EPTOn December 24 2013 11:58 Promethelax wrote:
I don't think enough attention is being paid to my filter: town should have reread my filter at least more than the zero times it got read. The night one kill was the only kill in a game with Marv, sandroba, Austin, VE, mig, SS and others; someone should have looked at why that player was shot and no one did on the entire game. Even more so when half my reads had flipped accurately. You guys should have given some credence to my town reads (soniv, you particularly ignored very good reasons for jayb to be town which caused an unnecessary tunnel) and my scum reads (your JL shots made me happy at least).
This game as a whole was pretty good. Neither team played very well bit they both played poorly together, which I liked.
Wave, you and your team did a damn good job of hosting this game. I know how crazy a game of this size can be so I'm pleased at how well you all did.
Town: you sucked. Scum: you sucked worse. Everyone: I had a good time playing and a good time obsing. Thanks for playing! Those of you who didn't play: fuck you for not playing! Geript and Odin I forgive you both because you have both shown interest in making things better in the future.
I don't think enough attention is being paid to my filter: town should have reread my filter at least more than the zero times it got read. The night one kill was the only kill in a game with Marv, sandroba, Austin, VE, mig, SS and others; someone should have looked at why that player was shot and no one did on the entire game. Even more so when half my reads had flipped accurately. You guys should have given some credence to my town reads (soniv, you particularly ignored very good reasons for jayb to be town which caused an unnecessary tunnel) and my scum reads (your JL shots made me happy at least).
This game as a whole was pretty good. Neither team played very well bit they both played poorly together, which I liked.
Wave, you and your team did a damn good job of hosting this game. I know how crazy a game of this size can be so I'm pleased at how well you all did.
Town: you sucked. Scum: you sucked worse. Everyone: I had a good time playing and a good time obsing. Thanks for playing! Those of you who didn't play: fuck you for not playing! Geript and Odin I forgive you both because you have both shown interest in making things better in the future.
Yeah maybe everyone sucked. Definitely you played the best town game by far. This doesn't mean however just because town didn't instantly push all your reads we are all completely incompetent.
1) I read your filter not once but several times and I did consider it for my reads. That's why I was ok with the JL shooting and let my scumread on Rean go for example.
2) You give your reads too much credit for your death. Obviously there were other players that could be considered important nightkills but all those players had just badly mislynched a townie and nobody really had the town behind them anymore. Also you came into this thread like a madman throwing cases left and right. Even if your reads weren't almost 100% correct you had the influence and the drive to get the town on track like noone else and were a top priority nightkill in my opinion. Just because scum killed you town cannot conclude that all your reads were right.
3) Your reads were mostly reads on lurkers. That's cool because everyone had a hard time figuring them out but it's not like the game was solved by your reads or anything because you didn't catch the stronger scum players. Who knows how badly you would have fucked up had scum let you live longer than one nightphase.
Anyways I really don't want to lessen your triumph in any way. Your short reign in the thread was easily the most impressive townplay I have seen thus far but hey, give town some credit. Apart from Risens martyring death we lynched scum back to back to back from Day 2 on and we would have even lynched scum on Day 2 if geript didn't decide to fuck things up.
That's also why I don't think the setup was town favored in any way. Had scum played a little better and not abandoned all teamwork + had they chosen wiser regarding their role picks this game could have gone really really badly for town and it was still kind of close.
On December 24 2013 17:25 Roffles wrote:
Ended up taking a modkill to stop playing this toxic game. I think somewhere around Day 2, half the thread basically had their heads up their asses. Drop the egos, play the game.
Plus when you have people yelling to have every other person modkilled, it's ridiculous as well. Let the hosts determine who gets modkilled instead of whining for a "technical" win. Really takes away from the entire point of the game.
Ended up taking a modkill to stop playing this toxic game. I think somewhere around Day 2, half the thread basically had their heads up their asses. Drop the egos, play the game.
