EPT[I] [S] Shadow Mini Mafia - Page 67
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:18 WaveofShadow wrote: No, that's fine obviously. What you need to understand is that I believe that could have come from town, and just because we may disagree on that doesn't make me scum. Nor does my different perspective (and methodology) of providing reads make me scum either. I believe if you really consider (and normally I wouldn't ask anyone else to do this because I don't have much faith in meta, but I do you are particularly good at it) the way I play in my past games, you should be able to find reconciliation with the way I've played here. Why do you think I'm fencesitting like a baws? ^^ I guess mostly I'd like to see the rest of your content. And for VE and Toad to come play the game some. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:20 marvellosity wrote: Why do you think I'm fencesitting like a baws? ^^ I guess mostly I'd like to see the rest of your content. And for VE and Toad to come play the game some. Well the rest of my content will probably look like the earlier parts of my content, so if you didn't like that much I can't say for certain you'll like what's coming. Still going to do it though, if you guys are done w/me for now. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
The rest of us risk running round in circles discussing the same points otherwise. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 24 2014 07:55 Toadesstern wrote: sorry my bad, I read really quickly and I just didn't remember anything from you. I assumed I must have forgotten anything but if you weren't there than you obviously weren't there to begin with. However, it's the same problem I'm having with VE. I can see a good reason for mafias not to post during the last 20 minutes. It does sound a little convenient. Like thsi is Toad's main reason for calling me scum, because he didn't 'notoice' what I did when I wasn't around. When I correct him he says 'whoops but you weren't around for thsoe last 20 min and mafia would totes do that.' If he actually bothered to read my filter he'd know it was a lot longer than20 minutes. Just horrible misrepresentation here and he brings up absolutely NO other rationale before ethis point, just saying 'I found him scummy for some reasons.' he LATER brings up a case, but this looks like he picked a target and is finding the rationale later. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
There IS NO OTHER CASE. I'm scum for Toad simply because I couldn't be around at time of lynch. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Anyway gonna do a full filter of Foolishness now. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 23 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote: Bringing light to the fact that your post was incredibly weird minus the last two sentences. It was really odd, and I don't think I'm the only one who said so. You're town and we all know it. Don't pull a gonzaw. 1) I explained why I kept my vote on WoS, since then he has responded and I liked what he said. He's being very affirmative and speaking his thoughts. When I first accused him early in the day I thought the opposite of this (also explained in my earlier posts). Now he's here, he's posting, and he's trying for the town. And that's the direction I started to lean towards when I made my big post. My vote on WoS was to affirm this suspicion, and also to get other people to comment on it. 2) Don't know what you're exactly referring to. But you were being trolly at the start of the day and it was impossible to know what your motives were. Your motives are clear now. As I also said in my recent post, you dying would answer a lot of questions. Not that that's going to happen anytime soon (or ever really). 3) Promethelax is scum. WoS probably not. Read above. 4) Nope. ##Unvote ##Vote: Promethelax Hey so Foolishness, I'm still doing what you described. Am I still town? If I'm not, your townread was weak to begin with because I haven't changed my behaviour any, and it was just a method to brush off the crappy way you attacked me and called me scum and then started to back off in the first place. On January 23 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Marvellosity. He's posted a bunch and hasn't done anything. Can you tell me without looking at his filter something that marvellosity has done for the town this game? + Show Spoiler + The real answer to your question is "both" Are you going to vote for HolyFlare then? Looking at this now makes me want to try even harder to confirm VE's Foolishness/Sandroba/Prome scumteam. Prome's early push on Prome was okayyy, but then he doesn't do anything else about it even when prome returned to thread. makes sense from the POV that he wanted to let his buddy come back and start to look better while making his own early case look weaker, and if so mission successful. His question about if I'm going to vote Holy looks like a deflection given the above scenario. (Toad/Prome/Fool can't all be scum so once I'm done I'm going to have to consider everything at once---just going through it atm) On January 23 2014 05:57 Foolishness wrote: I already said that I'm prefectly okay with HolyFlare getting lynched. And by perfectly okay, I really mean okay. As in, if guys are that convinced that Promethelax needs another chance then please let me know now so I can move my vote. Same as above. Looks horrible if VE is right. On January 23 2014 06:39 Foolishness wrote: It's nitpicking cause I said that his opening was fine (when he first started posting). And I posted that not too long