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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On June 25 2013 11:09 Xzavier wrote: okay, i just want to say that half of you are fucking retarded, now, im watching day9. after him, im going to show you all how fucking retarded you are. Wow, you replied quickly for someone who has been mysteriously absent all day. Also very, very defensive. | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On June 25 2013 11:16 Chromatically wrote: Wow, you replied quickly for someone who has been mysteriously absent all day. Also very, very defensive. I got a warning for being moderately condescending in a heated debate and this guy gets off scot free for trashing half the town with vulgar language. Color me surprised. | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
And Aqua, who's your top read? Everyone, Xzav? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 25 2013 11:40 Chromatically wrote: Tofu, you still don't like Spicy? And Aqua, who's your top read? Everyone, Xzav? I'd prefer to see Xzavier's reply before I comment on either of these in detail. I don't see any reason to believe he's town from his posts so far, though. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
On June 25 2013 05:56 FirmTofu wrote: I would like to switch gears into a more constructive discussion. My Case Against SpicyDinosaur Play-by-play: Spicy starts off with an innocuous "Hey everyone", but is met with an immediate (harmless) accusation by Chromatically. Here we can see him blowing it out of proportion. With this, we can deduce that he is probably a blue role, alignment unclear OR that he has a overly defensive personality. I have stated this sentiment earlier in the thread. Here we see Chromatically respond to Spicy's defensive post. Spicy downplays his actions as mere friendly banter and continues on his way. This is consistent with his previous post and is mostly harmless. After a few hours, Hurricane shows up and posts his "Case for Spicy" Honestly, this isn't much of a case. What is interesting however, is Spicy's disproportionate response to it. Scum Radar: BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP Holy bananas, did Spicy go full ad hominem today! Resorting to cheap personal attacks to discredit Hurricane's arguments(or lack thereof), further reinforces the fact that Spicy is extremely afraid of dying. A blue town member would try to dissect the argument and point out its flaws.Spicy makes no attempt to contribute to the discussion at all. After posting a bit further and defending himself from some of my accusations, he takes an 8 hour hiatus; I would assume he slept. He returns with his case against me. (Not going to quote it because it messes up my bbcode) As I have already refuted all his points, I will not do so again. The important point to note is that he seems to be fishing for scum in me where there is none. This makes it seem as though he wants to discredit me so that others will stop listening to what I have to say. Most of the issues he has with me are shared between various other people as well. It is truly odd that he chooses me as a target instead of the others. Am I dangerous to him in some way? If so, how? Another issue that may be useful later is his subtle defense of fyfy that worked wonders to nail me as an idiot for having voted him. Everyone fell for it, but for the time being, I have linked Spicy and fyfy as possible teammates. This is the nail in the coffin. Chromatically sums up succinctly why the town aspects of me outweigh the scum aspects, but Spicy deliberately highlights the scum aspects and emphasizes them to justify his reasoning. His silence on the town aspects of me indicates that he cannot refute those points, but he still refuses to take his vote off of me. Whether it be arrogance or a scum-tell, Spicy is definitely a suspicious individual that needs to be looked into. ##Vote: SpicyDinosaur Just want to put this out there, if you think spicy is scum fine, but please dont blue hunt, and if you do blue hunt dont post who you think is blue all that does is help scum not town. | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
I'm not used to prompting you for reads and opinions. Don't you have any thoughts on the events of today? hz/Spicy/Tofu? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 25 2013 12:25 Chromatically wrote: Nothing else to say, Aqua? I'm not used to prompting you for reads and opinions. Don't you have any thoughts on the events of today? hz/Spicy/Tofu? I'm not interested in lynching any of those three today, if that's what you're asking. I can see the thought process of all three and I can easily see all of it coming from a town mindset, even if I don't agree with a lot of it. My current suspicions lie with Onegu and Xzavier, since they have posted a fair bit but actually said little to nothing of value. | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
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geript
10024 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + If you don't think this doesn't refer to you, then it may not but make sure to be mindful of how you interact with other players | ||
