On January 25 2014 12:14 WaveofShadow wrote: Do you agree with any of toad's case on me? Why or why not?
I think it's a valid point that you weren't sharing any strong opinions or pushing a lynch on day one. Some of the things that I've said about how Foolishness treats the lynch could probably be applied to you as well, which is why I'm not eliminating you.
I disagree with the way he paints your absence from the lynch as "convenient" as if you planned to throw down a vote decided not to post because it benefited you. I think it's more likely that you simply weren't around. I'm also concerned about the fact that he seems to only take day one events into account. It's unclear how caught up with the thread he actually is.
Could you refer me to the posts that from yourself/gonzaw that you think best summarize the case against him?
And I do agree with the thought that I was not pushing a strong lynch or had strong opinions D1, but that is often true of me in any given game. Hell look at the most recent LXIV as an example. I explained this before but my D1 is often slow it is very rare I have strong scumreads by the end of the day. (I think we discussed this too...) I'm not comfortable trying to appear confident and lying about it if I am not.
On January 25 2014 12:04 austinmcc wrote: Do you think Foolishness is the BEST lynch for today? Most likely mafia? Or just he's got a good chance of flipping, but probably better prey elsewhere?
I think it's between VE and Foolishness for me. Wave seems like he is putting enough effort into the game to warrant surviving at least one cycle longer than these two. I haven't seen a compelling argument against Toad yet. Holy was scummy null for me, but that was off a limited amount of posts. I'm mostly in wait and see mode on him.
I'm on the fence with VE right now. A lot of the things he is doing I can see from a town or mafia VE. As of right now, Foolishness is the best lynch in my opinion.
You haven't seen anything compelling against toad? What about gonzaw and my prodding of him?
Do you agree with any of toad's case on me? Why or why not?
(Goes for you too austin)
I still kinda like Toad. Liked HF. Don't care that Toad didn't read HF's filter. Wish there was more current contribution, because I think a lot of the early stuff has to be discounted given his lack of feel for the time right before lynch.
As far as his case on you, I think it starts off in a ... townie way I guess? For whatever reason, I view him as accusing you SOLELY because of your absence at lynch time, the 20 minute stuff, to be a townie-ish thing? That's a weak ass reason to vote someone over anyone and anything else in the game.
He explicitly states, with his vote on you and having said you're his favorite lynch, that he's still trying to get through your filter (vote early on, reading filter recently). I don't LOVE the idea of mafia straight up saying that they're going through the filter of a guy AFTER voting him.
So, right now I was townie on HF, and I'm now looking kinda townie on Toad. I think the majority of his early posts on you are not convincing of anything because they're based on little and he explicitly hasn't read you.
Overall, I find his case terribly unconvincing, but I think it comes from the right place.
Your reasons for finding Toad towny in this post remind me of the reasons why I find VE towny. What say you to that?
I'm not seeing the connection, tbh.
If you mean because you're townie on VE for conspiracy theories, I don't think that translates. Toad is less conspiracy theory and more...jumping straight into things, convinced, and PUSHING them.
I think, honestly, otherwise, you don't actually have good reasons to think VE is town. I think it relies very very heavily on both talking about sandroba, except that you are both saying the same FACTS. Sandroba being a lazy scum is known. Apparently sandroba not caring about pressure is KNOWN. You're not both taking in information and spitting out these same weird thoughts or anything, you're mostly just both saying "the sun is hot."
You have a minor point on VE's ragequitting, how it's honest, more likely town, but you ask whether he ragequits as scum. If you believe the answers to that question (marv said yes, dunno if anyone else chimed in), then...all that ragequit jazz is null now.
alktjghaelkteahtea. Whatever. I don't see why you think the reasoning on the two are similar. And I don't think you have good points about VE. Sry.
It's not simply because of conspiracy theories that I think VE is town, it's behavioural analysis, similar to what you did in that post on Toad. I don't find the idea of him saying that he's going through my filter to be something mafia couldn't say. Nor do I find his tunneling me based on my not being in the thread towny either, and I have no idea why you think that. Why is a shit case towny exactly? I don't think you have good points about Toad. Sry.
On January 25 2014 12:49 austinmcc wrote: It's a shit case on N1/D2, when he replaces in, in which he, at times, says things that put up big neon lights going O NOT TRUST THIS CASE IN THE LEAST*.
I have played with scumToad, and I feel like USUALLY he gets himself caught trying to do something tricky, or clever, or fun, but that was in themed games. I don't see the scumToad that I've read translating, even in a vanilla game, to O NOT TRUST MY CASE* ALSO HERE IS MY CASE.
