Mandatory balance talk:
Balance was greatly in favor of town. It should have been a 1 shot vig and an unaware miller to make it more balanced without changing the game set-up too much. A rb on scum would also have worked, but it would still be in favor of town because it isn't standard that the vigi claims D1.

The reason why a 2-shot vigi is so strong is because town gets 2 extra lynches/information during the night. This means this town got a copcheck and a vigi shot for the first 2 nights. This is way too much.

It could also be balanced with a 1shot vigi on both teams. The miller then could have been made aware. An aware miller counts for a town role. Or practically 0.75 town role, but in theory you should just count it as a full town role. Making it 3 vs 2 in the power role count.

Hosts also need to balance their games around the amount of ml needed. In this normal town there is a scenario that town loses after 5 ml and need only 3 correct lynches... This doesn't make sense. Especially with all the information roles they have. There are 10 townies and 3 have roles, that leaves 7 people and town can ml 4 out of those without losing? That's a big no.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

February 11 2015 15:06 GMT

#5649

On February 11 2015 23:18 Half the Sky wrote:

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You were vehement in obs and scum QT, but whatever you say, please take this into account when you comment:

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Artanis is horrible in balancing games, most people on the balance committee are. This is a cold fact. You can't even argue this fact with me because I would just laugh your arguments away. Almost everything Artanis wrote there is dismissable by other mechanics in this game.

For starters. He uses 7 vs 2 as a standard for small games but that is standard for minis, why he starts balancing a normal small game starting from a mini is beyond me but ok... He also forgets that the this mini standard only works with a doc. The reason why it is a doc is that a docsafe doesn't change the amount of ml needed, it only gives information, so it is just a mechanic that scum needs to work around. This game wasn't a mini, it was a small game.

the standard for small games is 9 vs 3. This means 3 ml and loss for town, but most of the times a doc/veteran/jailer/rb is added into the mix to change it to a 4 ml set-up. With the rb/jailer also being able to stop the scum nk. So a 9 vs 3 set-up with one of the above roles is balanced. Maybe slightly in favor of scum. Let's say 55%

Now every game should start with a 9 vs 3 set-up and 1 protection role. Veteran/rb being the weak protection roles, doc/jailer standard. You also have to understand that each extra role added is good for town. Because being able to claim a role is very strong. Especially if it is a role scum can't leave alive. Every town role = a smaller lynchpool.

Now if we look how this game deviated from that:

cop vs framer (town favored because extra roles, this is slightly town favored)
+1 townie vs 2 shot vig (wtfbbq town favored) *
aware miller (town favored)

* why +1 townie vs 1 shot vig is already townfavored:
Some host add a vigi because they run a 10 vs 3 set-up instead of a 9 vs 3 set-up. The +1 townie is slightly scumfavored because how bigger the game gets the easier it is for scum to hide, but the 1 shot vigi negates this effect completely because town now gets the power to shoot a townie at will. So the +1 townie added in the set-up just means that the worst townie will get shot during the night, while the +1 townie might be a total boss.

Artanis also believes that a town shooting 2 towns is equally balanced as a doc saving one person. But this is already not true. A town vigi shooting 2 towns is way better for town than a doc saving 1 town. A doc saving 1 town means that town sentiment is correct, the saved townie is important.
a town vigi shooting 2 towns is so much better for town because they know they are wrong and their lynchpool gets way smaller. It is insane information. So many games are lost because towns cannot adept their view on the game and mafia can shoot the smart townies away, with a 2 shot vig the mafia nk gets way less valuable. What I want to say is that a 9 vs 3 game with a 2 shot vig isn't terrible. It just makes for a faster game if town is totally wrong. Making it 10 vs 3 and a 2 shot vig so that town can always have 3 ml just proves to me that Artanis is pretty terrible at balancing the game because he doesn't understand how roles and extra information works.

I think that is everything I need to write about the balance of this game. Summary of my 2 posts:

1) Town players played very strong, even with a balanced set-up scum might have lost (75%). I would have been shot anyway because a 1 shot vig is balanced. I was impressed by this town. Kuddos.
2) Hosts need to learn how to balance their games. It just makes me feel better if something very simple is done right, instead of horribly wrong. This game was NOT balanced.
3) I am a fan of anything Artanis does except his balancing.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

February 11 2015 15:10 GMT

#5651

Because the C9++ setup adds in roles and therefore makes it 13.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

February 11 2015 15:21 GMT

#5652

Or maybe because there is a chance on a vigi and a chance on not a doc.

I say 9 vs 3 + protection is standard. But I could as easily say 10 vs 3 is standard without protection and then with protection you need to remove a townie. But that sounds weird.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

February 11 2015 15:30 GMT

#5655

On February 12 2015 00:21 Half the Sky wrote:

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What are your thoughts on the alternative setup that I would have used? Any better or no?
Town: 1-shot vig, with a nerfed medic (no protection 2 nights in a row) v scum RB.

If you play 10 vs 3 this is pretty ok.

1 shot vig negates the +1 townie and gives the power to town on who to shoot.
1 medic save would then again give town a 4ml before loss game.
Scum RB negates the ability for a town lynchbait to simply claim the role and get away with it. So the vigi/doc can't save themselves from the lynch and still be able to shoot/save.

I call this setup slightly in favor of scum because scum can rb medic. You add notifications of RB to balance this, because getting rb on N1 mostly indicates this person is town. But not always obviously.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

February 11 2015 15:34 GMT

#5656

On February 12 2015 00:27 kitaman27 wrote:
Kinda off topic, but C9++ has town winning 15% more often than mafia based on the mafia scum statistics so it probably shouldn't be considered as some type of standard.

42.5 vs 57.5 isn't bad if you rng everything. Roles are insane hard to balance. And C9++ can have a lot.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

February 11 2015 15:43 GMT

#5658

Yeah, the person who thought that a self aware miller is just as annoying for town as an unaware miller makes me smile. Because he clearly thought so looking at this set-up.

Koshi

Belgium38797 Posts

February 11 2015 17:15 GMT

#5666

On February 12 2015 00:46 Half the Sky wrote:

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Last question on balance for you Koshi - notification balances, do hosts tend to split up save or RB notifications to help with balance? I mean if you tell a scummer or a town that they were saved or even tracked (if a tracker obv applied) or something, that could spoil things, I dunno...

More information = better for town.

Notifications can be really strong, so don't take them lightly. For example letting both doc/saved person know they are saved is pretty insane. But if scum knows this, they need to play around it. Which might be a serious pain in the ass.

Being tracked or watched is never notified.