TL Mafia LXII: TL Noir - Page 11

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 13:03 GMT

#2784

On September 24 2013 21:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Oh, considering the timeframe Pandain posted in this is a good point. I was curious because when i read the PC post i had same thoughts than he posted. Only wtf moment was BH getting killed.

pc post?

Btw can't tell if u agree or disagree

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:13 GMT

#2788

Rayn,

I'm home and here. Im fully caught up on the thread in a "thread sentiment" type of way. But not caught up on all on what it means to me.

Direct me.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:23 GMT

#2792

On September 24 2013 22:18 Zaragon wrote:

Show nested quote +

At first I was thinking, I liked Pandain's night phase play, and the quick response to the flips could be adrenaline over a clear feeling that the vigi shot was going wrong. But as I'm thinking about these points... I was feeling the same way I thought Pandain was feeling about people aiming the VA shot, and I don't see how he shifted gears that fast as town and made that post

Pls help me out here.

quick response to the flips could be adrenaline over a clear feeling that the vigi shot was going wrong

I'm not even sure what this means or infers... My initial reaction was.. wtf.. why is blazinghand shot?
Then Waveofshadow makes a lot of sense (solid town read to a lot of ppl, but minor thread presence, so unlikely to be medic protected) -> Safe.
BH shot to me is either (bluesnipe OR safe shot on someone scum respect)
Which raises a separate questoin... who would be scared of BH that is in this game? (answer is no one

) .. so im leaning towards blue snipe attempt

Point being; Pandain is meant to be a slow, methodical poster that has a high content:post ratio.... This juxtaposes against the word "adrenalin".. I dont even know how you could entertain this notion in the first place.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:24 GMT

#2793

On September 24 2013 23:21 strongandbig wrote:

Show nested quote +

Are you inferring that you have read through the whole game to decipher whether I have been active?
Cos if so, I expect immediately a bunch of reads; as opposed to posting pre-game talk.

Heres a tip.. the game starts on page 24.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:30 GMT

#2795

On September 24 2013 23:19 strongandbig wrote:

Show nested quote +

Marv y u not ded?

Marv what's the context of this post? Why does it make yammo town? Can someone explain for me what the deal was with sentinel at the time?

Also Marv why haven't you been making arguments for why anyone is scum? You've been making plenty of arguments about why other people's arguments are bad...

Actually, I guess you did give real arguments in one or two posts about why ray was maybe scum but you hedged pretty hard... That seems townie. Is that a town tell for you? I don't think so, because as soon as you figured it out you would do it as scum too...

My read on marv is based on the ray outcome. (Granted I actually haven't re-read the exchange yet, so am hapy to be disputed by a fresh perspective).

I made a "case" on ray first. Marvs response was to discredit my case as a pittance, and then produce his own case on Ray in addition to providing further analysis. The point is that Marv tried to one-up me; and I treat that as a heuristic for town pride/emotional investment with marv.

I will admit freely that prior that occurrence, he was leaning scum for me. [Rayn, you asked why I had a town read on marv before.. the above is why]

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:32 GMT

#2799

On September 24 2013 23:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't know what you want me to do? I don't understand. I want to hear Sentinel's reads because i think he is scum and i have no idea what he is doing if he's not. I am voting for him. I think your case on Pandain is good and i want to hear more from him. I want to hear more from Mattchew because he has done jack shit this game. I am okay with Zaragon atm (his answers to me). I would love to hear some reads from him that are not "assuming FirmTofu is scum..." because i still think that's bullshit way to present reads, associating one's own reads to an unflipped players alignment. FT could also talk about something that's not Zaragon. There is where i am atm.

OK, i was trying to do what Koshi said we were doing before (but clearly not)

buddying.. i.e. i want you to be my new DP. lets work together.

In short, I was saying, is there someone you want me to look into and provide thoughts.

P.S. my issue with sentinel as scum boils now to my last night post.. "too scummy to be scum".. do you think a guy that has been called scum by several people would CONTINUE to do the same shit that landed him on heat in the first place - if scum?

I'm pretty sure, a scummer would have changed up the gameplay by now (this all considers that sentinel had enough pressure to warrant being threatended... which I am actaully not sure is the case??)

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:33 GMT

#2801

On September 24 2013 23:30 strongandbig wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 22 2013 22:41 Mocsta wrote:

On September 22 2013 22:20 yamato77 wrote:

On September 22 2013 18:42 FirmTofu wrote:
As much as I dislike DP's play this game, DP's response to me is making me warm up to him. It is reminiscent of classic town play.

Townies know they are town. Therefore, when people call them scum, they instinctively believe the accuser is "bad" or scum. After all, they are town and they know that the accuser is wrong. This knowledge makes them act in anger and frustration when defending themselves.