Plus when you have people yelling to have every other person modkilled, it's ridiculous as well. Let the hosts determine who gets modkilled instead of whining for a "technical" win. Really takes away from the entire point of the game.
Your playstyle was one of the main reasons why the atmosphere was that toxic to begin with. The people who just openly refused to even play this game and got themselves modkilled were the most frustrating thing by far.
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 24 2013 13:08 WaveofShadow wrote:
Alright let's see stuff to mention:
Champion picks:
I was pretty fascinated overall with the roles people considered strong or weak. Tryndamere for example was a huge point of contention in the early game because people just sort of assumed that he'd be dealing massive AoE damage to everybody constantly when in reality the damage was miniscule and would be fairly easily trackable. I'm well aware people weren't aware of numbers or how the balancing was done exactly, and there were obfuscating factors (ie 2nd ability) but many people made a lot of early and very correct inferences while others didn't bother and just went with the bare minimum of information they were given.
This brings me to my second point on this topic---whether or not you guys were aware, this game was made to encourage role speculation early on. Again there was a lot of stuff missing but there were clues, and even for the people who didn't/don't play LoL a lot of that info was filled in for you real early by others (and there's Google
). It was probably possible to figure earlier on that each champion had a regular ability and an ultimate, for example. Even if you didn't want to speculate on roles, however, the fact that the revealed champion role info gave you less than 50% of the total info meant that there are certainly other possibilities in the game than those revealed. Some people considered this (where the massclaim was concerned, for example) but completely ignored it when it came to champion selection, instead simply choosing those champions whose revealed abilities seemed pretty decent, when in fact I would argue many of the champion that didn't get chosen or even mentioned could have been way more OP. (And yet two people also vied for Kha'zix, who had NOTHING revealed about his role!) Game strategy purists may argue that it's better to go with what you know and can see than take a risk on something else, but I made this game to be fun, and sometimes taking a risk offers a decent payoff. I certainly didn't expect only 1/3 of the total champions to be considered due to my obfuscation of info---so in the end whether that is my fault in considering what players would find important and/or useful I guess you guys can be the judges of that. The game certainly would have gone much faster and night actions would have been WAY more insane if 1/3 of the playerbase wasn't vanilla.
The Inventor: Won't say much about this because I think it's been said. Koshi was patient with me/the other hosts (but mostly me) at times, and not at others, especially when he was being called terrible by the thread when we really DID change shit up on him. It was a really tough call to make on a lot of these because oftentimes players are only considering what crazy OP shit they can do flat-out break and win the game, and obviously I was not willing to let that happen. This is probably ultimately my mistake as kita mentioned---we essentially assumed the role would have been banned out as scum so we didn't bother writing a lot of the original specfics into the role I had in mind (originally he would have had a list of items to choose from). This meant I had to play a hands-on role to prevent my game from being broken---some could call this bastard hosting I suppose so lesson learned---- but in the end since scum didn't even bother dealing with him most of the time and we couldn't just keep wrecking everything he did for balance purposes eventually the stronger inventions started to win out. I'll blame myself partly for that and partly scum for ignoring what is often the strongest town role in any PYP game for so long.
Balance: right at the outset I assumed scum would lose considering how drafting and picks went. Coordination of a scumteam in PYP games is paramount and it basically didn't happen. A lot of roles I would have figured would e great grabs for scum weren't even talked about or considered. As the modkills went out though, scum morale was boosted and SS and Mocsta really got things going and played a very strong game. I think there was a way too much focus on bussing of teammates in this game however, especially since for 3/4 of the game town weren't even focused on hunting scum or bothering with towncred, they simply fucked around with role speculation and mechanics (which were important in this game obviously, but should never be brought to the forefront ahead of basic scumhunting, as sandroba eventually showed). If I had to run this again I'm not sure how much I would change. We were actually considering a scum 'factional roleblock' at one point simply because something like 20 estimated blue roles (if scum didn't manage to snag a RB role) meant any scumteam would be quickly overwhelmed. I would gladly accept suggestions if people thought there were problems with balance here---overall I'd say it's really tough to say if the game is balanced or not, not only because of all the modkilling, but because the role synergy possibilities and possible KP has drastic potential to swing the game one way or the other.
