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Post 3
(Oh I can;'t edit but I wanted to mention in there something about the act of martyring itself---an extremely townie trait considering recent trends.) Moving on to Prome:
On January 21 2014 11:41 Promethelax wrote:
I have but you guys had to go and produce actual content while I was bitching about having no content. Stellar start to the game, eh?
In all honesty everyone is suspicious given how little content came about in the time when I couldn't post (couldn't = had to eat sushi with the girlfriend) the fact that the vettiest vets in vetland couldn't figure out how to start a game of mafia gives me the willys.
Again, the sort of stuff that's been rehashed over and over but I bring up some of it anyway. VE originally suspected Prome because of his townread of me and not of him---difference between VE and I was that I believed that kind of thing possible whereas VE did not. VE also (correctly in my opinion) brings up the example of mafia Prome in LX with his 'conversation starter' business (which VE didn't even attempt to debunk). Maybe it's not the fact that Prome is putting in effort to create a conversation starter here, but why does he feel the need to brag about it, and shit on the rest of town in the process? 'LOOK AT HOW TOWN I AM, STARTING STUFF WHERE THE REST OF THE VETS COULDN'T!' Unnecessary.
The talk about policy early on I originally had issues with but ultimately I let it go as it doesn't appear to be particularly alignment indicative.
Before disappearing for a day, he calls kita scummy and says he doesn't like Foolishness for obvious reasons.
Prome then returns triumphantly, defends himself from VE and votes kita. I then join him (which was called a sheep vote by someone + Show Spoiler +who shall remain nameless right now but oh boy am I gonna get to him
VE seemed to think these reads were forced but I didn't then nor do I now think so. He came back, provided reads as he was catching up, and I found them useful.
On January 23 2014 00:20 Promethelax wrote:20-22 Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 03:33 austinmcc wrote:On January 22 2014 03:08 VisceraEyes wrote:
I want more austin. Waiter, can I get some more austinmcc plz? *dancing queen blares through the stadium* GOOD LORD, THAT'S HIS MUSIC (how could I not find a clip of this or something similar on youtube?) I'll give you two thoughts and then you can ask me whatever. (1) I think your specific point against prom is the...most specific point against anyone. Lotta "doesn't quite feel right" or "is asking vapid questions", but I wholeheartedly agree that these two posts On January 21 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 21 2014 10:46 kitaman27 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum. I was kinda hoping to role mafia with the all vanilla setup. They probably have the advantage regardless of who is playing. Wanna vote sandroba with me? He may or may not be scummy. lol I'm really hoping you're not scum kita. Nah no reason to vote sandroba yet. Not only is there basically nothing to vote him for, I've seen what he's capable of as the game progresses (from PYP) and if he is town and plays this game anything like that, he'll start slow and then start bringing the pain to scum. On January 21 2014 11:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
As far as I can tell, he doesn't respond to pressure on himself this early so it wouldn't matter.
I only offered that as an aside anyway, my main reason for not wanting to vote him is because I literally don't see one.
Hapa, do you see yourself getting shot N1 in this game? do not lead me to this justification from prom On January 21 2014 11:52 Promethelax wrote:
WoS had a question that feels curious, in my experience curious people are more often town than scum. VE felt fluffy. WoS felt curious.
Reasonable? No.
True? Yes.
Often accurate? Yes. WoS's "question" doesn't concern sandroba, or sandroba play, and is a throwaway silly question anyway. I currently have the score 1-0 VE on the issue of whether Promethelax justified his treating your posts and WoS's posts on Sandroba differently. (2) I think all this Foolishness stuff is ... foolishness. He's typed 4.3 words. A big discussion of his alignment based on 4.3 words feels very filler-y, and like nobody can build any particularly strong read on the guy or his play this game. So I don't care about foolishness for now. Bro bro, bro. BRO! WoS asked Hapa a question in a 'tone' that seemed curious to me. Which didn't do. That made VE more worth pressuring than Wave. It isn't a big point. It doesn't say a lot but I happen to believe that the question WoS posed Hapa is more likely to come from a town WoS than a scum one. So I went after VE. Along with that attacking VE was more likely to generate content in the thread which was my real goal since WoS is more likely to have a reasonable conversation with me while VE is more likely to do silly things and go crazy. Crazy VE says crazy things. Those things can cause thread interaction to happen which is good. Two reasons to accuse VE over WoS 1. VE seemed slightly more suspicious because WoS said one thing I liked while VE said 0 things I liked. and 2. VE is more likely to respond with OMGUSes and strange ideas which would, I hoped, jumpstart the thread. Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 05:00 austinmcc wrote:On January 22 2014 04:55 sandroba wrote:On January 22 2014 04:47 austinmcc wrote:On January 22 2014 04:44 sandroba wrote:
I actually don't have a problem with prom/wos interaction in particular, that first post and fishing for hapa's comment on it is what fells weird and scripted to me. I'd like to hear from hapa if he thinks it felt fake too. So you think WoS shows some sort of curiousity or curious question, especially concerning you, around that time? Beyond dat, any gold mined from entrance posts? He doesn't care about me at that time, as there is no reason to. The points he raises about prom's post later pretty much are the same thoughts I had when I read it, so I don't think he merits my attention so far. Nothing besides prom and maaaybe gonzaw. Okeedoke. Maybe we're working in two directions here. I'm mostly poking at the VE/Prome interaction, not a WoS/Prome interaction. VE asks Prome why Prome kinda on VE's case about saying you're not gonna respond to pressure, bla bla, whatever, but is NOT on WoS's case when WoS says you're not gonna respond to pressure, bla bla, whatever. Prome says On January 21 2014 11:52 Promethelax wrote:
WoS had a question that feels curious, in my experience curious people are more often town than scum. VE felt fluffy. WoS felt curious.
Reasonable? No.
True? Yes.
