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See the night 1 post:
GhandiEAGLE (3): ComaDose, Lord Tolkien, MoonBear
Unless you want him to call himself scum, it makes sense. However, I'm not a fan of the "no scum voted for him so he's more likely to be scum" argument to prove Ghandi scum. Sure it's less likely to happen but that doesn't automatically make him suspicious, I mean look at Asmo he's pretty town and Day 1 he had Tolkien, Wave and myself on his ass. Tolkien flipped green, I believe Wave to be town and so am I, but that doesn't trump the Soniv case Asmo made and somehow turns him scum (if anything, it just shows that we suspected him more, which is also the case for Ghandi).
ComaDose, you're taking a very strong stance against Ghandi with your affirmation there:
On October 14 2014 23:43 ComaDose wrote:
but flipping ghandi red would be so great for my townie cred i could become like the second innocent child.
Are you saying you'd be willing to be marked as scum if Ghandi flips green?
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Why not push for them and point out how they're more suspicious than Soniv to you when prompted about him, them?
Ultimately the game is about lynching mafia, not "not making mistake" and being fine with lynching a random because you couldn't read him.
'cept for D1, but that's because it's hard to have a definite read...
As for Coma:
On October 15 2014 00:10 ComaDose wrote:
i am referring to what wave previously pointed out that i voted for ghandi when I was unfortunately otherwise occupied and im unlikely to vote for scum.
Uh... yeah. Can't really argue about that, especially since I defended the guys with the "RL stuff" card saying I wouldn't question it. You're unrelated to Ghandi, in that you aren't both scum.
However Ghandi's still the "easy" solution because he's been attacked so much, and without Asmo's case on soniv (and Tolkien dying, which seems to have removed a cushion between Wave and Soniv (or just made it one less person for Wave to argue with so he does it harder with the remaining ones  )) he'd still probably be the current bandwagon... alongside you.
I'd say I value consistency, but your circumstances, that make your vote on Ghandi less suspicious, now say that it's not a strong vote either because you didn't have much time or material to be 100% sure of your initial call, eg. circumstances have changed between then and now.
If you didn't have the convenience of Ghandi to place your vote, who would you investigate/pressure? And why?
(I know the arguments against Soniv are solid but if he's your pick it's going to look like a bandwagon... )
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On October 15 2014 02:49 mordek wrote:
Man this game just messes with your head. I think town needs to start voting and playing it out from there?
Soniv, I just haven't felt convinced otherwise.
##Vote jcarlsoniv
Na, I think most people already voted by now? Plus it's only the first part of the day, and if Day 1 is to be trusted the game gets much more heated in the last ~6 hours. There's still time to discuss things (that doesn't mean "it's fine if you don't have ideas for now", just that it's not do-or-die time yet).
Which brings me to Soniv's behaviour, which surprised me a bit. You're not defending yourself at all, and apart from the last few posts (I'll come back to that) you actually pretty much ignore the attacks against you to discuss other people.
Now I'm not saying it's inherently bad, I just gave it some thought and came up with a few possibilities:
- you're resigned to your lynch (see last post and your "everybody seems to want me dead"). That would be pretty scummy as I figure a townie would fight to the end to try to at least force discussion and get information out for everyone to read, even if he's doomed. On the other hand I find it likely because as said it's too early in the day to bury you, and I believe yout o be tougher than that.
- you're disinterested and don't care if you die. Nope. No chance in Hell.
- you're not upset because you know it's early in the day and that things are as likely to swing during the next 24 hours (It's Mafia! Maybe we'll end up lynching ketchup today!). You know focusing on defending yourself would only may you look worse and you don't find that case on yourself that strong anyway.
I'm leaning for the 3rd one just because you're a vet, but maybe I'm missing something. Care to tell?
On October 15 2014 03:15 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 03:09 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 15 2014 02:59 Requizen wrote:On October 15 2014 02:51 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 15 2014 02:48 Requizen wrote:@Soniv Did you purposefully ignore the post I made about you 5 posts after that? On October 14 2014 04:37 Requizen wrote:
I don't know on Soniv. Again, like Alz, his posts aren't scummy, but they don't feel squeaky clean. I like how he was on MB from early and stuck with it, so he wasn't really flip-floppy. Even if it was wrong, I like how he put down a feeling and then stuck with it rather that throwing his vote wherever.
