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Damdred
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Town Leans: Palmar is my top town, he shows what seems genuine interest. He pressures people is involved in almost every topic has follow up on what he says. Today Palmar is that top town. VE is most likely town I think, I probably wouldn't listen to people wanting to lynch him today unless he did some really out there. Robik I wouldn't lynch today at this point I have a pretty strong town feeling from him. Would lynch today: Kush: Where did kush go? He said he was reading but never did anything since, not saying that kush can't be lazy as town but he generally has some thoughts. SL: I think the gameplay is decently different and leaves something to be desired from his normal game play. I'm not sure about Bresh yet, and even though JAT is in the game I can not really remember much of what he has done so that worries me. And sciberbia making a town case and so many hard defending ls has me worried. | ||
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On December 17 2014 11:45 sciberbia wrote: + Show Spoiler [damdred] + On December 17 2014 11:33 Damdred wrote: I actually have a few good town reads right now my top town is a surprise. Town Leans: Palmar is my top town, he shows what seems genuine interest. He pressures people is involved in almost every topic has follow up on what he says. Today Palmar is that top town. VE is most likely town I think, I probably wouldn't listen to people wanting to lynch him today unless he did some really out there. Robik I wouldn't lynch today at this point I have a pretty strong town feeling from him. Would lynch today: Kush: Where did kush go? He said he was reading but never did anything since, not saying that kush can't be lazy as town but he generally has some thoughts. SL: I think the gameplay is decently different and leaves something to be desired from his normal game play. I'm not sure about Bresh yet, and even though JAT is in the game I can not really remember much of what he has done so that worries me. And sciberbia making a town case and so many hard defending ls has me worried. @damdred Can you explain what you've seen from VE that makes you think he is town? His only reads so far seem to be slight town on marv and mafia on Palmar which you seem to strongly disagree with. Also, can you explain what you mean in the last sentence of that quote where something is worrying you? I don't have to agree with all of someones reads to think that they are town overall or towny at the moment. VEis putting in effort which granted he can do as mafia but I can see where hes coming from and where hes going with what hes saying. Even though we come to different conclusions I can at least understand what hes doing. LS has a ton of people hard defending him based on meta right out of the gate, and that concerns me honestly. | ||
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On December 17 2014 11:47 sicklucker wrote: I always start out day 1 slow if im not tunneling on some mechanic. The threads been dominated by players ive never played with and ls whos been covered to death so I dont feel I have much to add yet. Lets be real Im not a policy lynch ,im hyper active sometimes right sometimes wrong, never afraid to speak my mind(thats how you read me) But I always try Shouldn't matter tell me what you think of someone like JAT or show me wha tyou think of Breshke | ||
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On December 17 2014 11:57 sciberbia wrote: Concerns you because you think LS is scum or you think the people defending him are scum? or both? For the record, I can only recall myself and Bereshke defending him. And I guess marv said the case was "icky" I am not sold either way. Someone shouldn't be judged obviously based solely on meta reasons. For example hen he was scum in student mafia it looked really really close to his town game and it was only a couple things that gave him away. So meta wise he is easy to copy. | ||
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On December 17 2014 12:29 sicklucker wrote: Why are you scum reading me for doing a town thing Giving out town reads for no known reason reeks of tmi and is not a town thing | ||
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On December 17 2014 12:34 Breshke wrote: It was early i was fine with him not caring because there wasn't much to go off. Then i specifically asked him to give reads and he basically refused to. If he refuses to give reads I will assume he has zero. Yes he might play like this often but right now i think it is likely he is mafia because as town he has no reason to withhold reads. Town needs to find and kill mafia to win whereas mafia can just survive. Do you think he is town scrib? Does mafia have a reason not to fake reads or to give legitimate town reads instead of being difficult? | ||
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On December 17 2014 13:40 sciberbia wrote: @VE I find Damdred a bit suspicious because he has avoided substantiating reads. + Show Spoiler [read on VE] + On December 17 2014 11:48 Damdred wrote: I don't have to agree with all of someones reads to think that they are town overall or towny at the moment. VEis putting in effort which granted he can do as mafia but I can see where hes coming from and where hes going with what hes saying. Even though we come to different conclusions I can at least understand what hes doing. Kinda wishy/washy and unsubstantiated for a supposedly strong town read. Says you are putting in effort [granted you can do that as mafia]. And he "understands what you're doing". Just very vague. Like, by this point I have several specific things I could point to to justify my top couple town reads. + Show Spoiler [read on LS] + On December 17 2014 12:01 Damdred wrote: I am not sold either way. Someone shouldn't be judged obviously based solely on meta reasons. For example hen he was scum in student mafia it looked really really close to his town game and it was only a couple things that gave him away. So meta wise he is easy to copy. He seems to dismiss both Palmar's case and my post as inconclusive because they are based on meta reasons. But... they weren't at all based on meta reasons. In fact, neither Palmar nor I have even played with LS before. + Show Spoiler [Palmar] + On December 17 2014 05:59 Palmar wrote: Also, votes on LS people, bro is 84% mafia. Evidence 1 Inherent guilt. He's like the 4th person to post in the thread and apologizes for it. Evidence 2 If it wasn't scummy then what the hell is he trying to say? What does silly mean? What has it got to do with the game at all, and why bring it up as expected or not expected behavior if it isn't alignment indicative. Evidence 3 Highly aware of own meta, and uses it instantly to defend himself against what are basically shit accusations. Evidence 4 When confronted with what is basically a troll accusation, he immediately goes for the defense again. Further, he does not entertain the possibility that me or anyone else pushing him might be mafia, just straight up "look, I'm not mafia". Soooo.... we good? Kill LS? + Show Spoiler [me] + On December 17 2014 11:22 sciberbia wrote: I think LightningStrike is likely town for two reasons. Actually three but I'm omitting one.
