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I figure it's time for me to make an actual post now that the thread is getting more active.
Sulfurus:
Has made a few posts, but only one-liners and contentless posts. I know you are here and reading the thread, why not try to post something more useful? Neutral read so far, maybe slight scumlean.
WonnaPlay:
Should post so we know you're still alive.
n00bKing
I was just about to say that you haven't said anything of substance, but then I refresh the thread and there you are! You made some good points and seem to come to similar conclusions as I do, slight townread.
Fidei86:
On July 11 2015 09:14 Fidei86 wrote:
So I guess I'll dive in first, since the game needs to start somewhere.
My opinion on the ideal town environment is that it is one where everyone contributes, but nobody spams. The best way for townies to get town-read by other townies is to be active, to discuss things and to give your opinion freely. If you're lurking as town, you're actively hurting your own team. Even if you don't say much and make it to the later rounds, and even if you solve the game, you're an easy mislynch if your filter is only one or two pages long.
However, at the same time, too much back and forth leads to the thread becoming unmanageable for players with less time -- essentially allowing mafia to hide in amongst the noise. I don't want to over-traffic cop, and I'm hopeful it's not going to be a big problem this game, but ... there it is.
I checked the Himalayas thread, and it's true that there was a huge volume of posts. It seems reasonable to me that he wants to avoid spam in this game. Post makes sense to me, good advice for new players too I think he seems towny overall, posts a decent amount and keeps the thread active without spamming nonsense. Doesn't seem afraid to post what he thinks.
silentwarrior:
silentwarrior is living up to his name, as someone said earlier.
NydusHerMain:
Only real post is a random vote for Fidei. Seems inactive for now, lets wait until he gets back.
MoosyDoosy:
Has made some good posts in my opinion. In particular I agree with the following post:
On July 12 2015 05:35 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 04:17 Half the Sky wrote:On July 11 2015 22:32 Fidei86 wrote:
@HTS I agree that it's easy to talk anti-spam. And it's also obviously possible to play a perfectly good scum game without either spamming or lurking. But my view is that if we build a good town atmosphere with all townies being active but not spammy, it makes it much harder for even good scum players to hide. If I start lurking or spamming, that'll be a good sign I'm Mafia. But since I'm town, I'll do my best to stick to my words.
One thing that irks me is that I know that you aren't the biggest fan of spam either. Obviously this thread is much more in danger of being too quiet than too loud, but I would have hoped you'd join me echoing my words. Why the change of heart? Or have you just got your game face on (which, admittedly, wouldn't be very alignment indicative..) I honestly didn't feel it needed repeating (it stood on its own) and just wanted to start seeing what I could get out of the thread. I definitely agree to discourage spam as much as possible but at the same time don't ignore the lurkers. Similarly as was already said, there are high volume posters that do play well as mafia. Sometimes you might also get a milder form of spam if you have too many conversational posters. I can't remember where I said this before but I've said it multiple times now - there's conversational and case based posting and inevitably some people are going to have longer filters if they do engage in long - even if useful - conversation. That said I think either way if people keep things to the point, EBWOPs aside, spam really shouldn't be an issue. That said, this post by Grokken http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=129&topic_id=488742was called into question and honestly I don't think this warrants a scum read - if he's scum, it's not going to be for this. In the context of that entire conversation, there's nothing but sarcasm, to me it's just a cheeky post especially considering the "oh shit you got me" response Gandhi posted after that. The two of them (him and Gandhi) seem pretty carefree like they don't really care what people think of them, which actually warrant a town tell. The second quote that was called into question - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=8#148 First off - one liners aren't alignment indicative either way - like I said before someone might try to evaluate conversation as they have it. I don't think it's reasonable to scum read him largely because NHM hasn't been back to respond so how are you setting up the expectation already that he needs to follow up? There's nothing to follow up on. I think Grokken is a townlean based on his first few posts, it is reasonable for a new player to question something that seems off or may warrant an explanation - and I agree it does. I don't think TJ is being reasonable to set up the follow-up expectation when it's pretty clear where the expectation lies - the answer to that particular question. A haste to judgement is a scumlean (esp for a player I don't know).  I'd prefer it if you let Grokken speak for himself. This might have been the jail free card that he was looking for.
I was going to bring this up myself, but seems like you beat me to it. Although the defense is good, I think it would be better to just let me defend myself, especially because I haven't really posted much before now. MoosyDoosy is a townread for me.