Often accurate? Yes. If you don't think WoS cares about you, and I pretty much agree that he's not racking his brain for magical Sandroba thoughts, then you think Promethelax is manufacturing his distinction, given that WoS isn't actually curious about you or anything? Or you simply don't care about this Prome/VE interaction at all, or don't care about Prome's reasons, or any other "I am Sandroba and I don't really put much stock into this VE/Prome stuff" I'm not looking at WoS with this, or WoS/Prome, so much as I'm trying to zero in on the singular post by Prome where he says WoS asks this curious question which I cannot find. because I was pressuring VE who felt wrong and not WoS who did not feel wrong. I really don't understand what it is that I need to explain more. WoS had the same thoughts as VE but had a thing that made me think he was WoS there was nothing to suggest that it was VE and not VE so I pressured VE and not WoS. /logic okay, I'm done responding to this point because I think I've explained it enough for you to get. If you have another reason to accuse me I'm happy to hear it but this one is played out either you buy my explanation or you don't. I can't explain it more because I've done it two or three ways already and, well, that is all I've got. If you don't believe me lynch me and if you do believe me stop trying to lynch me over this. Find something else worth lynching me for or don't. Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 06:00 Hapahauli wrote:Realistically though, what is your opinion of Gonzaw's style? I haven't played with him before and I'm not in right now so can't check up on it.
Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? This is such a strange question. 1) Why are you talking about him spending so much time on foolishness, when you haven't addressed any of his arguments? Especially... you know... the largest post in the thread currently? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=18#3592) What is relevant about gonzaw's style so far? He's posted the most content in the thread and has done the most scumhunting of anyone. I don't know how you could raise any questions about his style given what he's posted. 3) Your attitude on Foolishness makes no goddamn sense. In this post, you're deflecting attention from him and puzzled on how gonzaw could spend time on him. Why is he spending so much time on foolishness? ...yet in your posts addressed to me, you repeatedly call foolishness sketchy, scummy, and are generally suspicious of him and his sparse posting. What gives? I was writing up a thing but I'ma just +1 this post instead. Right now, no order within the lists:
Hapa
Marv
WoS
GonzawVE Sandroba Austin Kita
Holy
Fool
Looking at the reads section of this post, I'm kinda wondering now what has made Prome completely drop his townread of me and reverse it.
All I found upon looking was this:
On January 23 2014 14:47 Promethelax wrote:
But he is thinking like town.
Lynch VE I think. No interest in lunch.
Also: maybe WoS? He thinks I could be s um with what in my mind was hammer vote.
I think you'll agree that me+fool =/= scum pair so if I was scum I could have left my vote on fool and lynchedvhim overs and.
So because I refuse to immediately consider a bunch of people (who frankly don't deserve it) confirmed town I'm instantly scum? Odd. He doesn't even bring up my posting re: sandroba which I would argue is more incriminating. He focuses mostly on VE for the rest of his filter but I'm pretty shocked that #2 on his scumlist gets no consideration whatsoever.
Anyway backing up:
On January 23 2014 07:22 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 06:03 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 05:53 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 23 2014 05:51 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 05:47 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 22 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote:On January 22 2014 07:45 Hapahauli wrote:On January 22 2014 07:37 marvellosity wrote:
ok he can stay for now
##unvote Would this suggest that you agree with Fool's reads, or do you just think his post is a town-tell? Do you think he's capable of faking those kinds of posts as scum? I think his post looks reasonable townie and there's a lot of effort. I'm not sure how much i agree with his reads atm kita lower, prome higher, marv much much higher, WoS ??, gonzaw higher But his reasoning feels townie - putting me where I am because I'm forgettable, while ego crushing I like it as an angle to take, it's non-routine i think he's capable of these posts as mafia, especially after the champions game, and the way he made a list at the end was actually eerily similar to how he made lists at the end of those posts :p but overall the meat of it made sense. and he's trying Yeah...I'm in agreement with a lot of marv stuff from his filter, and the timing at which he posted stuff. One thing that stuck out is the above. I'm wondering why marv gave me a ??? at that point considering it seems likely he thought I was town before that from his attitude towards me. Meh..maybe not. And then this comes after my return On January 23 2014 02:49 marvellosity wrote:On January 23 2014 02:43 kitaman27 wrote:On January 22 2014 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On January 22 2014 22:49 kitaman27 wrote:
I'd much rather hear who marv is considering voting, rather than defending a player he thinks is town.
Wave looks better, for obvious reasons Could you expand on this, even if it's brief? I didn't pick up on the obvious reason. Mine read was more based on the lack of anything wrong, rather than an abundance of anything he has done that is helpful. Also, could you justify your Holyflare vote for me with specifics? You mention that you thought gonzaw's points were good. Is that what you're going by or is the vote mostly due to his absence from the thread? I currently don't have a strong preference between sandroba and Holyflare and it seems like sandroba hasn't been inspired to rejoin the thread. I'll vote with you for the time being. ##Unvote
##Vote Holyflare Wave is waffling earnestly at length as I'd expect him to. Although he's only got one scumgame, I'd very much expect him to be more direct than he has been if mafia. I've been suspicious of him in two reasonably recent games for being slow and waffly (##, LXIV) and now it just seems it's how he opens day 1 as town. So maybe not obvious after all. I just think his thought process is transparent. Like he's posted a lot of his thought process, where's his agenda? Mainly with Holy that he seems angrier than was justified. But most of all it's the constant niggling at Hapa, especially with his last post(s) when Hapa was by a large margin the towniest guy in the thread. It's just not natural at all. Tbh I don't make a massive amount of his absence, I believe he'd be here posting as either alignment, so not that alignment indicative. I guess I expect marv to know...I dunno...more about me? Maybe why I was shocked he found me scummy in those games because I don't believe i've shifted my meta all that much in between games, and town-marv always seems to find me town eventually for all the right reasons. Yeah....would not lynch, but marv you left me high and dry---our palaver did not quench my thirst for you this game. (And it's basically become tradition at this point) I'm not upset with any of Marv's individual posts, but his overall play so far. There's a lot of 'overall play' I'm disappointed with atm, Prome included to some degree. Does it make those people scum? No, but Marvellosity is known for getting things done on day 1. I keep wanting to think you are town but you come up with bullshit like this that isn't even remotely true. I cannot believe that town foolishness actually believes these things as they are not remotely true. ##unvote
##vote: foolishnessI simply cannot connect the idea of foolishness being a good town player and him being town while saying things so blatantly false about so many players in this game.