At least to me, the toad that just blunders into replacing and is part wrong on some timings, is making accusations based on very little, whatever, is PROBABLY town.
It's the WAY he's making his case and the WAY he's tunneling you that I attribute to him being townie.
Well then that's meta-based and I tend not to give that much credence. Especially since I've only played maybe 2-3 games with Toad, one of which was LX AGES ago.
Prome's long case on VE (not gonna copy it here) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=439137¤tpage=51#1002 Some of it is fairly decent---he;s right in that VE around the lynch looked crappy and he didn't do a whole lot in the day, but then he is MASSIVLEY hypocritical with the stuff that compares the two of us:
Ultimately when gonzaw said it was VE's 'trial by fire' he has the right of it---his actions and behaviours don't always quite line up but if he doesn't show up to steer us in the right direction (one way or another) he is going to be lynched today. I for one would be very glad to talk with him to figure him out and prove things to the thread once and for all. The only way I will be voting VE today is if he gives up entirely; until then I consider him town.
I KNOW THAT THESE THINGS DON'T MAKE VE SCUM
but
You admit that VE has some stuff that, at the very least, looks objectively scummy from D1. You note that a giving up VE gets your vote, and that he can show his colors by showing up to steer things in the right direction.
Do you believe he has taken control of the wheel? Given/not given up?
He started to come back and do some stuff, which obviously means he hasn't in fact given up, but I wish he would do more than he did (which can probably be gleaned by my essentially pleading with him in-thread not to troll).
That being said what I originally posted on VE, lynch targets were likely him and me, and I wanted to make it pretty clear I did not agree with that, though I did not have any other clear targets of my own at that specific point in time. Now I do, and I feel way more comfortable voting for Foolishness and/or then Toad over VE, even if he does nothing for the rest of the day. If other people were so quick to determine his scumminess, it certainly wouldn't be the worst thing to leave him alive another day to get rid of the more...manipulative and threatening scum rather than the one that is already caught?
On January 25 2014 13:11 gonzaw wrote: Mostly because....then our super awesome last minute switch to sandro...was kind of pointless? That's kind of depressing. I really want to think about that vote switch as super awesome
Nah it still was. Last minute shenannies are fun and I'm sad I wasn't there for them.
Alright fuck it. I didn't want to release this info to thread in case scum tries their own version of last-minute shenannies (or a bad town version of it) but I won't be there for lynch tomorrow either. Once again, letting you guys know way in advance so if you all switch to me for whatever reason there won't be a damn thing I can do to defend myself. Do with this info what you will, people. Make shit cases on how I'm scum avoiding lynch (though honestly I don't see how that would fly considering it will be very easy to lynch me at deadline if people desire it), eliminate me last second or don't.
My activity will also likely be sporadic tomorrow until my usual evening time. Are there any requests/suggestions for me? you all know my reads already I believe.
On January 25 2014 13:19 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright fuck it. I didn't want to release this info to thread in case scum tries their own version of last-minute shenannies (or a bad town version of it) but I won't be there for lynch tomorrow either. Once again, letting you guys know way in advance so if you all switch to me for whatever reason there won't be a damn thing I can do to defend myself. Do with this info what you will, people. Make shit cases on how I'm scum avoiding lynch (though honestly I don't see how that would fly considering it will be very easy to lynch me at deadline if people desire it), eliminate me last second or don't.
My activity will also likely be sporadic tomorrow until my usual evening time. Are there any requests/suggestions for me? you all know my reads already I believe.
If you don't want to go through his filter, ain't no thang. But could you give quick, dirtay, thoughts on marv?
On January 21 2014 19:34 marvellosity wrote: Oh, Foolishness just dropped that and left? I was expecting more. Seems like he's just jumping on a somewhat generic opening post and going "omg scum" (although he doesn't even deign to explain this).
Nothing else was very interesting to me
##Vote: Foolishness
The right read to get from this imo. Doesn't say a lot because I would think it's easy to come by but whatever. Oh let me preface this read post by saying I have still to this day never played with scum Marv and I have no idea what it looks like. I tend to suspect him early on in most games and then he tells me I'm dumb, bad or both, we talk for a while and then we get along great. That hasn't happened in this game. Not sure what to make of that if anything.