TJHuggins:
Seems like town to me. He identifies me as someone who has no clue what to post, which is pretty accurate considering this is my first online mafia game (my only previous experience is some IRL mafia just before I signed up for this one). I think it makes sense as town to pressure inexperienced players, and try to make them slip up while defending themselves.
Grokken:
Thats me.
Open Slots:
scott31337: Seems to be lurking, no real contribution so far.
Half the Sky:
Seems like town to me. She (?) has made quite a few posts, with a lot of content and some good points. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is that she defended me for seemingly no reason.
GhandiEAGLE:
He says that there isn't much to go by day 1. He hasn't really contributed too much, but the posts he has made feels slightly towny to me. He made a point to flush out the lurkers, which seems like a good idea.
KelsierSC
spamspamspamspamspamspamspam, don't know what to think.
In conclusion, I think we should try to lynch one of the people who is keeping up with the thread, but aren't making useful contributions. These people are in my opinion more likely to be mafia rather than the people who aren't saying anything at all. At this point, these people are Sulfurus, scott31337 and KelsierSC.
This is the first time I make a post like this one, sorry if the formatting is bad.
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On July 12 2015 05:51 n00bKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 05:30 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I was an earnest townie last Newbie Student Mafia game with a monster filter. :3 Besides ruXxar everyone pretty much knew I was a townie which is why I want to change things up here and make things interesting. Change things up in what way? Are you saying you want to vary your play? Or do you mean something else?
Ofc vary my play. I'm not sure how you could read this any other way. o.O
Eh, good post Grokken. You'll catch on quickly to TL Mafia. We basically analyze, cross analyze, then analyze some more of people's filters before finding contradictions or scum reads to lynch ppl. If you want to push something on someone, write up a "case" similar to the one you've written but with bullet points with quotes for evidence. So what you've been doing is pretty good.
For people wondering, what I do is find townreads and work from there so don't expect me to be finding Mafia anytime soon.
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On July 12 2015 06:22 Grokken wrote:
In conclusion, I think we should try to lynch one of the people who is keeping up with the thread, but aren't making useful contributions. These people are in my opinion more likely to be mafia rather than the people who aren't saying anything at all. At this point, these people are Sulfurus, scott31337 and KelsierSC.
AND NydusHerMain, who you conspicuously left out of this group, even though two of your townreads (Moosy and myself) are voting against him. Scott has only one post, but you decide that he's "lurking" and think he's a good lynch. NHM you describe as "inactive" instead, and you want to "wait until he gets back." Why the preferential treatment?
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On July 12 2015 07:49 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 05:51 n00bKing wrote:On July 12 2015 05:30 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I was an earnest townie last Newbie Student Mafia game with a monster filter. :3 Besides ruXxar everyone pretty much knew I was a townie which is why I want to change things up here and make things interesting. Change things up in what way? Are you saying you want to vary your play? Or do you mean something else? Ofc vary my play. I'm not sure how you could read this any other way. o.O
I could not think of any other way to read it. But I wanted to give you a chance to dig yourself out of that hole anyway, since "vary my play" would be a stupid answer.
You were town and you were widely townread, and you were night-killed on Night 2, after I had been night-killed on Night 1. Now you want to "change things up" and "make things interesting" by varying your play, so that people will NOT be able to townread you so easily? How is that good strategy, Moosy? If you're town, shouldn't you WANT your alignment to be evident again, as it was in that game?
You sound like you are pre-emptively making excuses for not matching your own town play. So that if someone like Sulfurus or Scott or myself says "Moosy is playing nothing like he did in the last game...where he was town" you'll be able to say "Well I already told you I was going to vary my play this time!"
See what I'm saying?
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I agree with Grokken that things have probably gone far enough to start pulling my thoughts together. I'm only going to pick out a couple of things I think are worth discussing, to try and keep things focussed.
I also want to say that if I say something below that makes me sound mean about your play (and you're town...), please remember that I'm just scum-hunting like you. Don't take it too personally.
First, I am scum-reading Moosy. So far I have felt that each of his posts is underwhelming or scum-leaning.
