On January 23 2014 05:07 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 10:12 VisceraEyes wrote:Here's something that I still find off about Foolish's reentry post. On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote:The thing with VE is that yes, on his own some of his posts are suspicious. This one in particular made me raise an eyebrow: + Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Morning guys. Marv no, I don't think it's the same kind of Prome that I'm used to seeing. What it reminds me of is that game I was the mayor and lynched the piss out of Prome D1. He was a lurky little shit that game, but I caught him on something very similar to what I noticed this game. Like I think it's awful that I have to ask this, but did you read my post on him?
That being said, I at least dig one of his targets. I asked Foolish about his thoughts on this same matter and what I got is "lol you and Hapa townies" which is definitely NOT what I was after. He answered my question as if he'd read the exchange between us, but left me with a feeling that he hadn't actually read anything at all.
If I see one more person say they're going to ignore my posts, I won't be responsible for the outcome. You have been warned. However I think if you just read through his filter and analyze it as a whole there's nothing to be afraid of. Is he pushing any sort of mafia agenda? No. Does it feel like he doesn't have the town's best interest in mind? No. Does it feel like he's actually trying to figure things out? Yes. This is where he explains his super townread of me right? But look at the bolded bit. He's criticizing me asking marv about my Prom post and the part where I share my observation about our interaction, but says that the TOWNIE bit is the last two sentences, the "fluffy" angry nonsense at the end. Like, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. He thinks I'm town, presumably he knows that I share at least Promethelax as a scumread, but he tries to lightly discredit me while calling me townie? And after the entire post, I STILL don't know if he actually READ my post on Promethelax. Something doesn't add up. I'm missing something, somewhere. Bringing light to the fact that your post was incredibly weird minus the last two sentences. It was really odd, and I don't think I'm the only one who said so. You're town and we all know it. Don't pull a gonzaw. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 03:10 gonzaw wrote:
You know, I'm kind of serious with this Foolishness stuff. Does any one of you have anything to say about him?
Basically:
1)Voting WOS, wanting to lynch other guys, but never change his vote and goes AFK
2)Seeming contradiction, since he almost thought I was scummy scum because I "did" something similar
3)People seemed to find him town because they agreed with him. But right now, apparently town sentiment against WOS and Prome dropped, so what makes that post of him townie now?
4)Remember the time he made a horrible entrance to the game making a scummy vote, pointless post and unfounded reads? 1) I explained why I kept my vote on WoS, since then he has responded and I liked what he said. He's being very affirmative and speaking his thoughts. When I first accused him early in the day I thought the opposite of this (also explained in my earlier posts). Now he's here, he's posting, and he's trying for the town. And that's the direction I started to lean towards when I made my big post. My vote on WoS was to affirm this suspicion, and also to get other people to comment on it. 2) Don't know what you're exactly referring to. But you were being trolly at the start of the day and it was impossible to know what your motives were. Your motives are clear now. As I also said in my recent post, you dying would answer a lot of questions. Not that that's going to happen anytime soon (or ever really). 3) Promethelax is scum. WoS probably not. Read above. 4) Nope. ##Unvote
##Vote: Promethelax
Hey so Foolishness, I'm still doing what you described. Am I still town? If I'm not, your townread was weak to begin with because I haven't changed my behaviour any, and it was just a method to brush off the crappy way you attacked me and called me scum and then started to back off in the first place.
On January 23 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:33 gonzaw wrote:
Foolishness, who of these 2 is mafia?
sandroba
marvellosity
Assume you HAVE to pick ONLY ONE of them. Which one do you pick and why? Marvellosity. He's posted a bunch and hasn't done anything. Can you tell me without looking at his filter something that marvellosity has done for the town this game? + Show Spoiler +The real answer to your question is "both" Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
But I am in no way convinced about Prome by your earlier case, like, at all. Your return simply makes me want to lynch you less. Are you going to vote for HolyFlare then?
Looking at this now makes me want to try even harder to confirm VE's Foolishness/Sandroba/Prome scumteam. Prome's early push on Prome was okayyy, but then he doesn't do anything else about it even when prome returned to thread. makes sense from the POV that he wanted to let his buddy come back and start to look better while making his own early case look weaker, and if so mission successful. His question about if I'm going to vote Holy looks like a deflection given the above scenario. (Toad/Prome/Fool can't all be scum so once I'm done I'm going to have to consider everything at once---just going through it atm)
On January 23 2014 05:57 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:49 kitaman27 wrote:
I think marv, sandroba, Prom is my personal top three right now.