But, his discussions (while moving the thread along), rarely give any of his own opinions. Other than his read on MB and an early read list, most of it is just talking about other player's reads until the end of the day rolled around. This doesn't scream scum to me, but it's very observer-like and lurky. Being around, talking without really drawing attention or saying anything that jumps can be a very effective stealth tool. Like ketchup, you are "reading my filter" but ignoring the posts that make you look incorrect. My reads at this point should be disregarded. My vote D1 was not wasted, because it would not have affected the end result of MB's lynch one way or another. Is there a particular reason you and ketchup are both taking the same steps to paint me in a bad light? Because we're noticing the same things? I didn't ignore that post, it only reinforces my point - you aren't giving a read on me. "his posts aren't scummy, but they don't feel squeaky clean" "this doesn't scream scum to me". These are very non-committal opinions. You want my opinion? You look scummy as fuck. Moreso than Coma. ##unvote
##vote Requizen You blatantly left it out of your "in depth investigation" to make me look like worse. I haven't changed that stance. I don't have a good read on you. My instincts don't scream mafia but you haven't posted enough helpful things to be confirmed town. You are 20%~30% scum, which doesn't mean anything. If the votes go towards you, I have no problem letting them go through because I don't think you're confirmed town like some other people. If they don't, that's fine too, I think Wave is a bigger threat (for reasons listed multiple times). I am not flipping on things. My opinions have formed slowly and changed slowly, and I have been outspoken and honest about it every step of the way. Ignoring that and trying to utilize misinformation makes you look bad, and I'd rather not have to pursue you. As an aside, I'm removing my vote from ketchup since, as I said before, I don't think he's scum and I just jumped on him because he was on my case. I hope this reasoning is clear enough that it can be referenced in the future without someone twisting my actions to try and draw attention off of themselves.##unvote That last paragraph is what's called an OMGUS vote, and it is a huge scumtell. I didn't even know that was a thing. Ok, I guess it's a scummy move for someone who's played mafia for however many games, but you can clearly read the exchange between us (which was taking place at 1 in the morning) and realize my frustration. If not, then you can continue to ignore the evidence that is literally written down.
Thing is, Req, Mafia is a game of bluff (till we can pull an Asmo and peg people on their votes with pre/post-flips).
If you act impulsive you likely don't help town, so it's not a good move.
Also, the whole "you can clearly (...) realise my frustration" doesn't work either, because imagine you're being pressured. Do you think it's easier for someone calm to fake frustration, or for someone stressed to pretend to remain calm and feel the pressure at all?
Anyone can pretend to act irrationally against an attack (eg. frustration, annoyance, etc. like Wave did earlier) and use that to excuse their behaviour without presenting a well-mounted defense. Shove aside a good case that puts you in real danger of getting lynched is harder though, and us townies shouldn't be as pressured because, unless blue, being prepared to sacrifice ourselves for the town is par for the course. Obviously in a newbie game it doesn't hold as much, but that's why "frustrated/annoyed" responses have often been met by skepticism so far.
Tolkien didn't go "fine" because people he attacked yelled at him, but because their retort included content, that he felt satisfied about.
Basically (and from the impression the vets gave me) a lot of play isn't scummy so much as it is not-town play that is easily fakable and as such a potentiel scum hideout/tactic.
I won't doubt Cixah telling me he's frustrated because he's confirmed townie. Someone else may just be scum faking it to try and stall.
(I'm not accusing you, just trying to explain. I think I've been pretty lenient in this regard so far, because I hadn't considered it from the start till Wave got pressured, and because I'm as experience (and as such not confident) in reading through these as ketchup thinks I am.
I do think your frustration was genuine too, because it lines up well with your character.)
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On October 15 2014 03:39 Alaric wrote:
- you're resigned to your lynch (see last post and your "everybody seems to want me dead"). That would be pretty scummy as I figure a townie would fight to the end to try to at least force discussion and get information out for everyone to read, even if he's doomed. On the other hand I find it unlikely because as said it's too early in the day to bury you, and I believe you to be tougher than that.
Fuck.
Also your last post actually seems to be trying to shake things up. I thought you just wanted Requizen to talk more and provide content but you know have a scum read on him?
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Also "not as experienced" as ketchup thinks I am. Man this post...