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Xzavier
United States393 Posts
On June 25 2013 02:53 hzflank wrote: I've been waiting for particular posts from Aquanim and Chromatically, which they have now made. That's a pretty flimsy case that Chrom has made against me. There is no reason to think that I would make a casual opening post when by the time I joined the game there were already five other casual opening posts. I think the game strategy stuff (regarding NN) was as good a discussion as any as it is actually important to the game. Up until this point I have in no way cared as to whether or not I look scummy, and since I got my scum read from Aquanim's first post it made sense for me to wait until there was a case made against someone before I posted this. It's about time that the scum try to get a wagon rolling and I am happy enough for that wagon to be on me, so I will even help scum Chromatically by ensuring that scum Aquanim also votes for me. Here is my take on the important parts of day 1 so far: Hurricane is the first to discuss the NN claiming. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 11:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Ugh, let's avoid the 'should we lynch lurkers talk' shall we? I'm gonna go ahead and post the play I had written earlier this week analyzing this game from a pro-town perspective. If any of my analysis is off-base, please jump in and steer me back on track. Pre-written segment starts now: Alright, chums. First let me state that in NO WAY is the following message a call for a mass claim. If you are the Parity Cop (assuming you even exist), DO NOT SAY SO. In fact, if you're our town's parity cop, it's probably better if you appear to ignore what I'm about to say completely. Same goes for Trackers and Watchers. DO NOT CLAIM. But read carefully, because you are a big part of whether we succeed or fail (whether we follow my plan or not). Now everyone, pay attention: Looking over the roles, the extremely juicy pro-town potential jumped right off the page at me, as I hope it did to many of you. Trackers can tell us if a person visits someone. Pretty good, but not nearly as good as the Watcher, who can pick a person and sees all who visit them. Obviously, this means we can try to guess the guy who's going to be mafia-killed, and we have a couple shots at seeing if he either gets visited, or manage to Track the mafia member who happens to be tagged to do the deed. Not great odds on either, but still better than nothing. My plan utilizes each role to their maximum potential. Because we are not guaranteed to have a Tracker, Watcher, or even a Parity Cop, it's important that for the roles we DO get, we use them efficiently. The Watcher needs to guess the target they think will be mafia-killed tonight. This is up to your judgement, but I'll make a recommendation later today. The fun part comes with the Tracker and the Nosy Neighbor (and by extension Parity Cop). The Tracker should secretly track the Nosy Neighbor. AGAIN, MR. OR MRS. TRACKER: DO NOT CLAIM NOW. If we have a Nosy Neighbor, they should claim IMMEDIATELY. Once the Tracker can confirm that the Nosy Neighbor is in fact moving around at night, but not visiting the person who got Mafia-killed, WE CAN ESTABLISH HIM AS TOWN. This is a big deal. The Parity Cop can then tag the confirmed Nosy Neighbor as Town and start measuring up suspects against them. If he gets a 'Different' claim, the other person is Scum. If he gets 'Same', they are town. I can elaborate further, but I feel like you can all piece together whatever holes are out there without me holding your hand even further. This is an extremely pro-town set-up (assuming there aren't a bunch of red herrings in which case, Hi I'm sponge, and I just gave you all the book on me.) and I'd like to move fast before mafia can organize their thoughts in their private little forum. If we move fast, and force independent action, they lose one of their many advantages. I wont go into my game theory here but can do in another post if people request, however I absolutely believe that the NN declaring is something that the scum would want. There were several people that disagreed with NN claiming, but importantly no one declared Hurricane to be especially scummy for making the post. Aquanim then makes a first post that is clever scum. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 13:28 Aquanim wrote: You wound me. Regarding claims I'm of the opinion that the Nosy Neighbour/Alpha 5 should claim now. This role is similar to a Miller in that it isn't useful for town at all, and could seriously backfire if they are watched/tracked/whatever by a townie. I don't see any downside to a Nosy Neighbour claiming, the worst case is that they play obvtown, get shot, and draw a shot away from actual town power roles. The biggest reason a Nosy Neighbour should claim now is that it eliminates the possibility of a scum fake-claiming it later if he is caught shooting/using a PR on someone. If we establish that a Nosy Neighbour should claim now, anyone claiming it later is caught scum. Obviously, scum can claim Nosy Neighbour so whoever claims it isn't confirmed town by any means. No other power roles should claim, that would be daft. (However, scum should feel free to claim their roles.) Regarding scum Current scumread is Chromatically for two reasons. 