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We gather here today to ready ourselves for a great endeavor. To create the first ever unique to TL Normal Mini set up. We gather to theory craft our way to brilliance.
Some thing to consider:
1. In the past our normal minis have had between 9 and 16 players with between 2 and 4 scum.
2. Normal minis can but often don't include a third party.
2a. The third party in [N][M] is almost exclusively the SK, with an occasional survivor.
3. The set-up should probably be, in some way, variable to prevent the easy gaming of the set up done in C9++ games or 2of4 set ups.
4. This set up should reflect the way we on TL approach balance and not the way that things are balanced on any other site.
5. The set up should be fun!
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
So I'd just like to put my GSL / British Empire setup on the chopping block. As it stands it's probably not ideal for a normal mini setup (instant majority, non-standard named VT role) but I've always had fun with it. Currently it's town-favored.
The setup:
7 town, 2 scum, 4 potential setups. players don't know which one is being used. Docs are non-conseq, Cops are Parity. BoxeRs have no power but receive a unique PM, so can be claimed as a role. Scum RB notifies.
A: 1 Doc, 1 Cop, 5 VT, 1 Goon, 1 Scum RB
B: 1 Doc, 1 BoxeR, 5 VT, 2 Goon
C: 1 Cop, 1 BoxeR, 5 VT, 2 Goon
D: 2 BoxeR, 5 VT, 1 Goon, 1 Scum RB
I used Instant Majority in these games, which probably increased the town advantage. Ways to balance could include removing RB notifications, getting rid of IML, reducing the number of blues, telling scum the exact setup.
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Though I always loved these games I think my major issue with this set-up which pushed it too far into the town favoured category was the inability of scum to fake claim. Claimants were confirmed town every time.
My goal for a TL[N][M] would be to allow big plays from every side and to never have the easily confirmed town of set ups like BH's minis.
One way I see to counter act that with your particular set up Blaze is to remove the Named VTs and to make them simply VTs so that town is unsure of the total number of blue roles.
Another way for that set up would be to have only alignment flips and not role flips so that if doc/named vt/cop died early scum could fake claim blue. This would reward the scum team for sniping blues early on and could lead to a more balanced game.
I'd like to collect a number of minis we have run in the past which were considered normal and look at whether we believe they were town or scum favoured and where the middle ground is.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I'd say it should be 12-13 players, not 9, if we're going for a default size
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
12 players, 3 of whom are scum is a nice size. Can also be 13 players, 3 of whom are scum.
I think our default roles included/available should include cop, parity cop, doctor, jailkeeper, veteran, vigilante for sure. Maybe not parity cop?
what do you guys think of trackers/watchers? How about scum delivering KP vs KP being factional?
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I think nine, three, one is the way to go. Kp = 1. Factional kp.
Town roles
Doctor
Vig
Vet
Cop/parity cop
Tracker/Watcher
Scum roles
Roleblocker
Godfather
Framer
3p
Sk
Assassin (given name of target. Wins if target dies before him. No bullet)
Don't really like survivor/jester as I feel it just encourages lurking/being useless
Need to think about potential groupings of the roles.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I think kp should always be 1. My definition for "normal mini" (at least in my head) includes scum only ever having 1 kp. They might have a vigi or something but the "1 kp" thing is how I usually frame mini vs non-mini though peopel may disagree.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Really don't see why 3p would be 'standard', I'd infinitely prefer games without them, personally
edit: yes, 1kp also, not some formula
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If be fine with one if it's factional. Delivered feels weaker with only one.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Risen???
Hundreds of thousands of mini normals across the universe have been run with 1kp delivered. It's really not a thing to even worry about
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I'm just trying to think of a way to make ours unique. I prefer higher powered setups is all
Edit: I'm updating my initial post as we discuss this lol
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
It needs to be good before it needs to be unique
It needs to be a setup that everyone wants to play as well.
Simple is usually better, it just needs to have variety.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I personally am a fan of the factional KP but I also see why people like the delivered KP. Delivered KP DOES allow for a bit of flexibility though. So like, if town doesn't have a JK, you can have KP be delivered and give town a Tracker rather than a Cop. This will be a weaker role because the Tracker only gets a "red check" if he is tracking the correct member of the scumteam.
We don't have to do it though, we could go with factional. What are our thoughts on RB notifications?
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Then maybe drop the sk and just leave the assassin as 3p? I like games with third parties but if simple is the way to go I could see dropping the faction entirely and going nine, three with more blues
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Delivered KP is amazing for flexibility. For the flexibility reason alone I think it's pretty superior as an option to factional
Not sure about RB notifications, it could just be something that's tweakable depending on setup I suppose? Don't see why it has to be set in stone, even in a template
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Rb should notify for sure.
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I think if we're going for simple the role should be set in stone, yeah?
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I could see reasons to NOT have RB notify. One fun thing about RB non-notification is it means town has a little less info about whether or not scum has an RB. If we're going to be running mostly or entirely closed, I'd see a reason for that. RB Notifying gives an extra thing for scum to play with (fakeclaiming RB for example) but gives town also a little more info.
Also, what do we think about open/closed?
Open - everyone knows the setup.
Semi-Open - there are a list of setups, people don't know which one it is.
Semi-Closed - there is a list of roles, people don't know how many (if any) of each role there are
Closed - all anyone knows is the number of scum
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EPT
