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On November 03 2015 22:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 22:37 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 03 2015 22:34 Half the Sky wrote:On November 03 2015 22:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 03 2015 22:20 Half the Sky wrote:On November 03 2015 22:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I would still like you HtS to explain why kitaman is town. Pretty sure I did through the course of things, but sure will do again. Basically I had gone though his filter and I'm seeing points where he's driving the discussion pretty constructively. #455 is a good example of this to a response from Xatalos that would appear somewhat worded vaguely "like solving the game" where he's asking him to substantiate his read. He did the same thing to me in #458, the followups were there re: Superbia. The other posts that I liked were 569 and anything he mentioned after the nominations went through. The responses to Xatalos re: Superbia were spot on - the latter was not engaged constantly with the thread and from what I can tell those questions would appear to me as trying to figure Xata's alignment since he's obviously said he's not sold on him. As you seem to be relying heavily on meta -- at least here on Xatalos and Superbia (basically the whole read of yours on both of them is based on meta), why are you not relying on meta on kitaman. A couple of questions regarding this: - Do you think kitaman is incapable of making those kinda posts as scum? - Do you think kitaman's play does not make sense as scum (see my post towards him a couple of pages ago)? - Do you think kitaman has hard reads and is taking hard stances? If so, who would you say he thinks is scum and why? First question, admittedly no. Actually early on, I was pressuing him because I wasn't seeing town Kita (read: meta). Kita is a capable player as mafia. Quite. I am aware of that. I'll look at your post again a couple of pages ago but if I recall the right post - I would not take the position that Xatalos is exclusively mafia for not having any mafia reads but at the same time, he's not the first person in TL to scumread someone for not having any scumreads. When I was reading his filter - did he explicitly say "X is (alignment), Y is (this alignment)," no he didn't and if that's what you are looking for, I can understand why you are scumreading him. But in going through his posts on various people, it was pretty easy to tell for me from context who he was townreading or not as strongly. I know I even commented on that somewhere earlier in this game too. So if people want to reject this team for that reason, that's fine. If people want to fear read Kita, I get that. I am basically trying to say that he scumreads Xatalos for "not giving out scumreads" when Xatalos actually has a good portion of townreads based on quite logical reasons. In contrary to this, kitaman has only one real read, which is that i am town. Like i couldn't give any less fucks about this "now this guy looks a bit better" or "now this guy looks a bit worse" and yes, it kinda implies you think something of their alignment. So does Xatalos' posting. So saying kitaman's posting does imply that and his "case" on Xatalos (=Xatalos' posting doesn't imply that) is just aa bunch of bullshit.
I'm assuming that post was aimed at me - fine. Like I said if you wanted him to explicitly say that, that's completely fine to vote him down. And his post on Xatalos like I said is flawed in the sense that townies can try to find townies first.
And I don't think that's even what Kita was trying to say (bolded the sentence that doesn't make sense) - he was scumreading him for not having scumreads, not because his reads were vague. I don't think I'm misunderstanding there.
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On November 03 2015 22:50 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 22:49 Half the Sky wrote:
Shockey, I think you posted the wrong thing.
That's Kita casing Xata's reads, not Kita's own reads. Do you think he read that post or the thread closely? I mean like if he did read that post closely and misread it maybe... just maybe... it would strike him odd that kitaman scumreads himself in that post. :p
Probably not.
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On November 03 2015 22:37 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 22:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:
ShoCkeyy do you agree you, kitaman and Rels should go to the first mission? Yea sure why not, I have a better feeling about kitaman and rels than I do of you...
Kita's getting discussed to death now, but Rels....how?
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So Xatalos, you're after me, assuming this team is a write-off (seeing as only one person is voting to pass it), I'd say nominate yourself and rayn for sure. I'd also say to vote me, but if you don't trust me, then I'd say see what happens the rest of this cycle and then tomorrow (when the torch passes to you) and then make the decision.
I know where rayn is coming from with Artanis/SL, but I agree with you that Artanis could be either alignment and sicklucker saying you're spy for omgus-like reasons....I don't know about the latter.
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On November 03 2015 22:58 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2015 22:54 Half the Sky wrote:On November 03 2015 22:50 raynpelikoneet wrote:On November 03 2015 22:49 Half the Sky wrote:
Shockey, I think you posted the wrong thing.
That's Kita casing Xata's reads, not Kita's own reads. Do you think he read that post or the thread closely? I mean like if he did read that post closely and misread it maybe... just maybe... it would strike him odd that kitaman scumreads himself in that post. :p Probably not. What does this mean? Like if you read someone's post properly (let's assume you can misread and think those are kitaman's reads) and actually think about the motivation behind the reads and the post, you come across the sentence that says "kitaman - scum", that doesn't make you ask yourself "wtf"? 