If foolishness is mafia with someone like VE/Holy, he is doing a great job at appealing to my interests XD I already said that I'm prefectly okay with HolyFlare getting lynched. And by perfectly okay, I really mean okay. As in, if guys are that convinced that Promethelax needs another chance then please let me know now so I can move my vote.
Same as above. Looks horrible if VE is right.
On January 23 2014 06:39 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 06:34 marvellosity wrote:On January 23 2014 06:32 Foolishness wrote:On January 23 2014 06:27 marvellosity wrote:kita: I think your first and last paragraphs contain your best points, I'm going to reread on that basis now I think On January 23 2014 06:17 Foolishness wrote:There's also this game where marvellosity is mafia: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426387&user=marvellosity&view=allAnd there is a notable difference between that game and him this game. In that game where he is mafia he's much more trolly and has a very notable attitude: lots of swearing, calling people idiots, and quoting a post and responding "lol". Now I know his attitude has improved on the whole, but the fact that he's taking this game seriously probably does say something about him. So what is it saying, Fool? Well it did say you were town. But now you're nitpicking over something about sandroba, and when your vote comes down on me you're definitely going to have a lot of explaining to do on why you caused a town to be lynched after not pushing anyone day 1. How is that nitpicking? Why don't you seem vaguely interested in sandroba and instead only some murmurings? What were his strong posts? The one on Prome? Would you kill sand today instead of Prome? It's nitpicking cause I said that his opening was fine (when he first started posting). And I posted that not too long after he was here and posting (check the timestamps). Now you're claiming that I am, but am not but maybe I was interested and oh here's a quote from Liar Game with some analysis that is only tangentially related to my argument. At least Gonzaw's tunneling has conviction behind it (which is why he's town and you aren't). Show some conviction if you think I'm mafia. I would not bat an eye if sandroba died. The problem is is that Promethelax is mafia and there is solid information on why. What's the information saying sandroba is mafia? oh he's inactive. Well great, welcome to day 1 sandroba.
Moooooore deflection, this time from sandroba. And he hard defends sandroba the rest of that day if i remember correctly. Question then becomes is that something a mafia Foolishness would do? I'd be inclined to say no tbh, but in discussions other people have had about Foolishness I get the idea that a lot of 'classic' tells that wouldn't necessarily work on most people would still work on Foolishness---like defending a scummer. That one is just gut feels though so I'd probably have to give the above a null or even slight towniness since I find hard defending a scummer that will be lynched a little bit ridiculous---unless he started defending him assuming he wouldn't pick up enough steam and by the time it did it was too late to stop...?
On January 23 2014 06:53 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 06:45 gonzaw wrote:
All of you guys are officially mindfucking me right now.
Foo, please PLEASE tell me one thing: WTF is up with your first posts?
Why:
1)Vote someone without posting any reason behind it, then AFKing before doing so
2)Randomly call 2 guys town, again, without posting any reason behind it, nor having any kind of previous interaction with them nor context to make us know why you think so. 1) To see how people would respond to it, but mostly to see how he responded. I quoted his first post (which is suspicious as I've already explained) so that you would know where I saw the evidence before I revealed my whole hand. 2) Which 2 guys? I'm pretty sure I explained everything here. + Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 07:19 Foolishness wrote:Here's what I think is going on this game. There are quite a few questionable people in this game, but by eliminating some obvious town players things start to make more sense. Towniest of townsHapa VE Kitaman Hapa is by far the most town person in this game? Why, put simply if you read his filter he is here, he is active and he is pushing pro-town agendas. This is seen because he is generating conversation, trying to organize the town and get everyone on the same page, and questioning suspicious players where appropriate. This is not a matter of debate if you have read the thread. Kitaman is similar in matter and this has already been brought to light by a few players. Actually when I started reading the game yesterday his posting reminded me a lot of myself. Slight trolly attitude to try to get things moving, but when push came to shove he was there to call people out on their shit. Now, if you want to read into that and say, "But Foolishness, Kitaman is usually a strong analyzer, posting paragraphs of information and analysis about a person's behavior and actions" I got nothing to say back about that yet. Though I'm sure time will confirm what I think here. The thing with VE is that yes, on his own some of his posts are suspicious. This one in particular made me raise an eyebrow: + Show Spoiler +On January 22 2014 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Morning guys. Marv no, I don't think it's the same kind of Prome that I'm used to seeing. What it reminds me of is that game I was the mayor and lynched the piss out of Prome D1. He was a lurky little shit that game, but I caught him on something very similar to what I noticed this game. Like I think it's awful that I have to ask this, but did you read my post on him?