I had typed up a long post by post analysis, but I don't want to detract from my main point, so I'll focus on that. Look at his seventh post, which is here. This makes absolutely makes NO SENSE from a town perspective. Moosy says that last game he was town and was town read. Getting town read as town is the second most important thing a townie can do (after scum-hunting, obviously). If everyone agrees you're town, it means that the mafia have less places to hide. It also gives your reads more weight (because people don't think you're lying to them), and finally if you're VT then it means the scum have to choose between lynching you and trying to find blues. If they go for you, then you're giving your blues another turn to work, which is obviously a massive advantage for town. So, with that in mind, why on earth would you want to change your playstyle??? If I was townread last game, I would try and do EXACTLY the same thing again. I do not buy the excuse that he's just changing up his play. There's no reason to abandon a winning formula (unless you care more about your meta than winning, which no serious player should).
Also, the rest of his filter thus far is just agreeing with people, asking questions and shitting on my post about spam (disclaimer: possible OMGUS on my part here).
I would lynch Moosy today.
I am also scum-reading NHM and scott, at least for now. I've hinted at this above, but basically, NHM's initial reaction to me was strange (calling me "this guy" having been friendly to me before the start of the game). And voting for me after all I'd done was mildly traffic cop seems really really weird, PARTICULARLY because NHM was in Holy Guardians, where we D1 lynched Kickstart essentially for traffic copping. Also, in Himalayas NHM was super constructive and friendly, and his posts were easy and flowed nicely from both a logic and a tone standpoint. This game, it's been the opposite so far.
I'm scum reading scott because he said he was going to "re-read" the three page filter this game has so far, but then never game back. That's a massive scum tell to me. When someone claims that RL problems are keeping them busy, but they are plainly free enough to touch base into the thread, more often than not they're trying to keep their face in the thread without actually saying anything of merit.
Some shorter points, because this has already gone on long enough:
- KSC is town read for me, as it looks like he's pulling the same Chezinu crap that Onegu and ritoky love. That said, if he doesn't come in with some stronger plays then he'd be a good candidate for a d2 or d3 lynch - I do not want to take an Onegu clone into Lylo and lose on a coinflip mislynch AGAIN (it would be the third time in a row :-\)
- I'm town reading TJH at the moment. Some people have criticised his case on Grokken (here), but I actually read it as an honest attempt to make a scum case despite the early stage of the game. If nothing else, it got Grokken to come in and post, which was definitely a pro-town result. (Disclaimer: He said nice things about me, so could be pocketed a little).
- I put together a long post poking what I thought was a hole in HTS' logic, but it actually turned out when I read it again that her logic was sound. I might be biased because I like HTS out of game, but I'm town reading her atm. She seems to be posting in a thoughtful and nuanced style. That said, it's all been a big marginal at the moment, so I'll expect her to get more substantive as we move forward.
- Town reading n00bKing, as his reads are similar to mine and also I liked his explanation of his NHM vote. And I REALLY like his case on Moosy, since it's the same as mine.
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Hey guys, sorry for being late. So I just read trough the thread and here are some of my thoughts now. First, fidei seems like a town read to me right now. He seems to genuienly want to create an enviroment that is good for town. His first post makes this obvious. Have to disagree on his stance however. Imo, most games suffer from people not saying enough than the opposite.
My background is pretty newbie. Have been in a few forum mafia games, but mostly i play IRL.
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Ok, so my first scumread when reading was NydusHerMain. First it was that she voted for fidei, for a post which i feel was very towny. She then didn't explain herself, and hasn't posted anything since that. I will be interested to hear what she says about that when she returns.
I also found some of what moosy said suspicous, but most of that has already been said by noobking, The most scummy thing to me was that he said he wanted to change his play, then wondered how someone could read that as. If you are town one game and then make a point to say that you change your play, then logically you will play as mafia.
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On July 12 2015 08:07 n00bKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 07:49 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 12 2015 05:51 n00bKing wrote:On July 12 2015 05:30 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I was an earnest townie last Newbie Student Mafia game with a monster filter. :3 Besides ruXxar everyone pretty much knew I was a townie which is why I want to change things up here and make things interesting. Change things up in what way? Are you saying you want to vary your play? Or do you mean something else? Ofc vary my play. I'm not sure how you could read this any other way. o.O I could not think of any other way to read it. But I wanted to give you a chance to dig yourself out of that hole anyway, since "vary my play" would be a stupid answer. You were town and you were widely townread, and you were night-killed on Night 2, after I had been night-killed on Night 1. Now you want to "change things up" and "make things interesting" by varying your play, so that people will NOT be able to townread you so easily? How is that good strategy, Moosy? If you're town, shouldn't you WANT your alignment to be evident again, as it was in that game? You sound like you are pre-emptively making excuses for not matching your own town play. So that if someone like Sulfurus or Scott or myself says "Moosy is playing nothing like he did in the last game...where he was town" you'll be able to say "Well I already told you I was going to vary my play this time!" See what I'm saying?