????
Probably not as in he didn't read either the post or thread closely.
Not disputing that.
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On November 03 2015 23:09 Xatalos wrote:
There's still time to decide the next team. If we go for the full-town team, then sure, I'll most likely include rayn... And we'll have to decide the third member. But rayn gave good reasons for proposing the full-scum (2/3 scum) team - lots of pressure on the whole team - and there are additional reasons having to do with miscommunications within the scumteam and such, so it might be better to propose that next.
The only thing I cannot follow from that strategically is how do you progress from throwing multiple scum on one team - let's say if they fuck up on their end and all pass the mission - then what? Still scrap that team or how do you know it won't mess the townies up as in someone's bound to make the argument "well we passed, how do you argue multiple of us are scum" IDK.
I have to get back to work but I'll just re-read again.
Like I said, having done this in real life, I've never had a situation where resistance used a mission to ferret out someone who we knew was scum so something probably isn't clicking...
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Rels, that has to be one of the worst posts I've ever read in my time on TL mafia. I normally don't make those types of statements but what you've said shows you've never played Resistance before, or you're trying to very seriously reach for a way to scumread me.
First, none of what you said has made me mafia. Zero. From RL resistance, there are situations where you don't want to have yourself on the team. There is nothing wrong with pushing to get the team you have accepted (even without yourself on it) provided you have the right thinking - yes you are obviously most sure of yourself, there's no denying that, but if you put someone else on, a good town will take you to task to make sure you aren't putting a scumbuddy on. I am not oblivious to that fact.
If you're town, which I am, and there's a group that doesn't trust you on the team, the only way you're going to show that you are town or even get people to remotely trust you is to go scumhunting and put up three people that you've done some reliable legwork on, show you don't have an agenda as to who you are putting up. There's nothing wrong with swapping yourself out for people that are more universally townread provided you have a basis for doing so. If you cannot sell yourself for being on the team for whatever reason or if people are less sure of you as opposed to others then that is one of a few arguments to not have yourself on a team. If I want to test out a group of people (not the case here as it's the first mission) to try and PoE someone that's another reason to leave yourself off since you know what you are.
Is it suboptimal? In some cases, yes. Is it risky? Of course, you're most sure of yourself. Does it make someone mafia? LOL no.
It's not rocket science. If people can't see what you're working with then that's on the rest of town (just as how a lynched townie and the town shame some proportion of blame).
If anyone wants to argue that I do have an agenda in who I am putting up or my reads are malicious, etc etc that's different but that isn't the argument you are making.
My concern isn't really looking good - I've said at least twice now that if my team fails, big deal. My concern is being transparent enough to be read as town and if I can't get on teams, make sure the right people do. *yawn*
rayn is fine asking me to provide multiple reads. I saw nothing wrong with that. It will be critical for future missions when we need more people.
And once my teams were posted anyone can read the thread, follow up that no one is going to see it get passed and there's nothing wrong or mafia about talking about the next team and utilising your time so that the first mission is assembled right. I can't change my lineup and the discussion on Kita (between rayn/Xata/myself) as to why Kita wasn't a safe pick was fine as discussions on the next team. There is no reason that in of itself makes anyone mafia. It is entirely possible that in this next 24 hours I may find a reason to doubt my own picks. (Less time to decide the teams (24 hours) means that the chances of the team being flawed is higher than our standard 48 hour timeframes to lynch mafia in our normal games.)
The first mission is really important to get right if you know the mechanics of resistance, there were 7h left in the phase, thread isn't as collectively active as it could be at points, so I'm working with what I have. If I want to think ahead to the next phase, there's no reason that makes anyone mafia, me or whoever.
Maybe you have never played Resistance, but wow, I didn't think you'd bottom out like that, but somehow you managed to prove me wrong.
Even rayn said earlier that there are situations you don't want to have yourself on the team so I'm surprised (unless I missed it) you haven't jumped on that point at the time it was made.
Not surprised though, considering you are likely a spy. *yawn*
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Something that you are completely ignoring is the lessened times to put the teams together. RL aside for me yesterday, I had not much to work with and at least a few others mentioned the same thing because of the collective inactivity. Anyways...