That being said, I at least dig one of his targets. I asked Foolish about his thoughts on this same matter and what I got is "lol you and Hapa townies" which is definitely NOT what I was after. He answered my question as if he'd read the exchange between us, but left me with a feeling that he hadn't actually read anything at all.
If I see one more person say they're going to ignore my posts, I won't be responsible for the outcome. You have been warned. where the first two paragraphs seem really out of place and forced, though the last two sentences of the post read very town. However I think if you just read through his filter and analyze it as a whole there's nothing to be afraid of. Is he pushing any sort of mafia agenda? No. Does it feel like he doesn't have the town's best interest in mind? No. Does it feel like he's actually trying to figure things out? Yes. Now I can see why some people have shed some suspicion on him (unlike anyone calling Hapa or Kita mafia), but he just does not feel mafia, and he's definitely interested in the game. Questionable playersAustin sandroba marvellosity Holyflare Gonzaw This is roughly in order of most to least town. Austin and sandroba might as well be afk until 3 pages ago, but since coming to the thread both have had strong appearances. I'm okay with them right now because they have brought things to the thread, and it is also obvious that if they continue their activity then they are town. If they keep going afk for long periods of time then start to worry. But I don't feel like that will happen. The following 3 people are all in the ? category. Marvellosity and Holyflare in particular because for all that they have said I don't feel they have really contributed much. Even as I'm writing this I'm thinking back, "what has marvellosity or holyflare done this game", and I cannot remember a single post they have made. That's a bad sign. Anything mafia indicative off the bat? No so much, but then seem to be here without actually being here. Gonzaw is only questionable and not mafia because of his recent vote on me. As kitaman properly pointed out, gonzaw brought up a lot of new information about the case on me. That's good and productive. But as he also pointed out, gonzaw just kinda did nothing with it. "Oh here you go I did some research, now don't mind me anymore let me go be trolly and lurk some more" is that kinda vibe I got from that. mafiaPromethelax WaveOfShadow I will go into a little more detail here. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum.
One of these days I will have another scumgame; it seems that day is not today.
Holy! Where you at? I've never played a non-voice game with you before. Let's do something.
What about this post is good? He says generic things that anybody can say. Also the "Let's do something" seems incredibly forced. What does he hope to accomplish by saying that? I don't know (most likely he's mafia) and it feels like he's trying very hard to sound like he's vested in the game (when all he would have to do is just post whatever his thoughts are). And then there's this post as well. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 11:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote:
Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something.
Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers.
It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen.
I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies.
And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum.
Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money.
So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. I don't think lurkers will be an issue in this game. I'm really confused by your opener though...you want to discuss policy and then you state right after that you don't want to discuss it? Like...discussion of policy on its own isn't scummy imo but why did you go about it so awkwardly? I do agree with the non-aggression thing, but no offense---I'd imagine you'd have to be one of the primary people to agree with that (and it seems as though you have?) Now onto more important details: why specifically Hapa? Do you two have a history? Is he going to want to make a case on you at all, never mind find something specific in this post of yours in order to make one? Which fails to do nothing but ask more questions of which he never followed through on (neither of them really followed through on to be honest), when he could do have done something like actively push Promethelax to say something of substance. The thing about Promethelax is that his first post is a big pile of words and nobody said anything about it besides WoS which was just a passing remark. Here's the post again: + Show Spoiler +On January 21 2014 11:35 Promethelax wrote:
Okay broskis, this is just silly. We know how to start a game and it isn't this Mafia Scum inspired baseless lynches shall we discuss policy? Why yes we shall because you all will actually have to commit to something.
Since we aren't the run of the mill hokey dory TL types I think its time we set a few ground rules: there should be no discussion of policy lynching lurkers. We simply lynch them. If everyone is good enough to be shadowed everyone is good enough to play the game and we cannot tolerate lurkers.
It is my hope that this particular policy doesn't come into play since, obviously, we are the best that TL has so we should play the best as well and lurking simply isn't the best. We are all good enough to carry a town and I would like us all to be that good this game. Play your hearts out gentlemen.
I would also like a non-aggression pact. That is we all agree to play nice since I'd rather like to be good role models for our newbies.
And yes, I know I'm scummy for posting this, does someone want to come out and say it so that I can defend myself and we can move on with this game and make actual cases on each other and find scum.
Unlike WoS I was excited to roll scum in this game, I figured I'd have an excuse to be steamrolled but if I did a good job it would be a huge accomplishment but no, I'm town, I have to figure things out. I would much rather lie to you all but fuck me, I don't get to lie to you. I gotta work for my money.
