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On November 13 2015 07:07 Vivax wrote:
He's a good mafia, will never forget the game where cultkush converted him and then he owned the town :/.
I'd claim he can be on the level of BH in mafia mini mafia which is recent, if he puts enough effort into it.
I don't think he's on the level of BH in this game teehee.
I think the best way to read him is just checking if he pushes townies (or scum objectives) or is actually believably correct on something.Imo he has been focusing on the wrong things, like his setup talk in the start when to me all the exchanges between Xata/super and rayn/Rels felt really interesting (although he could only have commented on Xata/super, rayn/rels happened later and I have to see if he took a stance there).
And he has tried to push my slot as being spy which I also didn't like. I thought my slot was looking townier than Xata at the beginning of the game.
Well setup talk is always NAI. I get that. But the latter exchange with rayn/Rels is a blur so I go and add that to the Kita meta read tonight then.
And Kita's game so far has had that squeaky clean attribute that WoS described in Personality Mafia.
In both my worlds with Xata as scum, there was SOME double bussing going on and there was disassociation day 1 (which is what my scumreads are pushing against because it is obviously less likrly), so for me it's an issue of metareading and re-checking filters.
The problem is for me there's a lot of stuff in the filters esp with Rels that really don't add up and when you do associative from Rels it's pointing to Kita as scum.
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On November 13 2015 07:07 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 06:16 Half the Sky wrote:On November 13 2015 03:31 Vivax wrote:
You don't just walk into TL and townread kita.
Especially when he pushes my slot who will start expelling massive townie bricks when I have more time for this game.
I just went a bit over Xatalos last pages and I like where his head is, actually. I need more time for this game :> , but my SL read will probably stay as it is, so will the kita read. The last mafia is tricky but I'm leaning towards HTS. sicklucker and Kita have been at it at each other nearly all game. Why do you think (or am I misreading) they are double bussing? Are you sure those interactions are scum on scum? How do you know that Kita isn't doing the same thing to sicklucker that you claim he's (analogously) doing to you? I think this is more than enough evidence that he hasn't looked at me in the slightest. If he honestly isn't familiar with my interaction with SL, yet concludes that SL and myself are buddies together, how can anyone possibly think that his read is legitimate? He attacks me for the "meh I don't care" post an hour into the game and he attacks me for the "spammy" list thing I did last night, but completely ignores any analysis relevant to the events of the game.
Kita
Vivax has said he's not have had the time to play this game. He is probably going to have bad and/or suboptimal reads regardless of alignment. Why are you suggesting (if you are?) this could be mafia motivated?
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On November 13 2015 07:18 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Anyway, gone for the rest of the night.
Good night Lex <3
I know I'm right on sicklucker and Xatalos.
I just wish we were both a little more articulate about it (although it's better for sicklucker at this point to be so). I tried explaining it once. Ugh.
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On November 13 2015 07:07 Vivax wrote:
He's a good mafia, will never forget the game where cultkush converted him and then he owned the town :/.
I'd claim he can be on the level of BH in mafia mini mafia which is recent, if he puts enough effort into it.
I don't think he's on the level of BH in this game teehee.
I think the best way to read him is just checking if he pushes townies (or scum objectives) or is actually believably correct on something.Imo he has been focusing on the wrong things, like his setup talk in the start when to me all the exchanges between Xata/super and rayn/Rels felt really interesting (although he could only have commented on Xata/super, rayn/rels happened later and I have to see if he took a stance there).
And he has tried to push my slot as being spy which I also didn't like. I thought my slot was looking townier than Xata at the beginning of the game.
There was a very recent example of this - Kita carried mafia in the New Personality Mafia which is why I've picked that game to meta (he aliased as Judge Judy).
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Finished killing trees (print jobs) again, need to afk.
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sicklucker - #2686 is a VERY good post by Artanis. I suggest you read it when you wake up.
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On November 13 2015 19:24 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 07:08 Half the Sky wrote:On November 13 2015 06:56 Vivax wrote:
I can tell you already that I would send or accept HTS/Coag/Artanis/myself.
I can compromise on swapping myself out with either Shockey or Xata (who I think is more likely to be town than SL) if you don't trust me.
