EPTThe TL [N][M] - Page 3
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Crossfire99
United States1529 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
I've always felt that 20 person games and 30 person games had a completely different feel to them. I guess I'll start putting them in the normal slot from now on (except for Titanics  ) | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On December 31 2013 12:25 kushm4sta wrote: wasn't gsl instant majority though? Yeah but it doesn't have to be. | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On December 31 2013 07:15 Foolishness wrote: I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't come up with the exclusive "TL Mafia Normal Mini" setup (with a catchier name of course). I wouldn't force the normal mini queue to just be only this type of game if it existed. This would serve as more of a default setup or go-to setup, with hosts having the power to tweak numbers/roles if they so desire for their own game. I agree. If we want to constantly run minis, we need a default setup that any host can use immediatly. With this, we avoid a situation where a new game is delayed because there is no host who has a setup ready. If someone wants to use his own setup (eg. Blazinghands GSL setup), then he is free to do so. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
edit: mostly because unlike larger games and/or themed, you have the 1kp/night standard, which makes it extremely easy to deal with | ||
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phagga
Switzerland2194 Posts
On December 31 2013 19:42 marvellosity wrote: ? I'm not saying we shouldn't necessarily have a setup "ready", but it takes a few minutes to balance a normal mini setup... edit: mostly because unlike larger games and/or themed, you have the 1kp/night standard, which makes it extremely easy to deal with Then I misunderstood you, disregard my comment. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
12 players Mafia kp is 1 Mafia kp is deliverable 9 town 3 scum Mafia roles: GF, RB, mason, tracker, vig, framer and goon Town roles: RB, cop (sane), parity cop, miller, doc, JK, tracker, watcher, vig, masoner, mason pair, vet, nosy neighbour Notifications Roleblock: yes Doc save: no Vet hit: yes Does anyone disagree with the above? Of not we should move to create some form of point system similar to Xatalos' with which to balance the games easily and independently of needing to submit them to the balance team every time. We could then have the TL normal mini as a setup which did not need balance approval making it quick and easy to run. Any variations would need to be approved by a member of the balance team. Thoughts? | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
You may have already reached this conclusion, I'm not caught up, just throwing that out there. Also, Nosy Neighbor should be a role. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On January 02 2014 06:19 Promethelax wrote: So my understanding of the agreements reached herein: 12 players Mafia kp is 1 Mafia kp is deliverable 9 town 3 scum Mafia roles: GF, RB, mason, tracker, vig, framer and goon Town roles: RB, cop (sane), parity cop, miller, doc, JK, tracker, watcher, vig, masoner, mason pair, vet, nosy neighbour Notifications Roleblock: yes Doc save: no Vet hit: yes Does anyone disagree with the above? Of not we should move to create some form of point system similar to Xatalos' with which to balance the games easily and independently of needing to submit them to the balance team every time. We could then have the TL normal mini as a setup which did not need balance approval making it quick and easy to run. Any variations would need to be approved by a member of the balance team. Thoughts? Does anyone disagree with this post? If not ill start working on a simple balancing act based around this set-up. Your input will improve TL mafia! Think of the glory, the adoring fans, the supermodels! | ||
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LSB
United States5171 Posts
On January 02 2014 06:19 Promethelax wrote: So my understanding of the agreements reached herein: 12 players Mafia kp is 1 Mafia kp is deliverable 9 town 3 scum Mafia roles: GF, RB, mason, tracker, vig, framer and goon Town roles: RB, cop (sane), parity cop, miller, doc, JK, tracker, watcher, vig, masoner, mason pair, vet, nosy neighbour Notifications Roleblock: yes Doc save: no Vet hit: yes Does anyone disagree with the above? Of not we should move to create some form of point system similar to Xatalos' with which to balance the games easily and independently of needing to submit them to the balance team every time. We could then have the TL normal mini as a setup which did not need balance approval making it quick and easy to run. Any variations would need to be approved by a member of the balance team. Thoughts? Mason Pair seems pretty OP, especially in a mini. Having two easily conformable townies is pretty risky. I also feel like masoner is a little to exotic as a role to be considered a mini mafia setup and shouldn't be considered standard. The point system is all right, however I would like for the host to be able to assign points totals to fit in a range, probably from -2 to +2, in order to make fakeclaiming easier. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9675 Posts