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Na, that's fine by me, and a reasoning I can get behind. Doesn't mean you're cleared of current suspicions obviously (and saying you expected Moonbear to flip red can be another way of saying "As scum I decided that Moonbear would make a good mislynch"), but you're not worsening your position with this.
I don't have my vote on you because we're looking for 3+ scum and you already have enough on your plate, but I've been pretty honest about Asmo's compelling case on you I think.
Gotta go back and reread on Coma's explanations.
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On October 15 2014 04:04 ComaDose wrote:
Interestingly the people that joined the bandwagon to lynch me, like alaric and req, are at odds with soniv now making me feel like there is nothing to learn about mafia following soniv from that exchange. especially because neither of them voted for moonbear day 1.
That's actually exactly why I've went to you ComaDose: because everyone's on Soniv, I don't think town would get anything from me joining the party, so I investigated other people... like you, who got left off the hook thanks to the Soniv bandwagon.
Maybe I misread, but you're wrong in that I did vote Moonbear (I wasn't sure of it and I fucked up, but I still voted him).
There's something from your different posts, though. You've been mentioning Soniv, Ghandi, Asmo and (more or less) Req, but when trying to draw associations, you said:
- Soniv + Ghandi scum is unlikely
- Soniv + Asmodeus scum is unlikely
So you bring up names but then you invalidate them through associations. Are you saying that you're having trouble to commit (which is unfortunate because once someone flip it may be too late even if it gives you conclusions, if we mislynch), but that you think Soniv shouldn't be lynched?
Who are your reads then? From looking at the recent posts in your filter it looks like you're leaning Ghandi+Asmo, but you're refusing to say the word.
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Ketchup it wasn't a case. When I say I'm just curious and asking questions, I mean it. Soniv acted differently from most so far, including other vets (even Tolkien addressed accusations against him, although he did it by trashtalking their authors), and that made me curious since he's experience. I thought there was maybe something to glean about how the game is played here.
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Acted differently when pressed/accused*, I mean.
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You're pretty bad at sounding legitimately pissed though, Soniv.
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What time is it actually for you Ghandi?
These NA guys and their multiple timezones...
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Fuck that it's almost 2 AM. I may post a little but don't expect nothing significant until ~10 hours from now (maybe less, since there's no deadline tonight I hope I won't have as much catching up to do). Thing is I start being up to date and "available" at ~5-8 AM depending ony our timezone so yeah that doesn't help.
Ghandi's practicing for work commuting already, damn. :|
More serious stuff before I go submarine under my blanket: the whole "distraction" Ghandi talks about, I guess I can be listed for Asmo. But both times I wanted to grill him (only voted the first one, because the 2nd was while I was catching up and he had his Soniv case in-between) he actually made a pretty sensible and well-constructed post that actually contributed.
I'll admit that maybe we can look into the timing of these, and if Soniv gets lynched and flips green it'll be twice that Asmo makes the post that gives traction to a mislynch, but I don't think he'd be able to manipulate us like that as scum, especially two times in a row.
Also appreciated that you get more into things, although you end up saying "the only flip that'd give us as much info as mine would be Soniv's... who happens to be the other bandwagon atm", which is a little convenient don't you think?
Then again if you were trying to push your "town agenda" you told us that you'd target Wave, and I think it's pretty safe to say we aren't lynching Wave.
...
Are Wave and Ghandi both planning to lynch Soniv by "default" because they can't lynch each other? x)
This is feeling a little surreal.
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On October 15 2014 12:38 Cixah wrote:
I got to take my agression out on casting spells as a mage in shadowrun so this is going to boil down to one thing. I've been taking this game too much as puzzle and less of a series of people trying to manipulate one another.
This is what I've been feeling too. I've thought about it but considered it would just clutter the thread and be harmful speculation, but since Asmo brought it up too (and now you) and Wave seems to want it discussed in the spoilered post (and scum!Wave trying to lead down a red herring isn't credible at this point), here we go.
+ Show Spoiler +On October 15 2014 11:12 WaveofShadow wrote:One specific section really struck me though and I'd very much like to get opinions on this. Show nested quote +
To me, this says that Jeff is sacrificial scum: the scum (read: Soniv) know he's going down eventually, but they're going to try and put off a lynch on him until they get as many lurky town-peeps as possible. Definitely Coma, but I don't know if it ends there. Maybe Soniv rounds back on Alz (but here my reasoning gets less event-based, so let's avoid mere ideas).
