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I've returned. Catching up and delving into Bourneq.
On April 14 2015 05:25 Trfel wrote:
I disagree with your assessment that page 14 was basically a decade ago. And I disagree with your scumread of prplhz. When I read his play, even from page 16, he is one of the two most influential players in the game (along with Soren333). He's constantly pushing things, not just asking questions. You claim he isn't doing anything, I disagree.
Trfel, I think you might need to read Stutters' post again (bolded).
On April 14 2015 02:30 Stutters695 wrote:
Still a bunch of one-liners, but if you look at a town Prpl game when he's trying to lead a lynch, he provides reasoning, even if its lumped in between 10 one-liners. Scum Prpl tries to avoid being accountable by providing loose reads which barely justify his vote enough to not be lynched himself.
[...]
He again shifts his suspicion off of his lynch target for no apparent reason. He's basically done nothing consistently, hiding it behind empty accusations and frequent posting.
I realise Stutters has said "done nothing consistently" but the crux of his argument as I understand his case is that the quality of prplhz's reads are poor or unsupported/misleading, etc as scum.
Stutters, it might help those of us not familiar with prplhz's town play to illustrate the progression in reads when he's town versus what he's just illustrated to be scum and you're calling his reads loose reads. I say this because two of us (namely Rasputin and myself) are used to a scum prplhz who did absolutely nothing (Titanic 7) and afked much of the game.
The only question I have for Trfel is how he knows or concludes that prplhz isn't misleading, since the difference in reads according to Stutters indicates intentional misleading. And a player can be influential and push things (or mislynches in this case) as mafia.
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EBWOP - Trfel, you are making the conclusion that he is influential and that he pushes things, but he can certainly do this as mafia.
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On April 14 2015 05:59 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 05:55 Half the Sky wrote:
EBWOP - Trfel, you are making the conclusion that he is influential and that he pushes things, but he can certainly do this as mafia. Uh, what gives you this idea? I mean, I'm sure it's technically possible, but it's also possible for a 50+ page filter Artanis to be mafia (Guardians). It's just extremely unlikely. There are only a small number of mafia players on this site who will actively lead the thread as mafia, and given what I've heard about prplhz's scum play (which seems to be in complete agreement with what you are saying), I feel that prplhz would almost never push the thread this much as scum.
Here's what I was getting at. I didn't recall whether you have ever played with prplhz and were coming up with that conclusion yourself or whether you were just going off of what others said. Especially as Stutters paints a slightly different perspective of his scumgame than what I'm recalling.
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On April 14 2015 02:19 rsoultin wrote:
:/ that case against oneg looks pretty good hts lol ><
mrt, i need to get some food myself and read through everything again, clearly
Did you have any initial thoughts by the way if you've re-read? Especially as I recall you were uncomfortable with Onegu early on and he provided some reasons for scumming you post lynch D1 that you took issue with IIRC.
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On April 14 2015 06:16 Trfel wrote:
Here's what I was getting at. I didn't recall whether you have ever played with prplhz and were coming up with that conclusion yourself or whether you were just going off of what others said. Especially as Stutters paints a slightly different perspective of his scumgame than what I'm recalling. I'm mostly going off of what others (particularly rsoultin) have said (before this game began). I have experience playing with town prplhz, and in this game, he's been noticeably better than I remember him being in games where he was town. Because of this, I don't feel that I need to check his scum meta, it's clear enough already.
If there is actual reason to be suspicious of him (possibly the points that Stutters695 made about prplhz's end of day actions, which I'm not in a position to evaluate at this time), I can revisit him later.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
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EBWOP - Quote box fail.
On April 14 2015 06:16 Trfel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 06:11 Half the Sky wrote:On April 14 2015 05:59 Trfel wrote:On April 14 2015 05:55 Half the Sky wrote:
EBWOP - Trfel, you are making the conclusion that he is influential and that he pushes things, but he can certainly do this as mafia. Uh, what gives you this idea? I mean, I'm sure it's technically possible, but it's also possible for a 50+ page filter Artanis to be mafia (Guardians). It's just extremely unlikely. There are only a small number of mafia players on this site who will actively lead the thread as mafia, and given what I've heard about prplhz's scum play (which seems to be in complete agreement with what you are saying), I feel that prplhz would almost never push the thread this much as scum. Here's what I was getting at. I didn't recall whether you have ever played with prplhz and were coming up with that conclusion yourself or whether you were just going off of what others said. Especially as Stutters paints a slightly different perspective of his scumgame than what I'm recalling. I'm mostly going off of what others (particularly rsoultin) have said (before this game began). I have experience playing with town prplhz, and in this game, he's been noticeably better than I remember him being in games where he was town. Because of this, I don't feel that I need to check his scum meta, it's clear enough already. If there is actual reason to be suspicious of him (possibly the points that Stutters695 made about prplhz's end of day actions, which I'm not in a position to evaluate at this time), I can revisit him later.