1) I don't like the feel of his initial posts. Making troll-cases to get the game rolling is fine, I have no objection to that in as of itself, but there's a certain nit-picking quality to his posts that feels wrong to me. Trying to read something into someone not posting for five minutes is ludicrous. 2) He's been doing a lot of asking other people for their reads while offering nothing even approaching one of his own. ##Vote: Chromatically Aquanim hopes that he can get a few town to agree that the NN should out themselves. Then his scumbuddies can also agree and the NN might claim, giving an advantage to the scum team. Since Hurricane did not get a hard time, Aquanim does not think that he will be lynched for being the first to make the suggestion. Aquanim is fairly sure that when the time comes he can rely on Hurricanes vote for NN to claim, so he really only needs two more town votes, which makes it worth a try. Aqua's scumbuddy, Chromatically, has already said that the NN claiming is a bad idea. Aqua sees a chance to make a good play here and throws a weak vote on Chromatically. It is still early in the day and there is little chance of a wagon forming. Aqua never intends to leave his vote on Chromatically, but is just creating some distance from him so that it wont look suspicious if Chromatically should change his mind about the NN claim. Ofcourse there is the added bonus that if Chromatically should later flip scum then Aqua can refer to his very first post and claim to be confirmed town. Next, FirmTofu defends my weak read on him. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 13:34 FirmTofu wrote: You are taking an extremely simplified approach to analyze my actions. I am not "attacking" or "defending" anyone. I am stating my opinions on how various people are behaving. If you can't distinguish between the two, we have a serious problem here. You can't say that my "defenses" are out of place without even looking at the context of the situation. Read my quote, see if it makes sense to you, and form an opinion based on that. Furthermore, this post is as scummy as scummy gets. You state that you can side with me as I pursue a lynch on Spicy(see 1), but you also consider me to be the scummiest player(see 2). How are these two chain of thoughts compatible? By this point I suspect that either Aqua or Chromatically might put their vote on me, but I cannot say so prematurely, especially since Aqua still has his vote on Chrom. After a little consideration I decide to lurk for a while, as I wanted Chrom to make a post of some sort before I made this claim. Next we have: So right after Aqua realised my above mistake with Firm, he asks Firm for his read on Chrom (who aqua still has his vote on). He is either looking for Firm to give him a good reason to think Chrom is town, or he is looking for Firm to give a scum read on me, or both. Either way, Firm is the most likely town to get onto my wagon at this point, so it is good setup. Here we have Aqua ask Firm again for their opinion on his case on Chromatically. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 16:26 Aquanim wrote: First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. Remember that this was the case that Aqua put forth in his very first post of the game. It was not a strong case and he knew it would never stand, so it was a good way to both give people a town read on his scumbuddy and also create some distance within the scum team. Firm responds that he thinks Chrom is town, which is exactly what Aqua wanted and why he asked him twice. Aqua has now gotten Firm (the person he thinks he can get to vote for me) to say that the scumbuddy that Aqua has his vote on (Chrom) is town. Well played Aqua. Shorlty after, Aqua posts this + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 17:04 Aquanim wrote: I suppose that's a fair enough position to hold. I've personally found that my reads based on 'feelings' are often more accurate than those where I carefully assemble 'evidence'. This doesn't feel to me like the town Chromatic which I played with in Newbie XXXIII. Asking questions is a town-y kind of thing to do, I agree. However, in my mind it is only significantly town-y when there is an actual plan behind those questions. By comparison, Chromatic was asking pretty generic questions without any real point or follow-up. Asking other people for their reads while having shared none of his own does not sit well with me. Pointing out that some plan or another is stupid before anyone else does is a really cheap way of accumulating town-cred without committing to anything. Someone was going to shoot that plan down either way, so a scum player would have nothing to gain from not shooting it down. All this being said, I think that what he's done so far could plausibly be explained by a town mentality as well as a scum one. If he comes back tomorrow and starts playing a good town-game I'll be looking to lynch somebody else. For the meantime, though, my vote and intention stays. There he gets in that his read on Chrom is based on feelings rather than evidence. He is telling us that there is no good reason to suspect Chrom while he still has his vote on Chrom. He closed by saying that if Chrom starts to play a good town game then he will move his vote to someone else, which in this case will be the person that Chrom votes for because they are scumbuddies. Here Aqua mocks Firm for voting due to inactivity because part of their plan was that Firm would vote for me, and he wants to make sure that Firm will move his vote. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 19:35 Aquanim wrote: You're being voted because FirmTofu wasn't man enough to put his vote on somebody he thought would talk back. Don't worry about it, just read the thread and let us know who you think is suspicious. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on what's happened in the game so far sometime in the next few hours. Chromatically gets back online and makes this post: + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 20:43 Chromatically wrote: Aqua, are you scum? Both of these things are towntells. Explain to me the scum motivation in getting discussion rolling early day 1, which was OBVIOUSLY the reason that I pressured Spicy (and it worked). Sorry, if you thought that it was "ludicrous", but it doesn't make me scum and you know it. If you wanted to know about someone, you could just asked me. I'm not just going to randomly post reads if I'm not going to push for their lynch, but I'll definitely tell you what I think of someone or who my scumreads are. Why wouldn't you ask me for my scumreads if you wanted them? Probably because that's not actually what you want at all. Someone else asked me for scumreads, and I posted mine right below your post, but you haven't reacted to that at all. Does this point still stand even after I've posted my scumreads? Or did your opinion not change at all for some reason? You also said: Oh, this feels more like the scum Chromatic from XXXI? I am very, very uncomfortable with you, Aqua, because you are usually very town from your first post. This game, you've done a lot of shitting up the thread with stuff about claims and Nns. I take that as: 'Okay Aqua, time to unvote me now because I am going to try to start a wagon on someone else and it would not look as good for you to move your vote directly from me to them'. Surprise surprise, in the very next post Aqua unvotes Chrom, which we all knew would happen after reading Aqua's very first post in this game (where he voted for Chrom). The most important line in this post by Aqua is: 'Those reads were pretty weak, I'd like to see more from you', because that is him paving the way for Chrom to begin the mis-lynch attempt. And then finally Chrom makes a case against me and votes. Now, it would be easier for me to vote if I had an individual scum read, but since I am fairly confident that both Aqua and Chrom are scum, I am going to vote for Chrom because I think doing so will force Aqua to take a very strong stance one way or the other. Chrom already has his vote on me, so if I vote Aqua then Chrom does not need to make a decision and can just leave his vote where it is. ##Vote: Chromatically everything everybody has said about NN has meant nill to me right now, except for the people asking for him to claim. Because him being alive benefits scum more than town, because even if we know who he is, scum can still claim that it was NN and we wouldnt know different, unless you wanted to tail this guy the entire game, essentially wasting a blue role. im lynching somebody if they claim NN. im sorry, i just am. because it doesnt benefit anything, even if your are NN, thats unfortunate, your dead. its like miller, you can claim it all you want, but on my list scum would claim miller too, so it isnt a defense, its just unfortunate circumstances. On June 24 2013 14:43 LoneMeow wrote: There's this thing called timezones - it's now 07:43 in my current local time... Regarding to claiming, I'd like to ask that nobody claims. Day 1 claiming is generally not a great idea. I'd like to note that largely with the exception of this post, you haven't done much scumhunting yourself. Would you care to elaborate on those small things for me? I do agree about Xzavier feeling scummy though. It first felt like a bit of meta case, as I remember him being very actively townie during day 1 in our last game, but reading through what he's said so far he hasn't really done any hunting so it seems objectively scummy, too. Okay, last game during day1 i went holy fucking shit hard, made a few big blunders, almost got a town lynched over a scum, and that seriously hurt my confidence going into the rest of the game. I dont want to be the center of attention trying to direct town discussion if i cant handle it (as shown last game) It would be much better for me to analyze people, call them bad, and find scum. then to try to be mr. sheriff and