This is an entirely new POV and shows that Asmo is attempting to think about connections between scummers. Now some people including myself have pointed out that pre-flip association isn't particularly useful, and often results in confirmation bias leading you and others astray. That however, isn't my main point. My biggest problem (and it is literally a problem, because I'm not sure I can give a completely unbiased answer to it): Which alignment posts something like the bolded? Who is thinking about leaving a scum to be sacrificed? Is this something that is going on in the scum QT that Asmo is trying to 'bring to light?' Is he just thinking really critically? I am not trying to lead on any answers here, but I want opinions. I think that section of the post is the key to cracking Asmo one way or another.
I'm not going to paste my reasoning as Wave seems to think that topic would give scum too many tools to play around with us, but I'm keeping it under my thumb if people think it should be laid out instead.
Conclusions are: someone's lying. By this I mean not lurking, white lies, vagueness, or just leaving trails for townies to pick up, but flat-out, straight-up lying in his posts.
And it makes me pretty convinced that we have a bus going on.
There are so many claims that not only it's easy for anyone to hide behind one of the bandwagons, you can also pretend that "if X turns out red then I'm cleared", which are multiplicating right now. People are pretty much saying "pause my case until we can draw conclusions from a flip" which amounts to stalling the game and feels scummy right now.
That's ballsy because if we read through it then scum lose at least half their numbers (2 out of 3-4) but the more I think about it, the likelier it gets.
The annoying part is how the new element "someone's straight up telling lies" changes the situation for me. So far Asmo's case seemed solid, and I could get behind Requizen because all my expectations were met, and now I have to ask myself "Can I trust Asmodeus' posts? Was I wrong to evaluate Requizen as a good investigator but a poor mastermind?" and it creates uncertainty I hate having to deal with.
On October 15 2014 11:34 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2014 11:15 jcarlsoniv wrote:
The meat of this paragraph is coming from the assumption that I am manipulating people, specifically Requizen. This is so ridiculously off base. I saw the intereactions between ketchup and Requizen. I then began pressing him as well. He shut down and became erratic under any hint of pressure. Everyone is excusing it because it's Requizen, and I'm calling bullshit.
And once again, you're parroting this "fake anger" thing. And I will repeat - Wave's play is frustrating me, and I'm trying to maintain a level headedness. You are taking Wave's misguided crosshairs as gospel and using that to justify something that is simply untrue.
I'm not excusing it, I'm saying I'm buying it so far. Req's posting style all over this site reads like this on his bad days, and you and I both know that. His last game went into this direction at points, and you were in it with him. You're a good enough player that if you wanted to take advantage of that, I think you could. Again, Wave wasn't the one who pointed that out. Sure he jumped on the idea, but it was Alaric's observation. Maybe Wave's collusion is hinting that he's looking to get you lynched as a scummer. Maybe it means he and Alaric are in it together for the scum glory. But I doubt it.The possibility is there and it fits with the subtlety of the scum play I'm accusing you of so far.
Are you saying you're not convinced whether or not you're town?
Regarding the "fake anger" thing, I wouldn't read too much into it: Wave reacted to it first, and I made pretty much the same observation by posting from the next-to-last page at the time so I hadn't read it. However it was more of a cheeky jab from me because I thought it was so obvious Soniv was exaggerating it. I was a bit surprised that Wave jumped on it that way as it made the whole "issue" seem much more serious/ground for analysis than I thought it was.
Maybe I'm misguided, but that one was so obvious, I believe Soniv good enough to get some manipulation going, and do it better than that.
On October 15 2014 12:47 ComaDose wrote:
owb would say space jam
What?
On October 15 2014 12:38 Cixah wrote:I'm going to bed late again because of this thread. Completely ruining my sleep schedule for this crap  .
That too. Tbh I don't think I'll be around for this deadline nor the next, I've been feeling tired the last 2 days at work and I've got to fix that.
I'm saying it so you don't rely on me for a last minute vote swing or whatever may come up, my vote ~2 hours before the deadline should be my definite one.
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On October 15 2014 21:38 Alzadar wrote:
6
5
1
It's time to make a choice, Alaric. Coma's not being lynched today.
Yup. I'd considered that before, and I don't feel like it's getting late either so I'm not gonna throw my vote for now.
It is pretty much set at this point, I just want to look at things a bit still.
