EPTDetention Mafia - Page 4
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Please give me your read on slOosh. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 28 2014 07:17 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: *sigh* I hate when people say this. Dude, always vote for who you think is scummiest. Lynching for information comes off as a scum setting up their justification for when the lynched person flips green. If you don't want him dead because you think he's scum then you shouldn't be voting for him. I'm working on another post I might have to finish tomorrow morning. But, I was rereading everyone's filter and as a nod to Palmar, this also seems in line with your concerns regarding Meapak "wanting" to townread sqrt. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Two questions: On May 29 2014 11:46 Alakaslam wrote: Mderg is town. On May 29 2014 11:58 Alakaslam wrote: I will toss wise in there too. (1) What does the second post mean? I assume "wise" is a person but I don't know who. On May 28 2014 15:22 Amiko wrote: What did I agree with you about? I don't think I've really interacted with you this game besides a quick comment on your playstyle which wasn't direct. So I am confused a little by this post. (2) Could you answer this one? I'm not sure what you were referring to as far as agreeing | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
There’s other things that I think support scumreading him, but I think this is the best point so I want to start here and build. I think the central point is: After voting jabber, slOosh does nothing to develop his feelings on jabber. He doesn't try to get explanations from jabber or even follow up after jabber's responses This is the post where slOosh joins the vote for jabber. On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote: Seems straightforward. ##Vote: jabberwockzerg Initially, this is worrisome because slOosh is joining the wagon in a noncommittal way. He isn’t stating what he agrees or disagrees with. This is a “+1” post. This is potentially scummy because it’s bandwagoning without commitment. But the remainder of the day is what turns from suspicious to scummy. After his vote, slOosh does almost nothing on the lynch on jabber. So, take a look at other players’ actions D1. Other players question jabber – they are not sure on the lynch, so they want to get more information or talk about the issue more with other players. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOosh I went through every players' filter and I think almost all of them (maybe not Slam) support my read on slOosh as uninterested in the jabber lynch. This is a little long so I'll put it in a spoiler, but I really invite you to read through it. + Show Spoiler + 27Ninjabunnies: Many tons of interaction with jabber after she votes on him. + Show Spoiler + GOSH THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES. Here’s just a few – even after raising the case and voting jabber, bunnies asks him numerous questions to get more information. There’s significant back and forth between them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=6#116 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=7#126 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=8#145 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=8#150 I’m not going to list them all, there are plenty, look at bunnies’ filter, they are all over. She is not set on the lynch. This is the kind of reaction I would expect from town. Meapak_Ziphh doesn’t interact with jabber much, but he does comment on the case numerous times through D1 and explaining how he feels on the lynch. His filter doesn’t look as good as bunnies to me – he doesn’t really ask jabber anything directly or necessarily stir up discussion. I think he's kind of suspicious anyway, but he’s still better than slOosh. + Show Spoiler + Discusses reasons for joining vote - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=14#262 Says which situation he thinks is most likely - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=15#286 Still thinks jabber is best lynch - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#306 Directs comments to jabber (admittedly not in a helpful or inquisitive way) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=17#333 Gobbledydook: starts off with some hesitancy on the lynch and gives fair reasons, explains his thoughts as he goes, addresses comments to jabber as well. + Show Spoiler + Comments on lynch - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#161 Shows more certainty after jabber’s responses - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#308 Explains his comment - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#313 Addresses comments to jabber - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=20#383 HaruRH: A lot of Haru’s talk about JWZ is responsive, but he does address JWZ directly as well and comments on the lynch multiple times through d1. As an aside, rereading Haru’s talk D1 is the main reasons I now want to push slOosh over Haru. I still have doubts, for sure, but Haru’s level of interactionwith jabber feels so much higher than slOosh’s. + Show Spoiler + Talks to JWZ telling him to look elsewhere - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=7#130 Discusses his interactions with JWZ (this is in response to a direct question, though) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=7#137 Gives updates on play (again responses to question) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#165 Points out something he sees as scummy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#179 Talks with JWZ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#180 Explains thoughts (response) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#316 Comments on jabber http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#566 (more in filter) Sqrt: Sqrt was around when the case was made on jabber and interacted some with jabber and the players involved. He does