I see what you're saying but posting the same way would just be boring for me and everyone else. Eh, just keep an open mind about me.
Also, n00bKing, you need to stop creating specific scenarios. Like, it's cool you can think that far ahead unlike me but then you'll just fall into the hole that ruXxar did and interpret everything I do as Mafia. We saw his rationale for why he thought I was Mafia and it was pretty convoluted and not pretty.
Anyway, things are already becoming interesting what with people thinking I'm Mafia. And that's the goal of this game for me. To make life interesting. :3
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I guess the least that I can say is that I'm trying to find Mafia in a different way than creating a monster filter / sheeping cases with an earnest playstyle like I did last game.
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You said about ten posts ago that you were going to be town-hunting at first. Now you're saying that you're scum-hunting. Which is it??
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I agree with most about what has been said about Moosy. I'm trying to read this game similar to how I would read someone in video mafia (whether or not that is going to work remains to be seen). One way people often get on my "radar" if you will is by dropping sort of key phrases or acting in a certain way after being called out. In my first few months of playing, sometimes this scenario would happen:
A particular player, who may be lurking, or just doesn't sound the same (voice tone, pattern, activeness, etc.) would get pinged out by another player who would say that they "feel different this game" or ask "why they're not playing the same as X game they played with them in." In some of these cases, the person would respond back by saying some variation of the phrase "I'm trying to switch up my play this game" or "I'm trying something new this game." I started to realize that when someone came back with this response most of the time they ended up being a mafia trying to cover up for there change in playstyle due to the change in alignment, or sometimes it was just an excuse to lurk e.g. "I'm going to try to sit back and listen and try to get town reads this game instead of trying to pressure the mafia to see how it works."
I got a similar feeling looking back at what Moosy said (the quote that many have already noted), though I'll admit I didn't catch it the first time. One thing that I did catch, which I thought was kind of odd, is the quote below, though I'm not quite sure what it means yet.
On July 12 2015 02:27 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 01:49 TJHuggins wrote:My initial reads so far is that i am town leaning on Fidei. I like the things he said in relation to spamming, and I think that him relating the perspective to a previous game where he was town feels like he's looking at the game from the perspective of a town. When he responded to HTS regarding talking about anti-spam being easy, he seems genuine. Or maybe it's just because I like his writing. No clue. My initial scum read is Grokken. It's nothing all that strong but I'm getting a wierd feeling about the things he's posted. To me it feels like he is trying to find ways to participate and seem town by chiming in now and again but really has no clue what to write about. On July 11 2015 09:36 Grokken wrote:On July 11 2015 09:32 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
My blood sense is telling me to lynch everyone who knows what theyre doing We should listen to this guy, he seems to know what he is doing. On July 11 2015 13:27 Grokken wrote:On July 11 2015 10:44 NydusHerMain wrote:
Hi, back home. You guys are fucking boring me.
##Vote: Fidei
I don't like the way this guy posts early Can you elaborate on this? What in particular is it that you don't like? I think that one sentence posts that appear to contribute to the game and don't really offer anything just kind of irk me the wrong way. I guess it's worth noting he did write that thing about Dota as well which was also one sentence but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the game I think. When I went back and read the post about him showing off his dota stats that actually reads to me a bit more towny now that I think about it, so not really sure. just an initial read. I don't agree with this but let's see what Ghandi says.
It's a pretty innocuous post on it's face, but what stood out for me is that he is deferring to Ghandi before making judgment. But Ghandi's role in the context of the quoted posts is so minor that I can't think what he could possibly add to the conversation that would in turn color your judgment on Grokken's alignment. In fact, I never even mentioned Ghandi in my post. If he disagrees, ok, but why is he saying he needs to wait and see what Ghandi says?
Not sure if I want to lynch him today, but he's on my radar. I still want to hear more.
On July 12 2015 08:56 Fidei86 wrote:
You said about ten posts ago that you were going to be town-hunting at first. Now you're saying that you're scum-hunting. Which is it??