I can always PM my vote's motivation to Dandel now, and he can confirm when I post it that I haven't changed it, if you want (and if Dandel is 0K with that?).
##Unvote
And while I'm at it,
mod question: can I do that?
Another one: do I get the roleblocker/jailkeeper/medic interactions with the poisoner right?
- medic: doesn't prevent the victim from being fed a vial. Stops the victim from dying to the poison.
- roleblocker: stops the poisoner from feeding his vial (vial is lost). Doesn't prevent the poison/antidote taking effect (poison is a delayed effect, and the antidote is received by the victim, they aren't active actions). Prevents the medic from cancelling the poison.
- jailkeeper: stops the poisoner from feeding his vial (vial is lost). Prevents the victim from being fed a vial (vial is lost?). Doesn't prevent the poison taking effect (it's a delayed effect, not a targeted one). Prevents the medic from cancelling the poison.
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So you'd rather have classes than come here and get flamed? What kind of a student are you?
0K, time to get a vote then.
At this point they're both scummy and the perspective of buses is going to make me paranoid and muddy all my previous reads, so to hell with it, I want to see what me (and town as a whole) stands to gain from these lynches.
- Ghandi won't teach me anything about ComaDose. If he flips green then Coma just looks scummy for pushing so hard for a guy who was suspicious to begin with and use him as his defense. If Ghandi flips red, with the situation as it is and Coma even flinging the "I'm cleared" card it just looks like the easiest bus ever. Fuck that.
- Asmodeus and Req are the two people I'm having the most trouble reading now that I've made up my mind about the plausibility of a bus, and I've already suspected Asmodeus twice, only for him to clear himself twice with a clear case on someone else. Yes Asmo, it means doing this is also a way for me to keep tabs on you. You've made a good case on Soniv which makes a red flip more likely, but if he flips green you'll have been at the foundation of two mislynches in a row, both started right after you got pressured. If Soniv flips red win for us, if he flips green I'll have my next target (and don't even think about switching your vote upon reading that).
- Wave sadly hasn't been as productive as his activity may have suggested, because he spends a good half of his time being angry. Doesn't matter if genuine anger or not, since Wave's town, but as long as he's fighting his lynches and pulling his hair out he's about as useful to town as Day 1 Ghandi. However Soniv flips (and I think he's more likely to flip red, that's still the main point of a lynch), Wave will cool down and I hope he'll be able to refocus. Less nitpicking, more wallslamming. I want my TL Noir Wave PI on the case, not choking on caffeine overdose.
- Even if the bus is actually between Ghandi and Soniv, then we're lynching their vet over their target practice dummy, which would hurt them
##Unvote
##Vote: Soniv
TL;DR: between the 40%* scum guy who gives me a bunch of information, and the 60%* scum guy who's all alone in his corner, I take the former. If someone wants Ghandi dead today he can just shoot him (no I'm not the poisoner).
* (Numbers totally arbitrary.)
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Uh, apparently I'm called out. Left work ~1h ago (7:45 PM here), noted some ideas but didn't put a proper post until I was home, but I'm fine with the mention.
The questions were out of curiosity about the mechanics (poisoner doesn't work that way in werewolves and we don't have roleblockers; werewolves actually have 0 power outside from their collective KP). I also asked about whether the jailkeeper can prevent a night kill by blocking the right guy (that one was motivated, although I'm not jailkeeper), and as a follow-up whether we'd end up with a tie if it comes down to jailkeeper vs random mafia goon.
See previous post, I am not the poisoner.
You're free to question me, you've missed that Requizen and Ghandi did it before though (I actually credited Req for it; same with Ghandi but I didn't say it aloud for him). EUW is down atm so even if I'll go to sleep earlier tonight I shouldn't be anywhere far during the meantime.
Re: Ghandi play vs Soniv play
I think it's irrelevant atm because with how the votes played out (it's 6-6 with me on Soniv, someone move off Ghandi), it's pretty much one or the other. Which means that if they're looking to survive (whether they're scum or town), they have to charge each other, creating a new bandwagon would probably not get enough traction at this point.
Putting myself in their shoes as a VT (since neither of them has claimed), I don't see what other (viable) play I'd have at my disposal. It's not a good move, but I see no good move for them to play, just the more logical/least bad one. Coincidentally, because the most they can do is "avoid scum play" over "make a good play", it's super easy for scum to fake "town play" in that particular situation.