This sounds familiar.
That's right, it's the exact same rationale he uses against VE later on in the day! Now while this doesn't indicate scum, I'm not sure of the viability of applying the same heuristic to multiple people like this---essentially every time somebody doesn't perform to your liking, you try to call them scum? I maybe should give it a little more credence because this heuristic is entirely meta-based and I know Prome is good at meta, but where is the proof? For us laypeople, how do I know that Foolishness is better than this? This kind of thing falls into 'stuff that doesn't pop out' territory. I can throw this back at him; I've seen Prome play, and I know he is capable of blasting people away with insane cases. He hasn't done it this game. Scum? (See how easy that was?)
On January 23 2014 07:35 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 07:26 marvellosity wrote:
So Fool and sand are both on Prome
i don't like that lynch very much.
In the part of Prome's filter where he attacked Fool and then voted kita which didn't make very much sense to me given he was apparently suspicious of Fool earlier, but now he's back voting Fool which makes more sense. Kinda confusing actually It's because I'm kinda confused. It is what sand is pulling out in my filter. In pyp I had to do something to move town in the right direction (and had 140 pages of thread to work with) and things popped out to me. I had sheep to lead and scum to find. Here no one has made me really hard for their lynch. Although sand bringing in meta from my strongest ever town game is a little funny, I wish I was that good all the time.
Here he is 100% right and honestly this would probably be one of the main reasons I would have found Sandroba scummy at the time: that case he made was terrible. Would a scum Prome be the one to drop the perceived final vote hammer at lynch time, but also be the one that began to set that lynch in motion? Kinda stretching it.
Hmm. Actually...
On January 23 2014 07:26 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 07:23 sandroba wrote:
What more do I need to say? The man is scum. I could go on and talk about other people that might be scum, but I'd rather we save it for after we lynched the scum that's certain. His filters are markedly different from the two games, yes. But that's just a single game and he replaced into PYP LOL but didn't here. I feel the exact same way about the difference, but I discount that as solid evidence more than you seem to. You basically just chopped out a single thing that Prome has done this game, pasted it next to a thing from one past game, went NINETY FIVE PERCENT SCUM. All while, at least to me, you two are the leading candidates for lynch. Talking about someone else who might be scum, or talking about why Prome is scum beyond his kita vote + comparison to a game he replaced into, might go a ways towards making people more convinced on Prome or less convinced on you.
Austin brings it up. Wayy fewer townpoints for Prome, sorry dood.
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On January 24 2014 14:25 austinmcc wrote:
WoS, if you're still up, can I ask you to undertake a funky made-up task for me? Pretty please?
If your answer is yes and you're up and active, when you finish going through whatever you want to go through, I'd like for you to play along with this scenario. I am a cop. I have a red check on gonzaw. I tell you this. You smack your head and go, "Aha! It all makes sense now. I should have known Gonzaw was mafia, because __________." If you so choose, you can keep going and add, "Also, now that I know the mafia team was sandroba/gonzaw/?, the third member is almost certainly _______."
EVERYONE ELSE I'M NOT A COP. I DON'T HAVE A RED CHECK.
Just curious. If it were to turn out that Gonzaw is mafia, when you look at his filter, what would give you that, "man, I should have seen this thing because it points towards mafia Gonzaw" feeling?
You know how I feel about your funky made-up-tasks, but at least this one doesn't involve you being a female hot-dog vendor and actually appears to be relevant to the game somehow, so let me finish Prome then I'll do it.
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On January 24 2014 14:25 austinmcc wrote:
WoS, if you're still up, can I ask you to undertake a funky made-up task for me? Pretty please?
If your answer is yes and you're up and active, when you finish going through whatever you want to go through, I'd like for you to play along with this scenario. I am a cop. I have a red check on gonzaw. I tell you this. You smack your head and go, "Aha! It all makes sense now. I should have known Gonzaw was mafia, because __________." If you so choose, you can keep going and add, "Also, now that I know the mafia team was sandroba/gonzaw/?, the third member is almost certainly _______."
EVERYONE ELSE I'M NOT A COP. I DON'T HAVE A RED CHECK.
Just curious. If it were to turn out that Gonzaw is mafia, when you look at his filter, what would give you that, "man, I should have seen this thing because it points towards mafia Gonzaw" feeling?
Actually let me give a preliminary answer to that right now: I would say Gonzaw got framed.
There is no way in hell I can believe that the way he has been playing currently points to a scum gonzaw---that's one conspiracy-theory-rabbit-hole I just won't fit my fat ass into.
I'll read his filter *shudder* once I finish what I'm doing just to be absolutely certain but I don't see my answer changing.
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Jesus I fell asleep typing this up and almost lost it to fucking auto-logout.
Post 4
I do so love talking to myself. This will be the last one until tomorrow--- I'm exhausted and I think I will have given people enough to consider/talk about in the few hours I am not here without flooding the thread TOO much.
On January 23 2014 08:06 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 08:04 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 08:02 Promethelax wrote:
Fucking lurker lynch. I was hoping I wouldn't have to lurker lynch. On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote:
Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers.
So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. Uh oh Yes you see I had a policy I was hoping not to enact because we are all better than this. You see? But we had to lurker lynch, it ended up being right but I'm pissed at sandroba about it. I wanted a high quality game with crazy good scum and town play. Scum (or anyone else) getting lurker lynched d1 is disappointing to me.