On January 21 2014 11:22 VisceraEyes wrote: If we're talking meta, pressure won't mean anything to sandroba. He'll either play or he won't, and if he's town he'll probably find some scum. People like kita voting for him as a joke will probably not pressure him as much as you seem to think.
I'm not voting him as a joke. I think he is a great vote. We should lynch him today.
Why is he a great vote and/or lynch?
I really don't understand what your objective is here given a recent post of yours...
On January 21 2014 10:34 kitaman27 wrote: ... Do you think I'm trying to paint sandroba in a bad light using my "scummy thought process" like you mentioned or do you think that it was a random vote with little thought? ...
I can't point out all the scummy things he posts if he hasn't posted yet. If you were to vote for him then maybe he will respond and I'd have something to give you. Sounds like a win-win to me!
Can we talk about something serious? What do you think of VE?
He's the topic du-jour.
I can't call VE scummy, else he will vote for me.
I KNOW YOUR SECRETS.
I'd rather talk about marv. He suggest that the all vanilla setup makes things difficult to start off rather than attempting to generate conversation.
I never randomly generate conversation at the start of any games, and I very rarely talk about setup. You and most other players in the game should know this. Why are you suggesting it as something suspicious?
Mostly a weak idea to see if anyone wanted to take it farther than it warranted. Nothing useful really came out of it, besides maybe a few unnecessary defense posts that could possibly be looked at post flip later on in the game.
Do you feel Hapa's attempts to generate conversation are town motivated or is he more concerned with personal appearance?
Hmm. Alright. That might be reasonable. Defending marv always pro-town btw
I'm fine with Hapa atm, seems like his typical tryharding. Should be relatively obvious by the end of the day whether he's scum or not. Banking on no currently
Also the right read, but also an easy one to come by (if I can do it, it's easy lol)
On January 22 2014 04:25 austinmcc wrote: We can skip the yes/no portion I guess...
If you like Prome's explanation, I'm interested in hearing about that. If you don't, then you think Prome (1) is silly or (2) gave a false reason and/or (3) doesn't have a reason?
If you don't like Prome's explanation and it's (2) or (3), then whether there was a point of contention or not is irrelevant, except that it SHOULD be a point of contention. In my book, making up or having a very weak justification for treating in a different manner two people who do the same thing is a scummy thing (which is the mindset I find myself in at the moment, that yes, what he did was scummy because I don't buy that justification)
Just popping in between exercise and dinner, i'll go find kita's stuff a bit later.
Mostly 1, maybe a touch of 3? It's just something I don't find very surprising. I've often remarked to Prome that I find his opening to games bad/weak/scummy because he makes senseless accusations/stupid fluff/whatever.
Really (and this is to VE mostly I guess) I don't really care so much about him doing that at the start of the game, nor Hapa either, because it's what they do. The difference between here and LX is that on LX it was abundantly clear he was on the backfoot about his RNG plan, here his defence was on the frontfoot (partly *because* he didn't try to overjustify it again and again) and he simply moved on from it.
I sincerely wish I found it as interesting as you and VE seem to :p
I think I missed this insight originally on VE's LX comparison and now that I think about it he *may* be right? I mean, it doesn't necessarily answer the fact that Prome made the 'policy' post in the first place, but whatever.
Marv appears to go from suspicious on kita to...not around the time Foolishness showed up and did stuff. That was a little strange
On January 22 2014 08:42 marvellosity wrote: I did play in that game so I remember ^^. And yes it's the content. Enough for me to not want to lynch him atm.
gonzaw: Holy or Wave. Dunno about Prome, I don't have the issues other ppl seem to. Apparently I'm seeing ghosts with kita, I'll come back to that (or not) later. The Holy emotional stuff is pretty good as mentioned
Here he moves on to Holy from gonzaw maybe and me as well. This does seem typical to the marv I've seen who flip-flops reads very quickly and without bias, all the while considering things closely (but often in a hidden manner).
On January 22 2014 23:08 marvellosity wrote: Sorry Wave, what's the actual alignment conclusion (if any) about that post in the end?
Good question here because i didn't really have a good one at the time.
On January 22 2014 22:49 kitaman27 wrote: I'd much rather hear who marv is considering voting, rather than defending a player he thinks is town.
Wave looks better, for obvious reasons
Could you expand on this, even if it's brief? I didn't pick up on the obvious reason. Mine read was more based on the lack of anything wrong, rather than an abundance of anything he has done that is helpful.
Also, could you justify your Holyflare vote for me with specifics? You mention that you thought gonzaw's points were good. Is that what you're going by or is the vote mostly due to his absence from the thread?
