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On July 24 2015 23:42 ruXxar wrote:
Damdred:
- don't like opening post, forced.
- tone read on me, same read he had last game when he was mafia, too certain.
On July 24 2015 09:22 Damdred wrote:
I'm here, i'm town I think this is just a normal entry post.
ruxxar are you saying this is forced or the next post?
On July 24 2015 09:53 Damdred wrote:
Initial reads before anything else happens
Disinformation and Ruxxor are obviously town to me atm, this is subject to change but tone wise and frequency of posting so far lead me in the general direction of duh they are town.
I disagreed with frequency alone being a town indicator becauce it can be both ways but why are you saying he's too certain? Why couldn't this just be confidence? He's saying obviously, then he says "subject to change" then he's saying "general direction". The explanation flows so I don't know where you mean too certain.
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I'm back. I am looking through Barakos/Moosy since they are the more debated at the moment.
Barakos's first post - the first post that everyone's sort of gone through, besides it not really having conclusions, it has a "I'm going to wait and see" feel which is scummy. There isn't that search for information that I saw with other posts. I saw Rayn's first post too but I didn't think it was a big deal since it was the very first post and we can always read him later. Also the reaction test thing makes no sense to me just reading it he holds the same standards for breshke and disformation passing that test when Breshke died more prematurely than disformation.
And in reading elsewhere, I would think a reaction test would be something like a fakeclaim/blue claim like happened in that game or a sharp read against what the thread is thinking, something that would actually provoke a reaction and shows alignment. Plus he also doesn't really draw alignment conclusions from that test either.
I don't have a problem with voting Barakos, but let me wrap up looking at moosy and see whether he really is worse than Barakos.
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On Moosy
On July 25 2015 01:24 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Lol you want my honest expectations of ruXxar? I think he's a shit player who can't give reads and who makes shitty arguments like this. He tunnels hard as hell and generates way too much spam for him to be worth as a townie. That's my honest interpretation of ruXxar.
HOWEVER
even if he's a shit player the least he can do since he signed up is try and participate rather than spam useless poetry. Which is why I've been pulling his teeth and trying to get him to fucking participate although I doubt he's going to provide anything useful anyway.
As for your argument LOL. The reason why I'm going to take particular care in looking at your posts is because I hold a grudge over your worthless play in our first newbie game together. That's what I mean when I say I will "suspect you hard". It's not that I think that you're Mafia but that I'm going to make sure that if you are Mafia that I'll catch it and make sure you die.
Want me to more brutally honest or does this suffice?
I am looking at some of these posts and I want to say these posts that he's going on about ruXxar could come from either alignment.
On July 25 2015 01:49 MoosyDoosy wrote:
On the other hand since he did sign up to play he should at least do something helpful and TRY to give reads even though he won't give anything useful.
This quotes I could see coming from either alignment. If ruXxar and moosy were both scum, it would be him giving an opening to try and dig himself out. If moosy was town and regardless of the alignment of ruxxar it would be him trying to search for more information.
However when I see ruxxar's response to moosy "the more you talk the more convinced you are mafia", I also don't see scum teammates trying to push each other on the first day of play, so I'm going to say moosy is probably a town lean.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/490503-newbie-student-mafia-xiii?page=25#497
I also don't understand the case against moosy. I think reading somewhere Breshke complained about some contradiction? Did it sound deliberate?
Unless I missed a quote somewhere from Moosy, why can't someone as town complain about how you are playing the game without determining (or being able to determine your alignment) and then use that same complaint to try and get information out of you? Moosy could very well be mafia but I don't think that approach that ruxxar described would be a great reason.
Now later on, the one thing I don't like about moosy is that he gets back into thread when ruxxar is past his poetry phrase and he is only criticizing him for just hopping on a wagon, and from this post
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/490503-newbie-student-mafia-xiii?page=32#624
is still more or less calling his play bad, so I'm not clear where he draws the line between bad play and mafia play for ruxxar. Hopping on a wagon for no reason is scummy.
Then in the next post, he's giving advice, as scum though it goes back to my first post, he probably wouldn't be giving him advice if he was scum, instead looking to take advantage since that would serve a mafia interest.
I'm thinking null or a very slight townlean based on the advice but I do want to clarify something.