So, on one hand Prome DOES kinda look bad for this, but it's such a minor point that, even were he contradictory wouldn't be something to nail him to the wall for. Foolishness goes for it anyway...it's little things like this that may have me looking at Foolishness as my D2 lynch, but I'll get to that eventually.
On January 23 2014 14:51 Promethelax wrote:
Fuck. English hard.
VE isn't interested in the lynch, let it go with even votes, just doesn't seem right. Which is why he might be scum.
WoS keeps pressuring me after a lynch that should look really good for me. He isn't terrible (though he isn't top rung in this game in particular) and so he should know that hammer voting scum d1 usually indicates town. And yeah, I didn't actually cast the deciding vote but I thought I did.
Already brought it up but yeah, it's this again. "So and so isn't bad but look at what they do here, must be scum!" Here's Prome's reason to apparently drop me to #2 lynch and once again, the SAME REASON AS ALL OF HIS OTHER SCUMSPECTS. Now we have an issue on our hands.
On January 23 2014 15:22 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 07:15 sandroba wrote:Sup. I'm 95% convinced prom is scum. I could go on and explain my absence etc, but I won't. Let's talk about important things instead. Getting past the openning post that has already been discussed, his come back post with the kita vote does not make sense for town prom: On January 23 2014 00:00 Promethelax wrote:On January 22 2014 01:50 kitaman27 wrote:
How much time did you spend looking into Foolishness's history gonzaw? Additionally, what is the point of posting a guide on how to read Foolishness? If you point out his scum qualities before he has any actual posts, do you expect him to read your guide and then get caught anyways? Do you think this was an efficient use of your town as a player who hasn't even read the thread?
When I think of a player that gets off to a trolly start as town, Foolishness is one of the first people to come to mind so I disagree with your assessment based on the posts that you have cherry picked.
I'm still content with my vote on him however based on activity. This kind of post is why I feel all hinky about you Kita. Rest of the thread: this post adds nothing to the discussion, doesn't do anything but castigate Gonzaw (a player who, based on length of post alone looks townie) and tries to throw doubt everywhere. It reminds me of a Kita scum game with WBG where the two of them got in the thread every time a lylch they didn't like was discussed to talk shit about the lynch by attacking the guy who was leading said lynch. Can anyone remember said game? Either way, that is with or without that meta, this rings of scum to me enough that I am comfortable laying down a ##Vote:Kitaman This is clearly a total misconception of what kita is trying to acomplish in his post which was question gonzaw in his motives when making an useless post about foolishness early meta and move the thread off an issue he deemed unimportant at the time. Not only that, the reason he he votes for him is because it "reminds him of a game in which he did something simillar" and was scum. N ot only this already smells of total bullshit, this already makes sense from the backward logic scum normally has of first deciding who to vote for and later trying to justify it, twisting it to suit their needs. If you are not convinced take a look at how prom presents his vote in the recent pyp game as town: On December 04 2013 17:36 Promethelax wrote:JohnnylawNot even a name I recognize. Given that he doesn't even have a mafia database entry I'll assume he is new.. As always anyone who knows anything about the individual who can add anything metawise would be greatly appreciated. According to an old Gonzaw heuristic I'd have to call JL scum, he stopped posting while getting boozed up. You can't trust a dude who stops posting while his guard is down. Based on his early posts I'll assume Johnnylaw is a LoL convert brought over by Wave. Dude knows his LoL (and I don't, so a lot of his early posts are not in a language I speak). DINGDINGDING we have a winner folks On December 01 2013 11:18 JonnyLaw wrote:On December 01 2013 10:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
but jcarl is scum so... i dont't give a fuck This makes no sense. There's not a lot of pressure on you because you're flipping it on everyone else. Just fucking calm down, make your arguments and wait while we gain more information as people post, vote and draft. I get that you're making people talk and that will help us down the line but for now we have little information and ten pages of personal attacks and shit posting is clogging up the whole fucking thread.
Get your shit together or I'm saying you are scum or at the least, not helping the town actively.The series of personal attacks and shit posting for ten pages gave me nothing yet. I'll post again after I see what scum ban. Holy double donkey dicks. Would lynch off of this post. 1. threat 2. it was a weak threat 3 that last sentence. You know what ten pages of shitposting gives a townie? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with bum lead. 4. the whole thing is a soft grab for town points, its a 'ooh but bad thread atmosphere is bad' post with out doing anything to fix what it complains about. Scum love to agree with something being anti town while doing nothing to prevent it. So far this post is the scummiest thing I've read in this thread. Would lynch. This post is pretty awful to (its directed at bum) On December 01 2013 13:28 JonnyLaw wrote:Warwick's not a strong first pick. + Show Spoiler +At night, you may submit the name and champion name of a player This means we need to know which champion the player has successfully picked. Why pick trynd at all? Just so you know who has tryndamere? There's not a chance in hell I'm picking that champion. I plan to contribute to winning this game. Dealing damage to people above/below me does not help us win the game. I don't even understand. Actually, I must say fuck your list. I disagree strongly with most of the conclusions. I think you're scum as is. "I don't understand, therefore you are scum" = scummy "I don't understand, I would like to understand" = townie which is the above? Oh yes, the former. Johnnylaw is not making new points of his own, is arguing for and against nothings and keeps grabbing at town points while attacking town favoured plans. Note that he argues with the usefulness of the plan but does not provide a better plan, he is tearing down not bringing up. Corollary to the Chezinu rule, the kushmasta rule. On December 03 2013 06:25 JonnyLaw wrote:
Okay, I was out all day yesterday. Two hours later I've finally caught up in the thread.
gtrs - I dont like how his filter reads but he hasn't really given us much to lynch him either. I know he's capable of playing better as town so either he's busy, lazy or scum. None of these qualities help us win the game.