totally fuck up the game. Also, posting the list that is located on page 1 is scummy as shit to me, that is useless contribution, because its so much easier to open up page 1 in a new tab to find filters, it literally doesnt benefit anything at all. IF i WAS scum this game, i would try to do exactly what i did last game, because if i made town-bandwagons it would look like last game where i was town, and everybody would just call me a bad townie. On June 25 2013 02:47 Onegu wrote: Ebwop I figured it out Alakaslam is Umasi's cocaine dealer!!! This made me openly laugh. well played sir. On June 25 2013 07:05 LoneMeow wrote: Xzavier, I still don't like your filter. Practically just setup speculation, no scum hunting or reads. I want to lynch you. I'm not all that comfortable with lynching hzflank, in fact I'd rather not. I read him as town-ish. StiMaDDict, start participating in some way. Who's your top scum read, why? fyfy, you say you'd "rather lynch someone scummier", tell me who'd that be? ##Vote: Xzavier The bold is kinda bullshit? it would be one thing if you said "i kinda just want to lynch you because your lurking hardcore and didnt do that last game!" then i woulda been okay with it, but because you didnt it makes me wonder. What scumhunting was their to do when everybody has 1-2 posts that they most probably arnt going to give away anything. seriously, how bad would somebody have to be to fuck up their first post? misread there role pm? I really dont think thats enough to vote somebody, Asking for fyfy who they would rather lynch instead of encouraging the person your voting for also seems strange. its like saying this is a pressure vote, then taking off the pressure. Its like your trying to pressure somebody but you dont want to commit yourself, like your afraid of making too many people upset. That or your trying to pressure like three people at once, which is impossible with only 1 vote. T.T to me you seem like your trying to press as many buttons as possible and hoping to hit something, in essence thats the plan, but you cant do it all at the same time. On June 25 2013 12:36 Aquanim wrote: I'm not interested in lynching any of those three today, if that's what you're asking. I can see the thought process of all three and I can easily see all of it coming from a town mindset, even if I don't agree with a lot of it. My current suspicions lie with Onegu and Xzavier, since they have posted a fair bit but actually said little to nothing of value. This post just moved Aqua to my number 1 scum list. ##VOTE Aquanim uhhh. dude, this is your first post in 12 hours, and all you did was a gree with everybody, and say whats already been said. your filter isnt that impressive and you havnt reacted or responded to pressure. you talked alot when it was about the NN meta, which all iv gleaned from is lynch anybody who claims NN at any point in the game. Because it means that they are scum, if they WERE Noisy neighbor, then they would be okay getting lynched, post all of their biggest cases before they died, become confirmed (and dead) town. We re-read his case. If its strong we lynch who he suspects and win. That would be the best way to play noisy neighbor. Claiming NN to stay alive is pretty pointless, you can say it, but it wont keep you alive. So you pretty much were encouraging a useless may as well be spam topic. you havnt actually done anything pro-town, and are using the heat on me and Onegu as a cover in order to not make a splash and still get a mislynch. sry i wasnt able to go as in depth as i wanted to on alot of posts. I had like 6-7 quotes i wanted to talk about, but my brother just got home an hour earlier than i planned. T.T i WILL actually post more in the morning before i go to class. By the way i work tomorrow so i wont be around for the vote, so my vote will be cast like 8 hours prior to the deadline. :O | ||
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Xzavier
United States393 Posts
On June 25 2013 11:05 Chromatically wrote: Most of the Xzavier stuff is really obvious: look at early day 1 and his filter. He spams a lot, posts things that are meaningless, etc. His posts feel loose and casual, but that could easily be an act. Here he actually admits that his other posting has been useless, but then adds yet another useless post talking about how "strong" the town roles are by saying a lot of self-evident stuff. He's posting for the sake of posting. I especially like the part where he says that he'd lynch a claimed parity cop. The other noteworthy post where he literally says nothing. The first sentence is meaningless. He promises more activity later, which I never really like to see, particularly when that activity doesn't occur. Maybe it didn't happen because there was no pressure on him? He ends with a question that doesn't matter because he knows that the deadline is about 2 days away. The exact time doesn't matter at all. I can see a scum Xzav posting this in order to "interact" a little without doing anything. Everything else in his filter is spam. Look at it yourselves. ##Vote: Xzavier Keep in mind, as you read Xzav, that this is not a total