I looked into both their filters but I don't see much to lean one way or the other because they're both pretty much doing the only sensible thing they can.
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Wtf Ghandi changed his vote. Ugh, that's why you see me make big posts once things calm down and not necessarily machinegunning one-liners while everyone's talking.
Ignore the last paragraph of my previous post, catching up to do.
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Wave:
+ Show Spoiler +what do you mean by "politician"? I assume it's not "pocketting people" since Asmo hasn't exactly done that (his big case on Soniv put people behind him but he didn't specifically try to get them). Trying not to get on the bad side of anyone, like when he always says "sorry" and backtracks if someone challenges him (unless he has backing already, like the Soniv case, again)?
About the bus thing, I mentioned it because it wasn't obvious to me, I thought about it a bit before but wasn't too confident in making such a call, then when I saw Asmo's post (that you noted too) it prompted me to think about it harder.
I didn't see anyone else mention it explicitly so I wanted to put it out here for everyone; when did you point it out or call it obvious?
Soniv:
+ Show Spoiler +About the key thing, this is how I view it (from reading today's filters only):
- before Ghandi switched and I voted, it was 6-5 for you. A tie would be against Ghandi I think, haven't checked hard, but iirc owb has the oldest post, and he isn't likely to switch, so for you to die people needed to switch. ComaDose certainly won't because he seems convinced that killing Ghandi will somehow clear him (and I think however Ghandi flips there are strong arguments against him either way, part of why I don't think lynching Ghandi will produce much), Cixah and ketchup don't look like they would either (ketchup offered a hand but I dunno how firm he is).
That means that Wave, because he tends to be listened to, and because he's one of the rare people not completely set yet, has the power to either force a tie or break it (even more so had he known I'd vote against you, that was 6-6 but Ghandi switched while I typed).
As for lynching you, sure there's a risk you'll flip green.
But not only do I think it's a tiny risk, we also stand to gain much more from your flipping (whether red or green, already said I'm coming for Asmo if you flip green myself) than Ghandi's. Both your posting has been a bit poor today, but I could easily attribute that to both of you being in a kinda deadlock for more of the day; and if given more liberty, I'm much more afraid of you leading us astray than I'd be of Ghandi. Even if he's scum he doesn't push us toward wrong lynches (that pretty much everyone ignores him doesn't help).
As of now we can't know which one of you is red, or if you aren't even both red (I don't see it as likely but it's not impossible), but I'm pretty damn sure one of you has to be scum, and your flip will give us more stuff to catch the remaining 2-3.
Add to that that I won't be around for the deadline in case of last minute shenanigans/twist (if you want to claim do it in the next 4 hours), and that I didn't think the situation could change (I'll admit I'm wrong, the new mordek wagon proved that with a perfect timing, uh), and I didn't see the point to fish for "maybe scum" instead of "very probably scum + info on the others".
If you give me a better lynch? I'll bow, and I'll switch to that. But my reasoning was (and still is, unless twists like a mordek slip or something) that it's between Ghandi and you tonight, and that you are the "better" lynch.
Ghandi that's noob-claiming and we've looked at Asmo funny already for that. You're just making your situation worse, and just because I voted Soniv doesn't mean I read you as town.
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On October 16 2014 03:07 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Oh good so basically TL;DR my reasons for everything is that I'm bad
A lot of people are newbies in this game, but you're one of the last people not actually catching on.
I don't necessarily buy that.
I was talking about that post in particular.
He hadn't by the time Wave talked about being the key, Mordek. After checking I think the tiebreaker is Asmodeus now who's as unlikely to switch (inb4 Asmo switches to you too), so the reason why Wave could claim to be the key remains, assuming we do end up deciding between Ghandi and Soniv.
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On October 16 2014 04:46 WaveofShadow wrote:
You both need to stop posting defenses and attacks of each other at this point.
Right now one of you is dead and we don't know which. If you're town then what you want to do is leave behind something that will help us win the game (because you can still win after you're dead). You have 4h.
Isn't that pretty much what I said by "Whatever if their posting atm is good or not, they're pretty much restricted to attack each other if they're only looking at suvival"?
Or at least that we couldn't evaluate them by that metric when deciding between them (and that by keeping doing that they pretty much dug it further between only the two of them).
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EPT