I currently don't have a strong preference between sandroba and Holyflare and it seems like sandroba hasn't been inspired to rejoin the thread. I'll vote with you for the time being.
##Unvote ##Vote Holyflare
Wave is waffling earnestly at length as I'd expect him to. Although he's only got one scumgame, I'd very much expect him to be more direct than he has been if mafia. I've been suspicious of him in two reasonably recent games for being slow and waffly (##, LXIV) and now it just seems it's how he opens day 1 as town. So maybe not obvious after all. I just think his thought process is transparent. Like he's posted a lot of his thought process, where's his agenda?
Mainly with Holy that he seems angrier than was justified. But most of all it's the constant niggling at Hapa, especially with his last post(s) when Hapa was by a large margin the towniest guy in the thread. It's just not natural at all. Tbh I don't make a massive amount of his absence, I believe he'd be here posting as either alignment, so not that alignment indicative.
In this post marv nails me completely, and yet throughout D2 he has problems with my posting and still may think I'm scum....I suppose that may be due to the somewhat odd-considered nature of my Prome/VE reads posts rather than me being tentative but I wonder if he considered me scummy before that point because as far as I knwo my play didn't change throughout all of D1 so the read he had here should have held.
On January 23 2014 02:55 marvellosity wrote: yuh huh. you've been giving me the jeebies all game. but you're too active to lynch today in the end.
I commented on this one earlier on somewhere but this is one of those 'mind meld' moments Marv was talking about where I felt really good about him.
Ok so here are the posts about me post0lynch and they actually show a little of where he got to where he is now on me:
On January 23 2014 08:07 marvellosity wrote: lots of interesting things with this lynch, VE is one
Fool/kita/Prome/WoS are others for various reasons. I'll probably chat at length about it tomorrow.
On January 24 2014 00:43 marvellosity wrote: also Wave your posts post-lynch have been shocking. General wishy washy fingerpointing without actually fingerpointing. "there's gonna be a scum on the sandroba wagon" ... "cos feels bro". Can't actually tell what you're trying to achieve at all.
Like...the 'wishywashy' thing kind of bothers me because he should know that's how I am, but I guess I hit his limit to wishywashiness or something? Maybe marv himself should answer that.
I was just about to post how marv made a large 'suspicion' post on kita post lynch and then never came back to it, but here:
On January 25 2014 02:29 marvellosity wrote: Basically being petulant :p kita is more interesting, if Wave has things to do first then that'll probably line up with when I get around to looking at kita again. Although I kinda want to wait until kita has done his latest round of posting.
Pretty consistent, though I want to see where he is on kita now, especially since kita is one of the 'Foolishness Four.'
Conclusion: Typical marv imo. Town. Asks the right questions, gets to the bottom of stuff, good suspicion, all around townie stuff. I still have that little voice that says 'BUT WHAT IF?!' but for some reason this game I've been able to suppress it where marv is concerned.
On January 25 2014 13:59 gonzaw wrote: I still can't believe VE spends 5 hours making porkchops. At least 5 hours from where he heats up the oil until he's done (he could have spent more time before defrosting them, etc). Unless you are at a charity or wedding making porkchops for 100 people, I don't see that happening? It's insane. Heating up oil and cooking 2-3 porkchops takes 40 minutes at most to me, not 5 fricking hours.
Maybe he's just fucking with us? Remember his excuse for not being around deadline is that he was with the porkchops too. Maybe he'll say he's still cooking those porkchops now?
lol I read that and I wtfed too, but I personally hate judging people on RL shit. (I could be biased because I know I never lie about where/when I go or why I'm away and as you can see, I get retarded suspicion for it a lot.) Yes it's a viable way of getting out of suspicion by lying, but I find more often than not people do tell the truth.
On January 25 2014 13:59 gonzaw wrote: I still can't believe VE spends 5 hours making porkchops. At least 5 hours from where he heats up the oil until he's done (he could have spent more time before defrosting them, etc). Unless you are at a charity or wedding making porkchops for 100 people, I don't see that happening? It's insane. Heating up oil and cooking 2-3 porkchops takes 40 minutes at most to me, not 5 fricking hours.
Maybe he's just fucking with us? Remember his excuse for not being around deadline is that he was with the porkchops too. Maybe he'll say he's still cooking those porkchops now?
lol I read that and I wtfed too, but I personally hate judging people on RL shit. (I could be biased because I know I never lie about where/when I go or why I'm away and as you can see, I get retarded suspicion for it a lot.) Yes it's a viable way of getting out of suspicion by lying, but I find more often than not people do tell the truth.