noob player. I don't want to rely on meta heavily (at all, really), but at least observe the fact that he does know what he's doing as town. He played a strong town game in XLII, but he is anything but that this game. At the very least, he is certainly experienced enough to know not to lynch a claimed blue. The "noob town" defense doesn't hold water with Xzav because he's clearly capable of being a strong townie. pardon me, but i was lynched my first and only game for having a horrid voting record, started a bandwagon on a townie and almost got him lynched over a scum, call me a strong townie again. please. i was good at projecting myself as town, but i wasnt able to do anything with it, in essence i spammed alot. The few pro-town posts i made were just what i thought were to be obvious. But then the rest of the game i was treated like a noob, and even when i did analysis i was wrong. So i just started sheeping ffere who was a godly JailKeeper. What would be the benefit of projecting myself off as townie like that again, it only really worked because iVloski was playing a troll style game. | ||
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Xzavier
United States393 Posts
On June 25 2013 12:36 Aquanim wrote: I'm not interested in lynching any of those three today, if that's what you're asking. I can see the thought process of all three and I can easily see all of it coming from a town mindset, even if I don't agree with a lot of it. My current suspicions lie with Onegu and Xzavier, since they have posted a fair bit but actually said little to nothing of value. This post just moved Aqua to my number 1 scum list. ##VOTE Aquanim uhhh. dude, this is your first post in 12 hours, and all you did was a gree with everybody, and say whats already been said. your filter isnt that impressive and you havnt reacted or responded to pressure. you talked alot when it was about the NN meta, which all iv gleaned from is lynch anybody who claims NN at any point in the game. Because it means that they are scum, if they WERE Noisy neighbor, then they would be okay getting lynched, post all of their biggest cases before they died, become confirmed (and dead) town. We re-read his case. If its strong we lynch who he suspects and win. That would be the best way to play noisy neighbor. Claiming NN to stay alive is pretty pointless, you can say it, but it wont keep you alive. So you pretty much were encouraging a useless may as well be spam topic. | ||
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Xzavier
United States393 Posts
On June 25 2013 07:05 LoneMeow wrote: Xzavier, I still don't like your filter. Practically just setup speculation, no scum hunting or reads. I want to lynch you. I'm not all that comfortable with lynching hzflank, in fact I'd rather not. I read him as town-ish. StiMaDDict, start participating in some way. Who's your top scum read, why? fyfy, you say you'd "rather lynch someone scummier", tell me who'd that be? ##Vote: Xzavier The bold is kinda bullshit? it would be one thing if you said "i kinda just want to lynch you because your lurking hardcore and didnt do that last game!" then i woulda been okay with it, but because you didnt it makes me wonder. What scumhunting was their to do when everybody has 1-2 posts that they most probably arnt going to give away anything. seriously, how bad would somebody have to be to fuck up their first post? misread there role pm? I really dont think thats enough to vote somebody, Asking for fyfy who they would rather lynch instead of encouraging the person your voting for also seems strange. its like saying this is a pressure vote, then taking off the pressure. Its like your trying to pressure somebody but you dont want to commit yourself, like your afraid of making too many people upset. That or your trying to pressure like three people at once, which is impossible with only 1 vote. T.T to me you seem like your trying to press as many buttons as possible and hoping to hit something, in essence thats the plan, but you cant do it all at the same time. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 25 2013 12:44 Chromatically wrote: Alright, that's pretty much where I'm going too. But with more Alakaslam and less Onegu. I have to admit I've been having trouble understanding what Alakaslam has said so far... but I'm having difficulty seeing his thing about "spamming up the thread with bad bbcode -> scum" (link) coming from a scum player. It just feels too... enthusiastic. I get the overall impression that he is trying. I'd love to see more from him but I'd prefer to lynch Xzavier or Onegu at this point. (A quick note: LoneMeow did say pregame that he would be on vacation until the 27th, so I'm inclined not to lynch him today.) | ||
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Xzavier