Soniv - fine for now. Looks to be making an effort to push the game towards a goal.
kushmasta - Like really? This guy comes into the thread and starts calling people scum in one liners and generally shitting the place up. He replaced OWB who completely shut down and hated playing scum in NMM L. The random tooscummytobescum post irritates me as well.
The rest have longer filters and I need to evaluate them. Just reading through the last 20 pages hasn't left me with other strong feelings yet.
I'll be checking filters and around for a while. twenty pages of reading twenty four hours after his last thread appearance and the only kinda scummy thing he picks up on is that kush is a weird ass dude. I could have told you that for free. He also says that gtsrs is playing the game. Which is not a conclusion. Everyone can see that gt is busy/lazy/scum JL doesn't provide any insight, he says he didn't like something and follows it with nothing until VE brings it up again at which time JL +1s like a champ. He does these quick summaries of people which I can't stand, many of you know my stance on list posts without content and JL has many posts which are just one continuous contentless list. A bit of an excuse since Sandro asked him to look at those particular filters but in reality he said nothing about the four players. Conclusion rating 4.5 my qualms with a JL lynch. The kid may be so new he doesn't see what he is doing and is unsure of how to contribute in a large game, lord knows its hard. He could be throwing around dog crap posts because he simply doesn't know how to make better posts, he seems relativly involved in the thread and has intereacted with many players by name and by idea. For now he looks like my first pressure for day two but I am not yet confidant I will want to lynch him. If I had to guess most likely scum out of the players I have filtered so far I'd take JL no questions asked. You could go on and compare both filters from these games and notice how different his tone and assertiviness are a lot different this game in a mafia oriented way. In this game his play is totally reactive and comes from a defensive position, where in the game he was town, even replacing in a slot that had a fair bit of suspicion on it he promoted discussion and basically took over the game. The man is scum. ##vote: promthelax To the bolder: hohoho. Scum calling out their own tactics. Sand defends fool, Kita. Attacks prom, gonzaw Buddies WoS
Between me/fool I'm trying to think of who I'd see as an easier target from a scum perspective if both were town. I think I'm harder to lynch thn fool since I have more thread or essence and a better excuse to be bad while fool has poor thread presence and less excuse to be bad. Thing is I'm pretty sure sand is one of those player who has a vet hard on and would know fool way better. Than he knows me (though in three games with him I've voted him d1 twice when he was scum and bossed the fuck out of pyp once). Still think he'd respect fool more than me so I'm not sure his choice to attack me over fool is deeply enlightening.
You know, the bolded is the same thing I've been considering with me/VE. But I find issue here with the fact that he thinks that scum sandroba actually would think to take on one of town Foolishness/Prome and push them all the way to a lynch. I believe this was just a bandaid post by sandroba trying to get SOMETHING out there before the end of the day but it's what did him in precisely because it was it so weak/forced/bad. He comes to a similar conclusion as I come to in the end (the post is useless to try and gain info from) but I don't see the fact that sandroba chose to 'attack' him with such a shoddy case as proof of Prome's towniness.
Prome's long case on VE (not gonna copy it here)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=51#1002
Some of it is fairly decent---he;s right in that VE around the lynch looked crappy and he didn't do a whole lot in the day, but then he is MASSIVLEY hypocritical with the stuff that compares the two of us:
Prome:
Again people have already commented on VE's early defense of Sandroba but it is worth bringing up again now that Sand has flipped. This preemptive defense of Sand's play seems a little too aware; while Sand could do this as both alignments if I were scum with him this game I'd be worried that he would play his usual shitty scum meta (as he ended up doing) and would be hyper aware of people talking about it.
Bringing up the defense of Sandroba to call VE scum but not me. I stated earlier how this can actually be reconciled (in my VE post) yet Prome doesn't bring me up AT ALL. AND STILL THINKS IM SCUM.
Prome:
So this post happened. VE thinks I am biased and that makes me more likely to be scum. And yet, for no reason, I am town to him. Hapa said he thought this was indicative of a townie who was bothered at being accused for something that didn't make him scum but I see it as just as likely to come from a scum mad at a townie calling him scum for a reason that he feels could be equally applied to a town player.
The above having been stated I don't think WoS and VE can be scum together because if I was right to call VE scum for something that WoS did too and both were scum it would be a valid read on both of them. If VE flips scum I'd say WoS is not scum.
So while I agree with the conclusion again, the way he got about getting there is so massively wrong I don't even know what to say. There are MULTIPLE things that both VE and I do throughout this game that can be compared, yet Prome doesn't even bother talking about them, he simply cherry-picks what he wants to refer to here and just lazily makes reference to me, setting himself up for what could be a double mislynch if VE flips town. Like...maybe he can come back and explain this himself because I actually don't understand the ligic behind point he is trying to make here AT ALL.
At this point despite some decent parts of his cases, this VE case is not the polished triumphant hammer I would expect from Prome (at risk of sounding hypocritical, this is NOT a sticking point for me---I am generally not great at meta). It reeks of an easy case on an easy target which IS scummy.
On January 24 2014 06:06 Promethelax wrote:
Kita: do scum slips exist?
You know who else nitpicks at obviously stupid things? Foolishness.
Then comes the prodding of VE, and while I like the attempts to engage him (in that I don't think he expected VE to rage out necessarily) I don't think is necessarily indicative because even as scum it's very easy to pursue the attack on a downtrodden townie---the worst case scenario for scum there is he may find some of his points weakened, the best case is probably what VE did to himself.
Conclusion:
Prome is scummy.
There are things that I liked about his filter: the engaging of the thread, the stream-of consciousness catch-up, but overall there are way too many glaring inconsistencies, and faulty periods of play that can't be explained away simply. I've already explained why in my opinion Prome does not deserve a free pass based on his position in the sandroba lynch.