I get the feeling he is scum and having trouble coming up with good, specific reasons to justify his stated reads. VE, were you getting the same feeling or do you disagree? @Damdred If you feel like VE is a solid read, can you point to something specific in his filter that you think he would not post as scum? Firstly, saying that VE is a solid read at this point does not mean that I have a strong read on him. That is why he is under the Town LEAN category in my catch up post. Ok, and the point is? You basically repeated what I said. Thats the thing though just because I have a read one way or another doesn't mean I have to turn the read into a huge town post why that person is town. Hes possibly town hes in my town pile today unless he does something or someone puts together a head turning case. This next part is a lie, I say that I hate people hard defending LS based on meta, his meta was brought up by himself (which i really dislike) and bresh talked about it. I think LS has a scum tell that i'd rather not mention until later, but why lie about what I actually said. No where did I even talk about Palmars case you are making things up honestly. On December 17 2014 08:28 VisceraEyes wrote: I REEEEALLY don't like the bolded. It's like trying to throw mafia on marv for literally no reason. Like, it kinda feels like the kind of read Palmar makes as town, but it's on MARV, someone who A) is extraordinarily hard to read by default and B) someone who is likely to have clout moving further into the game. There's a decently high possibility that it was a joke too. Also the thing at the end "But it's okay for now" reminds me of our first game together when he seemed to follow every criticism with something like "but that doesn't bother me much" or "but that's okay" etc. On the plus side, regardless of his alignment, that pretty much makes LS a safe vote! :D I like this post plus the follow up explanation, his call out on me on my entrance post i felt was towny. His post since haven't read as scummy, he has covered people been invested and not tunneled. He is a solid read atm | ||
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On December 17 2014 14:07 VisceraEyes wrote: @Damdred: Scib said it a lot more eloquently than I would have. Your catch-up post reads as obligatory and thrown together, not based on your honest reads but based on what you think you should be commenting on. Given that you found it important to let us know that you were catching up, I was expecting a lot more meat on your catch-up post. ##Vote: Damdred Your explanation of your VE read is decent though, keep talking. Talk that much about one of your mafia reads. Don't really care if my post feels that way I threw my thoughts out their and got some responses on them. I found it important to take time out of my work day to enter the thread even if it was in a bad way and then when i had time posted what i could. Pressure vote really doesn't phase me that much i'm not really worried about dying today as I am town and I won't be killed tonight so have time to find mafia. I will induldge you though and talk more about scummers (and thanks for asking since you know everyone else just wants to focus on my town reads? or things I haven't said). SL is not really interested in pressuring people at all in the game or trying to find scum, he is more interested in trying to find out what people think about him Basically refuses to give reads at one point On December 17 2014 11:52 sicklucker wrote: Like my meta doesint tell me Ls is town yet still. I should read him better then most, I have a few reads that im waiting on too early. Then comes out of no where just two posts later to give one liners On December 17 2014 12:02 sicklucker wrote: sciberbia town, palmer town, ls, town Its really early but not liking the other early posting vets like robik. They seem like sharks circling the newer players who have like 2 posts. and discredits robik in the process while not pointing to any other guilty party when he was only pressuring him earlier. He still does not scum hunt and only talks about Kush and hes null on bresh. His filter is pretty useless at this point (its early game granted) he has made no attempt to push the thread at all, give any thought on whats going on and somehow gave town reads over nothing and escaped pressure on it and lied. He is pretty scummy to me | ||
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On December 17 2014 14:15 sciberbia wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 17 2014 13:58 Damdred wrote: This next part is a lie, I say that I hate people hard defending LS based on meta, his meta was brought up by himself (which i really dislike) and bresh talked about it. I think LS has a scum tell that i'd rather not mention until later, but why lie about what I actually said. No where did I even talk about Palmars case you are making things up honestly. @Damdred My mistake. I was asking you specifically about Palmar's post and my post in a draft of my previous post, but must have ended up deleting it. Still though, Palmar made some points which were not related to meta. I made some points which were not related to meta. Did you not find any of those points convincing either? Or even worth commenting on in relation to Lightning's alignment? I agree with VE that Damdred looks a bit better for his response. Point three would be the most convincing thing that Palmar said, self meta is inherently scummy behavior to me. But LS is prone to do this as has been shown before to do it. The whole push is a bit MEH to me and doesn't make him mafia, honestly i'm a bit hard headed towards LS as I think I understand how to read them. Your post isn't bad i actually liked your post I just don't like town cases on people generally. | ||
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On December 17 2014 14:37 sciberbia wrote: @damdred Well you missed the quote in the middle where he explains why he switches his mind on LS and presumably why he townreads me. So his story kinda checks out right? He was nullish on LS, read my post on why I think LS is town and liked it, so as a result he has townreads on both myself and LS. The really concerning thing about sicklucker, to use your words, is that he is not "pushing the thread" or "pressuring people", which I assume is an established part of his town meta, right? Yea, maybe still his other town reads really come out of no where. Generally SL will post whatever the hell he wants as town any idea or analysis to talk and he just isn't here "pushing the thread". And in my experience town SL finds scummy things be they wrong or right and talks them into the ground. | ||
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On December 18 2014 03:47 Coagulation wrote: so its roughly 24 hours into the game at this point and actually reasonable to formulate opinions on the game so I will drop some reads for you people who are not fucking retarded. Damdred - wishy washy and try hard and fixated on me for some reason (the easy push). might be scum. Can we talk about this some? I'm confused how i'm doing this. I don't think i've mentioned Coag at all in my filter and never pushed him at all. | ||
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But you seem to be disagreeing just to be doing so? | ||
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On December 18 2014 05:41 sicklucker wrote: Thats like your entire case against me I don't think you've actually read my case then, the case had very little to do with activity level but based on you doing nothing with the appearance of being here sorta like you are still doing. On December 18 2014 06:05 sicklucker wrote: I think dandreds a really good lynch. Hes a pretty weak mafia. I know this from that game we played against you ve. Like ive been on his team I know how he functions. He trys to keep a low radar and tunnel on one person I think thats what hes doing here. Hes barely given a read besides me. I also read dandred really well ive said this multiple times and have staked previous games on him being town, while being ride or die with him. I think its super logical a mafia dandred tunnels me, he thinks im a weak town player which is probably true(see his pregame post) and he knows I do read him well as weve been in every game together always on the same team You do not know my mafia meta at all, you played scum with me one game where I was being super lazy generally I play really different then what I did that game. As scum I don't go super low radar and tunnel, I bus the fuck out of one of my team mates for most of the game until they get lynched or i'm lynched and their so much wifom in the air usually (as long as the person doesn't act scummy taht is) that they have good cred going forward. LIke you aren't even telling people why im' scum in any of your posts you are just saying that you can read me well but don't show anything why i'm actually scum you just drop it. Besides this I was a bit hesitant about JAT going in today and he really picked up his game. He'll probably call me an idiot for having doubts about him but he looks better today. | ||