That's why I backed out of it, because I didn't want to start a shitstorm trying to figure out the average cooking time of porkchops and discussing the consistency of oil or whatever shit. But...there is suspension of disbelief, and there is "wtf is that true?" territory.
Like, what if he had told us he was cooking the porkchops ever since he FoSed Prome? Would you believe him then? It's too wtf to ignore. The problem is that most of VE's "problems" with the lynch, thread, etc back on D1 hinge on this excuse of his. His unfounded vote on Holy then Foolishness, his behaviour from then until the deadline, etc. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't give a shit how much time he spends cooking food, but if his entire alignment hinges on that....well then you have to ask yourself "Is what this guy is telling true or possible?".
I had a thought that I could start some sort of fake defense about how I know his RL can be difficult sometimes so that he'd really feel like shit if he were scum if I defended him based on that, but I'd probably feel like shit myself even faking that lol.
Ultimately I guess we see how he behaves around this lynch. I'm personally still ok to give him another day but I completely understand how others don't want to. I think on the 'objectively scummy' scale though there are scummier people. It's almost like we're back to D1 and trying to decide to lynch a lurker vs trying to find active scum. Although that actually did turn out in our favour on this particular D1.
On January 25 2014 13:53 austinmcc wrote: HAHA I LIED DON'T LYNCH ME THOUGH I'M STILL AWAKE AND YOUR THOUGHTS HAVE PLEASED ME.
YOU MAY STILL BE THE MILKSHAKE OF MY DESPAIR, BUT I AM LACTOSE TOLERANT
lol you're lucky that I don't even consider that a bait because I was doing that shit anyway, otherwise I might be very cross with you right now.
I don't think I ever asked people questions just as bait, or ... I probably have, but not at all in the way you seem to mean? No. Even the worst of my stupid questions I ask 90+% of the time because I really want to see the answers.
Ok a few thigns: VE wtf was that vote on me? I don;t even understand your reasoning for it. Because I think you're town and no one else does? Is that it?
As far as marv;s argument, the problem is not only would you be comparing mafia to town mindset, you also have to remember that VE and I are two different people. My motivation has been ridiculously on this game not only because I'm not and want to win, but because of the game itself. Marv you remember me asking you pre-game if I should even play in this game? Part of my motivation this game is to show myself (and others) that I deserve to be in here. In any other game I highly doubt I would be spending such a great deal of the free time I barely have to post in massive bursts. VE may not be similarly motivated as town (or obviously as scum).
Now as for Foolishness, call me dumb but I'm starting to worry about how quickly it's being picked up. Especially by people like Toad. And even then if I'm right and Foolishness truly is mafia, is everybody going to be bamboozled by him again when he comes back with an hour to go and posts a flashy essay?
On January 26 2014 04:24 WaveofShadow wrote: Ok a few thigns: VE wtf was that vote on me? I don;t even understand your reasoning for it. Because I think you're town and no one else does? Is that it?
As far as marv;s argument, the problem is not only would you be comparing mafia to town mindset, you also have to remember that VE and I are two different people. My motivation has been ridiculously on this game not only because I'm not and want to win, but because of the game itself. Marv you remember me asking you pre-game if I should even play in this game? Part of my motivation this game is to show myself (and others) that I deserve to be in here. In any other game I highly doubt I would be spending such a great deal of the free time I barely have to post in massive bursts. VE may not be similarly motivated as town (or obviously as scum).
Now as for Foolishness, call me dumb but I'm starting to worry about how quickly it's being picked up. Especially by people like Toad. And even then if I'm right and Foolishness truly is mafia, is everybody going to be bamboozled by him again when he comes back with an hour to go and posts a flashy essay?
It was that and the fact that Hapa suspected you and died - but gonzaw pointed out that he posted his suspicion AFTER the scum had made their shot, so it comes back to the "he's the only one who's right about me" which is NOT a strong enough point to lynch imo.
It'd be pretty ballsy (if I'm right about you) as scum to be the only one. Hapa's suspicion is a stronger point if anything and I'll grant you that, but surprisingly nobody brought it up. And his case on me was vastly different than anyone else's I believe---I think it actually wasn't terrible.
So, is Toad's voteswitch authentic or is he trying to jump off a losing train early and trying to gain some towncred on a bus?
EPT
O NOT TRUST THIS CASE IN THE LEAST*.