Eventually to come: proper defenses to stuff like Foolishness/Toad.
More filter diving (Foolishness/Toad/marv warrant a look in that order)
Anything else that may be necessary.
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@Steve WoSniak: Ehmm. Seems you are trying way too hard to justify some of VE's behaviour....when it's basically injustifiable, you just say "it makes him scum" or "I'll ignore it".
I think the absolute worst thing VE has got going for him in his filter is his 'round-the-lynch' shenangians, Vote-swapping all over the place with zero justification. In my opinion however, that is the ONLY scummy thing he has going for him at this point in his filter. It's not small, but it is enough to ignore everything I've posted about thus far?
Actually, yeah, it is.
Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town"
I also wouldn't really talk too much about that "if sandro is scum he'll do good later" stuff you both posted. Yes, if both of you are scum it's weird......but like really it seems to just have no importance at all when looking at the big picture or at stuff that matters (like....the lynch and shit)
On January 24 2014 14:31 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 14:25 austinmcc wrote:
WoS, if you're still up, can I ask you to undertake a funky made-up task for me? Pretty please?
If your answer is yes and you're up and active, when you finish going through whatever you want to go through, I'd like for you to play along with this scenario. I am a cop. I have a red check on gonzaw. I tell you this. You smack your head and go, "Aha! It all makes sense now. I should have known Gonzaw was mafia, because __________." If you so choose, you can keep going and add, "Also, now that I know the mafia team was sandroba/gonzaw/?, the third member is almost certainly _______."
EVERYONE ELSE I'M NOT A COP. I DON'T HAVE A RED CHECK.
Just curious. If it were to turn out that Gonzaw is mafia, when you look at his filter, what would give you that, "man, I should have seen this thing because it points towards mafia Gonzaw" feeling? Actually let me give a preliminary answer to that right now: I would say Gonzaw got framed. There is no way in hell I can believe that the way he has been playing currently points to a scum gonzaw---that's one conspiracy-theory-rabbit-hole I just won't fit my fat ass into. I'll read his filter *shudder* once I finish what I'm doing just to be absolutely certain but I don't see my answer changing.
It's obvious I tried to save my scumbuddy Foo by trying to get him lynched, then get my actual sandro buddy lynched, to make me and Foo look good so then I can fake having a change of heart on him and ride that town cred to victory
Of course.
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EBWOP:
I also wouldn't really talk too much about that "if sandro is town he'll do good later" stuff you both posted
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
austin, for someone who claims to want to play "thread police", you've posted the most amount of twaddle in this thread in the last 24 hours.
"Don't talk about game-relevant things like voting"
"instead talk about a pointless hypothetical gonzaw is mafia scenario and loop around the same Foolish stuff 30 times, that's way better"
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Some of this Wave stuff is so bad. Parsing it now.
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On January 24 2014 22:12 gonzaw wrote:@Steve WoSniak: Ehmm. Seems you are trying way too hard to justify some of VE's behaviour....when it's basically injustifiable, you just say "it makes him scum" or "I'll ignore it". Show nested quote +I think the absolute worst thing VE has got going for him in his filter is his 'round-the-lynch' shenangians, Vote-swapping all over the place with zero justification. In my opinion however, that is the ONLY scummy thing he has going for him at this point in his filter. It's not small, but it is enough to ignore everything I've posted about thus far? Actually, yeah, it is. Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town" I also wouldn't really talk too much about that "if sandro is scum he'll do good later" stuff you both posted. Yes, if both of you are scum it's weird......but like really it seems to just have no importance at all when looking at the big picture or at stuff that matters (like....the lynch and shit) Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 14:31 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 24 2014 14:25 austinmcc wrote:
WoS, if you're still up, can I ask you to undertake a funky made-up task for me? Pretty please?
If your answer is yes and you're up and active, when you finish going through whatever you want to go through, I'd like for you to play along with this scenario. I am a cop. I have a red check on gonzaw. I tell you this. You smack your head and go, "Aha! It all makes sense now. I should have known Gonzaw was mafia, because __________." If you so choose, you can keep going and add, "Also, now that I know the mafia team was sandroba/gonzaw/?, the third member is almost certainly _______."
EVERYONE ELSE I'M NOT A COP. I DON'T HAVE A RED CHECK.
Just curious. If it were to turn out that Gonzaw is mafia, when you look at his filter, what would give you that, "man, I should have seen this thing because it points towards mafia Gonzaw" feeling? Actually let me give a preliminary answer to that right now: I would say Gonzaw got framed. There is no way in hell I can believe that the way he has been playing currently points to a scum gonzaw---that's one conspiracy-theory-rabbit-hole I just won't fit my fat ass into. I'll read his filter *shudder* once I finish what I'm doing just to be absolutely certain but I don't see my answer changing. It's obvious I tried to save my scumbuddy Foo by trying to get him lynched, then get my actual sandro buddy lynched, to make me and Foo look good so then I can fake having a change of heart on him and ride that town cred to victory Of course.
Then you and I have vastly differing opinions of what is important and what isn't. We should only be focusing on what happened around the lynch and ignoring everything else? Kinda strange because aren't you waffling on which of 'the five (now four)' are immune or not? (Personally I am of the belief it's only you and probably austin based simply on voting). I could also swear there was talk about how voting analysis shouldn't be the only thing we consider for the lynching today...? I'm not going to dump everything else from a filter (mine, Prome's VE's) just because of what happened in a one hour span of time.
Now that I'm up, I think it may be time to move onto defenses and Foolishness, unless anyone else has anything to talk about with me/add.
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On January 24 2014 22:29 marvellosity wrote:
Some of this Wave stuff is so bad. Parsing it now.
Yeah, expecting this.
Not really caring, nor am I going to stop so do as you will.
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So you don't think VE randomly voting Holy for no reason, then randomly voting Foo for even less reasons, then not giving a shit and parking his vote on him, is important?