I think you're reaching a bit here. This post seems so opposite to everything else you've written this game. What gives?
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On July 12 2015 04:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Right now its basically impossible to read into anything effectively, so Day 1 we might as well just flush out all of the lurkers, which I may work on when I get off work in a couple hours.
If I'm reading you correctly you want to lynch lurkers (bolded). Policy lynches are something you resort to (or calling for a potential vigilante to shoot them or any DT to check them at night) for lurkers. You always want to give some effort to look for some sort of scummy behaviour.
I did gloss quick over the first few pages of the one game you played. You seemed a bit clueless as town in some of your posts, so I am inclined this could be another deer in the headlights reaction from you however, pretending to do nothing is a meta that can be easily faked. It's a null read for now until I see the first wave of reads from you - which you did eventually offer in your town game.
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I'm strictly against considering policy lynches this early in the day. I'm saying we should get everyone to start talking because lurkers quickly become scapegoats, especially in newbie games where lurkers are often people who are just unsure of what to say.
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Reading the comments on Scott - he's a borderline policy lynch for me. Yes there's an unfulfilled promise lying there taht others have mentioned but at the same time having played several games with him he DOES have long periods of afk. If he's inactive a lot through EoD, I would advocate a DT check/vig shot (which is the conventional way to deal with lurkers) instead - and take the lynch for someone who actually exhibits more scummy behaviour.
The same thing would also apply for (at this point in time) WannaPlay who has yet to post.
SW is a null read as he is repeating most of the points said and repeating (parroting is another term you'll see used) is something that can be done as either alignment early on, exclusively parroting the entire game is usually scum indicative.
Looking through the thread I would say my top three lynches at this point in time are Sulfurus (the post on MD), MD (self-meta) - I know I've seen veterans try to trash/adjust their meta, but for someone who's only played one game on site, I don't understand why you'd want to make the game more difficult for yourself as town - and to a lesser extent NHM (the post on Fidei).
On MD, aside from what others have said, I also don't like the comment "creating specific scenarios" - unless you are directly accusing noobking of actually lying about what happened last game, it would otherwise seem he's relating from another game - database on NSM shows what noob said actually happened re: the nightkills so that is a clear indication you were in decent standing amongst the playerbase in that game.
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On July 12 2015 12:06 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
I'm strictly against considering policy lynches this early in the day. I'm saying we should get everyone to start talking because lurkers quickly become scapegoats, especially in newbie games where lurkers are often people who are just unsure of what to say.
Alright, good, thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure by when you said "flush out" - I usually think "get rid of" but you simply meant "expose" or force them to play. Fair enough.
From what I read of your other game you have admitted some hesitation as town to read people. Do you have even a slight thought on the most discussed lynch targets (from what I can tell - scott/Nydus/Moosy/Sulfurus)?
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On July 12 2015 08:56 Fidei86 wrote:
You said about ten posts ago that you were going to be town-hunting at first. Now you're saying that you're scum-hunting. Which is it??
I said I'm changing things up. :3
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Oh man I feel bad. XD I'm like anti-town at best right now. We'll see where this goes. These posts are starting to get interesting.
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noobking gets town points as well for the double standard argument on Grokken in addition to the case on MD.
Another thing of note - for MD - question for you
On July 12 2015 07:49 MoosyDoosy wrote:
For people wondering, what I do is find townreads and work from there so don't expect me to be finding Mafia anytime soon.
In the earlier stages of the game, and especially when there are at least 3-4 individuals that have little to no posting with (I think approx 19h left in the day cycle), how do you expect to ultimately decide whom you want to lynch for the D1?
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On July 12 2015 12:15 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 08:56 Fidei86 wrote:
You said about ten posts ago that you were going to be town-hunting at first. Now you're saying that you're scum-hunting. Which is it?? I said I'm changing things up. :3
You're not particularly answering the question. Maybe it might help if you answered the one I just posed.
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On July 12 2015 09:57 TJHuggins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 08:56 Fidei86 wrote:
You said about ten posts ago that you were going to be town-hunting at first. Now you're saying that you're scum-hunting. Which is it?? I think you're reaching a bit here. This post seems so opposite to everything else you've written this game. What gives?
I don't think I agree with this sentiment TJ. I think I know what Fidei is trying to achieve with the question, but I'll let him sort it out.
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EPT