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On December 18 2014 09:04 VisceraEyes wrote: I think SL is town based on what I've read so far, and JAT is giving me the willies. Generally speaking his Words-Per-Post is MUCH higher when he's town, and he's calling out LS for town-reading me (correctly) which is really really bad for town. I could maybe lynch JAT, but he's not at the top of my list today. Right now I think I'd rather lynch into Coag/Kush because their chances to help town if they are town DOES NOT outweigh the possibility that they are just fucking off as mafia. Aside for lynching into Coag/Kush for fucking off whats the scummiest thing in the thread to you | ||
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On December 18 2014 09:53 VisceraEyes wrote: You mean besides your coming to the thread to be seen "reading up" only to follow it up with what basically amounts to a summary list of actives? Because that's the scummiest thing in the thread to /me/ but I recognize that it doesn't necessarily make you scum. You so silly VE | ||
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I'm really not trying to be scummy i'm trying to give as many thoughts to the going on even if my intro which was late was super bad. | ||
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On December 18 2014 11:24 VisceraEyes wrote: Well no one TRIES to be scummy bby, it just happens when they scum. <3 Baby doll i'm not scum but i'm on every scum list besides Palmar | ||
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He misrepresents certain things to make me look scummy. His reads have no backing behind them and are just one word.Most of them come out of the blue and do not change over time,the most telling of this is LS read which he did not even develop into just sheeped onto someone elses towncase. Complains about people poking at newer people but can't say why what they are doing is bad. Is not really scum hunting at all it seems. On Marv: Hes not being marv, not really giving much thoughts and his filter is really small for so far into d1  | ||
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On December 18 2014 11:38 sciberbia wrote: sounds like a good deal ##Unvote ##Vote: marvellosity Did you look at all of those filters and how is your scum list coming | ||
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On December 18 2014 12:12 sciberbia wrote: The underlined is not true. In fact his reads changing over time is a big reason I'm leaning town on him+ Show Spoiler + see my next post This is also not true. In the post you are quoting he says exactly why he thinks you are scum and the reason he gives is perfectly reasonable. It looks to me like you are misrepresnting him and not the other way around. ...His read sporadically changed to sheeping you from a town case you made. That is not developing a read, thats sheeping an ok post out of nothing. His reads haven't really changed but we will be arguing semantics as I will hold that he is not doing anything or scum hunting on this point. And no hes not explaining why I am scum, he is trying to show meta wise why I am scum when he is doing nothing of the sort. He is taking one game out of many where I have been scum and I was being super lazy, so no his reasoning is not good and its horrible. | ||
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On December 18 2014 12:31 sciberbia wrote: @Damdred Well idk how you define changing/developing reads, but to me it looks like the only reads he hasn't changed over the course of the game are the palmar one and possibly the sciberbia one. What is horrible about his argument that you are scum? He said you have been under the radar this game, and that you are mainly tunneling one person. Meta arguments aside, both of those are scum traits, and I would contend both are reasonable descriptions of your play this game. Do you disagree? I haven't been under the radar at all, I made a very loud and horrible entrance post that got attention drawn to me, I gave reads some were challenged and talk has been had with me and about me. So no i'm right on the radar and i've obviously been involved in things. Tunneling is not totally scum oriented at all, most people get tunneled at one point or another. While I admit that I scum read SL I at least try to understand why people town read him or do not scum read him. And i'm not ignoring others and giving opinions *shrug* So no i don't think its a fair assessment | ||
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On December 18 2014 12:48 sciberbia wrote: well the fact that you keep talking yourself up reflects well on you I guess. has anything that's been said by or about SL recently changed your opinion on him? How confident are you currently that he is scum? SL basically said hes not moving his vote until Kush plays, it plays into my idea that hes just having the appearance of doing things instead of actually doing them. I'm not getting the same thing you are with the quote stream about robik, he said things, he got pressured about it then backed off. I do not get a towny vibe from that at all, the only thing he has somewhat stuck to is scum reading me (which he doesn't have his vote on) and policy lynching kush until kush plays. So no nothing is really changing my read on him currently. 72% right now | ||
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On December 18 2014 13:20 sciberbia wrote: See before you were upset because his reads weren't changing, but now that I've pointed out that his reads are in fact changing, you are upset because there is only 1 thing he has stuck to. I'm not saying SL is definitely town, but the feeling I'm getting from you is that you're going to call him scum regardless of what he posts or any points that anyone else brings up in his defense. But you are intent on hard defending him no matter what and twn reading him for no reason what so ever. In the context of the post the only thing he stuck to under a small amount of pressure was scum reading me. His town reads over the large didn't get him pressure. I"ll town read sl when he shows that he is town i'm not afraid to change reads ya know | ||
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On December 18 2014 13:35 sciberbia wrote: Man if you are town we think about this game completely differently. I'm going to stop thinking about the damdred vs SL storyline for now. I'd like to see you both make some cases on suspects other than each other. There's more than 1 scum in this game The game needs to be though differently from different perspectives or we cannot win the game at all, not sure why this is even an issue. Plus SL is still somewhat dodging questions and is just randomly popping one or two sentences in and leaving either way i won't convince you of anything especially since you have me as scum and SL as town lol. meh i'll find other scum when i filter dive but can only lynch one a day | ||
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Like I slept on it and thought about it this morning. I still do not like SL, and scrib chainsaw defending SL has me weirded out but i'm going to try to ignore both and look at other filters. And showdown was awesome <3 | ||
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Cause palmar is super towny, though in the back of my mind there will be the doubt that marv had palmar bus him hard from the start which more than likely wouldn't happen. | ||
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On December 19 2014 03:31 LightningStrike wrote: Honestly since no one is going for my case I might as well join. ##Unvote ##Vote Marvellosity Marv claimed scum why wouldn't we vote him out? | ||
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Why you do this thing and not let LS respond to me! | ||
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On December 19 2014 03:46 IAmRobik wrote: I want you to show me where marv claimed mafia. Its called a trap robik, its pretty plain reading the thread that marv literally didn't claim scum. His actions and giving up and not talking are in line with his scum game and not giving up his team mates but he did not say I am scum. So yea ok | ||
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On December 18 2014 19:46 marvellosity wrote: this is why i don't get why people ever scumread me when i am town. so ludicrous. i really wanted to try posting a lot less as town this game because playing scum is totally unsustainable atm. alas. Besides this lolz | ||
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I've given thoughts etc, not much more to do | ||
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On December 19 2014 03:52 LightningStrike wrote: I personally would go for a Kush lynch as I made a small case for lynching Kush but if you guys feel like you can contribute to the case I'm all ears. So you would take all of us off marv to get on kush? What if kush is town are you that sure hes scum? | ||
