|
On December 31 2015 23:32 GlowingBear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 23:17 nooniansoong wrote:
@GB if you think the scumslip is a legitimate why do you have a weak townread on shape? I don't believe in scumslips, I've quoted that because I find hard to believe Onegu would see a slip from fidei but wouldn't from Shapelog. To add to that, he said "then shape is Mafia too" but just forgot about that and now he is only scum reading me and Fidei
I didn't actually play in Nutcracker, but seeing that Onegu didn't play in Nutcracker do you think it's possible or believeable the Shapelog scumslip would have just gone over his head?
|
On January 01 2016 14:36 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 23:32 GlowingBear wrote:On December 31 2015 23:17 nooniansoong wrote:
@GB if you think the scumslip is a legitimate why do you have a weak townread on shape? I don't believe in scumslips, I've quoted that because I find hard to believe Onegu would see a slip from fidei but wouldn't from Shapelog. To add to that, he said "then shape is Mafia too" but just forgot about that and now he is only scum reading me and Fidei I didn't actually play in Nutcracker, but seeing that Onegu didn't play in Nutcracker do you think it's possible or believeable the Shapelog scumslip would have just gone over his head?
Wait, ignore post 691. I stand corrected. Onegu smurfed that game. That completely negates my last question. That slip/criteria for slip probably should have jumped out at him since it was a game he played in.
|
On December 31 2015 06:56 nooniansoong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 03:25 nooniansoong wrote:lemme summarize reasoning for voting fidei real quick. Several posts that are long and have nothign to do with scumhunting. Talking about past games, talking about the virtues of policy lynches, etc. In his big reads post, his scumreads are summaries of me and gigas' play put into a scummy light. He latches on to some of my trolly posts and doesn't stop to think "why would scum make such overtly scummy posts"? On December 30 2015 23:27 Fidei86 wrote:Scum
Gigya - He has a filter almost totally devoid of reads. His one TR is Irish (#214) but at the same time in his post at #192 he actually says that as Irish is experienced, the post could have been faked. ???. He also suspects GB for his "matter of fact town read", even though he agrees with it? The only thing keeping this from moving into policy is that he has a couple of posts where he talks about non-game stuff (#225, #228). If you have time to do that, you have time to play as well. This is how newbie mafia play, imo.
Noon/Kush - This whole filter makes me want to facepalm. He TRs Scott for saying he could "possibly jump" on someone else's read. WTF? I just don't understand this read at all - mafia are the ones who are going to hedge and give weak reads, not town. He then goes into a day-long "woe is me, D1 is so hard" stupor, which is (a) totally destructive to town, and (b) effective at hiding his thoughts on the game. Having said that, he then seems to basically mindlessly sheep GB onto his read onto Kmatt. I also don't follow his point about NM and KMatt whiteknighting, since a bunch of other people also came into the thread to say that timestamp analysis wasn't helpful. He then also prods a bunch of people into giving reads, despite the fact that he himself has given almost no content.
##Vote -- Gigya
Looking at this case - the Onegu bashing/policy lynches is something Fidei has done as both alignments and in pre and post-games. So to me that is NAI.
Regarding the reads on GigyaS, "a filter that is almost entirely devoid of reads".....for someone that has been relatively inactive that could go either way. The bolded that I have for GigyaS read looks reasonable enough to scum for unless you are arguing that he's taking those posts out of context in which case I will go back and mark those pages to read around the filters.
The Noon read is actually slightly more concerning to me because the "possibly jump" part I think you even disclaimed that it was a shitty read/criteria (paraphrasing) and it would seem to me that mafia would try and hide that.
"Woe is me/Day 1".....I remember you getting off a great scumread in Dark Tournament on the player both DoYouHas and myself eventually got lynched (Half the Sky) and considering Fidei was also in that game - I replaced in, so I know -, do you think it's completely unreasonable for him to scumread you when you were clearly more productive in that game, contrasting to here where you go for the straight policy lynch?
Sheeping GB onto KMatt? Wait.....didn't you argue against that? Or at least accuse GB of misinterpreting?
|
On December 30 2015 23:27 Fidei86 wrote:
Noon/Kush - This whole filter makes me want to facepalm. He TRs Scott for saying he could "possibly jump" on someone else's read. WTF? I just don't understand this read at all - mafia are the ones who are going to hedge and give weak reads, not town. He then goes into a day-long "woe is me, D1 is so hard" stupor, which is (a) totally destructive to town, and (b) effective at hiding his thoughts on the game. Having said that, he then seems to basically mindlessly sheep GB onto his read onto Kmatt. I also don't follow his point about NM and KMatt whiteknighting, since a bunch of other people also came into the thread to say that timestamp analysis wasn't helpful. He then also prods a bunch of people into giving reads, despite the fact that he himself has given almost no content.