So get it together boys, we are policy lynching lurkers, we aren't going to be mean to each other and we are going to catch scum. And we'll start with Hapa making a case on me, why? Because its tradition is why. Promethelax even admits that his post is awful and that we should call him out on it. Sounds great to me! This kinda bait is definitely a mafia trait and if he thinks he's posting bad then we should definitely lynch him for it. The reason being, if he knows his post his bad why is he making it in the first place? His initial post accomplishes nothing and says nothing and only adds fluff to the thread. I am also bothered by his most recent thread post: Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 22:42 Promethelax wrote:On January 21 2014 19:25 marvellosity wrote:On January 21 2014 13:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
It's just one of those things that may or may not end up adding up to something. Prome's thing is worse to me because he literally made up reasoning to respond to me. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Fluffy? What does that even mean? You don't think Prome is being typical arch-bullshitter as per usual? Sometimes it worries me that you and I know each other so well when it comes to this game. Sometimes it makes me warm and fuzzy. People I don't like: Foolishness (total lack of justification and his total dismissal of VE/Hapa as townie v townie, both of them are totally capable of what they have done so far as scum and to just not be interested in them at all is scummy) Kita (said "I don't call people scummy early because it makes people listen to me less later" which isn't true and so totally wired that it rings scummy since I cannot figure out what it gives a town Kita while it does provide some benefit to a scum Kita.) People who are Gonzaw but haven't posted Gonzaw like posts after fluff o'clock : Gonzaw Because all his reads feel very convenient. There is nothing in his filter that gives us new information or his original thoughts. I'm leaving my vote where it is for now, honestly Promethelax is the best lynch right now because the case on him is the strongest, but I need to hear opinions on WaveOfShadow while we have the time.
Who we are lynching today: Promethelax, WaveOfShadow. If they died probably not a huge loss: marvellosity, HolyFlare, Gonzaw Everyone else deserves to live another day at the least. In case you're talking about something more recent, the mafia are in the following people: Promethelax, HolyFlare, Sandroba, Marvellosity. WaveOfShadow's vote is really meh but he's probably town and I'm over-thinking it (and I'm also probably biased from my day 1 read of him). Everyone else is town, if you want an explanation then ask and say who. I don't have time to respond to all your tunnel arguments.
Hey look at that, I'm still town! What changed in the time between then and when you started calling me scum? Something else that bothered me is this is one of many times Foolishness says "I'm maybe overthinking this" or something of the like. SO I'm not allowed to be wishy-washy but Foolishness is? Thems looks likes some double standards to me---especially if Foolishness ever calls me scum for being wishy washy.
On January 24 2014 11:46 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 10:11 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 22 2014 06:02 Holyflare wrote:@Hapa, the part of VE is irrespective of whether you are voting him or not. I am not you and I do not know how you play. The fact that you had to explain how your process of scum hunting works to me should be justification of that. All I can see is a person who was making points that were contradictary and sticking to things whenever he found them, thus, I ask questions to determine mindsets and thought processes so I can get a better read on someone further into the game. Thank you for responding. As for not being more critical of the read on myself... well I'm fucking obviously town. That much should be clear from my early-game interest level, and the multitude of players calling me town so early (citing my lack of interest level when I'm mafia in general). If you are town, you are obviously town to yourself. When another player that you do not know the alignment of says you are town, when there was plenty of information that made you look not town, (the stuff that I was bringing up) then alarm bells should ring. I do not know if it's a difference in styles or because I'm just super paranoid in general but these are the things I look out for. This post in specific by Holy I feel is important. The nitpicking he has been doing in regards to gonzaw and Hapa feels townie to me, and I do agree with his final thoughts except that final sentence rubs me the wrong way. The game of mafia is by nature a game of paranoia and I don't really feel that his line of questioning needed justification in that way---the 'things he looks out for' seem perfectly natural things for a townie to look out for (and hence why I was liking a lot of his posting), but then why make excuses for yourself at the end with that final sentence? Where is the holy wrath, righteousness and vindication ina townie knowing you're doing the right thing? Holy, your filter has completely been devoid of me, and I believe I get my best reads from conversing with people directly, so maybe now that we're both here we can talk just a little? Since you were curious over some people's obsession with Foolishness before he started to contribute, I might guess that now that he's actually done something you might actually have something to comment on the matter? What do you make of the fact that he has apparently chosen you as one of his primary targets for the day? (He still has his vote on me i believe but I imagine that will be moved one way or another.) Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 00:14 WaveofShadow wrote:
Actually on second thought, more detailed reads will have to wait until later in the day.