You really think stuff like him shitting on me "coming from town VE who wants to put info out there!" is more important than that?
If VE comes here and says "I'm scum we are conceding bye", are you just going to say "Oh, good ol' town VE shenannigans! Ta-ta!" or something?
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On January 24 2014 22:34 gonzaw wrote:
So you don't think VE randomly voting Holy for no reason, then randomly voting Foo for even less reasons, then not giving a shit and parking his vote on him, is important?
You really think stuff like him shitting on me "coming from town VE who wants to put info out there!" is more important than that?
If VE comes here and says "I'm scum we are conceding bye", are you just going to say "Oh, good ol' town VE shenannigans! Ta-ta!" or something?
As much as I appreciate your snide attitude, yes of course its important. There are, however behavioral matters that can also be taken into consideration that YOU are ignoring. We are looking at this differently.
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Well. Marv is the VE expert here, let's see what he thinks of those kind of stuff.
Hmm, you know...it's kind of funny, but VE hasn't FOSed marv yet. He always does that lol
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On January 24 2014 13:24 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:22 VisceraEyes wrote:
If we're talking meta, pressure won't mean anything to sandroba. He'll either play or he won't, and if he's town he'll probably find some scum. People like kita voting for him as a joke will probably not pressure him as much as you seem to think. Now this one is slightly more interesting. VE and I again both came up with this at the same time. One must ask oneself here, given that we know now the alignment of one sandroba, do you really think VE and I would both defend him at the exact same time with basically the exact same post?
I've had mindmeld with people before, and this isn't it. It's a totally obvious point that can be brought up by anyone (whether in a similar timeframe or not). The examples generally provided by Wave are really weak examples.
On January 24 2014 13:24 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 01:39 VisceraEyes wrote:Regarding Wave, I mostly have a townread on Wave, but am biased because I'm super town to him. It's a failing.  This post belies a towny mindset. Nothing much more to say about this one---I believe a post like this probably isn't easy to fake as scum. It's a known fallacy to gutread someone who thinks you're town as town, an obviously doesn't always apply given the people in this game life Foolishness who were suspect for throwing out random-ass townreads, but as scum it's certainly easier to throw out those townreads without coming up with a specific reason such as this. It's all in the mentality.
It's like you've never even seen VE play mafia or something? This is incredibly bad and VE is so, so capable of posting stuff like this as mafia. And it's actually really easy as mafia, because one thing you're looking out for as a scumplayer is allies. You're hyperaware of who is suspicious of you and who is friendly towards you when you are scum. Ez pz.
On January 24 2014 13:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
I think the absolute worst thing VE has got going for him in his filter is his 'round-the-lynch' shenangians, Vote-swapping all over the place with zero justification. In my opinion however, that is the ONLY scummy thing he has going for him at this point in his filter. It's not small, but it is enough to ignore everything I've posted about thus far?
So yeah, the reasons so far are mostly :/
On January 24 2014 14:27 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 07:22 Promethelax wrote:On January 23 2014 06:03 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 05:53 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 23 2014 05:51 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 05:47 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 22 2014 07:50 marvellosity wrote:On January 22 2014 07:45 Hapahauli wrote:On January 22 2014 07:37 marvellosity wrote:
ok he can stay for now
##unvote Would this suggest that you agree with Fool's reads, or do you just think his post is a town-tell? Do you think he's capable of faking those kinds of posts as scum? I think his post looks reasonable townie and there's a lot of effort. I'm not sure how much i agree with his reads atm kita lower, prome higher, marv much much higher, WoS ??, gonzaw higher But his reasoning feels townie - putting me where I am because I'm forgettable, while ego crushing I like it as an angle to take, it's non-routine i think he's capable of these posts as mafia, especially after the champions game, and the way he made a list at the end was actually eerily similar to how he made lists at the end of those posts :p but overall the meat of it made sense. and he's trying Yeah...I'm in agreement with a lot of marv stuff from his filter, and the timing at which he posted stuff. One thing that stuck out is the above. I'm wondering why marv gave me a ??? at that point considering it seems likely he thought I was town before that from his attitude towards me. Meh..maybe not. And then this comes after my return On January 23 2014 02:49 marvellosity wrote:On January 23 2014 02:43 kitaman27 wrote:On January 22 2014 22:53 marvellosity wrote:On January 22 2014 22:49 kitaman27 wrote:
I'd much rather hear who marv is considering voting, rather than defending a player he thinks is town.
Wave looks better, for obvious reasons Could you expand on this, even if it's brief? I didn't pick up on the obvious reason. Mine read was more based on the lack of anything wrong, rather than an abundance of anything he has done that is helpful. Also, could you justify your Holyflare vote for me with specifics? You mention that you thought gonzaw's points were good. Is that what you're going by or is the vote mostly due to his absence from the thread? I currently don't have a strong preference between sandroba and Holyflare and it seems like sandroba hasn't been inspired to rejoin the thread. I'll vote with you for the time being. ##Unvote
##Vote Holyflare Wave is waffling earnestly at length as I'd expect him to. Although he's only got one scumgame, I'd very much expect him to be more direct than he has been if mafia. I've been suspicious of him in two reasonably recent games for being slow and waffly (##, LXIV) and now it just seems it's how he opens day 1 as town. So maybe not obvious after all. I just think his thought process is transparent. Like he's posted a lot of his thought process, where's his agenda? Mainly with Holy that he seems angrier than was justified. But most of all it's the constant niggling at Hapa, especially with his last post(s) when Hapa was by a large margin the towniest guy in the thread. It's just not natural at all. Tbh I don't make a massive amount of his absence, I believe he'd be here posting as either alignment, so not that alignment indicative. I guess I expect marv to know...I dunno...more about me? Maybe why I was shocked he found me scummy in those games because I don't believe i've shifted my meta all that much in between games, and town-marv always seems to find me town eventually for all the right reasons. Yeah....would not lynch, but marv you left me high and dry---our palaver did not quench my thirst for you this game. (And it's basically become tradition at this point) I'm not upset with any of Marv's individual posts, but his overall play so far. There's a lot of 'overall play' I'm disappointed with atm, Prome included to some degree. Does it make those people scum? No, but Marvellosity is known for getting things done on day 1. I keep wanting to think you are town but you come up with bullshit like this that isn't even remotely true. I cannot believe that town foolishness actually believes these things as they are not remotely true. ##unvote
##vote: foolishnessI simply cannot connect the idea of foolishness being a good town player and him being town while saying things so blatantly false about so many players in this game. This sounds familiar. That's right, it's the exact same rationale he uses against VE later on in the day! Now while this doesn't indicate scum, I'm not sure of the viability of applying the same heuristic to multiple people like this---essentially every time somebody doesn't perform to your liking, you try to call them scum? I maybe should give it a little more credence because this heuristic is entirely meta-based and I know Prome is good at meta, but where is the proof? For us laypeople, how do I know that Foolishness is better than this? This kind of thing falls into 'stuff that doesn't pop out' territory. I can throw this back at him; I've seen Prome play, and I know he is capable of blasting people away with insane cases. He hasn't done it this game. Scum? (See how easy that was?)
