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On January 24 2014 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
(Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.)
If you want to play this game, I can play it too.
Tell me, if you and VE are scum, what possible play can you make to salvage anything this game, huh?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:51 gonzaw wrote:
marv, does that bad defence tell you more about scum WoS or scum VE?
You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work)
This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded)
As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p
Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral.
Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit?
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On January 24 2014 22:53 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
I just find that there's a lot of 'objectively scummy' actions lately throughout TL mafia (martyring for example) that can't be used strictly as mafia tells anymore---the vote switching without reason is one example. I agree that sort of thing and the way it was done is probably more likely to come from scum here, but it's not impossible for him to have been frenetically moving around as town, and I find myself expressing way too much doubt given everything else in his filter to be comfortable singling him out as the best lynch of the day.
(Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.) That might be right, you don't have to instantly assume the guy is scum by that stuff... ...but you are calling him town for it. That's a big difference, that's what doesn't make sense.
I consider him town due to earlier actions and the stuff in his filter I talked about, not for the vote switching. I am weighing his entire filter and to me, the other stuff I mention outweighs the potential scumminess of the vote switching.
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On January 24 2014 22:56 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:51 gonzaw wrote:
marv, does that bad defence tell you more about scum WoS or scum VE?
You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work) This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded) As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral. Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit?
Well, to me your play this game on D1 may have warranted a "Town VE thinks marv is scum and will tunnel him to death" attitude perhaps. Obviously not strong evidence at all about anything, but it's interesting.
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On January 24 2014 22:55 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
(Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.) If you want to play this game, I can play it too. Tell me, if you and VE are scum, what possible play can you make to salvage anything this game, huh?
Well again, aside from us being absolutely retarded leaving both our votes on Foolishness if we're both scum, I could do exactly what I'm doing, except instead of hard defending VE, I either ignore him and let everyone else push while I bring up shit distracting everyone on Fool/Prome, or I jump on the bandwagon and admit I was wrong.
VE probably has to show up and actually attempt to defend himself here one way or the other, but I have no idea whether he is going to do it or not; I doubt what I say would be enough either way.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:59 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:56 marvellosity wrote:On January 24 2014 22:51 gonzaw wrote:
marv, does that bad defence tell you more about scum WoS or scum VE?
You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work) This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded) As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral. Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit? Well, to me your play this game on D1 may have warranted a "Town VE thinks marv is scum and will tunnel him to death" attitude perhaps. Obviously not strong evidence at all about anything, but it's interesting.
That works both ways though. People who have played with each other a lot have kinda different, maybe more subtle heuristics for reading each other. Stronger townies than VE (Palmar notably) have made large cases on me D1 for apathy, uninvolvement, etc. Don't really see why VE would jump all over me for what I did D1 because what I did D1 isn't actually scummy for me at all.
A relevant example is that I don't find VE's switching about massively scummy like most of the rest of you seem to. For me it's the misplaced emotional responses to what's happening in the thread that's getting my goat.
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On January 24 2014 22:56 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:51 gonzaw wrote:
marv, does that bad defence tell you more about scum WoS or scum VE?
You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work) This is absolutely the money question (to the bolded) As an aside to your 2nd paragraph, VE was pretty muted towards me in LXIV where we were both town. I think he was in a huff that I was talking to rayn so much, although I'm not entirely sure that was the actual reason, but it's what he told me :p Town-VE and Mafia-VE buddy with marv. Town-VE attacks marv if he thinks marv is mafia, and Scum-VE won't attack marv because marv can take him apart. So that shit is kinda neutral. Going back to your first question, I'm gonna ask something to Wave instead: do you think the game-state + how other players have been talking to VE warranted a ragequit?
Debatable.