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The marv wagon is a huge bus honestly, I need to reread robik when I get home. | ||
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On December 19 2014 09:05 sicklucker wrote: This may or may not be true I havent looked into it myself but a mafia would totally say this to decrease the town circle That's how a demotivated marv works. Either way I'm not scrum look elsewhere | ||
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VE approach is to lynch half the game and hope his town reads are right lolz | ||
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I'm the Vet, i was not shot, theres a serial killer that we have to find as well | ||
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Balance wise there is only 3 power roles for town more than likely, maybe four with a serial killer. If someone else comes forward as a power role I would lynch between them and me soon as you can, doesn't make much sense balance wise. I am not going to get shot at all because I look pretty scummy and there was enough going on in the thread to look at me in a bad way and if they really want i'm sure they could role block and shoot me. | ||
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On December 20 2014 05:42 27ninjabunnies wrote: Prob not, unless SK shot you. Or you did some super towny things in upcoming days. But basically now I feel like you are claiming just to scathe by. Its all about information now not about scathing by | ||
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Kush coug sl two are policy lynched basically. Bresh had a weird push on cog that looks like a bus sorta. Kush kusy doesn't do anything. SL is possible SK. top town palmar scrib ve | ||
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palmar wouldn't go hard against mafia d1 as an SK I think its just bad play and he's not scum. sc has good thoughts I've covered ve before | ||
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It's the right play unless you think we have 4 power roles. Scum wouldn't shoot me anyway | ||
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Its not hard to deduce from the nightkills in this case what's going on with the setup | ||
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Scum would of never shot me ever but go ahead policy me | ||
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#1) I was never going to get shot during the course of this game. Their are at least 3 people ahead of me in towniness that would get shot before me 4 at the most currently. No amount of towniness would get me shot out of Palmar,Bunnies, scri etc. It just probably would not happen. #2) The amount of people left alive is a small number after last night. There are one mafia left and one serial killer. The amount of suspects is already at a all time low because of the Marv lynch and the amount of night kills and information we can gather from that, as such the best play was to have the vigilante claim (nb did so) which took away a potential mislynch as nb was not universally town read and it took out a mafia. As the game setup goes a third power role makes the most sense and therefore I claimed which is the correct play to get as much information out their. And a bit of wifom its suicide to claim vet in this circumstance as mafia or SK, and I am not a bad player. While my claim does not confirm me as town just as setup speculation, YOU SHOULD NOT LYNCH AN UN CC'D POWER ROLE THIS DAY. It is a total policy lynch based on the fact that its the wrong play in peoples minds. If you all decide to go on the way of a policy lynch on me you are fools in deed. Anyway heres where I am in the game. Town: 8. 27NinjaBunnies- Confirmed Vigilante Never Lynch this person like ever. 2. Palmar- Palmar to me is almost confirmed town. If you check the game Fantasy Football (the first one) which Geript hosted you can see Palmar as a third party poisoner. While I am not an expert in Palmar meta, his push on mafia Marv and putting himself out their to be potentially NK'd by scum wouldn't be correct as he was universally town read. And as scum Palmar would be one of the top candidates for the NK from the SK. More than likely both sets were trying to play dodge the medic that could be there on Palmar and not overlap shots, his whole push on Marv and subsequent posts look really town and he looks totally involved in the going on in the thread. And as such outside of confirmed Bunnies he is my top town. 1. VisceraEyes- VE in the early goings in the thread shows thought and pressure on me when I first entered, and continued with that pressure to see if I had thoughts behind what I was posting. He has followed up his posts instead of just leaving them hanging, he draws conclussions from things that he has posted in the thread and follows through with what he has promised. Overall I think VE has been critical and has shown a decent amount of paranoia in the thread and is probably my second top town at this junction of the game. 13. LightningStrike- I think LS is pretty towny about how he is going about things. His early postings while they felt a bit forced and a bit weird is not out of line with how he normally plays. He is not sheeping onto everything that someone says which is his normal scum meta instead he has seemed to latch onto something that he himself has brought out and is pushing it because he thinks it is right. I really think he is town little to no chance of being the SK in this setup. 9. Kushm4sta- This is my weakest town read out of everyone. Kush has a habit lately to be busy and just not be able to put in time as town, this can be seen in several games lately. The little that he has posted has seemed well reasoned and the scum games that I have generally seen him does not have him defending people who are goin to be lynched but hopping on that lynch wagon and riding it till its gone. His posts since he had a bit more time show thought and purpose behind what hes posting. Though its weak he shouldn't be the lynch today at all. Scum: For the scum I am left with three suspects, one of them is a policy lynch (coag) for being useless, his reads being bad and for breshkes filter where it sorta looks like a bus attempt in action with the sudden switch from town reading to total scum read looking for cred later. But it is still a policy lynch all in all since coag is not going to do anything. With Sciberbia I just have a weird tingling with him, he seems towny at first glance and some of the things that he has posted have seemed ok. But looking at him the best thing he has posted is a town case on LS, and talked about safe setup and has pushed my lynch for basic policy reasons even going as far as saying their is a great possibility only two PR. There really isn't much scum hunting in his filter and he promised to filter dive and come back with evidence and strangely enough he barely has anything to show for it. I'm not sure why hes getting town read so much by everyone because on closer inspection he really doesn't look as towny as I thought he would, he looks pretty scummy. And he chainsaw defended SL for no reason even though he shouldn't know his alignment while almost everyone has showed doubt of SL SL is just disinterested in the game, which could be because hes in another game. He has had a couple of normal moments for him with his weird tunnels and association reads. I just don't knw if hes fully town here he might be a good shot for the SK. 7. Sciberbia 10. Sicklucker 12. Coagulation | ||
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On December 20 2014 13:49 LightningStrike wrote: I agree with all but the scip and sicklucker. I would put sicklucker null for now and Scip did some decent questioning on me and tried to ask me why I thought his opening post was silly and continued on pressuring me a bit before Palmar pressured me hard core. While Palmar was pressuring me he also followed up his read on me based on my reactions to the pressure from him and Palmar. Although I found it odd that 2 mafias were defending me pretty damn hard Day 1 when I not even mafia or sk it just seems weird but I think it because marv looked into my past games and Breshke knows my meta from playing with me twice once town and once and mafia. I feel kind of odd because of the mafia members defending because now they made me look a little bit scummier. I would like you to talk about the bolded some I looked through his filter to see if it was true and i missed it On December 17 2014 05:37 sciberbia wrote: You seem to be implying that the silliness of my first post is scummy? If so, please explain why it is scummy. Or are you simply noting that it is silly? On December 17 2014 10:11 sciberbia wrote: @Palmar Do you still think LS is scum? Here are his questions to you and about you... heres your response On December 17 2014 05:39 LightningStrike wrote: I wasn't trying to say it was scummy I just stating it was just silly that's all :O and here is his...town case On December 17 2014 11:22 sciberbia wrote: I think LightningStrike is likely town for two reasons. Actually three but I'm omitting one.