Can you explain this? (bolded) If you read Noon's filter carefully you will see subsequent pushback.
|
6am. I'll pick up later today.
|
Catching up on the rest of the thread, though I just read through that wall of text, my god that was painful. I disagree with the summary comment from GigyaS because that was anything but. I know people solely summarising is generally a scummy tactic, but he is providing interpretations.
I'm looking most specifically at how KMatt portrayed some of GB's attacks on him. Some of his context IS off compared to the way a lot of us are seeing things, but I wouldn't expect a newbie to understand what reaction tests are for instance.
I'm also going to say newb town on that.
|
Onegu still pushing the OMGUS/"shouldn't be metareading him" route on GB and Fidei scumslip? But nothing new on Shapelog?
Also Fidei (post 715) not denying the scumslip does not make him mafia. He just might not be arsed to debate it more than he already has, pretty sure he responded regarding the difference in interpretation himself.
Could vote Onegu. Still reading....
|
On January 03 2016 00:42 Fidei86 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 23:58 nooniansoong wrote:
Fidei.I didn't read it. I skimmed it and it confirms my newb town read.
Yes it's aggressive in tone which I think is town coming from a newer player. He seems to believe what he's saying.
Except town does do all those things he said town doesn't do. So I don't think it's a good case. I don't think being aggressive in reads is necessarily newb town, especially when that townie has previously been kinda meek. Ehhhh. I really want to hear from Shining and Alex (NM) before I update all my reads. I'll quickly read GB's filter a bit to see if I can get a handle on it. That said, the fact that Onegu is so happy to jump onto GB for literally the flimsiest reasons I've ever seen make me more sure that Onegu is scum, which makes it unlikely GB is with him. But, associative reads, I get it.
This might be a shit way of me explaining this, so if I need to break it down further, shout -
Newb town gets scumread once by player A.
Newb town exhibits a calm tone to getting scumread.
Player A townreads him.
Player A scumreads him again based on some criteria that makes little sense to him/looks flimsy (how other players think of it is irrelevant to his POV).
Player A proceeds to do other things that make little sense to him.
Newb town exhibits more aggro tone towards Player A in case.
Do you think the change in tone is unwarranted/unreasonable for a townie perspective based on these events?
I don't.
|
My take on GB, going through his filter.
Points that make GB scummy
(1) Engagement with KMatt was poor when he initially scumread him and early on I felt he didn't do anything with his reaction test (or whatever it is) that got any alignment indicative information on Shapelog (the only other person interacting at the time), etc. This I thought was scummy from GB.
(2) This post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/500060-newbie-student-mafia-xviii?page=31#615
Kush voting with Onegu was after Onegu gave one reason for voting Fidei and Kush at that time gave a separate reason for voting Fidei. So I don't think this is unreasonable and it looks like you are taking the situation out of context.
(3) The post on killing GigyaS is bad because D1 nightkills yield little information, like I did in a few of the games I've played you need multiple nights of NK WIFOM analysis or NK WIFOM analysis with something else to more reasonably go after someone.
(4) Stance on mderg. From what I can tell mderg has posted in and out of the thread since GB has made his initial scumread on him and GB seems pretty content to call him mafia without (from what I can tell) any re-evaluation.
(5) Related to (4), hard stance on Onegu in nightphase - he's saying that Onegu cannot possibly believe what he's saying/double standards on him and Shapelog but then he takes a read based on LESS RELIABLE INFORMATION (NK WIFOM from night 1) and wants to lynch GigyaS over what from his perspective should be MORE RELIABLE INFORMATION (Onegu cannot believe what he's possibly saying).
The problem with this is that both GB and Onegu are calling each other mafia, Onegu is straightaway lynching GB, GB isn't lynching Onegu straightaway though, so I'm trying to figure out if this could be the surface of double bussing or what.
|
Also the reason that I'm saying that night 1 NK WIFOM is unreliable is because I just came out of a game (Dark Tournament) where the scumteam purposely tried to WIFOM with the nightkills and in other games where NK WIFOM does uncover/indicate correctly mafia, it takes multiple nights of that to really sort out.
GigyaS could be mafia but it's going to take me more than NK wifom from a single night to vote him is what I'm saying. Town should be looking at things that amount to more than WIFOM.
|
GB -
Re: (4) I didn't say you were scumreading mderg for lurking. I am saying that he is providing new content (re-entering thread, that wasn't supposed to be a lurking context) and then you are not re-evaluating him on that.
