[T][M] Resistance V - Section 31 - Page 23

On November 15 2015 02:01 kitaman27 wrote:


I was under the impression that the host decided the rules, not some random comment from rayn.

On November 15 2015 05:36 sicklucker wrote:


im pretty sure im vivax's strongest townread now and its very logical. Do you live in paris?

On November 15 2015 06:49 sicklucker wrote:


well if rels is mafia (he probably ) then hes not gonna go. well you got me guys! hes gonna try to position himself to get on the 5th mission

On November 15 2015 07:26 sicklucker wrote:
we should all vote no to this and see who votes yes. ill put up pretty much the same team next anyway. more info the better and artanis can still be scum. Dont say you agree if you agree ill vote no

On November 15 2015 07:31 sicklucker wrote:
Like i just want more information. please dont prevote like me I just had to because if im the only no vote it will probably pass. If the info gained favors artanis ill probably put him up myself

On November 03 2015 15:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:
kitaman here is my problem with you atm. You don't actually have a stance on anything until it becomes / when it is "relevant". In hindsight that looks "good" since you are discussing important topics in the game. But if you are scum you only need to include yourself into the team and you can easily call the other two people town and "look good", and when there is an all town team you only have to cast doubt on one player and again -- you can easily call the other two people town.

So here is what i see has happened:
- HtS nominates herself/rayn/Superbia
- you become anti-super, as you yourself put it
- HtS wants to swap Superbia to Xatalos
- you become "anti-Xatalos", and not only that, you even say "maybe i judged Superbia too harsly early on"......

The problem here is that it seems almost too convenient, the topics you discuss. You never really discuss HtS (which is understandable as she is the leader -- and you want yourself into the team). You never really discuss me, just call me town (which makes sense since you couldn't call me scum anyways if you're scum).

So basically, if you are scum here, you take the only possible route you can -- or rather, the route that gives you the best chance of getting scum into the team (if we assume HtS is town here -- and i find it almost impossible you two are scum together). Not only that, you don't actually have any reads, which is kinda funny since you call Xatalos out for that exact reason (when Xatalos actually DOES have reads -- you don't). You have called me town, i assume you think HtS is town, and Superbia and Xatalos are "not trustworthy enough". Isn't it a bit hypocritical to entertain a scenario where Xatalos is not town - or cast doubt on him - for "not giving reads" when you yourself haven't really given any reads?

This is exactly what i was talking about and this is basically how i usually find scum in Resistance (players who are good). People who don't talk about the game as whole, and only focus on "important" parts on the game -- the team in question. It's really easy to "look townie" if you only have to "prove" you are town, and two townies are town, rofl.

There is also this problem where if all the townies play like this the town will never get a team through. Three townies are not going on the first mission anyways, and what i see here is the characteristics of "i am a better pick than this guy, but i don't really even call him scum, nevertheless this team is not good". So, here is what i want from you;

Detailed reads on everyone, thanks.
Let's see where you stand for real.

On November 05 2015 01:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I didn't want to say this early on in the game but it seems like the game is not going anywhere right now since it HAS TO be a fact there are too many townies scumreading other townies so i'll say it now.

The best way of playing Resistance, at least what i have figured out is to play the first cycle as you were playing mafia. What Rels said is completely untrue, just because if mafia does not look town they cannot bus, everything is situational. The way to play is to give out reads, town and scumreads. While townreads are "more important" here, the fact is that mafia doesn't want an all town team to go on a mission, that should be obvious. Now if scum are bussing, it hinders their changes of getting a mission where there is scum on it to go through, just because they have to downvote missions (unless they themselves are the scum there).

Now if mafia busses, and there happens to be a town leader, they might find themselves in a situation where they must accept an all town team, because otherwise they give themselves away. You can't just have three scumreads and when a mission goes up where all the people there are townread by you, you just can't say "i am nay-voting this team, because...".

The fact is mafia needs to play reactionary in this game. That leads us to a situation, where people who are hesitant to give out reads are more likely to be mafia -- or if mafia gives out reads early on, they have harder time winning the game and it is more likely for them to fuck up the game (as they can't even communicate outside the thread).

---

And that is exactly why i read you scum early on kitaman. I saw these characteristics in your play. Technically there is nothing "wrong" in what you said during the first 1,5 irl-days, but you were not being pro-active, i found you out to be reactionary, which is a scum trait. Like you said here:
+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, again, technically you are absolutely correct here. I created a narrative and called you scum for it. Well to be exact i explained to HtS why your play doesn't make you town, but yes, i found out your play to be more likely to come from scum. But in my opinion i have good reasons to think the narrative i was entertaining is the right one.