If you also TR rayn who in my opinion is a good player but had to be wrong on someone last cycle, that sort of coincides with his reads, with exception of HTS/Shockey. I'm so sure on Xatalos and Rels as spies at this point but if we must compromise and you want SL out, then Shockey in for sure. Also the frustrating thing here is that rayn is town but Coag needs to do his part in getting Shockey out of the tunnel. Goddamnit. Part of the problem there from Shockey's POV is that rayn voted for two failed missions and was in two failed missions but that must mean that who else is scum? But there's a reason that not even scum are trying to bury him for that even. His reads were off this game (Shockey/myself) so that should lend clear to him as to why he voted that way and put the people on his mission that he did. And to be quite frank, if it comes down to you and Xatalos, I would take you over Xatalos by a country mile. Because I really really think he's mafia and if he gets on a team again, this game is over. HTS you need to stop being so tunneled and THINKYou are town => Arta is scum Others have to decide which of you, or if both of you are scum, but you have a big chance: you know your alignement. Two people voted YES on the first team and wasn't on the first team: there is 99% chance one of them if scum. And YOU are one of them. Here you are pushing a me + Vivax or me + kita team, which is extremely unlikely. I know where you are. I was tunneled on you with rayn before, specificaly for that reason: you refuse to admit two people voting NO is next to impossible with such a close vote.Your stubborness modkilled rayn. Don't make it lose the game and think; even if you can't decide I'm town, at least stop townreading Arta, 'cause it doesn't make sense.BTW if you're scum and Arta is town, fucking WP. I mean, it's more Arta failing than you being good in this case, but WP for keeping the effort.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Rels, I know you're mafia here, but on the bolded, thanks for making me laugh.
rayn lacked self-control, that's why he was modkilled, not because of anyone. Honestly it didn't matter what my reads were at the time or what I was doing, what happened, happened.
And Rels, there's so many things wrong with your filter, it's not funny. Funny that Artanis even highlighted some of them.
Again, Xatalos got on that team, and that's all that needed to happen with where the reads of people were. rayn was scumreading Superbia, you, and myself at the time, and he pushed sicklucker over Artanis because the "scummier" people were voting for the team. If you voted yes, with a mission failure and you couldn't line your stuff up as scum, you'd look bad. And scum are concerned about how they look. Voting no doesn't necessarily vindicate you when there's other things going on.
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Artanis -
I'm going to explain sicklucker's read flip on you, since (sigh) he failed to do it himself. I saw the reasoning in the thread, but I'll walk you through it. I think you should focus on his mindset and Rels' especially, if you think sicklucker in his flip on you is being mafia motivated or if he's falling for the whole "omg only one person could have voted no" and not take anything else into consideration.
Start at the conversation from pages 126-128 (between SL and Rels) and then follow these quotes from page 130 through
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=130#2595
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=131#2609
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=131#2610
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=131#2612
I remember it because I had just touched down into the US and Shockey was trying to pick the teams. But basically he's convinced that only one person voted no. Even then, the interactions should tell you something about Rels.
On November 12 2015 20:55 sicklucker wrote:
Maybe art just wanted more information? Every vote is more info for town its pretty smart to vote no alot as town. Like really smart...
That post indicates that SL wasn't out to get you in that convo. He was thinking it through. Read in that convo up to post 2558 and you can see why Rels is pushing that one line of thinking so hard after sicklucker was taking other things into consideration ("that false world" in post 2558).
That's another thought process from his end that should make him more towny if you can see it.
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On November 13 2015 08:04 Vivax wrote:
Actually I want to take this to a new level kita, cause just as I realized while checking if you posted any teams, I also realized there's little point in calling people mafia if you can't start pushing preferred teams and making compromises with others (which is what you have been lacking).
Mention a team of people you would accept being sent, cause there's little point in me just calling you mafia if what we're discussing isn't a team with you on it.
On November 13 2015 08:08 Vivax wrote:
Cause one particular thing about this game is that mafia has an easier time just creating scum combinations and being "whatevs" if anyone of the spies outside of that team makes it (cause then they will just vote yes with a short term justification whenever one of them makes it into the team).
Which is what you have been doing contrary to other people who actually propose teams of townreads, not scumreads.