Classic thought process: "How could this asshole accuse me? I'm town! I've been playing super pro-town all game and this guy is saying I'm scum? He must be a terrible player or scum."

While DP's anger toward me could be manufactured, it feels rather genuine.

Scum DP is actually more likely to only argue the entire game than town DP is. Honestly, DP refusing to do anything OMGUS people the whole game is not a point in his favor, it is a point against. You should know better, because in Persona, he was actually somewhat useful despite there being arguments in the game.

Unfortunately, if DP is mafia, you're probably just bad. This whole situation between you and DP is entirely too convoluted for two scum to have constructed. And yes, I am calling DP mafia, for the record. He can very well play this game properly and not like a butthurt noob.

On September 22 2013 21:13 DarthPunk wrote:

On September 22 2013 21:09 WaveofShadow wrote:

On September 22 2013 21:02 DarthPunk wrote:

On September 22 2013 20:42 WaveofShadow wrote:
Hey DP, I don't know if this is your first fucking rodeo or something, but hey guess what?
People accuse each other of shit all the time! Both stupidly and intelligently alike! Welcome to mafia!

My suggestions is calm your tits and play the game without resorting to the angry tone, again either fabricated or real. Scaring FT away doesn't do a whole lot for us but it certainly makes it easier to accuse him of being scum which appears to be what you want?

Now if you please, have a look at my earlier post for me and if you have any thoughts on the matter I'd like to hear them.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423071&currentpage=51#1005

I've played the same way for a long time. I am not changing just because you say so.

See, but that's where I don't believe you. I've played games before with you in which you were not this constantly incensed. I'll go have a look at those now, actually, because it may in fact be that as you say, you only get this way when people accuse you of being scum. That's pretty hilarious actually if true especially considering you say you're 'not meta-able.'

I do it as scum too. So no. not meta-able. Also I'm playing league. I will post when i feel like it.

Pro-tip: Don't listen to a player's opinion of their own meta. Or take "I do this as scum/town, too!" as a valid excuse for legitimately scummy play. Wave has picked up on the same thing that I've picked up on, and it makes me feel very good about this read. I rescind my early scum read on Wave.

On September 22 2013 20:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:
FirmTofu why is your play completely different from Desert?

As in, he's actually posting? This line of questioning goes nowhere, because in recent memory, FT has simply not posted and been lynched for it. As town. Questioning the difference is completely pointless. Something is off with Rayn this game. His questions are generally stupid, but he's a special kind of useless so far and it's begun to seriously bother me.

RE: VisceraEyes

Still pretty scummy and useless. Can be scummy and useless as town. Not necessarily a good lynch. His alignment will be clearer the longer the game goes on.

RE: Mocsta

Has toned down his play to some extent but his early game still bothers me. His outright refusal to respond to me is ridiculous and a pathetic excuse to not face your accuser. I think he doesn't want to argue with me because he knows I can catch him. If Mocsta was town, I would have expected a far more vehement response to my accusations than "blahblah I didn't even read Yamato's posts except for the part where he called me mafia. Totes not true."

On September 22 2013 09:57 Chairman Ray wrote:
Hey everyone, this is my first post here. Sorry I haven't been around since the start since I was pretty busy, but I'm definitely going to dedicate a few hours today and tomorrow doing my best to contribute.

This is my third game of forum mafia. I have played real time mafia as well. Even though I'm a lot less experienced than most people here, I'll pull my weight just fine and I don't expect any newbie lenience.

Last game I learned that it's quite difficult to get strong reads on people during the day. Most my reads at the start were quite off. A lot of town said scummy things, and a lot of scum were quite pro town. However during the final hour when thing started being messy, there were strong reads everywhere. So this game I will try to focus on making things very difficult for scum during the last hour. If a town ends up being lynched day 1, I want as much information to come out of it as possible.

So feel free to ask me anything and I will try to be as transparent as possible. If I see something fishy, I will definitely try to flush you out as well.

This dude is now the best lynch in the game, for quite obvious reasons.

##Vote: Chairman Ray

Btw.. this type of post is I believe, why yamato was nailed as scum by Ver in Sicilian.

Starts off with.. DP is scum.. yet ends up with a vote on Chairman.

Well done Noob-mato77

Mocsta do you still think Yamato is scum? What changed your mind?

Nope.
The arrogance changed my mind. I think thats a pretty authentic emotion and one impossible for yamato to fake with his gameplay style.

I think he genuinely thought I was scum.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:36 GMT

#2802

marv.

thoughts on my find with pandain.

Realistic indicator?

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:43 GMT

#2804

@Umasi
Where are you bbygrl?

I know you posting in the newbie thread !!

