EPTFor example, I can't figure out how her posts some how assume that you're town. I've read that conversation repeatedly, and it just seems like you're reading into it waaaaay too much.
Golden Sun: The Lost Age Mafia Djinn Edition - Page 2
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
For example, I can't figure out how her posts some how assume that you're town. I've read that conversation repeatedly, and it just seems like you're reading into it waaaaay too much. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 21 2014 12:48 Cavalinho wrote: We should either make Cephiro make legible posts or waste him. I'm not reading that dogshit and I'm pretty sure he did this same kind of garbage zoning off into his own little world in Cell. o.o Where did this anger come from? You have a history with him or something? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Anyway, I'm going to give the thread another fresh readthrough and post my thoughts in a few hours. We need to start moving towards consolidation now that there are some actual lynch candidates about. | ||
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mtamburini's still my lynch of choice today. I've already made some thoughts on her larger quote-bomb post... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?page=38#745 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?page=40#787 ...and foolishness has a post on her as well... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?page=55#1087 Just to add to this though, I found this post which is all sorts of WAT: On May 21 2014 12:39 mtamburini wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 21 2014 11:45 Cephiro wrote: First up, the thoughts behind my questioning. While initially reading the thread I noticed 27ninja is a very cooperative person. Which is why I started the whole exchange with her. She takes part in the discussion a lot and actively, aiming to contribute (or look like contributing.) Her intention is to try and play as honestly as possible. Which again, is not a bad thing from a town perspective, but if you roll scum and try to play with the least amount of lies possible, it will be hard. The point of interest here is her admitting her annoyance to being called out on her play. She encourages others to share the reasons on hers, yet withholds her own for "reasons", are excused as: While I definitely agree with the logic behind it, her reasoning doesn't seem sincere. It's as if she wants to put content into the thread, but avoid (for now), making any decisions that may come to haunt her play later. Specifically: She doesn't want to be read as scum. Obviously, no town player does, but her play is (even self-admittingly) aimed at not being read as scum. Even if you are read as scum as a townie, it doesn't mean you can't manage to prove your town-ness. Surely, it's an uphill battle, but for someone putting as much effort as her in the game seems unlikely to be _that_ scared of being a misread as a town. Rather, I feel the fear comes from other players correctly reading her as scum. Analysis break: My questions, the reasons behind it, and my conclusions of her replies. The first exchange. My question here aims at finding the natural level of her thought process. It may not be the best comparison, but think about chess. What I'm aiming to find here is whether she thinks about: 1) The current move 2) The reasons behind the current move 3) The follow-up to the current move Or a multitude of the above. As you can see, she instantly jumps into an assumption that I vote her because I read her as mafia. She doesn't take her thought process further (into different possibilities), into questions such as: "Would he vote for me for a reason other than suspecting me as mafia?" Instead, she takes it for granted that I suspect her to be mafia. It fits well with her wanting to play as honestly as possible, trying not to doubt the claims of others. This I feel is a trait belonging to the person. So here I establish the fact that she doesn't think things ahead. Her thought process is not zero though, but considering the current step with the information given to her comes more naturally. (There are people who naturally start thinking multiple steps ahead.) Here is my followup. My question is intentionally aimed to hint at a possibility of thinking outside the box. As I came into the conclusion that she doesn't naturally by instinct start thinking things too many steps ahead, I wanted to see the reaction that would come after hinted towards doing such. Her response is quite interesting. She does correctly analyze on scenario, that is, if I didn't have a proper read and wanted to gain more information on her. There are many others she does not think about however. What I'm most interested in, is this crucial miss: She does not at all consider a possibility where I am scum. Ding ding, alarm bells anyone? Note how she points out that if I don't really consider her as mafia, I shouldn't be voting for her. Yet at the end of her post, she asks why I'm reading her as mafia. This means that she thinks (knows?) of me being a town player suspecting her, rather than any other possibility. Why could I not be a scum player trying to start a wagon on her? She doesn't even go through this option at all, even after being hinted to think outside the box. It's as if she knows I'm town. That's not possible unless she's scum. On to my third question: This question was mainly to confirm. I was fairly certain that she does not intentionally downplay her ability to mislead her opponent. Combined with the logical deduction of her naturally not thinking ahead, and with her honest tendency to answer questions, I have no reason to believe she'd be lying about this one either. It would be possible to downplay or not reveal your scumread to try and trap a person into a situation which essentially confirms them as scum to other players, or many shenanigans of the kind. Her response however is strictly related to her own confidence about her read. If she's sure about her read, she'll go for it (no downplaying). If she's unsure, she'll work to be able to trust her read enough to convince others. (Upping her own play.) With this I come into the conclusion that she is not downplaying her abilities when responding to others, or in any questions that she replied to me. This is exactly why I consider the 2nd question where she does NOT EVEN CONSIDER ME AS POSSIBLE SCUM extremely alarming. Also take in consideration how interested in she is in the reasons why I suspect her to be mafia. She doesn't just ignore and wait for me to actually provide something, but she actively asks for it again and again. If not combined with the above, I would see this as a townie trait, but I feel she is trying to get to know her mistakes/flaws in early play so she doesn't make the same mistakes later on. TLDR: 1) Is afraid of being seen as scum 2) Extremely co-operative due to not wanting to be looked upon badly, refer to point 1. 