ask jabber some questions and comments on jabber’s subsequent posts + Show Spoiler + Joking to jabber http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=6#113 Commenting on jabber’s response http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=6#115 Goes through reasons after voting http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=13#259, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=15#289 Specifically says jabber is his top scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#305 Comments on jabber’s subsequent posts http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=18#344 Asks for clarification from jabber http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=19#379 Alakaslam: Ehh slam doesn’t really do much better than slOosh in this respect. He does have a little more on JWZ but it’s not too substantial either. + Show Spoiler + Initial explanation of vote on jabber: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#240 More explanation/thought on jabber: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=14#261 Mderg, Fuba, Palmar: I’m not going back into their filters because I did a lot already, and I know these players talked a lot about the jabber wagon on D1 so I don’t really want to post links on them for no reason. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I just went through all these players. Why? It’s certainly possible for mafia to ask questions to jabber. They probably did! But, it is really hard for me to believe that town joins a vote on jabber, yet doesn’t seem to revisit the issue, talk about its merits with other players, or get some sort of confirmation from jabber. Pretty much every player in the game discussed the jabber lynch to some extent. Maybe we questioned jabber, or we explained our thoughts on why it could be a natural mistake, a scumslip, what jabber’s followup comments meant to us, etc. slOosh doesn’t ask any questions to jabber, or really follow up on the lynch. We get his explanation here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#229). After voting for jabber, slOosh's D1 is questioning other players on why they vote for jabber, talking about Slam & Palmar, etc. Seriously, take a look at his filter and see how little he has to say about the lynch that was there basically the entire day. Wheres other players expressed doubt through trying to get more information, press jabber for more information, etc., If you are town, you (like me) did not know whether jabber was mafia or not. You talked about the lynch, you read jabber's responses, and you probably considered them and wrote something about your reads. slOosh's d1 reflects indifference to the lynch. I feel that indifference comes from scum. ##Vote: slOosh | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOosh should be slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on jabber :x | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 30 2014 06:35 Chromatically wrote: (cut) One thing I thought was weird when I reread the early part of the day was how people rationalized their sheep onto jabber. I think that scum would not want to sheep on purely on the basis of the "slip", because scum would know that the slip had to come from town and was not actually scummy. So, scum would want to add additional justification. Sloosh doesn't actually speak out against the slip at all, as someone would do if they actually disagreed with it. He just adds this additional (pretty weak) justification on top of it. This doesn't feel like his original vote post, which appears like he's voting purely for reasons already stated: Scum sloosh would feel awkward about pushing jabber based on his not-actually-scummy slip. So when he is asked for justification for his vote, he feels the need to add something else that isn't actually that strong. He doesn't want to look like he's just sheeping AND he doesn't want to sheep on the slip that he knows is false. His filter doesn't look like he's trying to solve the game at all. He's got some softball questions to people, but doesn't push or pressure anyone. He almost never gives his actual thoughts on anything. (cut) I'm unfortunately out of time so I can't get to the rest of the people but that's what I really wanted to hit on. Top two scum are Sloosh and MZ. Just to be clear, Chrom’s points are not good because he died. Mafia can kill people whether they are right or wrong. Chrom's post here is good because he points out slOosh’s weak justification, filter that doesn’t seem to be searching for information, and softball questions from slOosh that reflect that slOosh is not trying to figure out the game. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
That's fair. I was going to wait to finish the case later, but figured I should post sooner so he can defend/explain. I feel pretty good voting slOosh now, though, because to me the scummy actions are spread out over the course of the day. It's not a scumslip comment where there's one thing to explain - here, there's a pattern of action (well, inaction). On May 30 2014 14:31 HaruRH wrote: Town sloosh may not talk much and elaborate since it is still day 1, a bandwagon is forming out of control and he is a VT with nothing much to do. This raises another point I think I can bring up that weighs in favor of seeing slOosh as scummy. slOosh has played mafia on forums previously. From the database post: + Show Spoiler + On December 25 2012 14:00 kitaman27 wrote: Newbie Mini Mafia III Town Medic Survived Surprisingly Normal Mini Mafia VII Town Vanilla Endgamed Newbie Mini Mafia IV Mafia Vanilla Survived C9++ Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Survived The Sum of All Fears Mafia Town KGB Agent Killed Night 2 TL Mafia Area LIII Town Vanilla Killed Night 1 Liar Game Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Endgamed TL Mafia LIV Town Vanilla Killed Night 1 Pick Your Power: Redux Town Parity Cop Killed Night 3 Pick Your Poison Mafia Town Innocent Child Survived Normal Mini Mafia II Town Miller