I can understand the frustration (given I just experienced just a little bit of gonzaw's high-and-mightiness) but VE and I may simply react differently to tunnely pressure. Marv you remember how angry I got at the thread for nearly lynching me in...## I think it was? I fought like hell against that lynch but I was experiencing stomach ulcers at the time I was so pissed off. Not everyone can endure tunneling like that, especially if they feel railing against it is a futile effort (from a town OR scum perspective). If anything I would imagine being town and experiencing it is MORE frustrating because you KNOW everyone is wrong and there's not a whole lot to do about it.
In conclusion does it warrant the ragequit? Tough to say. From my perspective? No, not really, but is it something VE would do? Marv if you are a VE expert, can you tll me if it is something VE would do as either alignment?
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WoS, my point is that if both you and VE are scum, you already "lost" (in a way), so you can basically do any weird strategy you want (like "obviously" hard defending your buddy for WIFOM) and it doesn't matter.
Don't see what's wrong with both of you voting Foo on D1, it's not "suicide" at all, you both voted a scummy town while your other buddy FoSed someone else.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial.
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It seems I may not get to defenses of myself if I'm engaged in discussion with you guys so marv, can i ask you (if you don't mind me changing tracks super quick---we can change back after):
Do you think all of the 'WoS is wishy-washy' cases hold water?
Because I can tell you right now that shit pisses me off (maybe less so because the players who talk about it---Fool/Hapa I believe don't know me that well). My D1 is usually pretty bad. I almost NEVER have strong scumreads on D1 and I'm not going to fake confidence about them if they don't exist. If I'm wishy washy about something in thread it's because I'm not afraid to show the rest of the town my thought processes on a matter, which I would think is fairly obvious that that is what I am attempting to do.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:05 marvellosity wrote:
yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial.
I thought the interaction with Prom at the very start of the game was the over the top and artificial part.
He overreacted to a couple of posts within the first hour of the game that mostly seemed like feeler posts and made Prom his lynch candidate. Then when it came time to vote, he dropped it with the "foolishness is manipulating me" stuff. That's probably the most important part to me.
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On January 24 2014 23:05 marvellosity wrote:
yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial.
And see that's where we disagree. I find stuff like that is rarely artificial. I'm not even sure I can think of a faked ragequit or anything like that in recent games (though you know better than me meta-wise, obviously, so maybe an example exists?)
Gonzaw, from my perspective, town brings themselves closer to losing if I let you go through with lynching the both of us. Hell even if I'm wrong about VE, you bring yourselves closer to losing if you lynch me. Of course I'm going to fight this, I don't know what you expect from me. Lay down and die so you do nothing productive for the next 2 days and then realize you were wrong?
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If you are town, I expect you not to make bad defenses of scum VE.
If VE is somehow town, I'd expect you to make a better defense of him, or counteract that by finding the hidden 2 scum we are apparently completely missing.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
It seems I may not get to defenses of myself if I'm engaged in discussion with you guys so marv, can i ask you (if you don't mind me changing tracks super quick---we can change back after):
Do you think all of the 'WoS is wishy-washy' cases hold water?
Because I can tell you right now that shit pisses me off (maybe less so because the players who talk about it---Fool/Hapa I believe don't know me that well). My D1 is usually pretty bad. I almost NEVER have strong scumreads on D1 and I'm not going to fake confidence about them if they don't exist. If I'm wishy washy about something in thread it's because I'm not afraid to show the rest of the town my thought processes on a matter, which I would think is fairly obvious that that is what I am attempting to do.
I thought your stream of consciousness on day 1 looked quite fine to me.
I don't know about these cases of yours now. It's not really the wishy washy... they seem to be zooming in or exaggerating on weird things and disregarding (or looking at weirdly, i.e. sand/Prome) other stuff. It suggests a weird perspective on the game, which could either be coz you're mafia, or you're weird... (pass right now)
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
My D1 is usually pretty bad. I almost NEVER have strong scumreads on D1 and I'm not going to fake confidence about them if they don't exist. If I'm wishy washy about something in thread it's because I'm not afraid to show the rest of the town my thought processes on a matter, which I would think is fairly obvious that that is what I am attempting to do.