Fair enough.
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On April 14 2015 07:53 rsoultin wrote:
meh rereading onegu i think half of why i dropped him is cause he was in the hospital lol >< there were several things bugging me about his play, and while i still think it's hugely risky for him to push that mislynch so vocally as scum, it's not like it's impossible
i'm very susceptible to townreading people i like >< (that's not to say i don't like you if i scumread you xP lol)
When you say push that ML, you mean the plotspot mislynch? I think he made the one comment and that was it. Or do you mean Breshke being risky?
Well Onegu had voted after (and you can see on page 46 of the thread) Breshke and Bourneq weren't switching and only 3 were on the Stutters wagon (I switched right after he voted), so his vote was also inconsequential. His scumclaim comment initially came with 2 people on the wagon.
He would have been a solo vote on Breshke had he not switched and taking the scumclaim/martyr thing into consideration as well as the fact he wasn't considering plotspot before that scumclaim makes it more likely he did what he did to get on a wagon so he wouldn't look as poor.
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Bourneq - 2 of 3
On April 12 2015 06:01 LoneMeow wrote:
Final vote count:
TheBloodyDwarf (1): Soren333, Breshke, Tubesock, The Shining, Tubesock
Breshke (0): Onegu
The Shining (1): plotspot
Bourneq (0): prplhz
plotspot (7): Onegu, Breshke, rsoultin, prplhz, Bourneq, Soren333, Stutters695, jarjarbinks, Half the Sky, Onegu
prplhz (0): TheBloodyDwarf
Stutters695 (4): prplhz, Tubesock, TheBloodyDwarf, Half the Sky
Overview
From the looks of voting, Bourneq had voted once all of D1 on plotspot as other players piled up on him. On page 40 of the thread, he wants to vote Ace before voting plotspot, after Rasputin asked him why he wasn't voting Dwarf.
To put his actions into the proper context, I asked him very early game his experience in mafia and he'd responded (paraphrasing) that whilst he had watched some video mafia, this was his first ever time playing it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=8#147
Read Progression
After making some initial comments on Ace, Onegu and plotspot, he starts off by discussing Dwarf as scummy.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=322&topic_id=480171
He supports his points (when asked) why Dwarf is scummy.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=18#342
My initial read on Bourneq was scum but Bourneq replies with a plausible explanation for why he's newb town:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=18#344
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=18#349
The only problem here is that newb scum could still fake that explanation and after prompting him to think about people's alignment in my initial scumread, let's see if he takes that to heart.
His first mass list post has the following as scum reads:
JJB as possibly mafia
Ace possibly mafia or a quiet town not contributing
prp as looking "more and more" scum to him
plotspot "screaming" scum to him
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=28#541
When challenged on this, he furthers his points on plotspot as mafia
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=28#559
First potential sign of trouble - policy lynch over scum lynch
He suggests that if he had to vote "right now" it'd be Ace for inactivity. This was after he hard scummed plotspot.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=31#614
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=32#625
THIRTEEN MINUTES LATER (per timestamp) prp asks him "who is most likely to be scum" - he replies Bloody Dwarf
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=32#627
prp calls attention this (page 33) whilst he's AFK, and Rasputin pinged him prior.
About fifteen hours later - he re-cases plotspot and ultimately votes him.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=39#767
That said, it's apparent that he has jumped from scumread to scumread.
Let's see what happened in those 15 hours when Bourneq was afk. Aside from him getting pinged.
1 Breshke votes plotspot (page 34).
2 2h later Shining replaces Ace - may lend some credence to not voting Ace's slot.
3 rsoultin and prplhz both vote plotspot (page 35)
4 Tube votes TBD. (page 37) But later comtemplates a switch to plotspot.
So overall we have a general shift towards plotspot, and to re-emphasize his explanation:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=40#789
On April 11 2015 23:30 Bourneq wrote:
My reasoning at the time that if Ace is not a mafia scared of posting or just flat out staying out of the game as a tactic, then he is at least to most useless town. Since he is not posting and thus not contributing anything then even if he was town it would not be a massive loss for us since he is not helping anyway.
That being said I would wrather lynch somebody we can say is the most likely mafia and I will not be voting ace today. In fact,
##Vote Plotspot
There are a few issues with this post. On one hand he discusses Ace for being useless, 15 hours later, and well after Ace replaced out. This would imply that he's out of touch with the thread right?
Problem is, if he's out of touch with the thread, he should be voting his most likely scumread, and that's The Bloody Dwarf before he AFKed...
