TL Mafia LXIX: Carol Of The Bells

On December 09 2014 08:35 Vivax wrote:
What froggy said is simple common sense but also something that never matters cause at the end of the day it's mostly some scummy looking person getting lynched.

I don't see it as scummy, just as something useless to talk about which isn't scummy at this stage of the game.
The biggest accusation you could make is that he's so serious in a setting where people are kinda joking, but that's not enough to go with in my book. It's more like he's annoyed that people are discussing policies when in past games it always led to that statement of his making the most sense.

Null for me.

On December 09 2014 20:41 Holyflare wrote:
That vivax post was at a perfectly normal time on someone that was the thread focus/part of a thread focus. It also happens at the same time as the bunnies posts so I have no idea how you don't know what's happening with bunnies

Also like the (ritoky?) post about ls having quite a lot of unsubstantiated town reads, and not questioning people based on them bla bla post but more so coupled with what kelsier said

Kush could absolutely be mafia at this point of time



I told him to read my filter and sheep me. Can only assume that's what he did.

On December 09 2014 20:57 Holyflare wrote:
Its hardly "vivax has inconsistent reads" like you make it out to be though.

How is there nothing there in bunnies posts???? Are we even reading the same game. At least state why my case/points are wrong before denouncing them based on nothing.

Also in regards to xatalos, bunnies having a 1/4 of the votes doesn't really mean anything and there are people pushing in different directions. This means nothing about bunnies alignment at all though, mafia might not even have a voice in the thread yet so far too much wifom. Your points on hts are... Ehh.. Just not appealing? You pretty much base it all on one post which isn't even that scummy and then say the rest of her posts are fluff but they aren't really in the context, she also has no suspicion of damd and the association of bunnies/hts doesn't apply at all with the evidence.

I also don't know why you even have a kelsier read in your post at all, that looks really out of place.

On December 09 2014 21:57 rsoultin wrote:


Really? Just...really? First, SL is a nincompoop, though well-meaning. Second, Damdred clearly in his droppings was asking for presents long before he actually said that he didn't have any. Third, they're random. Mod even came back in to say they were random. Random, random, random.

The dumb here is stifling.

OWS anyone? Or we gonna waste our time on ninja and HTS some more?

On December 09 2014 22:03 Holyflare wrote:
I also think bats is relatively not scummy at the present moment because he dropped everything after he was proven wrong and just sheeped me instead which is in fact townyish.

Would lynch: bunnies, kush, (oats?), (ls?), obi.

Still deciding on brackets. Subject to change on a few too. Full list later though, will be home at night and can write longer posts. Keep wasting posts on random crap and I'm almost at 4 pages -.-

Bunnies : what I've been saying
Kush: useless vote, useless scrooge post, afking and not caring about the game
Oats: talked about vivax but was completely wrong about it/bunnies
Ls: lots of town reads little justification, rito/kelsier points
Obi: bleh

On December 09 2014 22:41 ritoky wrote:


Oh really? well let's wait for your one scum read then



your reads:
HF- obvious read that everyone is making
Templar - trying to noob claim
OWS - meta
Slam - meta in a game you didn't even play
Damdred - fine enough
rsoultin - meta
FF - meta
27nb - non-committal
HTS - meta
ritoky - wait and see

and then there's sicklucker....you say he hasn't done weird shenanigans, but he literally HAS DONE THOSE THINGS. like this is just a straight lie. if you actually were following the thread you should have very clearly read that he did the things that you should have town read him for. that has clearly changed since your original post, so why hasn't your read?

like your reads are crap, they are primarily meta, they have 0 content, 1 is a straight up lie, and they are stagnant even though a whole lot has happened. i just really cannot believe that this is in any way a town perspective.

##vote: LightningStrike

On December 10 2014 00:11 Holyflare wrote:
2 people haven't posted in this game at all yet, useful -.-

Oats, your post on vivax is wrong and your post refuting that wasn't in any english I could understand.