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On November 04 2015 01:55 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 01:38 Rels wrote:On November 04 2015 01:33 Xatalos wrote:
Rels, could you expand on your Kita/shockey townreads? One sentence each since I'm leaving in a few minutes: Kita makes sense and bring good points. He did that as scum too in a game where he wrecked us; but contrary to that, he's attacking people that are townread by a majority of the town: Superbia and you at the time, rayn just now. Shockey, I can't see any scum motivation to play the way he does; having odd reads that completely differs from the thread sentiment, and defending them to the point of getting scumread for it. Kita only attacked scummy players in that game then, or what? Didn't you just say that he makes sense as either alignment..? I think there's a fair scum motivation for pushing "odd" reads to manipulate the mission team selections..
Well if towny players act scummy it makes it easier to push them as a bad guy be it this game or regular mafia. *shrug*
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On November 04 2015 02:00 Xatalos wrote:
Hmm.. Well, I'd say it's not 100% good to always include yourself on missions, but it's still a bit odd that you were more concerned about having an approved team than a team with the highest chances of success (meaning that you'd be included, and rather trusting your reads over the consensus)?
Here's the thing. Not everyone had the same reads on everyone. I could include myself with say, Superbia/Xata/whoever, and even if they trust me and don't trust the remaining team members, the team won't pass. You can have whatever reads you have on people but if you cannot sell them or if the people can't sell themselves, the team won't pass. Maybe I'm not being articulate on this, and maybe I'm making it harder for myself but at the end I kept myself on. Still it comes down to the argument that it doesn't make me a spy and the problem with Rels' argument is that he's trying to classify this behaviour as exclusively mafia. That's mainly what I'm trying to say.
And I made sure my thoughts were out there too because I have nothing to hide. Rels trying to classify that as mafia motivated is hilariously bad.
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Regarding Kita's post - and this draws a caution in his play as he's a good mafia player, the post where he talks about general team assembly strategy is something I'm more used to coming out of RL resistance. However it is a post that can be made as either alignment by any player who is familiar enough with the game.
I said before that I don't understand rayn's alternative strategy because it deviates from how I'm used to RL play. Ignoring numbers I would think it's easier, much easier to find 2-3 townreads and get the first mission passed, which is the easiest - it requires the least number of people, etc. I also proposed a counterpoint/what-if scenario relying on the scumteam
Based on rayn's first cycle play I am still inclined to think he's town. But isolating the scumreads I think is much harder let alone put them all on a single mission team. If you mess up even one townie on that first team, you make it harder for yourself when you need more town/resistance on larger teams. That is the part that seems counterintuitive to me.
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EBWOP - I also proposed a counterpoint/what-if scenario relying on the scumteam failing - what if they all pass for some stupid reason?
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I just know that in RL resistance as a spy I have passed the first mission and then failed later missions - my question to rayn is how is he going to get around this possibility regardless of who/what his reads/team recs are? I read the post where he discusses Kita/Rels/Shockey and I'm not clear on the failsafe there. Am I missing something? Or was it more apparent in another post?
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Going to wrap up things at work, head off to capoeira, dinner - I may or may not be able to attend to this when I get home. But will try.
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Fair play Xata. I'm just making the assumption that most people in this game have played some form of it IRL so I'm not sure people wouldn't already be aware of possible spy strategies.
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Work is burying me today (if I'm lucky I'll finish around 2100 today) so quick comments for now.
1 Above team is fine by me. Would vote yes. No issues with any of Xata's explanations on his team selection.
2 I will vote down any team with Rels on it (and almost certainly will be ignoring him as mafia onwards until something to the contrary jumps at me) assuming we are sticking to the conventional approach of nailing the first mission with three town.
3 I passed/scrapped my team to buy more time.
4 Artanis I think you need to re-read my filter. Unless I'm misunderstanding, you had a fear read on me before, not the other way around. my stance on your alignment is null because your RL situation is NAI and I needed more content to re-evaluate you. Seeing as you've posted more content, I'll re-evaluate after work.
5 Regarding the comments on defensiveness my argument is that for someone normally considered a very good town player Rels is scum reading me for things that do not make me Mafia. The basis for his position is actually pretty poor IMO with the caveat he has never played the game so this could explain (if somehow he's actually town) why he's seeing some things the way he is.
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I'll do my best if I can buy any time today to pop in and comment on key posts but otherwise it's looking like 2130 or later.
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EBWOP - forgot one point, obviously voting down any team with Shockey as well.
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Scumteam for me is Rels, Shockey and third TBD.
As for the association thing, at least when I play in real life, you use deductive reasoning from the most concrete evidence, that being based on whether people upvoted or vetoed the team put up for mission and whether the mission was sabotaged.
IRL we usually query anyone that votes no on any mission team.
If a mission has been sabotaged resistance try and work backwards based on previous missions as well as if there is any recollection of whether certain people on the failed missions upvoted certain missions or not.
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EPT