United States393 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On June 25 2013 12:50 Xzavier wrote: This post just moved Aqua to my number 1 scum list. ##VOTE Aquanim uhhh. dude, this is your first post in 12 hours, and all you did was a gree with everybody, and say whats already been said. your filter isnt that impressive and you havnt reacted or responded to pressure. you talked alot when it was about the NN meta, which all iv gleaned from is lynch anybody who claims NN at any point in the game. Because it means that they are scum, if they WERE Noisy neighbor, then they would be okay getting lynched, post all of their biggest cases before they died, become confirmed (and dead) town. We re-read his case. If its strong we lynch who he suspects and win. That would be the best way to play noisy neighbor. Claiming NN to stay alive is pretty pointless, you can say it, but it wont keep you alive. So you pretty much were encouraging a useless may as well be spam topic. you havnt actually done anything pro-town, and are using the heat on me and Onegu as a cover in order to not make a splash and still get a mislynch. Seriously? This is all you have? You want to lynch me over a single post? (Also, even if I was being a hypocrite that is not very scum-indicative.) And is there something inherently scummy about broadly agreeing with other people's opinions? I didn't go into depth with my reads because I wanted to see what you and Onegu brought to the table. You hadn't said much before, but I thought that if you were town you might pick up your game now that there is more to talk about. I am not impressed by this 'case' of yours. Also, I fail to see how making the first real case of the game, putting down the first vote of the game, and seeking reactions to it is not pro-town. I didn't read the last newbie in detail other than knowing you're not completely incompetent, so I'm not judging you based on however strong your previous towngame was - your play here is just straight-up scummy. This isn't a read based on an understanding of the thread overall, this is a read based on jumping on a post in the last page or so and trying to milk something out of it. ##Vote: Xzavier | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
"This scumread of yours isn't based on a understanding of the thread overall..." etc. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
On June 25 2013 02:53 hzflank wrote: I've been waiting for particular posts from Aquanim and Chromatically, which they have now made. That's a pretty flimsy case that Chrom has made against me. There is no reason to think that I would make a casual opening post when by the time I joined the game there were already five other casual opening posts. I think the game strategy stuff (regarding NN) was as good a discussion as any as it is actually important to the game. Up until this point I have in no way cared as to whether or not I look scummy, and since I got my scum read from Aquanim's first post it made sense for me to wait until there was a case made against someone before I posted this. It's about time that the scum try to get a wagon rolling and I am happy enough for that wagon to be on me, so I will even help scum Chromatically by ensuring that scum Aquanim also votes for me. Here is my take on the important parts of day 1 so far: Hurricane is the first to discuss the NN claiming. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 11:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote: Ugh, let's avoid the 'should we lynch lurkers talk' shall we? I'm gonna go ahead and post the play I had written earlier this week analyzing this game from a pro-town perspective. If any of my analysis is off-base, please jump in and steer me back on track. Pre-written segment starts now: Alright, chums. First let me state that in NO WAY is the following message a call for a mass claim. If you are the Parity Cop (assuming you even exist), DO NOT SAY SO. In fact, if you're our town's parity cop, it's probably better if you appear to ignore what I'm about to say completely. Same goes for Trackers and Watchers. DO NOT CLAIM. But read carefully, because you are a big part of whether we succeed or fail (whether we follow my plan or not). Now everyone, pay attention: Looking over the roles, the extremely juicy pro-town potential jumped right off the page at me, as I hope it did to many of you. Trackers can tell us if a person visits someone. Pretty good, but not nearly as good as the Watcher, who can pick a person and sees all who visit them. Obviously, this means we can try to guess the guy who's going to be mafia-killed, and we have a couple shots at seeing if he either gets visited, or manage to Track the mafia member who happens to be tagged to do the deed. Not great odds on either, but still better than nothing. My plan utilizes each role to their maximum potential. Because we are not guaranteed to have a Tracker, Watcher, or even a Parity Cop, it's important that for the roles we DO get, we use them efficiently. The Watcher needs to guess the target they think will be mafia-killed tonight. This is up to your judgement, but I'll make a recommendation later today. The fun part comes with the Tracker and the Nosy Neighbor (and by extension Parity Cop). The Tracker should secretly track the Nosy Neighbor. AGAIN, MR. OR MRS. TRACKER: DO NOT CLAIM NOW. If we have a Nosy Neighbor, they should claim IMMEDIATELY. Once the Tracker can confirm that the Nosy Neighbor