On December 10 2014 00:25 Vivax wrote:


This post looks very mafiaish at this stage of the game.

Tube summarizes some stuff about the argument revolving bunnies and then HTS (which I still have to read atm), and asks another player "stuff" about it as if he couldn't judge it on his own, apparently cause it conflicts with his own reads (what are his reads???). Guessing from the post it would be that he's scumreading 27nb but not HTS, cause he's asking Koshi if he should give more priority to HTS instead of 27nb.

This is the sort of post I expect from a mafia who simply divides the game into different "wagon camps" consisting of different players and then works off that instead of genuinely working off arguments and reads. When he has the information, he doesn't know what to do with it in order to start looking townie. So his best bet is to start a discussion about it with some player he deems influential, and then post some random setup related stuff.

On December 10 2014 00:38 liancourt wrote:


Then what does it mean? U are so sure of this why?

On December 10 2014 22:42 rsoultin wrote:


Why would we? NB never claimed a role. If she did and I missed it, please link. There was a miscommunication involving a caroling vid, but she flat out said that was not a claim.

That list is getting way more attention than necessary. It was never that important to begin with, and if she says that iffy was meant as null and people to look at was meant as scum, then fine. She should know. Regardless, it should raise enough doubt to get those of you who are hyper-focusing (and have been from the start) on froggy and NB cause it's convenient and they were the first to draw attention to take a step back and actually look at some of the other players in the game.

The point that she is not as strong a scum case as before does call into question Xatalos' decision to vote her when he wasn't comfortable with it before. Maybe he has no other scum reads (kinda scary), but if so, he has time to defend himself.

On December 10 2014 22:58 rsoultin wrote:


Eh, I don't really have the time to answer this, to be honest. You can see it sprinkled through my other posts. I'll try to be back in enough time to change my vote if it's warranted, but gotta work. Ciao.

On December 10 2014 23:06 KelsierSC wrote:
Alright don't know who is in the thread so just going to spout some stuff.

So the first read I had of NB was that she didn't contradict herself and then hf explained how and afterwards I was like yeh you're right and I read hf as town for that.

So then NB comes back to the thread and pings me out for having soft reads or something, again like I just don't agree but I suppose if you have a different playstyle then yeh you can see that as scummy I guess.

She then gives her read on viv which is really not explained that well at all, she linked to a post and apparently he made "substantial" posts.

She also made the post "you need to learn how to read me, you are stupid" to somebody. Which I really didn't like because it is just mafia faking indignation. How can she possibly think she projected town.

So yeh I would happily vote that, if it wasn't for tubesock voting her which is really giving me pause but I will talk about that later.

So then viv shows up and he just kind of bw onto nb by calling me scum but he can't just sheep the read right, he has to make up some reasons, so apparently my scrooge thing was scummy because i am trying to get scrooge to claim and not making a play. So many things wrong with that, it was a specific play and the the retraction was immediate, No one in their right mind would actually claim there. I then called ff scum as a result and followed up, again viv says I didn't. he also calls me scum because I don't like people giving slam an immediate town read. Again the case is really fucking weak and it just looks like he has is trying to find a reason to call me scum rather than actually do it. His case on Xat is weak, it is because he town reads me. I think I have played pretty town and because Xat actually analysed my play and read the thread he is scum. yeh I just think these are bad reads so viv could be scum.

So then after this we get a few people who bw onto the vote, OWS, who just posts shit anyway , FF who I think is scummy, then rsoult...who might just be misguided.

So then tubesock, also votes on xat despite not understanding the wagon, but then unvotes again to go back on nb, even though nb pushes on me who he thinks is bad for town.
His main reason I am bad for town...because I talked to a woman and because apparently my reads aren't substantial. so this is a sheep of the nb reason (a terrible reason) , so you just sheep the read of your top mafia,
So then I have to evaluate what I think of tubesock because his play is so non sensical. So then I think well maybe NB could be town and tube/viv are the mafia.

Like I look at the votes on nb and a lot of my town aare voting there, but then HTS and tube vote...