Moosy if you return to the thread,
[B]On July 25 2015 09:07 MoosyDoosy wrote:
COUGH YOU'RE evaluation about him being more warm? I was the first one to point that out thank you very much. But then again the only thing you can do is hop on wagons so I guess I shouldn't have expected anything else.
can you explain why you are implying this is bad and why this wouldn't make him mafia? Metaread? You keep calling him a shitty player but where are you drawing the line between ruxxar the bad player and ruxxar the mafia player.
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On July 26 2015 04:30 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2015 04:19 Damdred wrote:
Its just a few hours till lynch though and instead of pushing your prefered lynch you say you don't like the lynch and you are instead putting attention on myself and rayn. It is counter productive at best with the time left if you are so against the lynch We started talking about me being flaky on the Bara lynch remember? You and rayn might be onto something with him, and I'm certainty not going to defend him when he is not around himself. His lynch could actually be really good, and at this point is probably going to happen. I'm not as convinced that he is scum and have been trying to reconcile a few things. Both Moosy and Sulf seem pretty scummy to me as I've been talking about since I got home from work last night. There's a pretty solid amount of afk players atm which is making it harder to push another wagon.
Can you explain what makes moosy worse than barakos? Just finished reading through the two I think the latter is worse as it stands.
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n00b, other players.
On the second part yeah, but that's basically what I meant by him saying Breshke and whoever else failed the reaction test, as opposed to them failing the reaction test and saying that them not saying things from another game (or however he said it) made it likely that person was mafia. *shrug*
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On July 26 2015 04:11 Tictock wrote:
I'm still a bit more interested in lynching Moosy or Sulf over Bara.
Both I've discussed, but to elaborate on Sulf.
The list post feels really odd to me and if I were to accept it and merge with my own reads would leave only one scum team of Bara/ Moosy/ Noc. While that is a totally possible team I just can't agree with things being that simple so early. Also I have a really hard time understanding why n00b, Damdred, Flex, Dis, and Bre all ended up where they are on those reads.
The post about Bara really was weird too and really only makes sense as trying to show he thinks Bara is scummy for his own reasons.
Like even if Bara is scum here this looks like a lame attempt to hop on that wagon without just sheeping.
My take on Sulfurus
To me, he's calling Flexes lock clear town which is just weird and I think someone else also mentinoed why he was ranked above disinformation. The bigger issue is where he gets that when he's ranked two other players (ruxxar and rels) below that when those two have posted a large amount and from what I tell of the filter he doesn't have explanations either way for that. He ranks rayn and Damdred who have posted a lot more too so I am also not clear on where he thinks Rels is less town (according to what he's posted) for example. And disformation.
On July 25 2015 08:46 Sulfurus wrote:
The mind-meld is between me and rayn FailFish
Not to mention I don't know what a mind meld is either...but that's probably irrelevant.
Do you Tictock think your case on Sulfurus makes him lynchable over Barakos? Or even any of the points I or others raised?
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From my previous post -
##vote Barakos
Yes Tictock, I know that's why I want to know from moosy when he got back in thread and he didn't really do anything different from ruXxar's poetry phase, where he draws the line between a bad ruxxar and mafia ruxxar.
To be fair, moosy I believe did say he did his mafia hunting by getting the townies first and then working from there, so from that standpoint, he seems to be townreading Rels (the tunnel comment) and ruXxar from an earlier comment. But then again, that's it and it doesn't explain why he keeps bringing up the "shit" play from him. End of his filter he's setting himself up to follow up on reads on people so he has some time to do that.
If he doesn't do that, though I'd be much more inclined to scumread him.
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Tictock, you said you were suspicious of rayn based on tone. Do you or anyone else know if rayn is normally like that or is rayn's tone/pickiness deviating from his normal play?
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I'm back and (obviously) catching up. First things first - glad to see we got scum d1 and no one died d2. Couldn't get any better.
First few comments just reading a few filters, so I can understand some arguments better -
Moosy's set the standard for himself that he would follow up with reads. He has since provided 5 town reads and one scum read which is consistent with the way he said he'd go about things here. Unless I missed it somewhere in reading, is anyone else voting for him other than Sulfurus (which I take issue with for reasons I state later) if so, why? Something to do with where he voted on the wagon?
I wasn't fully convinced d1 he was the vote at all given his tone and he followed up since. But I'm not sure how order/placement of votes affects someone's alignment so if someone could give me a crash course on the whole bussing thing in 1-2 sentences, I'd appreciate it.