Until then, notes:
Firm null on Prome - VE's points about the 'conversation starter' similarities to LX ring true with me, though he appears to have more of an actual direction this game. There was stuff about his earlier content I both liked and disliked, too early to tell on him. Still waiting on breakout case from him and others.
Holy - No fucking clue---never played with him before. Some of the pseudo-anger displayed could be seen as townie but I don't really give it much weight---nitpicking Hapa seems really odd. Gonna have to look deeper on this.
Be back in a few hours.
Feels like this isn't the first time he's gone back and forth on something.
Hey look at that!
On January 24 2014 04:52 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:49 gonzaw wrote:Anyways, nobody listened to me so I'll do it myself: kita makes that "joke-serious" post on sandro here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=12#223That alone doesn't really tell me much about kita though. Later, he keeps doing the "sandro is a good lynch vote him!" stuff, which could be odd if his sandro's buddy. But then he drops it so it's not really alignment indicative. Hmm, although it puts him in a more townie light. For example with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=14#268http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=14#270Kita's vote on sandro do seem to have a purpose, which is consistent with his posts up there. It is a discussion starter, it does pressure the lurker, etc. I don't find it likely scum kita would start his "game" at the coast of sandro like that. Not strong evidence, but my gut says it makes sense as town kita. Also, in a wifomy way, I think this makes Hapa very likely town (more than he is now): On January 21 2014 09:39 Hapahauli wrote:On January 21 2014 09:31 kitaman27 wrote:On January 21 2014 09:29 sandroba wrote:
I'm trying to figure that out too. My plan as of now is to wait for some scummer to give themselves away in their first post. Not much of a plan if you're going to warn people about what you're looking for. ##Vote Sandroba(Did you catch me?) Normally, even early-game troll votes have some pretense to find someone suspicious/mafia (even if stretched alot). This post doesn't follow. It doesn't call Sandroba scum in any joking/trolling way. You're just calling his actions dumb, then voting for them. Which is a pretty scummy thought process. How are you constructing Sandroba's post to be scummy as opposed to just stupid? If you are scum, and your scumbuddy makes an "awful" first post someone votes him for....do you really chainsaw defend him in such an OBVIOUS manner? Hapa keeps up with this too, going against kita. It feels genuine. Also this: On January 21 2014 11:18 Hapahauli wrote:On January 21 2014 10:51 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 21 2014 10:46 kitaman27 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Welp, gonna go with my usual opener.
I think the only difference here is for the first time I'm actually relieved to roll town. I'd be pretty terrified to go up against this town as scum. I was kinda hoping to role mafia with the all vanilla setup. They probably have the advantage regardless of who is playing. Wanna vote sandroba with me? He may or may not be scummy. lol I'm really hoping you're not scum kita. Nah no reason to vote sandroba yet. Not only is there basically nothing to vote him for, I've seen what he's capable of as the game progresses (from PYP) and if he is town and plays this game anything like that, he'll start slow and then start bringing the pain to scum. I don't understand your reasoning here. What does him being a "slow-starter" have to do with not wanting to vote for him? For example, wouldn't it be arguably good to put pressure on him early to determine his alignment? He even plays devil's advocate when someone defends sandro. He didn't hesitate to do this kind of stuff. I just don't see him doing this being scumbuddies with sandro at all. Of course, there's the rest of his play, but this I think basically convinces me to never lynch Hapa in this game. So, this is our foundation so far
gonzaw
austin
HapaThese 3 are untouchables, remove them from any scumlist, or any "possible" scum list (at least until one of them does something utterly stupid or something). marvy marv is not untouchable yet. But to touch him, you have to do it softly and gently. I don't see any reason why all five of the people on sandroba aren't exempt. Yes I know what I said about marvellosity yesterday and that I would lynch him, but as I pointed out in my previous post here it doesn't seem likely for mafia to hop aboard the sandroba bandwagon. Really the most likely scenario of this happening is the mafia bus of sandroba, and given by the votes and who was voting that would probably mean that I'm mafia as well. I suggest reading my post I linked above again because based on the timestamps and who was voting and why I think it's clear that everyone on sandroba is town (as unlikely as that sounds in terms of raw numbers). Any of the people that switched had good reason to keep their vote on me. Moreso, as I pointed out, it is likely that Promethelax is town because mafia were sitting good with myself being the top lynch and second in line (Promethelax) also a town lynch. The overall point here is that the sandroba bandwagon was not initiated by mafia nor exacerbated by mafia. Mafia were sitting pretty and never expected that sort of switch to happen in the last 10 minutes. Furthermore the votes on sandroba were so close (1 minute apart for the last two) that it's very unlikely Promethelax was like, "oh I can vote for my mafia scumbuddy to gain credibility cause he already has the most votes". No, things happened too fast for it to be planned out like that. No scum would have moved to him at the start, no scum would have moved to him during the middle, and no scum would move to him at the end.