Lynched Day 3 Bureaucracy Mafia! Mafia Chairman of the Board Killed Night 4 Mad Men Mafia Town Miller Killed Night 1 Dwarf Fortress Mini Mafia Town Mafia Survived TL Mafia LVII Third Party Assassin Victory Day 4 Liquid City Mafia Mafia Vanilla Survived Parallel World Mafia Mafia Balrog Killed Night 6 Dessert Mini Mafia Third Party Bulletproof Lynched Day 2 Nomination Mafia Town Vanilla Lynched Night 3 Personality Mafia 2 Town Caller Endgamed Night 3 Carnival Cruise Mafia Mafia Hammerer Lynched Day 4 Roulette Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 1 Catch 22 Mafia Town Ghost Survived Day 0 Sicilian Mafia Style Mafia Vanilla Lynched Day 3 World Heavyweight Championship mafia Town Vanilla Lynched Day 2 Okay, to be fair the last game listed here was back in 9/2013, so I don't feel like a meta read on him is likely to be that all that reliable. And, it's not like someone is going to be great at mafia just because they have played it a few times. However, I do feel like having prior games makes it less likely he would see the wagon on jabber as "out of control" or that he "wouldn't have much to do" - VTs have as much work to do as power roles do on D1, if not more. Even then, it doesn't make sense why slOosh would be basically the only player who isn't attentive to the jabberwock wagon. I think that just doesn't make sense from a town point of view. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
First look at this post by slOosh, we’ll then talk about how it differs from other players. On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote: I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. So, when you are offered the idea of a new wagon, you might expect a few responses. Players might propose some additional wagons, or use the situation to make reads. (ex: 27ninjabunnies, sqrt, fuba) + Show Spoiler + 27ninjabunnies: Suggests fuba as a potential other wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=24#471, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=25#496). Suggests me as a potential wagon (as a reaction test) (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=25#486). Sqrt: Proposed other wagons, even ended up voting on one. Gave some reasons, even if kind of weird, why he jumped around the wagons. Was pushing for second wagons and suggested some. Fuba: Suggested wagon on gobbledygook (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=28#556) Players might comment on the idea of other wagons as good or bad. (ex: mderg, M_Z, Palmar) + Show Spoiler + mderg: Comments on my proposal of Haru as a second wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=27#540). Comments on fuba’s proposal of a gobbledygook wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#561). M_Z: Says he is suspicious of players making secondary wagons while voting for jabber (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=26#509). Also discusses Palmar as a lynch candidate, but indicates he is skeptical (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=31#603). Palmar: Tells us not to raise other wagons (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#565) (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#572) and comments on the push on himself as an alternate wagon (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=24#468) Alakaslam: Like Palmar, states he does not want alternate wagons (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=27#533). Some players don't weigh in on wagons as much, but this is at least somewhat less suspicious because they spend some time defending wagons on themselves (gobbledygook, Haru). + Show Spoiler + gobbledydook doesn’t comment much on the existence of other wagons, but he does defend again fuba’s suggestion of him as an alternate wagon. HaruRH is kind of similar in that he defends against my points on him, though he does comment some on a potential Palmar wagon it’s limited. slOosh’s comments (above) are different. He doesn’t indicate whether he wants another wagon or not – he waits to see who is proposed Here are ALL OF SLOOSH’S POSTS that come after we are discussing a second wagon until the vote. I was going to put this in a spoiler tag, but then I saw how few posts there were so why bother. On May 29 2014 03:38 slOosh wrote: I assume he was piggybacking on the "seems straightforward" aspect. @Amiko, what do you mean by second wagon? What does that look like? On May 29 2014 03:54 slOosh wrote: Did the term wagon change while I was gone? Are you guys proposing lynching someone else today? On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote: I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. On May 29 2014 04:14 slOosh wrote: Oh I must have missed it. His posting style as is this game seems fine. I was more concerned if he was going to take it all the way ala last game, which is cause for concern as making your posts intentionally harder to read usually only makes sense from scum perspective. When I raise a wagon (as he says I should do soon) he doesn't even comment on it. So, as I said before, slOosh is scum because he doesn't weigh in on jabber, who should be a focus for the day. But, slOosh is also scum because he doesn't weigh in on any of the other wagons (Palmar, Haru, fuba) | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@Alakaslam re: wise (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=35#688) Oh, I just got confused by the post. For some reason I thought you were saying mderg is town, wise is also town. I get it now  @Pamar re: M_Z On May 30 2014 18:23 Palmar wrote: ##vote Meapak_Ziphh Dude's calling me town for thinking he's mafia. Classic scum. I am not entirely opposed to M_Z, but when I read them both I came away feeling there were a lot more reasons to doubt slOosh and I want you to vote with me today. slOosh is scummy based on repeated action/inaction. M_Z is suspicious for sure, but to me there's a lot more reasons (and stronger reasons!) to vote slOosh. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 30 2014 16:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Harurh, Palmar is almost certainly town at this point fyi. imo Amiko's case on slOosh is excellent, I'm curious to see who opposes it. Currently I hope the votes today will be on slOosh, but you are getting pressure, too. If my case is excellent, why not hop onto slOosh now so you can be a hipster with me and do it before it's cool? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I was already sure I was going to make a case on slOosh when I asked you for your thoughts, but I was able to feel good about you as town for raising the points you did before I committed to the case. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(1) He says he did not push jabber because wanted to see what jabber did if jabber was left alone. (2) He wanted to push other people, to maybe provide avenues for jabber to contribute. #1 This isn't that arguable, but it's more likely to come from scum. Jabber was left alone and he made comments that didn’t help us read him as town. Why would scum want to interject if jabber is doing a good job burying himself? At least slOosh does concedes that he didn’t push jabber, though, so you don’t need to read his filter to confirm that he didn’t push on jabber. Further, slOosh doesn't comment or push on jabber's subsequent posts. So, if he actually cared what jabber did, why did he seem to ignore what jabber did? #2 This is not a good explanation because it is not consistent with his play. As I pointed out here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=36#716), slOosh really did not push other players, despite a few other wagons forming as options. I don’t see him providing new points on the players or providing a line of questioning that jabber could jump into. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 30 2014 22:13 mderg wrote: I like the case on sloosh. I feel like it could just be lazy town, though. His play could make sense, if he took the jwz lynch for granted and didn´t really follow up on it because of that. Still he´s definitely high up in the list of suspects. I still think MZ is scummy. I already made my case on him and I feel like it still stands. ##vote: Meapak_Ziphh So I agree that M_Z has some scummy comments. But going through your case on Meapak (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=29#562), I think you could vote slOosh for the same reasons. (1) You suspect M_Z because he doesn't make a case to follow up on suspicious. slOosh doesn't make a case, and it's arguable whether he even makes suspicions. slOosh is scummier on this point. (2) You feel M_Z is scummy because he seems open to a Palmar lynch, but doesn't give reasons why. slOosh's comment about other wagons don't even say who he might be open to as an alternative, much less the reasons why. slOosh is scummier on this point. (3) You actually like a few things on M_Z's comments regarding jabber. I don't know if you like anything on slOosh. But either way, slOosh doesn't even focus on jabber. I think it's way more suspicious to basically ignore the main lynch candidate for the day. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 31 2014 06:58 sqrtofneg1 wrote: @amiko, just for clarification, you also think MZ is scummy, but you think sloosh is scummier, am I correct? Yeah, that's a fair description. I think most of the complaints about M_Z apply to slOosh, except moreso. And slOosh is scummy for other reasons, too. As an aside, I don't see slOosh voting M_Z as meaning they can't be on the same team... from my point of view they are the two best wagons right now. If slOosh wants to live, I think M_Z is probably the best alternate wagon for him to push on. I'm only here for a bit right now I'll try to post more this evening | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@slOosh - You did make a defense against my larger case (I don't find it convincing). Do you have any separate response to the points Chrom raised on you from D1? - What do you think is your best post from D1? Or like, the best thing you did D1? - Do you have any recent thoughts on Palmar/sqrt/Alakaslam? @bunnies: slOosh/palmar/M_Z is possible, but if so scum really likes to push each other. I mean, I don't feel that slOosh and M_Z pushing each other makes them not scum, but I feel like the interactions with M_Z<->Palmar make them less likely to both be scum. And I remember Palmar was reading the scumteam as slOosh/M_Z/gobble so I wonder if he would list both teammates as scumreads he would be willing to lynch? I have some other comments but they can wait until later if I remember them. I have a meeting thing in the morning so I'm not too sure where I will be tomorrow, I will try hard to be here before votes. If anyone feels like being helpful, please talk with (M_Z about Sloosh) and (Sloosh about M_Z) some because I meant to do that and then got tired. vote sloosh though :3 night!! | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
How do you not vote slOosh when nearly everything suspicious about M_Z also applies to slOosh, plus slOosh is scummier in other ways? @Palmar: You should also join my lynch on slOosh because fuba's play today is weird and he is pushing M_Z - if you don't see that I can argue about it. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
@Fuba: Can you clarify - do you actually think M_Z is scummier than slOosh? Or is your vote on M_Z just because you liked slOosh's last post? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 01 2014 08:08 fuba wrote: And to be clear, I've been reading Amiko as townie, but I feel that sloosh's reaction of considering him possibly scum because of the nature of this lynch makes sloosh more likely to be town. So it's clear to me that you are townreading slOosh. You feel his last post outweighs everything I wrote, enough that you townread him? And what is "the nature of the lynch" - I thought you were townreading him based on his responses in his last post? | ||
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