I think my scum lynch would be LS, FF, viv and tube..pretty ok with that

On December 10 2014 23:08 froggynoddy wrote:


You should only regret defending me because you think I am scum, not because you dislike my reaction. I found your play relatively fluffy, appearing to be active when not contributing to town. Just because you are defending me does not make you town. Similarly even though Damdred attacked me I think his play is pretty townie.

You should not be looking for jerky play you should be looking for scummy play. Generally I also don't like people defending other sas it stops them from responding. Its also easy for scum to look town by defending town.

Re low post count: TBH I am finding this game relatively overwhelming. first game in a while and the only reason I thought I would be able to be active is due to the post restriction... this has not worked or at least people are posting without content which is making is making it more difficult.

I have had a look at LS - though again I disagree with most of his reads I feel that he is just being clumsy (like me it seems) rather than scummy.

I really don't like Rit's posting. will have anothe rlook at filter by tonight and decide on whether I find it scummy as well as bad/weird. I will also have a closer look at Templar since he has come back, but from what I can see he seems to be contributing so null read.

On December 12 2014 11:11 rsoultin wrote:


Heh, he's certainly less present this game, but the only one I'm comfortable giving a meta-read on is SL, and that's just cause he's so careless it's obvious. As a near plynch, sure...but I wouldn't vote Oats Day 2 unless I see something scummy from his corner, and he's reading more null than anything to me right now.

On December 12 2014 12:20 sicklucker wrote:


That would be even better. We would hit a for sure mafia tomorrow(him) and hopefully one today! We should set it up so he has to prove himself if he lives the night. If we vote him now its like a 50/50 in my mind or worse. Why not wait till the odds are better?

On December 12 2014 21:25 GlowingBear wrote:
Oats, I want you to say exactly why you want to lunch frog.

Early day 1 - (when he is meant to be busy): lots of fluffy no content reads;
Mid Day 1 - Comes back with something again that looks constructive but is not (see FF's deconstruction that I would tend to agree with)
Late day 1 - no real pressure on him (apart from me kinda and FF kinda) - says a few things of no value - goes away (whilst this is when he was meant to be more active).

On December 12 2014 22:10 GlowingBear wrote:
I want to read more of the thread before making a case on HF, but a lot of his reasoning is off. The lack of push on ritoky's present claim, the multiple scumreads of wagons outside the 27nb wagon and the 27nb mislynch is all playing against him.

His entrance in this game is awful, he picking on bunnies for being contradictory when picking up on frogs awful entrance but not picking on Vivax post on frog... This kind of double standards worries me.

On December 12 2014 22:17 The_Templar wrote:
Froggy's read on me isn't terrible. It shows a pattern at least.
Slam is town based on what I've heard on him.

On December 13 2014 15:38 Vivax wrote:


This post looks so mafia to me right now.

On December 13 2014 15:47 Vivax wrote:


THE CASE IS OUT. Find it in my filter, or look at what Alakaslam quoted.

Also I want to go into more detail on what Oats said there:

He completely skipped over all of the reasoning used to only argue for FF being town cause of his mere post count, he's putting zero effort in to get a read on him in any other way. It's not like he has a way of being sure about FFs alignment yet, no evidence of an opinion on FF in his filter. He just dismisses the case without caring in the slightest whether FF is actually town or mafia.

Fecalfeast for some of the stuff I found in his filter and already mentioned, plus he martyrs at various points, like during N1 and lately when he sort of expressed he doesn't care about the scumreads. But it's not the sort of righteous townie martyr when somebody is genuinely pissed off about people scumreading him or the sort, it's more like the "I don't care about the game"- martyr. Additionally he was in the focus of the night killed guys.

On December 13 2014 16:56 Trfel wrote:
Thanks rsoultin. I'll take a look. I had a pretty good idea though.

One more thing I found interesting about the Oatsmaster argument.