after he was here and posting (check the timestamps). Now you're claiming that I am, but am not but maybe I was interested and oh here's a quote from Liar Game with some analysis that is only tangentially related to my argument. At least Gonzaw's tunneling has conviction behind it (which is why he's town and you aren't). Show some conviction if you think I'm mafia. I would not bat an eye if sandroba died. The problem is is that Promethelax is mafia and there is solid information on why. What's the information saying sandroba is mafia? oh he's inactive. Well great, welcome to day 1 sandroba. Moooooore deflection, this time from sandroba. And he hard defends sandroba the rest of that day if i remember correctly. Question then becomes is that something a mafia Foolishness would do? I'd be inclined to say no tbh, but in discussions other people have had about Foolishness I get the idea that a lot of 'classic' tells that wouldn't necessarily work on most people would still work on Foolishness---like defending a scummer. That one is just gut feels though so I'd probably have to give the above a null or even slight towniness since I find hard defending a scummer that will be lynched a little bit ridiculous---unless he started defending him assuming he wouldn't pick up enough steam and by the time it did it was too late to stop...? On January 23 2014 06:53 Foolishness wrote: 1) To see how people would respond to it, but mostly to see how he responded. I quoted his first post (which is suspicious as I've already explained) so that you would know where I saw the evidence before I revealed my whole hand. 2) Which 2 guys? I'm pretty sure I explained everything here. + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote: Here's what I think is going on this game. There are quite a few questionable people in this game, but by eliminating some obvious town players things start to make more sense. Towniest of towns Hapa VE Kitaman Hapa is by far the most town person in this game? Why, put simply if you read his filter he is here, he is active and he is pushing pro-town agendas. This is seen because he is generating conversation, trying to organize the town and get everyone on the same page, and questioning suspicious players where appropriate. This is not a matter of debate if you have read the thread. Kitaman is similar in matter and this has already been brought to light by a few players. Actually when I started reading the game yesterday his posting reminded me a lot of myself. Slight trolly attitude to try to get things moving, but when push came to shove he was there to call people out on their shit. Now, if you want to read into that and say, "But Foolishness, Kitaman is usually a strong analyzer, posting paragraphs of information and analysis about a person's behavior and actions" I got nothing to say back about that yet. Though I'm sure time will confirm what I think here. The thing with VE is that yes, on his own some of his posts are suspicious. This one in particular made me raise an eyebrow: + Show Spoiler + On January 22 2014 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Morning guys. Marv no, I don't think it's the same kind of Prome that I'm used to seeing. What it reminds me of is that game I was the mayor and lynched the piss out of Prome D1. He was a lurky little shit that game, but I caught him on something very similar to what I noticed this game. Like I think it's awful that I have to ask this, but did you read my post on him? That being said, I at least dig one of his targets. I asked Foolish about his thoughts on this same matter and what I got is "lol you and Hapa townies" which is definitely NOT what I was after. He answered my question as if he'd read the exchange between us, but left me with a feeling that he hadn't actually read anything at all. If I see one more person say they're going to ignore my posts, I won't be responsible for the outcome. You have been warned. where the first two paragraphs seem really out of place and forced, though the last two sentences of the post read very town. However I think if you just read through his filter and analyze it as a whole there's nothing to be afraid of. Is he pushing any sort of mafia agenda? No. Does it feel like he doesn't have the town's best interest in mind? No. Does it feel like he's actually trying to figure things out? Yes. Now I can see why some people have shed some suspicion on him (unlike anyone calling Hapa or Kita mafia), but he just does not feel mafia, and he's definitely interested in the game. Questionable players Austin sandroba marvellosity Holyflare Gonzaw This is roughly in order of most to least town. Austin and sandroba might as well be afk until 3 pages ago, but since coming to the thread both have had strong appearances. I'm okay with them right now because they have brought things to the thread, and it is also obvious that if they continue their activity then they are town. If they keep going afk for long periods of time then start to worry. But I don't feel like that will happen. The following 3 people are all in the ? category. Marvellosity and Holyflare in particular because for all that they have said I don't feel they have really contributed much. Even as I'm writing this I'm thinking back, "what has marvellosity or holyflare done this game", and I cannot remember a single post they have made. That's a bad sign. Anything mafia indicative off the bat? No so much, but then seem to be here without actually being here. Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that. mafia Promethelax WaveOfShadow I will go into a little more detail here. What about this post is good? He says generic things that anybody can say. Also the "Let's do something" seems incredibly forced. What does he hope to accomplish by saying that? I don't know (most likely he's mafia) and it feels like he's trying very hard to sound like he's vested in the game (when all he would have to do is just post whatever his thoughts are). And then there's this post as well. Which fails to do nothing but ask more questions of which he never followed through on (neither of them really followed through on to be honest), when he could do have done something like actively push Promethelax to say something of substance. The thing about Promethelax is that his first post is a big pile of words and nobody said anything about it besides WoS which was just a passing remark. Here's the post again: + Show Spoiler + On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote: Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something. Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers. It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen. I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies. And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum. Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money. So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. Promethelax even admits that his post is awful and that we should call him out on it. Sounds great to me! This kinda bait is definitely a mafia trait and if he thinks he's posting bad then we should definitely lynch him for it. The reason being, if he knows his post his bad why is he making it in the first place? His initial post accomplishes nothing and says nothing and only adds fluff to the thread. I am also bothered by his most recent thread post: Because all his reads feel very convenient. There is nothing in his filter that gives us new information or his original thoughts. I'm leaving my vote where it is for now, honestly Promethelax is the best lynch right now because the case on him is the strongest, but I need to hear opinions on WaveOfShadow while we have the time. Who we are lynching today: Promethelax, WaveOfShadow. If they died probably not a huge loss: marvellosity, HolyFlare, Gonzaw Everyone else deserves to live another day at the least. In case you're talking about something more recent, the mafia are in the following people: Promethelax, HolyFlare, Sandroba, Marvellosity. WaveOfShadow's vote is really meh but he's probably town and I'm over-thinking it (and I'm also probably biased from my day 1 read of him). Everyone else is town, if you want an explanation then ask and say who. I don't have time to respond to all your tunnel arguments. Hey look at that, I'm still town! What changed in the time between then and when you started calling me scum? Something else that bothered me is this is one of many times Foolishness says "I'm maybe overthinking this" or something of the like. SO I'm not allowed to be wishy-washy but Foolishness is? Thems looks likes some double standards to me---especially if Foolishness ever calls me scum for being wishy washy. On January 24 2014 11:46 Foolishness wrote: Feels like this isn't the first time he's gone back and forth on something. Hey look at that! On January 24 2014 04:52 Foolishness wrote: I don't see any reason why all five of the people on sandroba aren't exempt. Yes I know what I said about marvellosity yesterday and that I would lynch him, but as I pointed out in my previous post here it doesn't seem likely for mafia to hop aboard the sandroba bandwagon. Really the most likely scenario of this happening is the mafia bus of sandroba, and given by the votes and who was voting that would probably mean that I'm mafia as well. I suggest reading my post I linked above again because based on the timestamps and who was voting and why I think it's clear that everyone on sandroba is town (as unlikely as that sounds in terms of raw numbers). Any of the people that switched had good reason to keep their vote on me. Moreso, as I pointed out, it is likely that Promethelax is town because mafia were sitting good with myself being the top lynch and second in line (Promethelax) also a town lynch. The overall point here is that the sandroba bandwagon was not initiated by mafia nor exacerbated by mafia. Mafia were sitting pretty and never expected that sort of switch to happen in the last 10 minutes. Furthermore the votes on sandroba were so close (1 minute apart for the last two) that it's very unlikely Promethelax was like, "oh I can vote for my mafia scumbuddy to gain credibility cause he already has the most votes". No, things happened too fast for it to be planned out like that. No scum would have moved to him at the start, no scum would have moved to him during the middle, and no scum would move to him at the end. Based on what happened, I suggest we look at WoS as well as VE. I like the arguments brought up against VE so far and I think a lot of the same thing can be applied to WoS as well. In particular lazily throwing his vote down on me. Here are his posts about me after I started posting in the second half of the day up to the point where he voted for me and left. What is disturbing about this is his wishy-washy behavior about me. He says he doesn't agree with my case on Promethelax, and that's fine in itself, and he also says he wants to "lynch me less". Then before voting for me says that my answers were "good enough" and that they "fit for a lack of a better term", and that it's my "early play that doesn't make sense to me". If my answers are fitting and good enough why are you voting for me? Just