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:46 GMT

#2806

Marv,

I know you have already alluded to this somewhere. But can you re-confirm for me, the outcome of a FT lynch.

On September 23 2013 11:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Here's a votecount for you cats

Chairman Ray (6): yamato77, ~~Koshi~~, ~~Mocsta~~, kushm4sta, marvellosity, raynpelikoneet, [UoN]Sentinel, geript

FirmTofu (5): Koshi, justanothertownie, WaveofShadow, Mocsta, Chairman Ray

[b][blue]

If FT is scum, i get how Sent/Geript look scum.
But if FT is town, whats the problem?

Seems like a 50/50 gamble to me.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:50 GMT

#2809

On September 24 2013 23:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think "too scummy to be scum" is a stupid heuristic that should never be used and i don't believe in it. I believe in what people post and does it make sense from town/scum pov. Sentinel is making very little sense, and while he has posted a good amount, i don't feel like he is trying to find scum.

I would like you to look into Mattchew and what he has actually done in this game. Also i would like you to give updated thoughts on FT and one player of your choosing.

Regarding sentinel. I agree with what you have said. But you only commented on "too scummy to be scum", what about the 'changing up style if under heat?'.
I just find, town dont normally give a fuck in those situations cos they expect everyone else to realise they are town.

I will look into mattchew (to be honest, my town lean on him was founded on marv having a town lean) some of his timings were very suspect to me.. so yes will look now.

As for a second person... I am going to pass: too many people; not enough focus.
I really think lynch should be focused on pandain/sentinel; perhaps LoneMeow.

I still dont buy the martyr; I have re-read it a few times, and the vote doesnt make sense and doesn't feel organic. + he has done sweet fuck all since the martyr. I know activity isnt an indicator in isolation. But considering the event, I woudl have really expected him to step it up.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:54 GMT

#2811

On September 24 2013 23:49 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

If FT is town, it just means the wagons meant little and scum were probably dispersed. If he's mafia then obviously mafia needed to try to save him.

So we reach a gamble then. Whats more important.

Try our best to lynch scum, and possibly fail.
Or
policy lynch FT and receive this information.

Considering the people involved in the voting I think we missed the boat on FT.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 14:59 GMT

#2813

On September 24 2013 23:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
What the hell Mocsta. FT is one of the key people to discuss atm..

Maybe, like if you want to discuss him. I won't stop you at all.

From my perpsective, we are 4 townies down (luckily only 1 blue.. which arguably was a good outcome.. newbie with parity in a game with framer/GF = mindfucks).

Hence, I'm looking at best chance to ensure a scum lynch this cycle.
I can say with my heart on sleeve, yes... FT can flip scum.. but the *can* is not confident; and Im not sure how much talking about it, will resolve that. Hes just a selfish*cunt* of a player. I actually really hate FT, and might consider not joining games with him again. [If town.. I just know post-game he will complain about how obvious town he was, and everyone is stupid]

Im just saying, I think ppl like pandain and sentinel and lonemeow are a much higher percentage to get that first red blood. Therefore, it makes sense to narrow/focus the towns brain trust on that subset of players.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 15:22 GMT

#2832

On September 25 2013 00:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Mocsta, i would really like you to explain this:

At the end of D1 you voted for FirmTofu.
On N1 i see no posts from you that make me think your scumread on him has weakened.
Then, at the end of N1 you say this:

Show nested quote +

Now you are bringing up vote analysis from D1 and want marv to discuss them, yet you are unwilling to to discuss FT "because he is not most likely to flip mafia" according to you.

What has changed? What in FT's posting has ACTUALLY made you think he is town? And why do you want to discuss things straightly related to his alignment but you are unwilling to discuss FT himself?

I dont get the problem, we are talking about two isolated events.

(1) = FT filter
(2) = Read outcomes from a FT flip

What I wrote end of Night1 *is* my take on FT. Im not going to stop anyone else talking about him, because, im not a god of mafia and clearly can be wrong. Im saying, hes not my focus at all.. a fuck face like that. i coul read his filter 10 times and still not be certain if i want to lynch him.

So to answer your questions
(1) Indicators for town?
- Zen-like feeling in posts. Even though its obviously refined/constructed.. its a different type.

- The way he kept stopping himself from reading the thread, by engaging in live convo BUT still ensured he read the thread.
*This mimics my play replacing into "the game". I personally think scum replace into the game by either, waiting to read the whole thread and then making an impact.. or forgoing reading the thread all together and just start from the live point (a la DP in personality 2) Sorry.. personal heuristic, whether right or wrong.

- Has the guy actually pushed a scum agenda? Yes he is posting as if hes in the town leadership circle (e.g. submitting his own vig list).. but, hes not getting traction, and does it actually read as deceitful?

