonsense 5. He keeps saying it's between HF and DF yet is stuck on everything HF says and hasn't pushed me at all. It started to feel like he had the votes and vote timing with my vote so he didn't want to anger me and lose the 2:2 advantage. you realize that if it is between you two (and did not consider Onegu at all I have the last vote? It is me who can last minute change... | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:20 darthfoley wrote: Wait why is Onegu modconfirmed??? SL posted a gif towards Onegu after his death, midst of D3... I actually asked the mods about how to handle it, after emp used it to defend onegu and attack me with it. And afaik he wasnt the only one who townread Onegu for that one post alone. If this was intentional to give this kind of towncred to Onegu, I think we have more urgent shit to discuss in postgame than the result to Onegu. So for me it was always "Onegu is town, and if he is not I flip shit in postgame". But I believe somehow in sportsmanship and SL not doing that with that intention, but just because he was funny (like others who are not part of the game and felt the need to post gifs midgame... there were two similar incidents earlier and obv mods didn't bother to stop gif interruptions ) | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:25 darthfoley wrote: Like mahrgell was almost(?) universally town read when LS died. I had town reads from a lot of people except SL, maybe EC? Can't remember HF and I shared tin foils on LS. Again I go back to the point that his death doesn't make sense I was always discredited by HF at this point.... | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:25 darthfoley wrote: Like mahrgell was almost(?) universally town read when LS died. I had town reads from a lot of people except SL, maybe EC? Can't remember HF and I shared tin foils on LS. Again I go back to the point that his death doesn't make sense I actually thought that LS was the blue there and indeed expected to die there for my reaction to SLs claim... (if you feel like reading wots... my EoN wot actually pointed that out, without explicitly mentioning it... but yes, I expected to die, and LS was one of the few I didn't write much about but considered super towny...) There were 2 people who doubted me: I snapdiscarded it... and was later confirmed by HF... And LS who calmly pointed out that SL was doing this before... | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:33 Onegu wrote: Did you ever bring this up in thread before this point because I dont remember it... No, because I wanted reactions on me asking others about you. Similarly I only cared for HFs answers at night and used more as confirmations than anything else. Additionally I don't think oog stuff should be discussed ingame, why I also went ham at NU in the newbeegame in ObsQT after my death and in postgame.... | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:33 darthfoley wrote: Which is a completely bullshit point considering The Godfather is useless after cop dies. That should be obvious How often do I have to repeat it: I talked about D1/N1 SL bussed his teammate but still was universally scumread N1 because of his "strange play". The cop was NOT dead yet. Everything after the cop was dead made sense... | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:36 mahrgell wrote: No, because I wanted reactions on me asking others about you. Similarly I only cared for HFs answers at night and used yours more as confirmations than anything else. Additionally I don't think oog stuff should be discussed ingame, why I also went ham at NU in the newbeegame in ObsQT after my death and in postgame.... ebwop, bolded | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:37 mahrgell wrote: How often do I have to repeat it: I talked about D1/N1 SL bussed his teammate but still was universally scumread N1 because of his "strange play". The cop was NOT dead yet. Everything after the cop was dead made sense... Btw... you used that point in your own defenses earlier... Where you told us how never Goon DF would be selected to be the saviour of the team.... and now you discard it for me? | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:39 Onegu wrote: He is saying he asked the mods about it and because of either what they said or something made him think I was town. But we shouldnt be talking about this because it is mod stuff that was sent in a PM to a player... No, I made that conclusion simply from my believe that SL would not resort to such tactics to help his mate... So I considered it a Scum->Town slip. Is my believe in a minimum standard of fair play unjustified on TL? (Saying yes means have to consider you scum again) | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:43 Holyflare wrote: Mahrgell mentioning his mod pm. Wouldn't need to do that as mafia, he's used bull shit to poe you as mafia. I already said, that I didn't draw my conclusion from the PM. My conclusion was purely based on the belief of fairplay I only asked how to handle it. | ||
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On December 13 2016 05:48 darthfoley wrote: Is this f4 really going to be decided based on mod shit? Nope. | ||
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Artanis had told me that I could interpret the gif as I wanted and use it as vaid game strat... but mentioning the modpm dind't belong there and completely offtracked HF, it seems... | ||
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On December 13 2016 06:01 Onegu wrote: IT WAS A SCUMSLIP! Tbh: no, it was exactly what I detailed in the thread. An attempt to be funny after I didn't interpret HFs post as he later explained. And the timing was indeed coincidence. | ||
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Don't expect any teamtalk... What brought me that far was the complete lack of scum teamplay... And if you think the conversation with SL fakeclaiming was scripted... nope... I was copletely caught by surprise and thought just WTF... | ||
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On December 13 2016 06:08 darthfoley wrote: Also can you explain your kill reasoning etc cuz I'm interested? Koshi because SL said Koshi and ignored me. LS because we thought he was blue and he called out SL as fakeclaimer... We originally wanted to kill Rels there... -.- | ||
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Your THE SECRET IS IN SLS FILTER!!! HF FOLLOW ME IF YOU WANNA SURVIVE!!! killed me. | ||
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On December 13 2016 06:13 Holyflare wrote: I don't even know what gif thinf you're talking about http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=26220731 Emp later also correctly identified it as SL thinking I had resigned after that "scumslip" | ||
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On December 13 2016 06:23 darthfoley wrote: so mafia really did uber bus NU D1 Anyone have a link to the obs QT? SL did, yes. I tried to get him out, asking him for reads and shit instead of defense... Sadly he was kinda paralyzed giving me no chance to get off him. Then I even jumped Rels over shit few minutes before deadline... But except HF this didn't get any traction... | ||
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And mad respect for not shitting up the thread... | ||
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Without it... Not sure what would have happened... Maybe the same, when he would have figured why I eliminated Onegu from my poe. But there was enough time for votes to swing any way.... So no, I don't think that was a win.... | ||
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On December 13 2016 07:17 Holyflare wrote: And that's why it's forbidden in the rules to talk about mod related actions. Otherwise I could have explained that it was just me and rels in the thread day 2 and artanis posted rule clarifications that only rels could have asked for which confirmed him town since nobody else was around. well... And you were wrong.... It was me who asked and caused Artanis to post... | ||
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How is the theoretical endgame JK vs 1 scum handled? It is voterace at day, so skip to night, but at night nobody dies... rinse and repeat. The newbiegame used a "when winning is unavoidable" wincon, which would have not worked here. Elsewhere I saw that some sites seem to use a "50% scum = scumwin" rule, but not sure this is considered fair^^ | ||
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On December 13 2016 07:44 Holyflare wrote: You asked artanis whether mafia could send a nk in the 30 minute silence period while being mafia? Yes. We scum had always assumed the silence period being binding. The rules were formulated quite clear. Only you repeatedly spouted this stuff so I wanted a clarification. | ||
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