Now let's go onto your reads:
+ Show Spoiler +
sicklucker and Artanis - i disagree on the null read. I have explained why.
Superbia - i agree, almost definitely. I disagree with the "over-explaining" stuff. I would still say i am weakly leaning town on him, but later on his presence has been underwhelming, and people are right in saying he hasn't given opinions on much.
ShoCkeyy - You have expanded on this and my thoughts on what you said match exactly. My problem is i don't usually care to explain stuff that is really obvious, and it is really obvious he is scum and why he is scum, has been for a long time.

HtS/Xatalos/Rels - here is where this gets tricky.

I kinda understand the read on HtS. What gives me pause on HtS is the fact that he last-second swapped Xatalos to you. Now i don't think you are both mafia with HtS. The problem is why does he swap? I don't find her reasoning good. She basically did that because you called Xatalos mafia, and she townread you for it. As i said -- if you are town here, and Xatalos is town, there is a perfectly good scum motivation to switch Xatalos <-> you, just because you are scumread by more people than Xatalos is (or at least was, at that time). I understand this doesn't make her scum, but i can't understand why she does the swap, especially as she STILL thinks Xatalos is town (the team on her/me/xatalos was definitely more likely to get yay-voted than her/me/you). I mean like; if she is scum, and picks you over Xatalos, then i don't know which one of you is scum -- hell it's probably (at least at that point) more likely i am gonna call you scum over her (which never happens if the mission gets sabotaged with her/me/xatalos). Do you see my point? I also don't like her downgrading Xatalos even below Superbia, just because "she liked Superbia's latest post"..... Those are the things that bother me on HtS atm, otherwise i think her posting is fine.

I am really conflicted with your reads on Rels and Xatalos. The first thing that raises my eyebrows is the fact that you read other people based on motivation, but there is zero analysis of motivation regarding Xatalos. The read on Xatalos is actually based on something you think is scummy in what he has said. The fact is, if you read Rels' posts in this light, there is literally way way way more things that are just plain out fucking scummy. Why do you jsut ignore them when you read Rels, and give a read like "he is engaged and changes his opinion", when Xatalos actually does the same thing.

It's like...
- from Xatalos you pick something that could be scummy, and ignore everything else (his play as whole)
- from Rels you ignore the things that could be scummy, and say he is town for his play on whole
It makes very little sense to me. Especially when i think your case on Xatalos is really weak.

The fact is Xatalos does not read the thread entirely properly as town. As mafia he is way more "clean" and actually thinks more than he posts. As town it is the other way around. You claim that he is scum for certain things he said about Superbia and you. The thing is, there is no reason for Xatalos to say what he said about Superbia if he is mafia (especially if Superbia is town). Why does he give out a townread on him based on "shit reasons" when he has scumread Superbia before? It doesn't make any sense, especially if the reasoning is -- as you claim -- made up, and he doesn't genuinely think so. I also think the read on you at the time was not scummy at all, because i felt the exact same way about you back then.

On the other hand there is Rels. I would like to ask you this:
- Why do you think his read (reasoning/changes on it) on me throughout the game is not scummy?
- Why do you think his townread on ShoCkeyy was not scummy? It was literally based on the worst, and the most scummy post in this thread.
- Why is it impossible that he changes his read on HtS when he does (or rather -- more likely to come from town)? If HtS is town (as you assume) and i am town (as you assume) and i think you assume you are town anyways --> HtS has put on a team that is all town, what choise does he have? He has to call someone scum. I don't find his reasoning to be even good.
- Why do you read Rels town for his "level of engagement". Rels is a player whose engagement level is pretty close to what it is as town as mafia. You could compare that to people like HF/bugs/you/DP/marv/me (when the last two plays scum properly). I can also tell you that Xatalos' level of engagement isn't the same as either alignment...

I literally can't see why you townread Rels.

---

The next thing i want to talk about is this:

I don't like this post, and the fact that you are not looking behind the words at all. Let's break this into pieces:
My reasoning for doing this is the following:
1) town - i believe that you three are scum (in which case it makes this the best play if all of you three agree - it just does, as the town auto-wins after regardless of what team we choose next )
2) town - i believe there is a chance that you all three are scum, and i know you will never agree to this as either alignment
3) mafia - idk... you can insert your reasoning here because you seem to think there could be a reason, i can't give one, since i am not mafia and i would never do that when i am ALREADY on the team and (heavily) townread by 7 other players....