I really do not see much pressure and honestly the town read on you is interesting, its good actually but it is just a bit weird to me. He never really took much time to look for your alignment and tried to pressure you... | ||
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Thats wifom though but he might be town because of that i kinda believe the roleblock | ||
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This had doc, tracker, vig vs four mafia I believe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/468053-fantasy-football-ffl-mini Think we had three power roles this game as well http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/467155-devils-riddle-mafia had 4 town power roles here I believe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/464332-neat-and-tidy-mini-mafia 3 power roles some of those had 14 players and i didn't feel like looking further it just depends on what the host and balance people think is balanced for scum/town | ||
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[QUOTE][B]On [QUOTE]On December 17 2014 23:51 LightningStrike wrote: Tbh I scum reading kush because in pregame he said would put more time in this game than the other games he was involved in and his first reply he said he liked the songs from Coag which came in like 5 hours after the game started and was reading the thread to catch up and he didn't give his reads or anything insightful in his next post claiming don't Pynch him and I waiting for a reason he's not scum at this point.[/QUOTE] ok this is legitimate and actually it makes me townread you. The explanation is simply that I've been busy. Just because I thought I was going to have time is no guarantee that I will. When I said I liked coag's songs, I already knew that I wasn't going to be able to keep up. The game was already too big for me to read it. So yes, I was unmotivated at that point and indulged my inner coag. [/QUOTE] This post looks towny to me, and theanother earlier he pocketed me a bit in | ||
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On December 20 2014 14:46 sicklucker wrote: This makes you slightly more town. So I read and thought some more, we always have to kill dandred here. Its a hugely risky play but the way mafias losing its one he would make to try to get confirmed with no cc. Theres also that wildcard player around and Ill be honest I have no idea how to find him. My order is dandred then coag then probably me but shit im vt so then ls or kush. Kush has looked better he put in alot of effort for kush. This is for mafia no idea how to find that third party. I dont know what a coag is why hes town read or how to read him so I just want him dead. So you waste a lynch on me with a risky lynch, then you move tommorow to a policy lynch of kush or coag...then maybe you move on to another policy lynch and the games over if none of us are scum which is highly unlikely but yea | ||
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[QUOTE]On December 20 2014 14:49 Damdred wrote: [QUOTE]On December 20 2014 08:26 kushm4sta wrote: [QUOTE][B]On [QUOTE]On December 17 2014 23:51 LightningStrike wrote: Tbh I scum reading kush because in pregame he said would put more time in this game than the other games he was involved in and his first reply he said he liked the songs from Coag which came in like 5 hours after the game started and was reading the thread to catch up and he didn't give his reads or anything insightful in his next post claiming don't Pynch him and I waiting for a reason he's not scum at this point.[/QUOTE] ok this is legitimate and actually it makes me townread you. The explanation is simply that I've been busy. Just because I thought I was going to have time is no guarantee that I will. When I said I liked coag's songs, I already knew that I wasn't going to be able to keep up. The game was already too big for me to read it. So yes, I was unmotivated at that point and indulged my inner coag. [/QUOTE] This post looks towny to me, and theanother earlier he pocketed me a bit in[/QUOTE] How is this post in any way townie? Explain that to me. [/QUOTE] How isn't it? Kush said earlier thatn LS is most likely scum because of being disinterested and kush actually read something that obviously changed his mind. It doesn't mean hes town read forever because he has me pocketed a bit, but i don't think we should lynch kush today. | ||
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I guess ill just content myself with dying | ||
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On December 20 2014 15:51 sciberbia wrote: OK good then let's keep talking. This is what I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around. The daypost was posted. You refreshed, read the daypost, thought all this through, and then made a post claiming vet, all within 60 seconds? Had you already decided to claim regardless of what news the daypost brought? It depended on what happened during the day post. My original plan was to blue drop just enough to draw a shot, but there was a ton of discussion about me being the cop during the night cycle which was horrible. So of course I knew that the scum wouldn't shoot me. Totally horrible on that one, then jat flipped Cop,and I saw two more night kills. The automatic thin to know is that we have an SK and a vig along with a scum kill. We can't have more than three power roles I think. I wouldn't of claimed if we didn't have a vig who was auto claiming, or the cop getting lipped. No reason to shrink the field if that hadn't of happened. I was just thinking as fast as i could at that moment. | ||
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On December 20 2014 16:03 sciberbia wrote: Hm. Why were you so sure you wouldn't be shot? If I recall correctly people were speculating that YOU were the cop. Wouldn't that make you reasonably likely to be shot? Also if you weren't necessarily planning on claiming vet, what were you planning to say about your softclaim when people asked you about it? For one, there was enough suspicion placed on me going into the night and during the night where it was highly unlikely that I would be shot. I think there was to much talk about me softing during the night to get shot, could of drawn a medic or they could of thought i was the vet from that to much attention. And honestly how robik even got damdred is the cop from what he quoted is weird to me. I would of just told people I wasn't cop | ||
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Either way, I think we do have one free mislynch and then it starts getting tight, and coag is the most unreadable person in the game basically at this point and there is nothing to read him on either. I think he might be the best lynch today, What do you think of my thought that bresh sudden change on coag and the way bresh went about trying to get him lynched looks like a bus | ||
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This whole tirade is pretty stupid, coag is yelling about people talking policy lynching him when hes talking about policy lynching kush basically. This whole thing looks so overdone and fake its not even funny. | ||
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Both are suitable kush looks like he's trying somewhat | ||
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In your mind you go for the right play right? | ||
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On December 21 2014 10:48 Palmar wrote: I actually lean (tbf I have no fucking clue how to read them... but I digress) towards the notion that both Coag and Kush are town. Also VE, re-fucking-lax. No need to start a shit storm because some people liked a case on you. If you're actually innocent why not just chill out and explain where it is wrong, instead of throwing a hissy fit. then who is scum | ||
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I thought I could get by on a vet claim and scrum ignore me. I protected Palomar last night and was going to protect bunnies tonight and laugh Tommorow. It was a plan maybe bad I'm sorry | ||
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Like the whole thing wad stupid and I had to do something stupid. | ||
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1) you draw scrums attention to it 2) person has to answer the next day what they meant Knowing how the games setup shows three town or 1 sk 1 mafia left. Town could scratcher off mafia ignores me until I make a save. Its a good plan in avacume. And all you people saying lynch down a list of 've then damdred will lose the game. Especially taking two coinflips to lylo | ||