As far as a PYP LoL 2 as some people mentioned----this game does have the potential to be played again, hell probably multiple times considering the unused roles and easy possibility of creation of new ones. If we were worried about it being easier for town since the mechanics would be largely know we could always throw in some curveballs. The more pressing point is the behaviour and sheer intervention that was forced on me in this game really turned me off of hosting any future games. I won't rant too long about this because I think people know how I feel, but I suppose when people ragequit my game because they're not haivng fun, I can't help but take it personally. Same with a large percentage of the playerbase replacing out. I'm not sure for many of those people if the game wasn't want they wanted or expected, they though it sucked, it was the players they were forced to play with or a combination of all three, but since this game had the largest number of modkills/replacement I can think of in recent times, again I can't help but think something about my game must have been a factor. I'm glad there were people who enjoyed themselves despite the atmosphere at times and the modkillings, and appreciate all those who kept their cool and played it out, even under adversity. To sum this up, maybe my expectations of this game or of the people in it were a little too high? I don't know. In any case the amount of stress and upset it caused me at times made me feel like it wasn't worth the amount of time I spent on it. Behaviour and playstyle stuff has been discussed to death in other threads so I'll only talk about me. As far as I can tell, I won't want to be hosting/creating any other games for TL because I'll always have grand designs and I'll always be upset if they don't live up to my expectations.
If people were truly interested in a LoL 2, I'd basically have to ensure ahead of time that the people playing it would be those who specifically requested it and would enjoy it and I doubt there is any way to guarantee that. Even then it would be a very long time before it makes it to the forefront of the queue---I just don' see it happening.
I welcome any further discussion or questions.
Alright let's see stuff to mention:
Champion picks:
I was pretty fascinated overall with the roles people considered strong or weak. Tryndamere for example was a huge point of contention in the early game because people just sort of assumed that he'd be dealing massive AoE damage to everybody constantly when in reality the damage was miniscule and would be fairly easily trackable. I'm well aware people weren't aware of numbers or how the balancing was done exactly, and there were obfuscating factors (ie 2nd ability) but many people made a lot of early and very correct inferences while others didn't bother and just went with the bare minimum of information they were given.
This brings me to my second point on this topic---whether or not you guys were aware, this game was made to encourage role speculation early on. Again there was a lot of stuff missing but there were clues, and even for the people who didn't/don't play LoL a lot of that info was filled in for you real early by others (and there's Google
). It was probably possible to figure earlier on that each champion had a regular ability and an ultimate, for example. Even if you didn't want to speculate on roles, however, the fact that the revealed champion role info gave you less than 50% of the total info meant that there are certainly other possibilities in the game than those revealed. Some people considered this (where the massclaim was concerned, for example) but completely ignored it when it came to champion selection, instead simply choosing those champions whose revealed abilities seemed pretty decent, when in fact I would argue many of the champion that didn't get chosen or even mentioned could have been way more OP. (And yet two people also vied for Kha'zix, who had NOTHING revealed about his role!) Game strategy purists may argue that it's better to go with what you know and can see than take a risk on something else, but I made this game to be fun, and sometimes taking a risk offers a decent payoff. I certainly didn't expect only 1/3 of the total champions to be considered due to my obfuscation of info---so in the end whether that is my fault in considering what players would find important and/or useful I guess you guys can be the judges of that. The game certainly would have gone much faster and night actions would have been WAY more insane if 1/3 of the playerbase wasn't vanilla.The Inventor: Won't say much about this because I think it's been said. Koshi was patient with me/the other hosts (but mostly me) at times, and not at others, especially when he was being called terrible by the thread when we really DID change shit up on him. It was a really tough call to make on a lot of these because oftentimes players are only considering what crazy OP shit they can do flat-out break and win the game, and obviously I was not willing to let that happen. This is probably ultimately my mistake as kita mentioned---we essentially assumed the role would have been banned out as scum so we didn't bother writing a lot of the original specfics into the role I had in mind (originally he would have had a list of items to choose from). This meant I had to play a hands-on role to prevent my game from being broken---some could call this bastard hosting I suppose so lesson learned---- but in the end since scum didn't even bother dealing with him most of the time and we couldn't just keep wrecking everything he did for balance purposes eventually the stronger inventions started to win out. I'll blame myself partly for that and partly scum for ignoring what is often the strongest town role in any PYP game for so long.