Last game (Student Mafia IV), Oatsmaster attacked batsnacks early on for advocating a policy lynch on kusmh4sta. This game, in the middle of discussion, Oatsmaster ignores it and advises what is basically a policy lynch instead.

I'd definitely like to know why your views on policy lynches have changed, Oatsmaster.

On December 13 2014 21:00 Tubesock wrote:
GlowingBear. You had a nice post there, but then what happened man?? I'm holding my breath for your 2nd installment. Oh, sorry, too drunk to do it.

FecalFeast's lynch doesn't fit in my current worldview. Yeah, he's done a lot of scum things but him flipping mafia while great doesn't help me find his mates. Well, to be honest I haven't gone in with the zealousness I did with my 4 disclosed (In case Sicklucker forgot they are: The_Templar, KelsierSC, Sicklucker, GlowingBear). I have a 5th but I need the right person to flip and sadly that isn't Fecal.

To me HolyFire's really only drove the NinjaBunny wagon which we all were on and his investigating Ritoky pretty hard. He's hunting at least. Ritoky to me is very town. I read him today a bit and really the only thing I didn't really like is he likes good jokes when talking in the beginning. Yeah, so I have basically nothing on him.



You also post quickly you think it's an irreparable post. Which to me made me think of the Key & Peele Text Confusion skit specifically. I find it hilarious and very applicable to the game of Mafia. I haven't figured out how to embed it so you'll have to google, but it will be the first return.

Is he thinking he DID make an unexplainable error or is he testing and reading me? Haha, it's funny because it's both. You asked me to not remind you about flying so I'm going to spoiler the rest.

+ Show Spoiler +

On December 13 2014 21:07 Tubesock wrote:
Oats, are you making fun of me now?

On December 13 2014 21:21 Xatalos wrote:


Could you explain why you want to lynch him?

On December 13 2014 21:43 Xatalos wrote:


What does this mean?

On December 13 2014 21:46 Tubesock wrote:


Oats is making fun of me for my batshit crazy posts. His post is Foggy.

On December 13 2014 22:17 Xatalos wrote:
Oh wait. Your vote is on Vivax now. That's even dumber though since you didn't even scumread him.

On December 13 2014 22:00 Xatalos wrote:
Dunno what you mean with that. Basically I think you look slightly better than FF, which isn't a great achievement. Shape up if you're town.

So why is your vote still on him and what specifically makes you think Froggy is scum?

On December 13 2014 22:09 Tubesock wrote:


I read you solid town since I before I went nuclear. I thought you might be trying to tease me with your trfl or Froggy post and thought it was funny. I DO however think that we need to know what both Trfl and Froggy flip, BUT I think we should flip Froggy first.

I think reading this game looking at each individual for scummy play is incorrect. I think it's more finding a strategy as there is a solid case on EVERYONE. The only actual evidence we have is after they die. So, really, town looks for motive while mafia tries to hide.

On December 16 2014 12:55 GlowingBear wrote:


I'm sorry, you've already caught up?

On December 16 2014 13:18 Tubesock wrote:
It's really difficult to defend Ritoky. My vote will stay on Holyflare though as he's one of my strongest reads (all my conspiracy theories) and at one time there were 5 of my top scum on Ritoky. Sicklucker jumped off, but I am waiting for the rest of them to jump off too when the wagon becomes strong enough without a couple of them. HF is already saying how he goes back on forth. I don't see him staying the course on Ritoky despite being one of the first votes on him.

On December 16 2014 14:49 Vivax wrote:


This is Oats first contribution since three days, and you really think he has any desire to solve this game? He claims to have caught up but completely ignores my claim. He says I'm scum with Xata and HF when I voted HF over flipped scum D2, and kept posting my concerns on Xatalos and argued about it so much. But we're all scum together??

Like, there's a limit to the insanity a town can show, while this is a case of a scum who doesn't like playing the scum game but pretends he does play the town game. And when Oats has such a bad grasp of the game it's cause he's scum.

Vote for this guy.