Based on what happened, I suggest we look at WoS as well as VE. I like the arguments brought up against VE so far and I think a lot of the same thing can be applied to WoS as well. In particular lazily throwing his vote down on me. Here are his posts about me after I started posting in the second half of the day up to the point where he voted for me and left. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
But I am in no way convinced about Prome by your earlier case, like, at all. Your return simply makes me want to lynch you less. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
IF VE is scum I will have a big sad.
I'm quickly running out of time as I won't be here for lynch so I may have to sheep someone---my other strong townreads aren't here atm so it may be gonzaw.
Gonzaw assuming you now hold my vote as well and could place it where you wanted, which of the two you mentioned would you put it on? Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:58 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 23 2014 05:54 gonzaw wrote:On January 23 2014 05:52 WaveofShadow wrote:
IF VE is scum I will have a big sad.
I'm quickly running out of time as I won't be here for lynch so I may have to sheep someone---my other strong townreads aren't here atm so it may be gonzaw.
Gonzaw assuming you now hold my vote as well and could place it where you wanted, which of the two you mentioned would you put it on? Foolishness. So not marv/sandroba then. I might still be able to get behind that. His answers were good enough...they fit for lack of a better term, and I'm not bothered by the same thing you are regarding his read of austin but it's the early play that doesn't make sense to me. I can't reconcile his using the barest effort he put in for the first 30 or so hours of the game to first toss a vote up on me and give what appeared to me to be 'not the greatest' reads... I want to re-look over his case on Prome because I already know I thought hsi case on me was pure bunk and I said so earlier---I'm a little too self-focused. Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 06:24 WaveofShadow wrote:
Alright final post, I'm feeling better about dropping my vote here.
Call it a sheep of gonzaw or thread sentiment if you want, if not you can use my current line of questions/suspicion including my earlier problems with his first case on me.
This may be one of the most difficult games I've played in, and it's a good kind of difficult.
##Vote: Foolishness
Be back a little bit after deadline. What is disturbing about this is his wishy-washy behavior about me. He says he doesn't agree with my case on Promethelax, and that's fine in itself, and he also says he wants to "lynch me less". Then before voting for me says that my answers were "good enough" and that they "fit for a lack of a better term", and that it's my "early play that doesn't make sense to me". If my answers are fitting and good enough why are you voting for me? Just cause you don't agree with me on a person being mafia does not make me mafia. I was actually really surprised when he dropped his vote on me, who tells someone that they have good answers but they are still lynching them? What is also interesting is that he's entirely sheeping a read and admitting to it. Admitting to sheeping a read does not exempt you from sheeping a read. Does it seem like he has his own opinion on the matter? Does it seem like he has an idea of who to vote for? No. Look through his posts, he never really accuses anyone, and never says that he thinks person X would be a good lynch (as I said above, he never said that directly about me either). He dances around a lot of people, myself, marvellosity, Promethelax, etc. Sure, he threw his vote down and knew he wasn't going to be here before the deadline, and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that he had no opinion on who should be lynched before the vote. Also his vote started a landslide, since there were already 2 votes on me, and at the time the next closest persons had 1 vote. This is a critical vote because it started the pile up on me, and when people came back and saw this they started piling on (even though those people piling on are likely town cause they all jumped ship to sandroba).
Ok so here's where Foolishness actually comes out and gives reasons as to my scumminess. problem is they're terrible. yeah I sheeped, yeah I didn't have strong convictions before I left, but guess what? Them's the breaks. He then attempts to blame me for the way the votes started to go down on him? lol. When I asked Gonzaw who he wanted me to vote for I thought he was gonna say somethign like sandroba at the time considering where the conversation was at the time. I was surprised he said Foolishness, and I was ok with that since overall there were things that I both liked and didn't like about his posting at the time, but if someone I found supertown felt good about a Foolishness lynch, considering I had no strong convictions I had no problem with that.
On January 24 2014 05:44 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 05:37 gonzaw wrote:@Foo: I'm not really going to put any attention on Prome or marv until way after some other dudes are dead. I just don't want to assume that kind of stuff in case I get paranoid later or something. Although meh fuck it I guess it doesn't hurt to consider those 4 "confirmed town", at least by the time D2 arrives.