Anyhow, I also really don't like Sulfurus' vote on him, which brings me to Sulfurus.
Sulfurus, I already stated my position on his list post. But then he just throws his vote on MoosyDoosy, again with no reason. MoosyDoosy has posted a bit in the time that Sulfurus has posted, so that him not looking at him again and just voting him as being second on the list is pretty terrible.
I'd vote Sulfurus today, looking into others at the moment as I can.
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To add - I know what bussing means, but I'm trying to grasp the relationship between where someone is on a voting wagon and the likeliness of that person being scum. I remember Damdred made some comment around or after end of day 1 on the last people on the wagon being scum, but I didn't understand the argument behind it.
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Rels, sure.
Read parts of the following games - Gaiden, Mafia in the Himalayas - my fear on people's conduct primarily stemmed from these two games, people acting out. The moderators of both games seemed to be pretty strict so that might have biased me there.
Read others - Not Themed Mafia, Carnaval, and maybe the first half of the last newbie.
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On July 27 2015 22:40 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2015 22:31 NocturneMage wrote:
I wasn't fully convinced d1 he was the vote at all given his tone and he followed up since. But I'm not sure how order/placement of votes affects someone's alignment so if someone could give me a crash course on the whole bussing thing in 1-2 sentences, I'd appreciate it. In general, mafia A will not vote for mafia B if nobody else thinks that mafia B is suspicious. But as mafia B gets more and more vote, mafia A will feel compeled to bus him to be in the thread sentiment and appear townie. So usually, the first few people voting on a mafia are townie. After that, it's way less alignment indicative.
Thanks. That raises an additional question though.
Do you think you could discount someone making a play where they kill a scum teammate so they don't get suspicious? I think the point on Barakos was made by someone (Moosy?) where he stopped posting early enough in the cycle that it could coincide with an early vote if that fact was known. If it was communicated in the scum thread that he didn't want to play, couldn't that have happened earlier?
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On July 27 2015 22:42 Damdred wrote:
Guys stop being bads, we shouldn't lynch people who were on the wagon to lynch scum tomorrow.
There are a few people who aren't really playing and weren't on the wagon.
Looking at the prior votes off the main Barakos vote.
moosydoosy (2): Rels, Tictock, ruXxar
Not voting (3): MoosyDoosy, Barakos, Flexes
Just reading and catching up, I know Tictock seems to be controversial, the tarot card thing went over my head beginning of the game so I just ignored it like I did ruXxar's poetry, but both seem to be posting a bit here.
MoosyDoosy is a bit more sparse but his following up of reads, and putting out scumreads makes me think he's still town/town lean. Flexes (now Scott) would be the only one to suspect, I had a scumlean on Flexes when he left, and checking through Scott, he hasn't said anything indicative one way or another. Unless Damdred are you just picking off the Flexes slot by process of elimination?
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I mean statistically speaking with 8 votes on the Barakos wagon I'd think there's one vote on there somewhere. And given what disformation and Rels explained to me on bussing, I think it's statistically likely.
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Based on what you said Damdred, is there any reason to suspect Moosy?
Or anything anyone else has presented? I think Tictock didn't like him either so maybe I'll move on to reading Tictock.
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I looked at the read pointed out by Damdred/Tictock. (Damdred saying after that it was a "nice find" on moosy, so this means to me he found it indicative...scum indicative?)
On July 27 2015 11:03 Tictock wrote:@ Moosy Care to explain this read evolution? Show nested quote +On July 27 2015 02:27 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Breshke is town lean. Although he doesn’t post his thought process which is frustrating at times, he does have a solid line of reasoning when he explains it, although it would be better if he posted it more often. My pressure on him only resulted in your standard townie squabble as well which was based off of a misunderstanding about his thought process. Show nested quote +On July 27 2015 04:23 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Breshke is a lot more quiet and afk than I would like although his interactions resemble those of a townie. Still a null read.
Show nested quote +On July 27 2015 04:54 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I have never played a perfect game of Mafia before. And I’ve already given my thoughts. Mafia is definitely amongst Tictock/Breshke/NocturneMage/Flexes/Sulfurus unless I got fooled hard somewhere. I’m just waiting until night is over before re-reading filters from these people.
To me it's clear why Moosy moved Breshke down from town to null, but not from null to scum. I'm doubting that makes Moosy mafia. Perhaps he can explain, unless it's just Breshke having fallen off and not posting at all for that reason.