I literally don't see the issue with this. I don't see how it's even supposed to be scummy. I use this heuristic regularly, mostly with success (Wave in LXIV was an exception... :p). Several fast examples: Fool in champions game n2/d3 or so, syllogism in Hydra 2 re: wagon forming, Palmar in Rock Band re:me, Palmar in Bureaucracy re:syllogism, sandroba this game re rome. "I expect x from y as town, and this is getting it all wrong" is something that you can apply to any player, you just obviously have to apply it to different extents. I don't see in any way how this makes someone mafia...
On January 24 2014 16:20 WaveofShadow wrote:You know who else nitpicks at obviously stupid things? Foolishness.
What's the point this is making?
Wave, your whole defence of VE on the whole feels very stretched.
And on the other hand, your whole attack of Prome feels similarly stretched the other way. Especially since you spend much of your posts on Prome telling us that this and that looks reasonable. And it seems very in isolation from how the wagons went down, and how sandroba treated Prome.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:12 gonzaw wrote:
Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town"
From what I could tell, he usually comes out with this huge "why VE is town" post the day he is about to die. I didn't find any examples to compare to his behavior this game, aside from a few overly aggressive/frustrated posts.
What worries me about WoS's post is that he doesn't seem to consider the sandroba vote on Prom. Even if he has a scum conclusion, I'd think he would at least comment why it's a calculated move.
I'll have a longer post out today on WoS/VE, but I might not have the time until this evening.
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I just find that there's a lot of 'objectively scummy' actions lately throughout TL mafia (martyring for example) that can't be used strictly as mafia tells anymore---the vote switching without reason is one example. I agree that sort of thing and the way it was done is probably more likely to come from scum here, but it's not impossible for him to have been frenetically moving around as town, and I find myself expressing way too much doubt given everything else in his filter to be comfortable singling him out as the best lynch of the day.
(Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.)
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marv, does that bad defence tell you more about scum WoS or scum VE?
You know, if VE was town I think he'd be all over marv this game. Only lurker Foolishness had the balls to call marv scum this game basically (for marv "not doing anything" and "not saying anything memorable" and the like). With a town VE in this game, would that really happen? VE never mentioned marv at all this game I think (might be wrong though, but cba to check his filter im at work)
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On January 24 2014 22:48 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:12 gonzaw wrote:
Way more important than "Does VE ragequit as scum?" speculation and "Scum VE wouldn't post shit on gonzaw with shitty reasons because he'd know it'd look bad therefore VE is town" From what I could tell, he usually comes out with this huge "why VE is town" post the day he is about to die. I didn't find any examples to compare to his behavior this game, aside from a few overly aggressive/frustrated posts. What worries me about WoS's post is that he doesn't seem to consider the sandroba vote on Prom. Even if he has a scum conclusion, I'd think he would at least comment why it's a calculated move.I'll have a longer post out today on WoS/VE, but I might not have the time until this evening.
On January 24 2014 22:47 marvellosity wrote:
Wave, your whole defence of VE on the whole feels very stretched.
And on the other hand, your whole attack of Prome feels similarly stretched the other way. Especially since you spend much of your posts on Prome telling us that this and that looks reasonable. And it seems very in isolation from how the wagons went down, and how sandroba treated Prome.
ZOMG MIND MELD
kita confirmed town
gg
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On January 24 2014 22:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
I just find that there's a lot of 'objectively scummy' actions lately throughout TL mafia (martyring for example) that can't be used strictly as mafia tells anymore---the vote switching without reason is one example. I agree that sort of thing and the way it was done is probably more likely to come from scum here, but it's not impossible for him to have been frenetically moving around as town, and I find myself expressing way too much doubt given everything else in his filter to be comfortable singling him out as the best lynch of the day.
(Also important to consider, though it's up to you whether you want to or not, but by defending VE and doing what I am doing, not only am I drawing all attention to myself, but I am also attempting to eliminate one everyone's strongest scumreads from the list, forcing everyone to move down the list----to me.)
That might be right, you don't have to instantly assume the guy is scum by that stuff...
...but you are calling him town for it. That's a big difference, that's what doesn't make sense.
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I spoke about how sandroba treated Prome. Entirely likely that case was a bus because it was shit; I just don't think sandroba though it would draw everyone to him like it did---I don't think he realized quite how shit it would be.
Marv I went through filters and I went through what I found to be important one way or another in isolation from voting analysis because it's been done to death, both by me and everyone else in here. No one has been able to draw effective conclusions one way or the other---some people still suspect austin for example, while I don't.
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EPT