On January 03 2014 16:12 Promethelax wrote: Does anyone disagree with this post? If not ill start working on a simple balancing act based around this set-up. Your input will improve TL mafia! Think of the glory, the adoring fans, the supermodels! It's nice that you mention my balance tester, but I wouldn't say it's the optimal way for creating a super balanced / standard setup... It's more like a guideline for creating decently balanced setups very fast and easily. I don't think it's possible to create a point system like that where the resulting setups wouldn't need at least a quick review by a human. There are just too many variables (role interactions etc.) to make any automatic method 100% accurate. If you want to have a "standard" setup that wouldn't need any further review, I think the best option might be to create a large amount of very balanced setups and to only reveal some basic facts about the setup (such as possible roles) before the game starts. Then the actual setup is randomized from a list of possible setups. That way you could have a very balanced "default" setup while retaining the mystery of not knowing the exact setup. It's a slight problem, though, that the longer the game goes on, it becomes easier to deduce the setup being used in that particular game (especially for Mafia since they have extra information about the roles in the game). That's why I think it'd be best to have a very large amount of these possible setups with slight variations - so many that it'd become fruitless to even think about basing your reads on setup speculation. I think your proposed basic facts about a setup for 12 players are good (9 town, 3 scum, 1 KP etc.). Out of curiosity, I checked what was the default suggested setup for 12 players in the balance tester, and it's very similar: Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Vanilla Townie Doctor (no self-save) Cop Mafia Goon Mafia Goon Mafia Roleblocker Balance score: -0.5 (very trivially in favor of Mafia) Town victory odds: 49.12% Mafia victory odds: 50.88% | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
1. Follow-the-cop needs to be hard or impossible to achieve. Usually the only way this will work in a mini is by removing the doctor role and replacing it with JK, or ensuring that doctor and cop cannot be present simultaneously. One could argue that you could leave it in the game by just having a scum RB but I would say even that is questionable, given that the loss of the RB generally means the loss of the team as a whole. I think if the setup degenerates that easily to follow-the-cop then it inherently is not balanced. Thus I would strongly be against the inclusion of any normal medic/doctor type role in normal minis, even though the role itself is "normal". 2. I would advocate for making 13p minis and 9p minis standard. I can't for the life of me find the article on mafiawiki that explained why mafiascum switched from 12p minis to 13p minis in 2011 (look at this list: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=List_of_Mini_Normals ) but when I was researching C9++ I came across the rationale for that and agreed with it myself pretty strongly. I think mafia might have been winning too many games or something like that. It could very well be possible that 12p normals are more balanced than 13p normals. At a glance it would seem that way, given that both sides need the same number of lynches to win. In 13p games mafia need one extra lynch that town does not need (or a no-lynch on a particular day). If 12p normals are standardized then I would suggest removing the no-lynch option-this (if I calculated it out right) forces the game to end after one side has achieved 3 "correct" lynches. Then ties would work like this: If #mafia = #town, mafia wins. Otherwise, if two candidates have the same # of votes, then the first to reach the max dies. (you could make a normal "twist" mini by making double or even triple lynch possible in the case of ties) With C9++ in particular I think 13 players are necessary because of the possibility of more (and more powerful) blues. By including additional scum/town powers I think you need to dilute the pool with an extra vanilla player, but you also need to include a no-lynch option. The game becomes slower and lasts longer, which should usually favor town a bit more than a 12p mini that will basically end after 3 mislynches or 3 scum lynches. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
...I can't for the life of me find the article on mafiawiki that explained why mafiascum switched from 12p minis to 13p minis in 2011 I found it... eventually. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14635&start=0 EDIT: In reference to this: Thus I would strongly be against the inclusion of any normal medic/doctor type role in normal minis, even though the role itself is "normal". Do you feel that making a doctor unable to protect the same target twice in a row is sufficient to solve the problems with the role? I have my doubts, but it is at least a step in the right direction. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
 , it'll give us a place to start talking.Hypothetical Standard Normal Mini 13 players: 10 town, 3 mafia, no 3P. + Show Spoiler + Doubtless you could modify the setup to possibly include 3P but I'm against making that possibility the standard. Basic Idea: + Show Spoiler + Town get 1 or 2 power roles from the following list: EDIT: Whether this is 1 or 2 is randomly determined, probably a coinflip. Sane Cop Jailkeeper X-Shot Vigilante (1 or 2, leaning towards the latter) Mafia get an equal number of roles from the following list: Godfather Roleblocker Role Cop The idea behind these choices is that all available roles are of at least comparable power with no especially powerful synergies, so that any combination of them can be used. (For example, scum having both a Framer and a Godfather is probably much different to only having one or the other. Same for Doctor and Cop - or Doctor and anything with a power, really.) I think most possible combinations will be more-or-less balanced, or at least have similar balance to each other. Balance can be adjusted with the changes suggested below, or other changes entirely. Possible Changes: + Show Spoiler +
My Concerns: + Show Spoiler +
I'll edit this if anything else occurs to me. | ||
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