(2)Why do I want to discuss things related to his alignment but not willing to discuss him.
I believe this is answered by the above.

The q to marv, was curiosity about the information we could gain. I was trying to ascertain whether the best course of action was for an information lynch; or scum lynch. (Obviously bonus points if info lynch gives a scum lynch).

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 15:44 GMT

#2849

On September 25 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:

Show nested quote +

(1) My problem is your explanation does not really make sense to me because your interactions towards FT on N1 do not support what you are saying about the "zen-posting". I don't see you thinking "okay, fuck, this guy could be town aswell" from your posts towards FT on N1. Also why do you bring up replacing, FT has been in the game for the whole time, he has not replaced in.

(2) So what's the point of discussing things related to his alignment if you don't know his alignment and are not willing to find it out atm?

I have commented on the zen-posting at least 3 times. Ctrl+F. its the exact phrase I use.

Look, now i played voice mafia with all you guys.. when i read many of your posts, i "hear' you guys speaking to me, and read stuff as if its being spoken (which is how i type anyways - stream of consciousness).... When i hear FTs posts, its just really calming and relaxing. Look i dunno if that should be alignment indicative, but im treating it that way. Sorry.

Regardign replacing... yes you are right. my bad. he came in so late, it felt like a replacement.. hmmmm

(2) Alignment
I actually thought I wrote my stance clearly on why i asked marv.
We clearly have different approaches. Just accept we agree to disagree with this one.

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 15:44 GMT

#2850

@Rayn: Regarding - Mattchew
OP links are NOT updated. Mattchew filter
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423071&user=Mattchew

Im just going to list things that stick out to me whether pro/con and then summarise

+ Show Spoiler +

Not sure why his first action is to filter dive 4 specific players
Gut read on rayn is meh.. would have expected something more substatial
Gives an odd read on Chariman Ray.. almost as if he knows he is town (this stuck out to me a while back).. could just be poor phrasing
Where is outcome of his filter dive on 4 specific players?
Cuddles Mocsta... via gut again.. none of his posts have any in-game substance
Is OK with yam, based on others vote critera; but then later gives a wishywashy comment on yam that implies he only has a soft scum lean.. very odd
Asks for opinions on Stutters multiple times, but doesn't flesh out why he is interested (very scummy)
Rational of keeping voting on yam is odd... suggests he didnt have a scum read on him when he cast the vote in the first place....which is not consistent with prior comments
later puts a scum team which includes stutters.... why the fuck did he not vote stutters instead of yam.. OR prove stutters himself.. (VERY SCUMMY)
Really odd comments about marv.... not sure what it means

Overall.
I have a few problems with him
(1) Tries to insinuate stutters is scum through others, but provides no insight of his own. In fact, he doesnt even probe stutters directly to ascertain his alignment.
Exacerbated when he confirms he didnt have a scum read on yamato when voting him... but lists stutters on his scum team (His vote should have been on stutters !!)

(2) When speaking about chariman_ray opener; the phrasing is really odd. Its almost as if he knows the guy is town.. i actually cant pinpoint my issue with it, its just really odd.

(3) I have played voice mafia with this guy twice now. As town, matt is easily able to establish himself. He speaks freely and with confidence, is to the point, and doesn't listen to bullshit. I'm not getting an iota of that this game.

I actually can't see how this guy can be town. His actions are very scummy/deceitful, and I can't picture the motive for a town to keep asking about stutters, without providing personal insight, or querying stutters directly.

Im actually really happy with this guy to be voted. And willing to vote him above anyone else I discussed prior this cycle.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mattchew

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 15:54 GMT

#2856

On September 25 2013 00:53 Mattchew wrote:
Mocsta, try reading my filter

I did bbygrl.

Even posted the link

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 16:02 GMT

#2864

On September 25 2013 00:44 Mocsta wrote:
[*]Really odd comments about marv.... not sure what it means

On September 25 2013 01:00 Mattchew wrote:
I dont want scum defending me marv

.......

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 16:06 GMT

#2868

On September 25 2013 01:04 VisceraEyes wrote:
Matt's not ridiculously bad as town. At least, I don't think so. I could be wrong. Regardless, I don't think that's what we're seeing here.

Matt is awesome as town in voice. I get solving the game is different in voice to forum.
But establishing townieness follows the same guidelines.

For part (2); matt receives a clear "FAIL".

Mocsta

Australia9388 Posts

September 24 2013 16:07 GMT

#2869

On September 25 2013 01:04 geript wrote:

Geript, finals prep going well?

I assume if you posted now, you have some spare time. Can you please give thoughts on:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423071&currentpage=143#2850

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