Balance: right at the outset I assumed scum would lose considering how drafting and picks went. Coordination of a scumteam in PYP games is paramount and it basically didn't happen. A lot of roles I would have figured would e great grabs for scum weren't even talked about or considered. As the modkills went out though, scum morale was boosted and SS and Mocsta really got things going and played a very strong game. I think there was a way too much focus on bussing of teammates in this game however, especially since for 3/4 of the game town weren't even focused on hunting scum or bothering with towncred, they simply fucked around with role speculation and mechanics (which were important in this game obviously, but should never be brought to the forefront ahead of basic scumhunting, as sandroba eventually showed). If I had to run this again I'm not sure how much I would change. We were actually considering a scum 'factional roleblock' at one point simply because something like 20 estimated blue roles (if scum didn't manage to snag a RB role) meant any scumteam would be quickly overwhelmed. I would gladly accept suggestions if people thought there were problems with balance here---overall I'd say it's really tough to say if the game is balanced or not, not only because of all the modkilling, but because the role synergy possibilities and possible KP has drastic potential to swing the game one way or the other.
As far as a PYP LoL 2 as some people mentioned----this game does have the potential to be played again, hell probably multiple times considering the unused roles and easy possibility of creation of new ones. If we were worried about it being easier for town since the mechanics would be largely know we could always throw in some curveballs. The more pressing point is the behaviour and sheer intervention that was forced on me in this game really turned me off of hosting any future games. I won't rant too long about this because I think people know how I feel, but I suppose when people ragequit my game because they're not haivng fun, I can't help but take it personally. Same with a large percentage of the playerbase replacing out. I'm not sure for many of those people if the game wasn't want they wanted or expected, they though it sucked, it was the players they were forced to play with or a combination of all three, but since this game had the largest number of modkills/replacement I can think of in recent times, again I can't help but think something about my game must have been a factor. I'm glad there were people who enjoyed themselves despite the atmosphere at times and the modkillings, and appreciate all those who kept their cool and played it out, even under adversity. To sum this up, maybe my expectations of this game or of the people in it were a little too high? I don't know. In any case the amount of stress and upset it caused me at times made me feel like it wasn't worth the amount of time I spent on it. Behaviour and playstyle stuff has been discussed to death in other threads so I'll only talk about me. As far as I can tell, I won't want to be hosting/creating any other games for TL because I'll always have grand designs and I'll always be upset if they don't live up to my expectations.
If people were truly interested in a LoL 2, I'd basically have to ensure ahead of time that the people playing it would be those who specifically requested it and would enjoy it and I doubt there is any way to guarantee that. Even then it would be a very long time before it makes it to the forefront of the queue---I just don' see it happening.
I welcome any further discussion or questions.
Well as you said. Nobody could know what hidden abilities all those champions had at any point in time. What's the point in speculating about that apart from derailing the thread? You even said yourself that you changed some roles in a way that they don't even closely resemble their LoL counterpart.
Otherwise your analysis is pretty much on point I think although I don't understand why you give Sandro credit for basic scumhunting when he basically lynched Mocsta almost solely on mechanics while hilariously also being wrong about that (not to say he wasn't the best townie in regards of lategame scumhunting but seriously?).
Your setup has still much potential and all the hard work shouldn't go to waste. Would be nice if there was another game like this sometime in the future and if you don't want to host anymore then that is sad.