About WOS:Well, I am the "direct" responsible for WOS's vote on D1, so I dunno if I can get anything meaningful out of it. Had I said "Vote sandro" he could have parked his vote on sandro. Then your story would be different Foo. I guess it's just something I'll likely ignore for now regarding WOS. For example: Then before voting for me says that my answers were "good enough" and that they "fit for a lack of a better term", and that it's my "early play that doesn't make sense to me". If my answers are fitting and good enough why are you voting for me? Couldn't you say this exact same thing about Prome's vote on sandro? Doesn't really think he's scum, but under pressure sheeps gonzaw into voting him. Couldn't WOS do the same thing? Not really think Foolishness is scum, but under pressure (he was apparently in a rush to leave), sheep gonzaw into voting him. The situations are so similar, that I don't know if I can critique one of them (WOS) without critiquing the other one (Prome). (of course not 100% similar, one was 5 minutes before lynch, but in the sense that I mentioned above they are kind of similar) Right, and what I'm trying to say is that the timing does matter here. Sheeping a read with 10 minutes left in the day makes more sense because you're in a high pressure situation. I don't think WoS was in a high pressure situation even if he had to leave. Why not just vote for who he thinks is most scummy even if it's not Promethelax or myself? Would it seem odd to you if instead his last post was, "Foolishness lynch doesn't seem right, case on Promethelax is weak, I'm voting *insert random other player here* because he's not contributing, not active as usual, saying silly things, whatever"? No, that wouldn't be odd cause that would be a townie's mindset. I'd have to go back and reread his filter to be sure, but from what I remember it seems like he was contributing a lot to the current lynch suspects but never bringing up suspects of his own.
So should I have randomly just brought up Hapa as a lynch just to be different? Wtf. I've already explained about my conviction so going over that again is useless. Foolishness wants me dead because i'm wishy-washy. Got it.
On January 24 2014 05:48 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 05:42 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways, I don't really see scum Foo here just shutting down basically possibilities for his scumteam to win later. He straight up calls Prome and marv like confirmed town. He had every right in the world to keep tunneling them (like he did on D1), yet he makes sense and instantly backs off both of them, reducing the pool of suspects to 5 (Foo, Toad, VE, Kita, Holy), where there are 2 scum and we have 2 misslynches to spare.
That's scum suicide basically, unless he can be so sure he can win in that 5-people standoff.
And I mean, by "has every right in the world to keep tunneling them", I mean in the sense of what VE is doing here attacking Prome. I.e basically ignoring the fact Prome fluently participated in sandro's last-minute lynch and trying to nitpick other stuff and coming up with complex scenarios he's scum, etc.
Scum Foo would be all over that shit with both Prome and marv. Specially with marv.
I'll just assume he's town for now until we misslynch someone. If I'm mafia what is my game plan to win this game? That'd probably mean the other member was on the sandroba train and I'm hoping that he can cruise the next 4 lynches to victory. If my mafia buddy is in the pool of Toad, Kita, VE, WoS then we're pretty much screwed since they are already under suspicion and I can only survive so long and divert so many lynches before I get punished for it. If one of you, austin, marvellosity, Promethelax, Hapa is mafia I'm pretty sure they will reveal themselves over time. Not tomorrow, maybe not even day three, but they will show it eventually. Off of long term behavior.
Precisely why I don't believe all of the sandroba lynch people are immune. Deflection at its finest.
On January 24 2014 12:01 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 11:54 gonzaw wrote:On January 24 2014 11:46 austinmcc wrote:On January 24 2014 11:41 gonzaw wrote:
There's also the fact that Foo had 6 votes on him (2nd guy had 3), and he's just calm discussing stuff with people and talking about his sandro read and shit, 10 minutes before deadline.