Now the point of all this was a couple of things:
- Rels; i didn't learn anything, although he called my logic "twisted", and i still don't know why. maybe he explains it someday, as there is nothing twisted in my logic. (i am pretty sure Xatalos & Artanis see what i was after here)
- ShoCkeyy; i don't really care since he is scum anyways, but he thinks i am scum (regardless of what he tries to say -- he does), so why does he accept a team proposed by scum? Like.. if i was scum i would put a teammate there, obviously, i am not stupid.
- regarding you, i wanted to push your reads out, because i was annoyed of you not giving any concrete reads. I know you would never agree to this regardless of who is mafia and regardless of your alignment. The thing that confuses me is that you kinda called me scummy for it, when there is literally no scum motivation for me to do that (i actually did a similar "anti-town" thing in Nuclear Winter mafia (which never had any anti-town motivation that anyone could explain) -- and caught Ace pants down on N1 ).

---

Anyways, my problem right now is the following.

Your read on Xatalos (and his (and my) read on you) is the biggest issue here, since other people can't agree to anything. The fact is that there is basically no other team than me/you/Xatalos that will EVER go to the first mission based on people's reads and how they differ from other people's reads.

I am really really sure Xatalos is town. So it basically leaves me with; I have to prove to other people you are scum (for them to agree onto some fucking team ever), or if you are town i have to prove you that Xatalos is town -- and vice versa (otherwise no team will go until ShoCkeyy posts a team and it will 100% fail).

Like... you have to admit there is a chance you are wrong on Xatalos. I don't find your case good. I admit i COULD be wrong on Xatalos, i am just really fucking sure of my read, more sure than anything else in this game. I also admit i am not sure if you are mafia or town, because historically i am not that good in reading you and i kinda end up thinking you are scum in any game we are in.

That's why i am basically trying to talk to you (and Xatalos -- at least later on). I think the key of your two alignments is the key to solving this game. So if you could answer my concerns it would be nice.

On November 15 2015 23:07 Vivax wrote:
Maybe I'm just being stupidly paranoid again, cause this argument is still golden imo:



Except that Fidei said not all votes were sent in, so something might be fishy about this.
Tbh I think it would be fair to know who defaulted to "no", the voting outcome should be public, but it might be game breaking, idk.

On November 15 2015 23:01 Vivax wrote:
If you're town trust me and don't yay-vote anything until it's clear wtf spies have been doing.

Your scumteam is what I was at yesterday before rereading anything but it's too easy. And Ockhams razor isn't how you play mafia.

Not everything that rages and gets mad at stupid things is a town rayn. He uses being mad as an excuse when he plays mafia.

On November 16 2015 00:36 Vivax wrote:
And I think rayn bussed the hell out of you. It just made no sense for him to get mad about you calling his play in some game shit. I think it was an act, otherwise if he gets mad he does it for a reason and if you respond to him in a calm demeanor he can tone it down and say something normally. He didn't do that with you. He acted like he hated you all this game and yet you both always voted the same on the fail teams.

On November 16 2015 00:50 Rels wrote:
K HTS just slipped right there. I purposefully did the same thing Arta did when he picked rayn's team to gather reactions. The normal reaction of someone scumreading me should be:
I'm scum because the team goes against my reads and I dedouaned myself from nominating a team. People thinking that should be thinking Arta is scum, or at least suspicious 'cause (1) he did the exact same thing and (2) I'm putting him in my team.
Here is what HTS did:

Rels is scum 'cause he nominated a WIFOM team that was against his read.
But the team is clean, so Arta, who did the same thing, is town.

Second thing, kita has tried to get HTS talking about things about Arta and I. HTS didn't answer in details to these unless I missed it. But now that she sees the opportunity to both:
- explain how I am even scummier than before
- push people to vote YES
she's putting the effort to do it.

Third thing, town is one failure away from losing, and she's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread.

TLDR
1. Arta does something, he's town; Rels does the same thing, Rels is scum and Arta is still town
2. She's putting the effort to convince even more people I'm scum.
3. She's OK voting YES to a team nominated by her scumread.

Now this doesn't mean Arta is scum by itself; but since HTS is OK putting herself out of teams only if Arta is instead, there is a relationship. As to why Arta is scum, see kita's big post about him.

On November 16 2015 00:57 Rels wrote:

And now Arta is pushing people to vote YES with overexplanation. This is making soooo much sense.

On November 16 2015 00:56 Vivax wrote:


But why are you so forgiving towards him? Why does he have to be 100 % town all the time?
If he used the arguments on you that he used on me I'd be scumreading him 100 %.

I think he just thought you and Shockey looked awful and wanted to send you where the sun doesn't shine and get nomd on every team himself. That's scenario 1. Scenario 2 is that he's mafia with Artanis.

That would have worked up until the point where his reads stopped making sense and he went for suicide by mod.

Now tell me again if rayn isn't capable of replicating what he did in his last town game you cohosted if he were mafia, do you think he has the short term memory of an ant?

I rage ergo sum ?

On November 16 2015 01:02 Vivax wrote:
Challenge of the day: HTS vs Rels.

I think early game holds answers to this quest.