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Do you literally believe that I sat there and said I'm going to say you don't want to lynch me and I meant that to be taken as a soft? I'm not saying that it doesn't color what you write when you have extra information but I didn't expect rob to run with that phrase or the thread to talk so much during the night about it. Cause he's angry, involved not lurky and involved ineverythingevenif it makes him look meh sometimes | ||
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On December 22 2014 01:10 sciberbia wrote: Are you talking to me? I'm trying to lynch VE actually and I'm trying to figure out your alignment so if you could answer my questions that would be great. God this game is making me want to rip my hair out right now. Talking to Sl with his percentages and just going to afk | ||
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I don't want to vote ve off | ||
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On December 22 2014 03:49 VisceraEyes wrote: The case is not okay. The case is literally "He thought marv was town, he thinks kush is mafia, he doesn't like when people accuse him" That's literally the worst case I've ever seen. It's ok, in that I can understand what he means and your depiction of it is oversimplified. However the case doesn't make you mafia. I've seen you as mafia doesn't seem like this | ||
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.let's do it | ||
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Honestly it's probably Sl. I'd just concede to many people alive | ||
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On December 22 2014 12:41 kushm4sta wrote: i just glanced at coag's filter and i saw some nice reads on a bunch of different people. so yeah i agree he's town. sicklucker then. idk how it was a good list of people kush he just said names and put one setnence for each....and a couple of the lines were wrong | ||
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I mean I wouldn't lynch you tommorow more than likely but i wouldn't take you to lylo. Honestly people just writing off scib as no way possible to be mafia are crazy, the SK could of killed the person he role blocked easily and then he took out the sk to firm up his griponthat town cred. Thats more likely than Palmar being mafia I think, he was much to involved I think early. | ||
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Last night I protected NB, but got roleblocked by the last mafia member. Hypothesis was that Palmar was a bigger threat and if the right people were killed off it would be possible to mislynch me in lylo. Currently the lynch list would look like this to me Coag SL Kush/LS/Scib Sci is the least likely mafia with Coag and SL the greatest chance. | ||
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On December 23 2014 04:36 sicklucker wrote: wow cog is scum hunting wtf I was told he would do nothing. Lynch palmer lynch coag then lynch dandred if hes still alive? I think we win like 99% if we do that Though this post looks so bad for SL, i might move Kush/LS into his position. Such a crazy post might just come from town SL | ||
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I might actually be temped to lynch SL over coag today though its a hard day | ||
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2) In this case the game has been a landslide, NB (confirmed towny due to vig shot) took out bres which swung the game pretty hardcore into town favor but took away the possibility of people becoming better town read. At the same time taking out the SK over the mafia gives people little town credit as mafia can easily push a lynch onto SK and steal town credit if they so choose so the vote patterns on that are suspect. 3) Even though Palmar really did lead the charge onto marv, at least three people in the thread had shown slight worry over Palmars alignment. As such he would of had to play today to defend himself, which is really a 50/50 type thing I don't think that Palmar would of gotten lynched today, his kill more than likely was out of fear of him solving the game raather than taking out confirmed townies. As scum I would of rb me (which they did) and took out the confirmed town, next night kill Palmar or medic depending on how the day vote went. Now they have two players who will (or should never) get lynched in myself or bunnies due to claims on my part and a bullet shot on NB part. So at least one of us will probably be in LYLO which will make it harder for scum. | ||
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On December 23 2014 05:41 sicklucker wrote: But then you didnt die. so I dont even know wtf shouldn't you die dandred? Honestly thats why I think its you mre than likely you have been throwing doubt on me and you think little of my gameplay so you wouldn't be afraid to keep me in the game. | ||
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On December 23 2014 05:50 sicklucker wrote: Oh ya I forgot they have a roleblocker. So like your a useless medic you have no immunity. Which no one brought up yesterday for some reason... but that worked out. So like the only person who I think never makes this kill is ls AND MAYBE you. Me kush coag can make this kill. Scrib too but thats very unlikely So if we kill us 3 we win? Do you guys think dandred would make this kill? You are an idiot SL, just from a setup perspective three town power roles vs 4 Anti Town Roles....totally makes sense. | ||
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On December 23 2014 05:51 sicklucker wrote: Bullshit they have a roleblocker and theres 0 reason to kill you. Your a mislynch target too and an easy vote on me I'm neer getting voted off as a town power role SL so just stop it | ||
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But you need to take a step back and understand this, Just setup talk there is no way possible with as many NK possibilities and with as many scum that we only have two power roles it is so scum favored that it is not even funny. In a balance setup you can't rely on scum and serial killer killing each other off. So no its not scummy for me to say this is insane for you to suggest it. You are just brining narrative and conjecture to try to make me look scummy. | ||
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I'm telling you setup wise there are obviously 4 anti-town (scum) roles and 2 town power roles would totally be overpowered by the scum side, three roles for town would be balanced. This is common sense. | ||
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@LS, Sure you like to sheep people as scum without thinking and pushing no original ideas forward. I think thats part of your scum meta. And honestly you pushed some of your own ideas and tried to push what you wanted through so i'm pretty sure that you are town here. | ||
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Sc would be a last effort probably, we won't get that far hopefully though | ||
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For the first part SL basically cleared himself being an idiot in my eyes going off about kush conceding in another thread because he thought that game was this game. It was quite hilarious and if he does that as mafia he probably deserves to win. So that puts NB, Damdred and SL off the lynch table I think. That leaves, Coag, Kush, Scr LS. We have two mislynches and two night kills potentially. All we have is to figure out, out of this list of 4 who is most likely to be mafia, so we probably waste our two mislynches taking out the unknowables in Coag and Kush then in lylo if Scr is alive we decide between whoever is alive and LS probably. And it really doesn't matter, we kill kush before lylo because no offense to kush hes horrible in lylo and you don't want to rest a game on town or scum kush and don't want someone who has so little content into that part of the game. | ||