I think in the end you have to push yourself to pick a read even if you're not 100%. I wasn't rock solid on Prom and I had sandro in my top 3 scum list, but I still stuck with my lynch because that was the player I had the best feeling about at the time. It may get me in trouble in the long run, but sitting back and allowing others to determine the fate of the lynch doesn't do you any good when 3/10 of them have an anti-town agenda and the other 7/10 likely are just as puzzled as you.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 24 2014 23:10 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:05 marvellosity wrote:
yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial. And see that's where we disagree. I find stuff like that is rarely artificial. I'm not even sure I can think of a faked ragequit or anything like that in recent games (though you know better than me meta-wise, obviously, so maybe an example exists?)Gonzaw, from my perspective, town brings themselves closer to losing if I let you go through with lynching the both of us. Hell even if I'm wrong about VE, you bring yourselves closer to losing if you lynch me. Of course I'm going to fight this, I don't know what you expect from me. Lay down and die so you do nothing productive for the next 2 days and then realize you were wrong?
If I really spent a lot of time, I could go find a whole bunch of games where VE "ragequits" as mafia. But you'll just have to take my word for it, because... effort for no reason.
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On January 24 2014 23:12 gonzaw wrote:
If you are town, I expect you not to make bad defenses of scum VE.
If VE is somehow town, I'd expect you to make a better defense of him, or counteract that by finding the hidden 2 scum we are apparently completely missing.
Yeah gonzaw, things don't work that way. You can be as salty as you want that I haven't given you what you want in the way that you expect it, but you sure as hell can't say I haven't tried. From my perspective I am doing exactly what you expect.
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On January 24 2014 23:12 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
My D1 is usually pretty bad. I almost NEVER have strong scumreads on D1 and I'm not going to fake confidence about them if they don't exist. If I'm wishy washy about something in thread it's because I'm not afraid to show the rest of the town my thought processes on a matter, which I would think is fairly obvious that that is what I am attempting to do. I think in the end you have to push yourself to pick a read even if you're not 100%. I wasn't rock solid on Prom and I had sandro in my top 3 scum list, but I still stuck with my lynch because that was the player I had the best feeling about at the time. It may get me in trouble in the long run, but sitting back and allowing others to determine the fate of the lynch doesn't do you any good when 3/10 of them have an anti-town agenda and the other 7/10 likely are just as puzzled as you.
I don't do things like that kita. Never have.
Maybe if I was around for the lynch I would have jumped on sandroba in a heartbeat from the terrible Prome post, but I wasn't and I can't expect you guys to take my word on that---before that point I did not have anything i was confident enough to push in the thread.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Probably kita can remember one or two, he seems to know everything. There's one where he posted this massive picture of someone being shot or something like that.
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On January 24 2014 23:13 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:10 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 24 2014 23:05 marvellosity wrote:
yeah VE ragequits. As either alignment. It's whether I can see it as an emotional response I understand. At the moment it seems over the top and artificial. And see that's where we disagree. I find stuff like that is rarely artificial. I'm not even sure I can think of a faked ragequit or anything like that in recent games (though you know better than me meta-wise, obviously, so maybe an example exists?)Gonzaw, from my perspective, town brings themselves closer to losing if I let you go through with lynching the both of us. Hell even if I'm wrong about VE, you bring yourselves closer to losing if you lynch me. Of course I'm going to fight this, I don't know what you expect from me. Lay down and die so you do nothing productive for the next 2 days and then realize you were wrong? If I really spent a lot of time, I could go find a whole bunch of games where VE "ragequits" as mafia. But you'll just have to take my word for it, because... effort for no reason.
No, that's fine obviously. What you need to understand is that I believe that could have come from town, and just because we may disagree on that doesn't make me scum. Nor does my different perspective (and methodology) of providing reads make me scum either. I believe if you really consider (and normally I wouldn't ask anyone else to do this because I don't have much faith in meta, but I do you are particularly good at it) the way I play in my past games, you should be able to find reconciliation with the way I've played here.
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