These are actually really good posts. (#2714/2715)
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That might be the whole distance thing that Vivax was referring to re: Kitaman. Hmmmmm.
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I'm reading again from pages 40- to about 80 or whenever the first mission failed. That was a generic argument, you stated had no reason to townread sicklucker.
Then later on, this quote more or less supports my "let's see where everyone stands" theory.
On November 05 2015 22:10 Rels wrote:rayn and you are town. SL I'm not sure. Nothing scummy, but he's not doing much. Arta tomorrow will probably elect you / rayn / him; my vote will depend on who I think is towniest between SL and Arta at deadline. Waiting on Arta's answers to me + his analysis on me he said he would do.
Page 65 you're voting no, rayn is trying to still push the team though in the argument between him and you, although his pushing we might need another look at. (page 64-65)
In any case, to answer you Rels, a scum Rels would know that Xatalos is obviously going to vote yes on the team he puts through. You're waiting for SL, so that's basically the reason for you to vote no. What I'm trying to say is that you voting no doesn't necessarily vindicate you from being scum. Especially if everyone else's thoughts are making sense. Does this make sense now?
Actually the biggest problem overall is that you are almost overfocusing on the votes alone, and there are other layers to this game (namely the filters when I look at theirs and when I look at yours). Obviously we're "forced" to eliminate one of you and PoE it down to two townies. Duh, of course that's what scum are banking on here.
And there was a really good gem from rayn on Kita that I'll put in another post. It's decent food for discussion.
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An interesting conversation between Rels and Artanis early in the game.
On November 06 2015 02:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Rels, why did you flip your Rayn read based on things that had already happened before you townread him initially? What made you think about him again? Your argument's revolved around things he should know, but no part of your argument was new to when you said he was definitely town.
On November 06 2015 02:18 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Like you went from calling him basically confirmed town to very suspicious in 3 hours without anything seemingly triggering you.
On November 06 2015 06:28 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 02:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Rels, why did you flip your Rayn read based on things that had already happened before you townread him initially? What made you think about him again? Your argument's revolved around things he should know, but no part of your argument was new to when you said he was definitely town. I'm on phone so no quote: read my big post. The first line is something like "I thought he was confirmed because he made a very similar post about noobking in newbie XIII". But actually its super suspicious that he uses this game to prove that my case are boring, when my play D1 this game was boring. Now he defends himself saying "But its not THIS kind of boring!", when he clearly said in example of me being town " look how he's always looking for something new on noobking". I get that this is not very clear without quote; read my big post and the reactions after it to understand.
On November 06 2015 06:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 06:28 Rels wrote:On November 06 2015 02:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Rels, why did you flip your Rayn read based on things that had already happened before you townread him initially? What made you think about him again? Your argument's revolved around things he should know, but no part of your argument was new to when you said he was definitely town. I'm on phone so no quote: read my big post. The first line is something like "I thought he was confirmed because he made a very similar post about noobking in newbie XIII". But actually its super suspicious that he uses this game to prove that my case are boring, when my play D1 this game was boring. Now he defends himself saying "But its not THIS kind of boring!", when he clearly said in example of me being town " look how he's always looking for something new on noobking". I get that this is not very clear without quote; read my big post and the reactions after it to understand. Yeah but what made you think about this? He hadn't said anything new since your last post.
On November 06 2015 06:40 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 06:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On November 06 2015 06:28 Rels wrote:On November 06 2015 02:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Rels, why did you flip your Rayn read based on things that had already happened before you townread him initially? What made you think about him again? Your argument's revolved around things he should know, but no part of your argument was new to when you said he was definitely town. I'm on phone so no quote: read my big post. The first line is something like "I thought he was confirmed because he made a very similar post about noobking in newbie XIII". But actually its super suspicious that he uses this game to prove that my case are boring, when my play D1 this game was boring. Now he defends himself saying "But its not THIS kind of boring!", when he clearly said in example of me being town " look how he's always looking for something new on noobking". I get that this is not very clear without quote; read my big post and the reactions after it to understand. Yeah but what made you think about this? He hadn't said anything new since your last post. I don't know. I just thought about it and realized it didn't make sense to take as example a push of mine in one game, and forget another one in the same game that was the opposite.