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Kush Coag Sciberbia LightningStrike The most likely mafia lie between Kush and Coag more than likely. Plus they have the least amount of content and are the most dangerous to take into lylo. We should more than likely take the safe play and kill them off and hope one of them is scum. Sciberbia has the smallest chance I think out of being scum, there is always tin foil hats going around and its a possibility hes playing a great scum game and got super lucky that the SK killed his RB and he was able to claim RB and just coast to victory. The chance of this is smallish but we shouldn't sleep on it, and scum can still kill the SK but it is much less likely. And you LS I think are town, but its just a list we have to lynch down if you are alive in lylo and we make it that far. I might lynch you. Either way NK will more than likely make it easier, as if scib is town he puts in a ton of work and as scum i wouldn't want to take him to lylo. Overall its a really easy game and we have a list we can lynch down. | ||
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I wouldn't lynch you before kush and coag i think you are towny its just a list lynch at this point. | ||
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On December 23 2014 12:32 LightningStrike wrote: Damdred and Scib you guys want to lynch Kush today because of his actions through the game? Earlier I made a case on him and dismissed as he answered why he was inactive earlier but since then he been extremely active.Some of his posts were contradicting each other like him not going to read the thread saying it was to much but he seemed to read the thread though and his post about his defense on defending himself with the I would surrender now and saying that someone might not which seems scummy to say that. I would probably lynch kush today honestly your early case on him wasn't horrible, his posts do contradict and if we lynch and he flips mafia you get final credit! | ||
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NB, SL and myself are top town atm. sc looks towny, ls looks townt kush and coag are policy. Today if kush and coag are both dead who would we lynch instead. Go thread thoughts | ||
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now we go into lylo or mylo with one or two of kush and coag. And me going bonkers over sc right now. | ||
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Anyway I'm going to filter sc and ls after breakfast | ||
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On December 23 2014 23:59 sciberbia wrote: yea pretty dumb.... Why are you going bonkers over me? Did you see what I wrote last night regarding my D1 post on LS? Also, how worried are you about LS being scum? Cause there exists a real possibility that you fake claim rb as the rb. And you make a case on someone you don't think is SK cause you thought I was | ||
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On December 24 2014 00:07 sciberbia wrote: Well yes I agree I'm not "confirmed" town but you still need a reason to think I'm scum, right? You're not going bonkers over the other nonconfirmed players in the game. Can you also answer regarding what you find scummy about town cases? I want to see how genuine you're being there. Not sure if you are scummy or not exactly, honestly it could be ls. But there isn't a huge fake claim rb possible on him which is the big and correct play if you got lucky enough that ve killed JAT which was the actual rb and was able to fake claim. its hard to defend against narrative though. Like almost impossible since its just conjecture. And yes town cases are scummy by definition, since as mafia it takes 0 effort to town hunt and a lot more to scum hunt. Easy to give town reads that are true rather than false scum reads | ||
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Honestly its in the 4 alive people. Why not come up with a plan ls? | ||
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How will you find scum with the final four coag ls sc and me? | ||
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We should lynch LS today | ||
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On December 17 2014 06:57 LightningStrike wrote: Breshke knows my meta and he making some good points so I got to say he is Town with me. You defend mafia here. On December 17 2014 12:48 LightningStrike wrote: In student he didn't give much on reads and scum hunting as town and as mafia in Campus in the pregame he was so hyped up on the lineup but then mainly lurked and just faded and got lynched for it. He mainly been useless as both town and scum so it hard to judge him meta wise. Heres your first push on Kush, you mention the game that he was scum but the most recent game you played with kush or the two most recent games he was useless town (carol of the bells) and in the last student mafia game he was ok then went inactive the reverse of here basically. YOu give Palmar free town read d1 for no reason based on russia mafia and yet when even palmar says no you still give him free town reads. Looking at your filter you give a ton of free town reads. On December 18 2014 07:42 LightningStrike wrote: Okay why you voting for him? I would like to bring me your case of Marvellosity being scum. Soft defend on marv here? On December 18 2014 12:16 LightningStrike wrote: How about a lynch on Kush I made a case although I dont't it's the best but not the worst one earlier in the thread if you want to check it. A bit more soft defend and push off of marv and agreeing with marvs mafia partner bresh. On December 19 2014 03:31 LightningStrike wrote: Honestly since no one is going for my case I might as well join. ##Unvote ##Vote Marvellosity This vote feels like a throw away vote and like a bus vote, well since nobody is jumping on kush i might as well be on marv for that town flip. On December 19 2014 04:15 LightningStrike wrote: I sure he's scum yes but also the case on marv is much better than my case on kush maybe Day 2 we could lynch Kush. At one point you try to push off of marv and onto kush but then all of a sudden the case on marv never changes and all of a sudden the case on him is stronger than on kush? Thats weird progression. You would rather keep Coag around to see if he changes is in your filter as well. Several places in your filter it seems like you soft defend people to set up mislynches later. Nno scum hunting besides a total tunnel on kush, you say you have scum reads but don't give them. Tell me why I shouldn't vote for you after all of this? | ||
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Sc was possible scum to me however i reread his filter, and i don't think scum in the situation hes in puts together that type of case after claiming role block and really pushed for that lynch. I don't think scum does that. | ||
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Basically your case is, damdred came into the game oddly, your point about me never making posts like that in x games don't really matter as the timing of the entrance is totally different in those games i was one of the top three posters in both games here I came into the game like five hours late and twenty pages behind so totally different. Palmar agree'd with me about setup, theres not much more to say here NB believes me. with two kill powers you generally will have three town roles, it has been documented in the thread before hand and evidence shown to back this up. Honestly if you get lynched at town here its becuase you haven't shown towniness in what you have done, at this point all you have done is somewhat defended mafia tried t get people off marv onto kush (your only scum read up to this point). and ask people why they don't have you as town, you haven't pressured people to find alignments or anything, you hae barely asked questions. So tell me why I shoudl be reading you as town here. Honestly I probably wouldn't lynch you today just because i can't take two huge questin marks to mylo but yea | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
"Well this is why i'm town I want you to reconsider. Maybe i'm wrong" instead you are like "No, lynch me idc" Thats super anti-town, like i just said i probably wouldn't want to lynch you today but you have to at least try today if you are town | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
The case you posted on me does not make me mafia at all it just makes me playing differently than I would as VT which you normally do as blue. Of course you can convince me i'm here talking to you if I was 100% you were mafia i wouldn't be talking to you | ||
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Damdred
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Damdred