3) Ignores the possibility of the player questioning her being scum. 4) When suspected, wants to know the flaws in her play to not repeat the mistake later Like literally, for one moment she doesn't think I could be scum trying to push her for mislynch. 27ninjabunnies is mafia, and needs to be lynched. My vote stays where it is. Opinions? Goddamn bunnies back to scummy now, I need you to pretend your formaled and defend yourself. He brings up all the points I wanted to kill yellow in other game. Do I need to claim Bird Jesus again and say im going to shoot you and see if I get roleblocked? She quote's ceph's giant case on Bunnies and basically blindly agrees with it. There's no indication in this post that she's actually read the damn thing - it's almost like she looks at the case, sees it's big, and just sheeps it. Furthermore, the bolded comment is incredibly strange, given that yellow flipped town in the game in-question. You'd think she would exhibit more pause after wanting to lynch a townie for similar rationale, but instead she bolsters her suspicions with it... that just makes very little sense from a town perspective. Of all the points against her, I think this is the most compelling. Ritoky/Valenius I've seen these two mentioned as possible scum candidates. Austin's case on Ritoky is somewhat compelling, however I don't think it takes into account the sheer difference between a mini-newbie game and a 32-person monster-spamfest. The wishy-washiness to me could be explained by how intimidating/confusing this thread is to a newer player. Hell I'm having problems keeping track of this myself, and I'm considered a "vet." All and all, I agree that they're playing differently than their town metas have shown in the past, but I think that it could be explained by the difference in gametypes. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On May 22 2014 06:57 marvellosity wrote: ##Sheep: Koshi ##Vote: layabout I'll get to layabout in a bit, but I'm curious what you think of Koshi? | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 07:05 Holyflare wrote: just saying tambo is a guy ~_~ Gealwkefjalskdjfawef why do people keep calling him "she"? | ||
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On May 22 2014 07:05 marvellosity wrote: Obviously they aren't the greatest, and they're pretty non-committal. Can't argue with that. But as mentioned, a plausible explanation is newbie in massive game trying to find his feet and finding it tough. Could also explain his obsession with bunnies, although that can go either way. Your points are valid enough but there's things weighing down in the opposite direction that don't make it super strong. layabout's threadcop posts are the opposite of townie, he'll make them as both alignments, but more so as mafia I believe. And it's the fact that the content outside these posts is so irredeemingly poor that's the real issue (both none and bad are apposite descriptions). For some reason this kinda reminds me of long ago in LIX on Day 1 when you were pushing Stutters really hard and I was pushing prplhz. Your points were valid enough, but meh. On the bright side, you were town that game  I was looking at some of his past games. He's definetely thread-cop'd as town before. The weird thing about his play is that he's perfectly capable of having very forceful/direct suspicions as mafia, and in all 4 of his mafia games, he had some pretty early tunnel target. His town play is slightly more inquisitive, but also is fairly direct. So his fairly inconclusive posting this game is something of a wildcard, and I'm not sure what to make of it. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On May 22 2014 07:10 ritoky wrote: I am back now, sorry for my lack of posting recently, my dog got really sick and had to go to the vet. Can you respond to austin's case on you? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?page=78#1554 On May 22 2014 07:10 marvellosity wrote: Disagree all you like, but I still like his kinda left-field MZ explanation enough that there's no way he's my choice above layabout ^_^ He talked about MZ? Where? Also, surely you can understand just how terrible this post is >> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/440546-golden-sun-the-lost-age-mafia-djinn-edition?page=45#896 | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 07:17 marvellosity wrote: I even quoted and bolded it Hapa. Jeez man. Wait who are you talking about? Tambo? | ||
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But I'm not advocating lynching ritoky over layabout. I'm advocating lynching Tambo over layabout >> | ||
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On May 22 2014 08:00 Cavalinho wrote: WoS, look into Steveling. HF is town and Hapa is also probably town. I'm boggled by the fact that marv said having a huge filter is good for town. It's not when there's nothing there but useless garbage that clogs up the thread and doesn't accomplish anything. Also, who said we should lynch layabout? When you're talking about a guy that gets lynched day 1/2 a lot, maybe, just maybe you should take the quality of their play into consideration. Maybe I'm biased because I got lynched day 1 a lot for stupid reasons, but I still really want to kill Steveling today over anything and everything else for the moment. I'd be really wary of people who say that just having a big filter is good for town. Steveling would be a terrible lynch. I get that you don't like his play, and his play is very spammy, but it's also very clearly town. Just because his spam is "contentless" doesn't mean it isn't genuine. Look at some of his other games - he plays like that all the time. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 08:04 Cavalinho wrote: Before we start arguing, I want to know what "genuine" is. Genuine can be many things. What's "townie" about his filter is that he's constantly posting without thinking, getting into many fights, and is generally wearing his emotions on his sleeve. Contrast this with normal mafia instincts to hide, avoid conflict, etc. Also, look at his past games and compare them to this one. If you haven't done that, then your analysis is meaningless. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 08:09 layabout wrote: If marv convinces yall to lynch me, which i am rather tempted to just let happen you should flip this guy: this is his first and only mention of me. it is unsubstantiated but follows the tone of the thread. a list takes a significant amount of time to produce compared to a sentence or two to explain your vote, he is putting in time but missing out the important bit for a towny. it looks very much like a mafia vote to get a wagon rolling he is giving momentum to a trail of thoughts without adding anything of substance to it whatsoever. I am dissapointed in you guys Be dissappointed in your own play. This is literally the first read of any substance you've made all game. Talk to me about some other people - mtamburini and ritoky are a good start. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 08:12 Cavalinho wrote: I've played with him before. He is doing the exact same thing he was doing in Cell, making people feel smart and getting people to ignore him. It's spammier than normal, but that's not the issue that I have with him. Like some of the players right now are just calling it boring (Koshi) without trying to see if it's legitimately true or not. Why is this not an issue for you? Nothing in this post describes why Steveling is scum. You compare his play in Cell to his play here, but they look very different at first glance to me. He is definetely active in Cell, but seems a lot more calm. Compared to this game, he's picking fights and is generally an attention-whore. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On May 22 2014 08:20 Cavalinho wrote: Then check my filter for the big, red-titled post on why I thought he was scum. But that's the thing - those types of posts you point out "after the spam" really aren't present in Cell Mafia. He just seems as a whole so much more hyper and emotional in this game. Anyway, talk to me about some other people. Layabout, tambo, ritoky, etc. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 08:21 Holyflare wrote: hapa you need to answer this ^^^^^^ replace yuma with glory seeker Wait dafuq? Where did I ever say he had an "obvious town meta?" My read is more objective than anything else. Anyway, the town game I did look at from him is... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/449650-glory-seeker-mini-mafia The TL Database isn't always complete or up to date. When I look at the difference between his mafia and town games, he's just so much more carefree/hyper/reckless in his town games. His mafia games are certainly active, but surprizingly placid. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 08:30 geript wrote: Hapa did you read cell? He got in shitfights in cell too. Like I really don't get your characterization of his play. I read the first 10 pages of his filter in Cell - I haven't seen anything close to the fights he's gotten into with players in this game | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On May 22 2014 15:01 geript wrote: If by all the time, you mean his one game as town... I have. I pointed out that he's gotten in shit fights as scum before. As a matter of fact, as town, he got in far less shitfights AND his posting was far more full of actual content. He was pretty whorish too. Plus for getting in as many fights as he's had, in all of those, he's been the calm one in them. He's the one who cares about whether or not he gets in trouble for it. I agree that his play on face value looks different from Cell. But it also looks exceptionally different from Glory Hole. The trends in his play are far more reflective is his Cell game than his Gloryhole game. Like I really don't get how you could meta a player so awfully. Mine explaining why you've protected Scumeling so many times on bad meta? I really don't know how to say it any better than I have: the guy has a fucking 10 page filter in 24 hours. If you think mafia can do that, you're insane. But then again, I really don't feel like arguing any more since... a) There's no way I'm going to convince someone confirmation biased enough to call the guy "scumelling" over and overa gain. b) Steveling isn't getting lynched. My target of choice is. c) The "oats-whisperer" does not get to lecture me on how to interpret meta cases. | ||
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Hapahauli
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On May 22 2014 16:28 geript wrote: I'm honestly not sure I've been as frustrated playing mafia as I have with this game. When I'm not "going crazy" nobody likes or listens to my points. When I am "going crazy" nobody likes or listens to my points. I think i'm just going to start randomly voting for people and making posts like, "Dat gui soo scummy. Weird post. I am towniest town evar." I should also probably make sure every other post is mine and no longer than a line or two. I should also treat the thread like twitter: no posts longer than 140 characters. Like this game is pretty ridiculous when we can't lynch someone who doesn't bother to read or think about the game, who adds nothing to it, etc. Like honestly Hapa, can you think of one useful post that Scumeling has made? Any single one. Because when you can't, I don't get why you think his 11 page filter makes him town when he's proven that filter length is in no way alignment indicative for him. I haven't seen the non-crazy side of you this game yet. You started off fake-claiming vigi to everyone who could hear you, then latched on to tunnel the most spammy and poster in the thread. I've taken your cases seriously, and I've spent more time looking at Steveling's past games than I should have, thinking that I must have missed something about his play. However your case at-best says that he's null. At worst, it's seething with confirmation bias against an obvious townie. I believe it's the latter. And goddamnit it's frustrating to have this same argument with you over and over again. Because... a) You insist on pushing your cases in the most dickish way possible, immediately dismissing anyone who disagrees with you. b) The language of your cases shows very *obvious* confirmation bias - like ffs you're calling the freggin guy "scumeling." c) You refuse to do ANYTHING other than tunnel a guy into the ground. Like hell, give me thoughts on another of the wagons or something. Many players have taken their time to talk about Steveling, and you refuse to return the favor and contribute to town discussion. | ||
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