Although he's cased plotspot before, he responded with TBD as the most scummy. What makes this even worse is that when Stutters queried him on having too many scumreads, he gives a noncomittal if not evasive answer to Stutters on the two people he'd lynch. I'd checked the context and it makes me think that he's trying to keep his options open here and vote where the thread is swinging.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=32#622
On April 11 2015 05:12 Bourneq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 05:07 Stutters695 wrote:
Bourneq: You listed myself, onegu, rsoultin, prpl, jarjar, ace and Bloody as null/scummy. That's obviously too many people to be scum and we can only lynch one today. Ignore Ace (assume he's dead either way for this question), who do you lynch today and what makes them scum?
Anyone else here? I only count 2 people I put as scum. I said I was leaning towards this or that on some people but I did not list them as scum.
Bourneq proceeds to hang around at EoD. When we talk about Stutters, he does not switch. No posting since post-lynch.
Summary:
1 Open-ended (quoted) answer to Stutters on scum reads. I interpret this as keeping options open.
2 Was queried multiple times on the read switches from plotspot to TBD to Ace (who would be policy) to plotspot. Gives an answer to prplhz saying that TBD was most likely scum.
3 Vote on plotspot occurred after thread sentiment swung plotspot's way
I feel these are all scum traits/behaviour, not considering the inactivity.
I also feel something is not adding up in the jump from TBD as "most likely scumread" to plotspot as "most likely scumread" and taking the context of progression, it looks too much like #1 to me.
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On April 14 2015 08:37 Stutters695 wrote:
[...]
In Titanic it's more of the same. He "has a hard time" establishing actual scum reads, while in his town games he's much more sure of himself.
Phone posting so I can pull up specifics later, but if you read just his filter in those games you'll see what I mean.
Fair enough. I'm up a little later tonight again, so I can look into this. Thanks for the detailed explanations.
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Following what I just posted on Bourneq I need to know why
1 He didn't name his two scumreads when prompted by Stutters
2 What made plotspot the most likely scum when 15 hours before TBD was the most likely scum and he was AFK that time.
3 Why push a policy lynch over any of his scum lynches.
1 and 2 being the more of the important questions IMO.
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Going to review Stutters.
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On April 14 2015 07:43 jarjarbinks wrote:
got in and read up
lol hey Trf.....sooooo....its been awhile...lol
first readthrough of hts's case was pretty good. really looking forward to the other two.
also i'm pretty sure Trf's first case is longer than at least two people's filters in this game lol
Case on Bourneq is on previous page. Would appreciate your feedback.
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On April 14 2015 09:24 rsoultin wrote:
lol i don't disagree with you? it's the main thing that's been keeping me from voting him up to this point, just because...such a god-awful obviously bad way to play scum >< like i'd feel like the biggest imbecile on the planet if at end of game he ends up being scum just cause he's like the poster child for scummy play this game lol
i'm just confused how you have a townread on him
My first tinfoil hat theory this game: What if this game is like Down Under 2 where the mafia team is relatively inactive?
Pass the tinfoil anyone? 
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Also would appreciate any feedback from anyone in this game NOT currently scumreading Bourneq.
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On April 14 2015 09:31 rsoultin wrote:
that said...the almost sleepy nature of the thread lends credence to that theory? i wouldn't call it tinfoil
Yeh, PoE is generally something I give more weight to in latter stages of the game, and we're still in D2 atm. But given that it's happened, it does weigh in the back of my mind, but I feel we'd need help in part from the blues to help connect the dots on that one before definitely pushing that direction in lategame (D4 or beyond).
Similar to how Slam came out with his DT checks in Titanic D5 (I think).
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Lynching Dwarf would be policy for me at the moment.
Rasputin - what are your arguments in favour of Bourneq being town? Or if you said it before, can you quote it please?
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Stutters, you still in thread? I wanted to ask you two key questions regarding your actions D1.
D1, you expressed that Breshke was mafia. You considered prplhz and plotspot for lynch. You pushed Breshke in two posts, and I know you were AFK a bit from the thread D1, but ultimately voted plotspot after a load of people had done so.
I have two questions for you.
1 As a veteran, why were you so sure that plotspot was scumclaiming and not martyring? I understand some vets are familiar with martyring happening and prp has brought it up himself.
2 I know someone else queried you on it but I'm not seeing the response in your filter - had your thoughts on Breshke changed since D1? And if you were sure of Breshke, why didn't you push him further D1?
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LOL that's three, but yeh you get my drift.
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I'm trying to make sense of your actions D1 (besides inactivity) because I had trouble initially seeing town motivation. You said you would "look into" plot and prp, I know you are pushing the latter now, but I'm having trouble drawing the connection from "well he might be suspicious" (when you wanted Breshke's head at the time) to OMG scumclaim.
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EBWOP
Last post was directed at Stutters.
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EPT