On December 17 2014 08:51 sicklucker wrote:
Like I cant even make a case you havent been playing. Thats my case. If you sit and do do nothing for over a week eventually your mafia by poe.

On December 17 2014 08:56 sicklucker wrote:
Oats has a 3 page filter in a 190 page game. Guys? Like ls, rstun, hts you know hes mafia from this alone based on last game where he had 10x the filter in a much less active game.

On December 18 2014 10:02 sicklucker wrote:
Gb can still be mafia. But hes so less likely and he correctly explain why hf is mafia. your on my mafia radar now the line in the sand has been drawn. Hf basicly claimed by not telling us who he sent the present to if you didnt read the thread.

On December 18 2014 16:54 GlowingBear wrote:
Remember that the present thing is not about FAKE claiming: it's about that a scum wouldn't give a present to a town unless he was going to shoot him.
So holyflare sent it to a scum partner because he will be caught on a lie of he says he sent it to a townie and he will incriminate a mafia partner if he gets lybched and flip red.

Again, it's simple logic.

On December 18 2014 16:48 GlowingBear wrote:


Really bad as scum
Extremely bad as town

It's ridiculous how many inconsistencies I've found on holyflare's gameplay. He's not one to drown on such fallacies and misinterpretations of posts.
It sounds mafia. It makes perfect sense that HF is the roleblocker therefore they lynched KSC.
Obi obviously did shot LoneMeow.

If you can't see this, you're really stupid.

Town holyflare has no problem in saying to whom he gave the present, because this guy already doesn't have the present l, so it's safe to claim to whom he has given it. He doesn't say because he will incriminate another mafia if he says or the townie will say he never got the present. This is a simple scum claim.

If you doubt it, just ask to HF to whom he gave the present. If he refuses to say, ask why. He won't give you a satisfactory reason, I guarantee.

Also, have this in mind: if he sent his present to someone, how does he knows this person have this present to FF instead of opening it? How does he knows this person gave the present to FF? Hint: it's because he gave the present to his scum partner and FF not being dead means he is the Godfather.

Forget it's me who is saying this. Think of it as a whisper in the dark. Doesn't it makes sense?

On December 19 2014 10:07 sicklucker wrote:
Heres holyflares mafia strategy. Lynch a team mate or gb if he has the numbers he has the perfect excuse to change his vote and save himself. Tomorrow if templars lynched as town or mafia regardless he gets a free lynch on gb because he will kill two votes against himself. Then it will be lylo with 2 or 3 mafia with a potential kp present in there hands. He will have gained a little town cred in the process.

On December 19 2014 10:45 rsoultin wrote:
Oats, can we get some reads from you, please? I agree with a good number of your comments...but at the same time countering SL is kinda obvious anyway. The guy doesn't think.

On December 19 2014 23:20 Vivax wrote:
What I can criticize about HF's case is that it came at a time where people were already willing to vote Templar so it didn't exactly add much novelty. You could call it a nail in the coffin but it also looks a bit like overkill, something a scum HF could have done just cause he said he would write a huge wall of text case previously, and not something we really needed.

I didn't even read it lol, Templar is an easy gut-read at this point and before, based on my previous games with him.

Sorry HF I don't think I will ever feel confident enough to call you town after my past experiences, there are these interactions with scum that suggest townie but I fully trust you'd have the means of planting them on purpose.

On December 20 2014 01:28 GlowingBear wrote:
About the mass claiming: I'd rather have confirmed town shot and mafia lynched than a power role alive but a townie mislynched.

Power of vote > power roles.

(Thanks IAMP, btw)

On December 20 2014 21:36 GlowingBear wrote:
Wow, Vivax is town...

Took me too long to realise, sorry.

I'm with you, Vivax. I think your analysis is informative. HTS, Xat and Templar makes a lot of sense.
But oats is playing this game so indifferently that it makes me shiver.
Maybe he is a possible 4 mafia?

On December 20 2014 23:28 GlowingBear wrote:


Sorry, you have been extremely useful in this game, I'd love to play of your way