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On October 14 2014 01:56 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:55 Lord Tolkien wrote:
All i will say is the pushback onto MB after i tried to save him is interesting. No you'll say more than that. Don't make me do all the work.
But wave. I don't want to be a manipulative skumbag like you.
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On October 14 2014 02:02 WaveofShadow wrote:
Do something. I'm sick of defending you.
Why are you lol.
Stop trying to buddy me.
I'm sure everyone can see the flaws in Req's logic themselves.
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On October 14 2014 02:04 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:53 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Ahahaha. Req thinks I'm scum.
I wouldnt have a problem with it if the reasoning wasn't so bad. Your picking up on traits which are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scum wants to do.
lol
Town can't change their minds? Pls.
And really, how are we to read your day one when you spent the entire time moaning then playing the newb card?
I applaud the effort, though the reasoning is poor at best. After analyzing the votecount and general player atmosphere, i figured i needed to steer town off of what was most likely town. And not waste a d1 lynch COUGH COUGH.
Still wouldnt lynch wave or soniv tomorrow.
Also, i take it back. Vigi should shoot today. I can't say my early posting was super stellar, but if you're going to cling to that to try and discredit me then your opinion goes in the bin. My views don't change just because you say reasoning is bad and leave it at that. But, your response is noted and appreciated. The shittiness of your post is noted as well, as it contrasts starkly with how you were attempting to post previously. Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:47 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did. Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious. You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game. I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands. I posit that it wasn't lack of MB responding later on that got him killed, rather his general attitude and the early case against him/lack of reads without responding to those when he had plenty of time to do so. People had already made up their minds long before that became 'pressuring.' Look at soniv for example. Look at how many people DIDN'T vote MB and said 'I may move my vote over to him when such-and-such' happens. All the blame though can't be place on MB though, scum and town are both to blame as well. I personally believe the wagon had a decent scum push/following to it, and town were not willing to look past MB's early faults and consider the points I had brought up about MB's aggression (less so the blue stuff because I brought it up late). As for the bolded neither do I but you don't see people willing to clear me for it, do you? As far as voting patterns go, in my experience it is way more likely for scum to spread out their votes than to pile on---solo voting is a big no-no as was explained a little earlier. (up to you again if you consider that useful or not). I have a fair idea that you're town but obstinately voting outside the group is an easy way for scum to absolve themselves of responsibility like you are doing. This goes for me as well since I was voting Asmo. I understand that there were definitely people on MB for their own reasons, but I didn't agree with them. Scum piling on is definitely a reasonable strategy - especially if they switch once the bandwagon gets going. Scum who jump around a lot can "randomly" all pile onto one person together to "create pressure", then when the mob forms, slip off onto scattered others and it will not seem out of the ordinary for them. To start an angry mob, you need more than one person, after all. Still, I don't know if scum in this game is that organized. But if they were, it's a perfectly reasonable tactic.
My posts get significantly worse when im posting on a phone lel.
Also it isn't EoN yet so no big reads for scum to latch onto.
HF trying to push me though.
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On October 14 2014 02:09 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:07 Lord Tolkien wrote:On October 14 2014 02:04 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:53 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Ahahaha. Req thinks I'm scum.
I wouldnt have a problem with it if the reasoning wasn't so bad. Your picking up on traits which are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scum wants to do.
lol
Town can't change their minds? Pls.
And really, how are we to read your day one when you spent the entire time moaning then playing the newb card?
I applaud the effort, though the reasoning is poor at best. After analyzing the votecount and general player atmosphere, i figured i needed to steer town off of what was most likely town. And not waste a d1 lynch COUGH COUGH.
Still wouldnt lynch wave or soniv tomorrow.
Also, i take it back. Vigi should shoot today. I can't say my early posting was super stellar, but if you're going to cling to that to try and discredit me then your opinion goes in the bin. My views don't change just because you say reasoning is bad and leave it at that. But, your response is noted and appreciated. The shittiness of your post is noted as well, as it contrasts starkly with how you were attempting to post previously. On October 14 2014 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:47 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did. Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious. You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game. I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands. I posit that it wasn't lack of MB responding later on that got him killed, rather his general attitude and the early case against him/lack of reads without responding to those when he had plenty of time to do so. People had already made up their minds long before that became 'pressuring.' Look at soniv for example. Look at how many people DIDN'T vote MB and said 'I may move my vote over to him when such-and-such' happens. All the blame though can't be place on MB though, scum and town are both to blame as well. I personally believe the wagon had a decent scum push/following to it, and town were not willing to look past MB's early faults and consider the points I had brought up about MB's aggression (less so the blue stuff because I brought it up late). As for the bolded neither do I but you don't see people willing to clear me for it, do you? As far as voting patterns go, in my experience it is way more likely for scum to spread out their votes than to pile on---solo voting is a big no-no as was explained a little earlier. (up to you again if you consider that useful or not). I have a fair idea that you're town but obstinately voting outside the group is an easy way for scum to absolve themselves of responsibility like you are doing. This goes for me as well since I was voting Asmo. I understand that there were definitely people on MB for their own reasons, but I didn't agree with them. Scum piling on is definitely a reasonable strategy - especially if they switch once the bandwagon gets going. Scum who jump around a lot can "randomly" all pile onto one person together to "create pressure", then when the mob forms, slip off onto scattered others and it will not seem out of the ordinary for them. To start an angry mob, you need more than one person, after all. Still, I don't know if scum in this game is that organized. But if they were, it's a perfectly reasonable tactic. My posts get significantly worse when im posting on a phone lel. Also it isn't EoN yet so no big reads for scum to latch onto. HF trying to push me though. None of my post is pushing. I've given my view: you are mostly scum in my book. That likely won't change tonight. If you want to refute it during night that's your call, but it doesn't mean anything until D2 starts.