In catching up, I don't recall seeing much from Breshke actually...
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On July 27 2015 23:11 Rels wrote:BTW NocturneMage I did a vote recap with timestamps here if you want to check vote timing or things like that.
Thanks. That's helpful actually in me looking through certain people first...
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On July 27 2015 23:31 Damdred wrote:
Actually Sulf was on the wagon pretty early on barak when he probably could of went on moosy and made it a much closer race, probably would of made rels or another person stick on moosy (maybe). Would of been a much closer race, which is all hypothetical situation its true.
I just think its pretty meh to lynch into the wagon that killed mafia when we have people who did scummy things off the wagon, and are still doing scummy things today.
I'm trying to follow you here, first your last statement was sort of activity indicative which is why I questioned regarding Flex/Scott and Moosy. The others off the wagon were active.
Do you still think Moosy is scum? If so, why? I traced your reaction to Tictock's read evoluation for Moosy. I don't see how it's so bad.
Scott so far is not alignment indicative.
ruXxar I didn't like him before I AFKed, so I will also look into him again.
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On July 25 2015 18:31 Tictock wrote:Ok, so I'm reading Moosy's filter and this post just jumps out to me . Show nested quote +On July 24 2015 22:48 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 24 2015 22:35 ruXxar wrote:
Moosy..
What is this soul-read you have on me?
WIth perfect information comes the ease of covering your lies in pretty words. I still hate you. Spot spouting poetry shit and get to business you fool. Traps D1 like this are so bad it's ridiculous. It's completely dependent on the Mafia making a slip while people jump on your wagon. In either case, no one is taking you seriously at this point because of your poetry nonsense so you might as well just stop at this point. It's the last few hours we have. Get down to business. This post is rather Ironic due to the way Moosy himself played D1 as town in the last NSM, interesting as well since Moosy's ploy worked in that game. I also find it very interesting that MD is focusing so heavily on RuXx both in this post and in most of his filter. At the time of this post I had begun posting my tarot stuff which was clearly more nonsensical than ruxx's poetry, yet MD ignores my nonsense and focuses entirely on ruxx. In fact most of MD's filter is just arguments with ruxx over silly points, and none of it ever really goes anywhere. This leads me to believe that MD is not really interested in people focusing on the game (as he would have mentioned my Tarot stuff) and is actually just trying to create some filter by fighting and calling a few minor points out. There was also the overly long and drawn out stuff between MD and Breshke where MD kept dodging some questions. To me it looked like MD was trying to stir up something but when he got called out had to scramble to justify it. I actually think MD is a pretty good lynch here today. So gunna leave my vote on him and take another look at things nearer EoD. ##Vote: MoosyDoosy
Looking at the Tictock/Moosy relationship and Tictock's filter from this standpoint.
Is the Moosy scumread a meta read? The way Moosy is going about it is he's saying "I'm mafia" etc, and just seemingly (outside the townreads) making himself look dumb at points, which I assume is trolling, I read part of the last newbie and Moosy also seemed self destructive purposely in that game.
Tictock, if Moosy is dodging questions like you are saying, how do you know it's not the same self-destructive stuff he did last game? How are you sure he's not doing it out of spite (which to me would be in line with the overall way he's acting)?
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I would definitely vote Sulfurus.
Looking through Breshke now, I could see him being either alignment.
To sum up
- Vote on Barakos was early but it was after people noticed the reaction test, and it was after Barakos left 16h in, he voted 10h after. Could go either way.
- He spends a decent part of the first cycle on ruxxar and then out of nowhere he says "I don't think ruxxar is scum anymore" granted there's a 24h gap between the posts he was on about it, so maybe it's him just being unclear if he actually read the thread or he could be scum giving an easy townread.
- Evolution of Sulfurus read (beyond the initial townread) is unclear and beyond the request on Sulfurus' read on n00bking, he asks Sulfurus read on n00b, which Sulfurus provides and then I see Breshke saying I like n00bking's response regarding the voting wagon.
Breshke defends Sulfurus saying "mafia wouldn't do X" not sure if that's a meta read in the next posts he's doing but if he's not really going anywhere on Sulfurus (I think a similar point was raised on Barakos?), I think a Breshke and Sulfurus scumteam could be possible.
It would at least fit the theory that the scumteam was ineffective, whoever raised that point up.
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EPT