On (4) you still think his approach after his latest bit of posting is scummy?
|
Reading kush/Fidei filters again....
|
Getting an overall town feeling from Noon's filter, particularly with the Shapelog/Onegu scumslip discussion and re-eval of Fidei, GigyaS and KMatt.
Moving on...
|
On January 03 2016 00:55 Fidei86 wrote:
Only two points on GB:
1. His early reads were mostly town reads and were short, but that fits in with him being in another game. Kmatt puts a lot of emphasis on that in his case, but it's NAI if anything. In my mind it's more towny than anything as he would find it harder to walk back if he needed for a ML.
2. My experience of playing GB is that he struggles to maintain calm when he plays as scum. In the game we played together, he was much more acerbic and less flexible with his reads. He's different here - note #736 where he re-evaluates on Kmatt.
GB is an experienced player who probably could change up his meta, but I think he's probably town. He's not the lynch today for sure.
What do you think about GB's voting GigyaS and then Onegu after I explained my issues with him? And especially voting GigyaS after going hard on Onegu from the perspective that Onegu couldn't possibly believe what he is saying night 1?
Another point against GB is that in spite of him being confident that mderg is scum (not so much the last post, that was after the fact but I'm referring to post 735), still why GigyaS over either of those two? How does this make sense from a town perspective?
|
On January 03 2016 02:40 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2016 01:45 mderg wrote:On January 03 2016 01:41 GlowingBear wrote:
Mderg, what's your read on Koshi? Koshi is always town. He's not in this game, though. Koshi is always scum and should be lynched day 1 because he is more cancer than I am
???????????
Do I even want to know?
|
On January 03 2016 02:54 NocturneMage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2016 00:55 Fidei86 wrote:
Only two points on GB:
1. His early reads were mostly town reads and were short, but that fits in with him being in another game. Kmatt puts a lot of emphasis on that in his case, but it's NAI if anything. In my mind it's more towny than anything as he would find it harder to walk back if he needed for a ML.
2. My experience of playing GB is that he struggles to maintain calm when he plays as scum. In the game we played together, he was much more acerbic and less flexible with his reads. He's different here - note #736 where he re-evaluates on Kmatt.
GB is an experienced player who probably could change up his meta, but I think he's probably town. He's not the lynch today for sure. What do you think about GB's voting GigyaS and then Onegu after I explained my issues with him? And especially voting GigyaS after going hard on Onegu from the perspective that Onegu couldn't possibly believe what he is saying night 1? Another point against GB is that in spite of him being confident that mderg is scum (not so much the last post, that was after the fact but I'm referring to post 735), still why GigyaS over either of those two? How does this make sense from a town perspective?
EBWOP - he's voted Onegu since, but at the time he voted GigyaS.
|
Alright, read and re-read Fidei's filter. 705 and 706 seem towny to me, I know mderg disputed 706 but I think the overall "probably town" conclusion comes from him weighing other attributes of Kush/Noon's filter against a point that is probably null (town or scum defending him). It didn't look off to me. It probably would have looked weird if he'd have said kush is a strong town read, but that's not how it was described.
I am curious to hear his responses to my questions re: 737/742, although it seems like he's townreading GB based on meta. Even ignoring the read on KMatt, his reads on mderg/Onegu have been constant, and I know Onegu is disputing the read on him.
|
Getting food and some quality time, but will revisit Shapelog/mderg filters in detail when I return.
|
Plowing through Shapelog's filter now, but I'll add this in the meantime:
On Onegu
Right now, I think Onegu and GB are both mafia for independent reasons, but I'm having a real tough go at which one I actually want to lynch. Both are voting each other and GB's initial hesitancy before voting Onegu made me want to think he's protecting the roleblocker or a godfather in the situation they are both mafia but yes I realise this is unflipped association. And now that he's voting Onegu that makes me pause because he would have put up greater resistance to that instead of actually voting him.
|
From a non-associative standpoint, his push on GB is almost purely OMGUS whereas the argument that GB is making against him is that Onegu is saying something he possibly couldn't believe. Whereas Onegu is countering with GB is mafia for trying to metaread him, and making a read like that isn't a metaread. That's just an argument for why Onegu is legitimately mafia.
From a non-associative standpoint, Onegu is still paying no mind to Shapelog even though he said earlier "he's probably scum" based on the same scumslip criteria so this could also be very well a soft push and a complete lack of followup. I had reason for a scumread on Shapelog earlier in the game as he was playing a very reactive game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