So Rels ends with an "I don't know" which indicates it might not be a natural thought process, and mafia have to make something up here. Which lends this to being scum-indicative. He also fails to answer the question as to whether rayn did anything new or that he did anything new to change that read or not (Artanis' "he hadn't said anything new [for you to think] since your last post").
I think (???) rayn called him on this earlier but in any case this was a bit easier to follow.
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This is a pretty interesting call on Kita by rayn.
On November 06 2015 00:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Well he's gonna vote yes since we are all mafia, then we just don't send any of us into next missions and his town wins.
EZPZ. Unless he wants to claim scum ofc..
On November 06 2015 00:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 00:35 Xatalos wrote:
I guess I can see the logic if he thinks we're all scum on the mission? He said if one of me / you were on mission 1 it's okay, because the other two are town, so he would know for sure who is scum. But if me AND you are on the mission, he wouldn't know for sure which one of us is scum. But then he also townreads everyone except for me/you/sl, so why would he need to "figure out which one of rayn/xatalosis mafia" in the first place?
On November 06 2015 00:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:and this points to kitaman being scum.  because i think the real reason was not to "not have both of xatalos/rayn on a mission" but instead have mafia on a mission -> kitaman.
This (assuming rayn didn't misread) actually further lends support to the Xatalos/(whoever)/Kita scum team. Or in the infintessimally small chance that I'm wrong on Xatalos, that Kita is scum without using any meta.
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Going to do work now but some interesting reference points there.
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On November 13 2015 23:26 sicklucker wrote:
hts you dont have to convince anyone of my alignment. We either lose here or im confirmed town anyway
Eh part of this problem is that townies are scumreading other townies. I still remember NSM6. Town lost because everyone was tunnelling the wrong people for the wrong reasons. I think the same thing is sort of happening here, and people are missing important things.
I was trying to look into Kitaman as well to be honest. Because the way it's looking right now, I might have been wrong here - Vivax is looking more town and Kita not so much.
That last thing by rayn shows something potentially fabricated by Kita and even if I cannot stand the former's way of working with people, his nitpickiness does ferret out key things like this.
Which means we could likely have a team on board - even if it is one that Shockey didn't want - that will successfully complete this upcoming mission.
Shockey/me/Vivax/sicklucker
Right now? I would bet on this.
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Rels - re #2813 I am reading backwards - yeah I stand corrected. I'm jumping to post #1019 in that sequence as to where rayn is having a problem with Kita. So scratch #2801 entirely.
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On November 13 2015 23:39 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2015 23:33 Half the Sky wrote:
I was trying to look into Kitaman as well to be honest. Because the way it's looking right now, I might have been wrong here - Vivax is looking more town and Kita not so much.
That last thing by rayn shows something potentially fabricated by Kita and even if I cannot stand the former's way of working with people, his nitpickiness does ferret out key things like this. You're really starting to become difficult to deal with, which is problematic considering that I want to town read you. Please lets not go through another Aperature 
Like I told Rels, ignore post #2801. I'm reading the thread and 2 filters at once.
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Alright, now I gotta do work. Will be back.
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On November 14 2015 01:29 Vivax wrote:
I don't think I'll be pursuing further conversation with you, kita. I'm dead set on you being mafia, you are on me. I'm perfectly fine with just no-voting any future team with you in it, and so should you, this game isn't about lynching.
Just hope to catch you in another game where you're actually town.
HTS/me/Artanis/Coag ftw.
Swap me for Shockey, or Xata if needed.
Btw I hardly see people considering putting Arta on a team, which I really don't get. 1. He looks townish, 2. He's good at resistance.
I really think you are town here, you're wrong on sicklucker v Xatalos - but from what I can tell how you think SL is mafia - but not because your thinking comes from a mafia mindset.
With the associative read from Rels pointing right at Kita it makes me more confident of this. (And then I saw Kita's latest proposed scumteam and I just facepalmed.)
#2 honestly is NAI, but Artanis' posting really doesn't appear to be coming from a mafia mindset.
If people are afraid of sicklucker or cannot decide sicklucker v Xatalos, then pick any 4 of the 5 we're most sure on:
Vivax/Artanis/Coag/Shockey/myself
If anyone's afraid of me, just leave me off. I can trust the other four.
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EPT