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VE actually didn't play that badly as SK we got pretty lucky, and he got a bit unlucky. I do think there was a good bit of talk I was SK and mafia when you were making your case had me pegged that way. I still have to check filters during that time meh. And no we can't go into mylo with two huge no content people. Ls has a decent shot at mafia probably not voting him out today | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
This whole thing Proves NOTHING, mafia doesn't know who sk is at all. which voids out the entire case basically, there was no way that mafia would know that VE was the serial killer, which means it doesn't matter who helped push that case especially since most the thread thought ve was mafia not third party at that time, so it is more likely that mafia road VE in that situation for a mislynch | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
The whole thing is a pretty narrative but it doesn't prove anything nor does it really have merits that make coag scum here he is just an overeplained policy lynch at this moment. | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
However, you are irritated with me trying to dismantle your logic but look what i'm saying about your case. Mafia have little to no clue who the SK is here, VE has a habit of saying things and looking scummy. VE was not playing to his scum meta over all, you are discounting Kush, LS when they could 1) be mafia who thought they were pushing a strong mislynch at the time. 2) could of thought someone else was the SK Coag is just a policy lynch, and it is really over explained as such. It is a narrative that makes him look bad, but pushing off of VE is just as mafia minded as jumping on VE. And obviously when I say we got pretty lucky, I don't mean that we got lucky that he flipped SK. I mean that we got lucky that he got caught when he did rather than later when he would of been harder to catch, not that your case was built on luck. | ||
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Damdred
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Damdred
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Damdred
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On December 25 2014 04:11 LightningStrike wrote: If I was obvious scum I would of been desperate at Day 2 when Breshke died from 27NB and wouldn't even try to lynch VE and in fact let him live and hope he would help me get rid of town and kill him in Lynch or Lose. This is a bad argument, scum didn't know for sure WHO SK was. You thought I was the SK | ||
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Damdred
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Damdred
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Damdred
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Damdred
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Damdred
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Damdred
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But you people in mylo shoudl really be ashamed of yourself that was the worst town perormance at the end i've ever seen. Good freaking job. | ||
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Damdred
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Even people who were on the right track didn't really do anything or try to convince people. Thank you for the game FF, I think the balance was abit off though. | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
It feels like the game balance revolved around SK and mafia shooting each other or a vig shot hitting right. Just didn't feel to balanced. Town played prefectly up until d3, and we got rolled. | ||
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Damdred
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On December 28 2014 05:14 Fecalfeast wrote: I'll keep this in mind. I just threw setups at the balance people until they said ok. I mean town should of won if they put any time in, and ifi SL wouldn't of got mod killed they would of won i think 9/10 times. But we did play perfect up until d3 basically | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
Either way you played exactly hw you should of sciberbia, gratz and now you just carried marv to another scum victory | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
On December 28 2014 05:26 sicklucker wrote: Pretty sick read that theres no town motivation to push a lynch on that day lol. The one thing that you confused me with is that you showed the abilty to lynch ve at will. I would have kept him in a day or two and lynched him after for the extra kp. No chance your shot over a confirmed vig and palmer. And it would have secured you the win much earlier. Disagree, Sc was pretty universally town read and sk and scum wouldn't want to hit the same person (Ve would have to clarify) but their is a possibility he gets NK'd here. | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
I don't think SL lets the thread go crazy inactive, though i'm not sure if NB, Kush, SL, LS combination would of caught you just cause of activity. You are right though about lynching VE was the best play, everything since roleblock with you bothered me but everyone who was alive told me i was crazy haha. Seriously solid game for you scib | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
On December 28 2014 05:47 sicklucker wrote: Like when coag and kush are in the game. Why do you scum hunt when mafia and sk have something like 33% to hit each other if there not koag or kush. Its like literally the perfect time to be lazy and policy. My read is true and strong and it likely woulda got you since me and dandred always eventually read each other right in everygame we play. Sorry for not editing that post was still in mafia mode. Also was interacting with dandred in that thread anyway the game literally just ended right after that im sure he saw it instantly. Granted, that whole thing about why i town read you was a huge joke. Poking fun at your slip up. I thought you were town with how active and how jumpy around you were from theory to theory. I thought you were obvious town after the pressure etc i put on you. | ||
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Damdred
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On December 28 2014 06:21 marvellosity wrote: The problem with an SK isn't really balance. Games are just faster, and the SK provides a form of balance with who they shoot. The problem with an SK is that it takes a lot of power out of the other faction's hands. SK could help town out (if town are mislynching, SK should hit mafia) or help mafia out by hitting townies when things are going bad. But it just means either town or mafia are punished for playing well, and that really really sucks. anyhoo, thanks for the carry scib :p my team-mates pretty good at carrying me when i'm mafia these days... My back still hurts marv but i still love you | ||
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Damdred
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LS IS SO TOWN YOU HAVE TO WORK SO HARD TO CONVINCE ME to Oh ls is mafia i will insta vote. Was so mafia itw asn't even funny haha | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
But besides that, especially at mylo you want to look at everything and just keep posting even if you are just posting to yourself talk through everything thats happened in the game. Who cares if you are spamming the thread at that point its pretty towny just to talk through everything and try to solve the game. Your case on Sc was pretty limited and their was a few others points that you could of revisisted to swing people if they chose to listen. Could of went to some of the points I talked about earlier to build on your case some. Really just widen your vison a little bit and talk about everything, and talk more | ||
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Damdred
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Damdred
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When you afk a vote at mylo this is what happens baically mafia, and NB wouldn't of been able to help kush wasn't moving his vote and since ls got to 2 first it was game over minutes into mylo. | ||
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Damdred
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Damdred
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You were try hard d1 and past that, and the reaction to how i was pressuring and you actually making a case in response to my case and then the follow up points made me start town reading you. | ||
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