Weird if he's town (like...try to prevent your own lynch dude wtf), but much weirder if he's scum, UNLESS it's some preplanned scum bullshit bus where Foo takes the fall D1 for some reason or some shit. Sure, funky on both accounts, but then that doesn't get us anywhere. I don't think it's weirder for scum, scum have more control over the lynch because they can work in concert, so regardless of what the plan is, you can actually have a plan in place to hopefully not have yourself get lynched. And while prome only had 3 votes, I had been clear that I wanted prome/sandro over foolishness, and, as things were shaping up, I was going to need to vote prome to hope to have any effect on the lynch. That makes it like...6/4/1 or whatever, meaning another two swaps and everything groovy, and you could guarantee one if any of the Foolishness voters were also scum. I think....I think I should stop going this route and just stick to HEY EVERYBODY HERE'S SOME WEIRD STUFF TALK ABOUT IT. Doesn't make sense scum think they have the control of the lynch when one of their own has 6 votes against him 8 minutes before the day ends. The only plan to save himself from lynch like that....is vote shenannigans. I doubt Foo would think anybody would do vote shennanies on a townie (i.e not on sandro of course). Again, remember this stuff happened all 15-10 minutes before deadline. Anyways, I guess both of us can rationalize anything by now, so maybe this kind of discussion is pointless. ...and you could guarantee one if any of the Foolishness voters were also scum. Not if you just said the only possible 3rd scummy that makes sense is kita. Also consider how sandroba's vote went down. He comes in and slaps his vote on Promethelax when I'm at 3 votes. Why would he do this? As I explained before, mafia were very happy with the votes at that time. Town Foolishness is in the lead with 3 votes and it's looking bad for him. Second in line is town Promethelax with now 3 votes with his. No mafia is being pressured and it's looking good for them. He didn't want to vote for me since that would look like a bandwagon vote and he would be suspicious after I flipped town. After that happens he can play up that I was right about Promethelax and push for his lynch on day 2. Furthermore, let's say that somehow I didn't get lynched and Promethelax got lynched instead. Now he can just play up that I'm mafia and that I misled everyone and plan to get me lynched day 2. Sandroba's vote at the time makes perfect sense in conjunction with the line of reasoning that mafia were very happy with the way the votes were going day 1. Which correlates to the switch on sandroba being a town move (probably 100% town).
Just a little bit on Foolishness's vote analysis:
I love the assumption that he's town here despite sandroba's vote making more sense if Foolishness is scum. Amazing. (Makes slightly less sense if Prome is also scum, and the bus theory is a little convoluted but not impossible).
Of course he addresses this right after but not properly.
On January 24 2014 12:10 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 12:03 gonzaw wrote:
Foo, you need to learn how to make ad absurdum arguments.
You don't have to show that sandro's vote makes sense if you are town, you have to show that sandro's vote DOESNT make sense if you are scum. Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 05:48 Foolishness wrote:On January 24 2014 05:42 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways, I don't really see scum Foo here just shutting down basically possibilities for his scumteam to win later. He straight up calls Prome and marv like confirmed town. He had every right in the world to keep tunneling them (like he did on D1), yet he makes sense and instantly backs off both of them, reducing the pool of suspects to 5 (Foo, Toad, VE, Kita, Holy), where there are 2 scum and we have 2 misslynches to spare.
That's scum suicide basically, unless he can be so sure he can win in that 5-people standoff.
And I mean, by "has every right in the world to keep tunneling them", I mean in the sense of what VE is doing here attacking Prome. I.e basically ignoring the fact Prome fluently participated in sandro's last-minute lynch and trying to nitpick other stuff and coming up with complex scenarios he's scum, etc.
Scum Foo would be all over that shit with both Prome and marv. Specially with marv.
I'll just assume he's town for now until we misslynch someone. If I'm mafia what is my game plan to win this game? That'd probably mean the other member was on the sandroba train and I'm hoping that he can cruise the next 4 lynches to victory. If my mafia buddy is in the pool of Toad, Kita, VE, WoS then we're pretty much screwed since they are already under suspicion and I can only survive so long and divert so many lynches before I get punished for it. If one of you, austin, marvellosity, Promethelax, Hapa is mafia I'm pretty sure they will reveal themselves over time. Not tomorrow, maybe not even day three, but they will show it eventually. Off of long term behavior. Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 04:55 Foolishness wrote:On January 24 2014 04:46 gonzaw wrote:
Well, post reasons then.
Is there any reason we should consider a Foolishness/Sandroba/Promethelax scumteam? If I'm mafia with sandroba that should clear Promethelax. The other mafia would likely to be kitaman or HolyFlare or just a random straggler who was already voting for me. Promethelax has made a lot of sense in his most recent posting (not the drunk ones, though I actually can't tell for some of them lol). Also sandroba went after him. It does make sense if I'm mafia, and I said this before. But as Austin correctly pointed out who is the third mafia and why wasn't there a bigger push to save me? Sandroba's vote is a comfortable vote, if the mafia needed to save me there would have been a push to save me. They were letting the town do the dirty work for them.
If votes were mostly on mafia all that day (especially in the prome/Fool/Sand theory) then there couldn't be any big push to save him at all. I don't think I've EVER seen a big push to save ANY scum, and I've already said as such in my post-lynch vote analysis. Scum are hyper-aware of looking like shit with their votes so I find scum would more often bus than try to actively save a scumbuddy. Marv says only bad scum on TL do this but I disagree.
Anyway, would lynch today.
Probably over Prome.
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EPT