I dont give a damn what you do or don't think.
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On October 14 2014 02:14 mordek wrote:
Man I almost posted saying I think I've changed my mind on LT and then he goes and posts like this again. It's discouraging.
Im still watchin chu
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On October 14 2014 02:14 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:11 WaveofShadow wrote:
I am assuming at this point that we're dealing with 4 scum and a 3P (hopefully just survivor) but I have seen 4 scum and 3P with KP before, and that setup really sucks for us.
Your turn, if we're putting our cards on the table. 14 player game is 4 scum??? Is that real? Can you explain please. This is a legit inquiry because I assumed 3 scum + 1 3P(with possible KP).
God Wave, stop panicking everyone.
In my experience its 3 mafia, MAYBE a 3p if town is filled with blues, with 14 players in a noob game.
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Also Coma. Pls. Soniv is cleared for his push onto MB.
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On October 14 2014 02:18 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:14 ketchup wrote:On October 14 2014 02:11 WaveofShadow wrote:
I am assuming at this point that we're dealing with 4 scum and a 3P (hopefully just survivor) but I have seen 4 scum and 3P with KP before, and that setup really sucks for us.
Your turn, if we're putting our cards on the table. 14 player game is 4 scum??? Is that real? Can you explain please. This is a legit inquiry because I assumed 3 scum + 1 3P(with possible KP). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/442512-survivor-series-mafiaNo 3P here I remembered one of my other scumgames wrong as well, thought it was 14 with 4 scum and 3P but it was 16. I could swear there was another one recently with 4scum + 3P but I could be wrong.
Wave you isjit. Max of 3 scum with 14 players, 3p optional if there's a shitton of town blues.
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On October 14 2014 02:27 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:25 mordek wrote:
Why are we talking about different games and numbers? This sounds like scum activity. It matters to me a lot because it means a lot to me to know what I am looking for.
Ill repeat. 3 scum max in a newbie setup with 14. Maybe a 3p with lots of town power roles. Which i find highly unlikely in a newbie game.
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On October 14 2014 02:32 WaveofShadow wrote:
It actually shouldn't matter much this early.
Drawing connections before you see any flip often leads to confirmation bias.
Also yes.
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Agreeing with mordek.
Also, I REPEAT, 3 scum, maybe 1 3p. Just look at every newbie game role list ffs. 13 player setups: 3 scum.
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Alaric: Also, it depends. Guessing scum motivation for their night kills is the height of wifom, so i wouldnt try until we get some scum flips. They could fish for blues, strong towns, or good reads. Or confirmed town. Don't bother.
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On October 14 2014 03:55 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 02:18 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Also Coma. Pls. Soniv is cleared for his push onto MB. can you tell me what i miss as to why? is it because he just stuck with his original gut feeling? you were on again off again on the moonbear train too. and it seems like for the most part you and soniv only have good things to say about each other. i.e. soniv desregarding scummy reads on you and you saying he is clear now. Can you explain more?
Soniv pushed the MB train hard. Scum usually don't want the attention early for pushing a town mislynch D1. Much better to look at the people following the train and sheeping.
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Or better yet, at the people wasting their votes D1 and not consolidating on the two wagons.
HINT HINT
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I'll say this. If you believe Ghandi is scum, look at the MB wagon. If you think keff is just bambi, look at the non-votes.
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On October 14 2014 04:04 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 03:59 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Or better yet, at the people wasting their votes D1 and not consolidating on the two wagons.
HINT HINT You're very aggressive about instigating mobs. I don't know how forum mafia goes, but in my opinion the better play is to get the town working together. Fearmongering, shitposting, and capslocking doesn't make you look innocent or like a team player. Please shape up or stop. I've already given my reasoning for my vote. I will welcome any discussion into my behavior, because truth is how Town will succeed in life.
You wasted your vote lol. Wave wasnt getting lynched d1 ever and all you did was give scum more room to influence or hide their votes.
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On October 14 2014 04:09 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 04:06 Lord Tolkien wrote:
I'll say this. If you believe Ghandi is scum, look at the MB wagon. If you think keff is just bambi, look at the non-votes. I'll say this: your posting today has been rl shit tier.
Its all the phone m8.
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On October 14 2014 04:14 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 04:09 Lord Tolkien wrote:On October 14 2014 04:04 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 03:59 Lord Tolkien wrote:
Or better yet, at the people wasting their votes D1 and not consolidating on the two wagons.
HINT HINT You're very aggressive about instigating mobs. I don't know how forum mafia goes, but in my opinion the better play is to get the town working together. Fearmongering, shitposting, and capslocking doesn't make you look innocent or like a team player. Please shape up or stop. I've already given my reasoning for my vote. I will welcome any discussion into my behavior, because truth is how Town will succeed in life. You wasted your vote lol. Wave wasnt getting lynched d1 ever and all you did was give scum more room to influence or hide their votes. This is the scummiest attitude that I've ever seen. Either you are a shit-tier poster or you're bad at being scum. Either way, I'd rather have reasonable Scum!Wave live longer than take the chance that you're Town. This type of posting isn't constructive, it's just setting town back. And it's blatant about it. If you're seriously not scum, you're just hurting the team instead of trying to do anything constructive. Please, respond to me in any trollish shit you haven't used yet (which, let us remember, includes youtube videos, quoting Lonely Island, allcaps, blaming your phone for making you a shitter, and yelling "disregard").
You have much experience with scummy attitudes then?
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EPT