cause you don't agree with me on a person being mafia does not make me mafia. I was actually really surprised when he dropped his vote on me, who tells someone that they have good answers but they are still lynching them? What is also interesting is that he's entirely sheeping a read and admitting to it. Admitting to sheeping a read does not exempt you from sheeping a read. Does it seem like he has his own opinion on the matter? Does it seem like he has an idea of who to vote for? No. Look through his posts, he never really accuses anyone, and never says that he thinks person X would be a good lynch (as I said above, he never said that directly about me either). He dances around a lot of people, myself, marvellosity, Promethelax, etc. Sure, he threw his vote down and knew he wasn't going to be here before the deadline, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that he had no opinion on who should be lynched before the vote. Also his vote started a landslide, since there were already 2 votes on me, and at the time the next closest persons had 1 vote. This is a critical vote because it started the pile up on me, and when people came back and saw this they started piling on (even though those people piling on are likely town cause they all jumped ship to sandroba). Ok so here's where Foolishness actually comes out and gives reasons as to my scumminess. problem is they're terrible. yeah I sheeped, yeah I didn't have strong convictions before I left, but guess what? Them's the breaks. He then attempts to blame me for the way the votes started to go down on him? lol. When I asked Gonzaw who he wanted me to vote for I thought he was gonna say somethign like sandroba at the time considering where the conversation was at the time. I was surprised he said Foolishness, and I was ok with that since overall there were things that I both liked and didn't like about his posting at the time, but if someone I found supertown felt good about a Foolishness lynch, considering I had no strong convictions I had no problem with that. On January 24 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote: Right, and what I'm trying to say is that the timing does matter here. Sheeping a read with 10 minutes left in the day makes more sense because you're in a high pressure situation. I don't think WoS was in a high pressure situation even if he had to leave. Why not just vote for who he thinks is most scummy even if it's not Promethelax or myself? Would it seem odd to you if instead his last post was, "Foolishness lynch doesn't seem right, case on Promethelax is weak, I'm voting *insert random other player here* because he's not contributing, not active as usual, saying silly things, whatever"? No, that wouldn't be odd cause that would be a townie's mindset. I'd have to go back and reread his filter to be sure, but from what I remember it seems like he was contributing a lot to the current lynch suspects but never bringing up suspects of his own. So should I have randomly just brought up Hapa as a lynch just to be different? Wtf. I've already explained about my conviction so going over that again is useless. Foolishness wants me dead because i'm wishy-washy. Got it. On January 24 2014 05:48 Foolishness wrote: If I'm mafia what is my game plan to win this game? That'd probably mean the other member was on the sandroba train and I'm hoping that he can cruise the next 4 lynches to victory. If my mafia buddy is in the pool of Toad, Kita, VE, WoS then we're pretty much screwed since they are already under suspicion and I can only survive so long and divert so many lynches before I get punished for it. If one of you, austin, marvellosity, Promethelax, Hapa is mafia I'm pretty sure they will reveal themselves over time. Not tomorrow, maybe not even day three, but they will show it eventually. Off of long term behavior. Precisely why I don't believe all of the sandroba lynch people are immune. Deflection at its finest. On January 24 2014 12:01 Foolishness wrote: Also consider how sandroba's vote went down. He comes in and slaps his vote on Promethelax when I'm at 3 votes. Why would he do this? As I explained before, mafia were very happy with the votes at that time. Town Foolishness is in the lead with 3 votes and it's looking bad for him. Second in line is town Promethelax with now 3 votes with his. No mafia is being pressured and it's looking good for them. He didn't want to vote for me since that would look like a bandwagon vote and he would be suspicious after I flipped town. After that happens he can play up that I was right about Promethelax and push for his lynch on day 2. Furthermore, let's say that somehow I didn't get lynched and Promethelax got lynched instead. Now he can just play up that I'm mafia and that I misled everyone and plan to get me lynched day 2. Sandroba's vote at the time makes perfect sense in conjunction with the line of reasoning that mafia were very happy with the way the votes were going day 1. Which correlates to the switch on sandroba being a town move (probably 100% town). Just a little bit on Foolishness's vote analysis: I love the assumption that he's town here despite sandroba's vote making more sense if Foolishness is scum. Amazing. (Makes slightly less sense if Prome is also scum, and the bus theory is a little convoluted but not impossible). Of course he addresses this right after but not properly. On January 24 2014 12:10 Foolishness wrote: It does make sense if I'm mafia, and I said this before. But as Austin correctly pointed out who is the third mafia and why wasn't there a bigger push to save me? Sandroba's vote is a comfortable vote, if the mafia needed to save me there would have been a push to save me. They were letting the town do the dirty work for them. If votes were mostly on mafia all that day (especially in the prome/Fool/Sand theory) then there couldn't be any big push to save him at all. I don't think I've EVER seen a big push to save ANY scum, and I've already said as such in my post-lynch vote analysis. Scum are hyper-aware of looking like shit with their votes so I find scum would more often bus than try to actively save a scumbuddy. Marv says only bad scum on TL do this but I disagree. Anyway, would lynch today. Probably over Prome. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote: Austin and sandroba might as well be afk until 3 pages ago, but since coming to the thread both have had strong appearances. I'm okay with them right now because they have brought things to the thread This is the post that still bothers me the most about Foolishness when he groups austin and sandroba in his null reads. Foolishness, I know you stated several times that you were treating sandroba as wait and see, but what are the "strong appearances" and "things brought to the thread" that you are referring to with sandroba's posts. I mentioned earlier that I disagreed with his assessment, but you didn't reply. Could you please point out what you were seeing? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
If you are town and somehow believe this, then it's better to just drop the associations and "I'll find the whole scumteam" stuff and focus on players individually. So right now, you seem to find Prome, Foo and Toad suspicious. I take it now you think Toad is less scummy? | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On January 24 2014 12:10 Foolishness wrote: It does make sense if I'm mafia, and I said this before. But as Austin correctly pointed out who is the third mafia and why wasn't there a bigger push to save me? Sandroba's vote is a comfortable vote, if the mafia needed to save me there would have been a push to save me. They were letting the town do the dirty work for them. Additionally, a "mafia push" to save you can't exist if you're mafia, sandro is mafia, and the third player is either absent or has no thread presence. Earlier I brought up the "who is the third mafia" question as well, but I don't think that's solid enough reasoning to leave you out of consideration. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 25 2014 00:12 kitaman27 wrote: Additionally, a "mafia push" to save you can't exist if you're mafia, sandro is mafia, and the third player is either absent or has no thread presence. Earlier I brought up the "who is the third mafia" question as well, but I don't think that's solid enough reasoning to leave you out of consideration. I essentially just said this. Gonzaw I haven't looked at Toad extensively; I mentioned somewhere in my Foolishness post that I'm going to have to consider which two of the three are the most scummy and move on from there. I haven't looked at Toad in detail yet so he's next. Technically I have been *mostly* considering each scumspect in a vacuum but obviously that can only go so far and there are some posts throughout that consider the teams. Either way I get the feeling that you are not going to be satisfied with anything I do, so I definitely have an understand of VE's frustrations. I'm going to keep doing it and keep pushing and you can continue to push back. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
(I know there I other stuff going on, but I'd actually still be interested in your thoughts there) | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Wos pleasd understand my vocal resistance,to your and VEs theories when they hinge and all 3 scum bussing all of them and no one of them even bothering to mysslynch a townie on fricking D1 | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:12 gonzaw wrote: @Steve WoSniak: Ehmm. Seems you are trying way too hard to justify some of VE's behaviour....when it's basically injustifiable, you just say "it makes him scum" or "I'll ignore it". Actually, yeah, it is. Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town" I also wouldn't really talk too much about that "if sandro is scum he'll do good later" stuff you both posted. Yes, if both of you are scum it's weird......but like really it seems to just have no importance at all when looking at the big picture or at stuff that matters (like....the lynch and shit) It's obvious I tried to save my scumbuddy Foo by trying to get him lynched, then get my actual sandro buddy lynched, to make me and Foo look good so then I can fake having a change of heart on him and ride that town cred to victory Of course. yeah I'm about here and I got to agree with this. Especially the upper part. I read that thing about VE and it felt so incredibly forced. He's constantly bringing things up that he essentially calls impossible to decide on what to make of it, could be town-VE or mafia-VE and in the end somehow concludes that they're all towntraits in this case? I get the martyring part, sorry about that btw, and I could easily see how WoS would come to the conclusion, but other than that it really does sound forced. Brb | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
There are aspects off that team that you can MAKE work, but I don't think Sandroba works in that setup, based on his push of prome, the strategy that would have to be behind it, and his late return with the LoL game stuff. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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