is in fact moving around at night, but not visiting the person who got Mafia-killed, WE CAN ESTABLISH HIM AS TOWN. This is a big deal. The Parity Cop can then tag the confirmed Nosy Neighbor as Town and start measuring up suspects against them. If he gets a 'Different' claim, the other person is Scum. If he gets 'Same', they are town. I can elaborate further, but I feel like you can all piece together whatever holes are out there without me holding your hand even further. This is an extremely pro-town set-up (assuming there aren't a bunch of red herrings in which case, Hi I'm sponge, and I just gave you all the book on me.) and I'd like to move fast before mafia can organize their thoughts in their private little forum. If we move fast, and force independent action, they lose one of their many advantages. I wont go into my game theory here but can do in another post if people request, however I absolutely believe that the NN declaring is something that the scum would want. There were several people that disagreed with NN claiming, but importantly no one declared Hurricane to be especially scummy for making the post. Aquanim then makes a first post that is clever scum. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 13:28 Aquanim wrote: You wound me. Regarding claims I'm of the opinion that the Nosy Neighbour/Alpha 5 should claim now. This role is similar to a Miller in that it isn't useful for town at all, and could seriously backfire if they are watched/tracked/whatever by a townie. I don't see any downside to a Nosy Neighbour claiming, the worst case is that they play obvtown, get shot, and draw a shot away from actual town power roles. The biggest reason a Nosy Neighbour should claim now is that it eliminates the possibility of a scum fake-claiming it later if he is caught shooting/using a PR on someone. If we establish that a Nosy Neighbour should claim now, anyone claiming it later is caught scum. Obviously, scum can claim Nosy Neighbour so whoever claims it isn't confirmed town by any means. No other power roles should claim, that would be daft. (However, scum should feel free to claim their roles.) Regarding scum Current scumread is Chromatically for two reasons. 1) I don't like the feel of his initial posts. Making troll-cases to get the game rolling is fine, I have no objection to that in as of itself, but there's a certain nit-picking quality to his posts that feels wrong to me. Trying to read something into someone not posting for five minutes is ludicrous. 2) He's been doing a lot of asking other people for their reads while offering nothing even approaching one of his own. ##Vote: Chromatically Aquanim hopes that he can get a few town to agree that the NN should out themselves. Then his scumbuddies can also agree and the NN might claim, giving an advantage to the scum team. Since Hurricane did not get a hard time, Aquanim does not think that he will be lynched for being the first to make the suggestion. Aquanim is fairly sure that when the time comes he can rely on Hurricanes vote for NN to claim, so he really only needs two more town votes, which makes it worth a try. Aqua's scumbuddy, Chromatically, has already said that the NN claiming is a bad idea. Aqua sees a chance to make a good play here and throws a weak vote on Chromatically. It is still early in the day and there is little chance of a wagon forming. Aqua never intends to leave his vote on Chromatically, but is just creating some distance from him so that it wont look suspicious if Chromatically should change his mind about the NN claim. Ofcourse there is the added bonus that if Chromatically should later flip scum then Aqua can refer to his very first post and claim to be confirmed town. Next, FirmTofu defends my weak read on him. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 13:34 FirmTofu wrote: You are taking an extremely simplified approach to analyze my actions. I am not "attacking" or "defending" anyone. I am stating my opinions on how various people are behaving. If you can't distinguish between the two, we have a serious problem here. You can't say that my "defenses" are out of place without even looking at the context of the situation. Read my quote, see if it makes sense to you, and form an opinion based on that. Furthermore, this post is as scummy as scummy gets. You state that you can side with me as I pursue a lynch on Spicy(see 1), but you also consider me to be the scummiest player(see 2). How are these two chain of thoughts compatible? By this point I suspect that either Aqua or Chromatically might put their vote on me, but I cannot say so prematurely, especially since Aqua still has his vote on Chrom. After a little consideration I decide to lurk for a while, as I wanted Chrom to make a post of some sort before I made this claim. Next we have: So right after Aqua realised my above mistake with Firm, he asks Firm for his read on Chrom (who aqua still has his vote on). He is either looking for Firm to give him a good reason to think Chrom is town, or he is looking for Firm to give a scum read on me, or both. Either way, Firm is the most likely town to get onto my wagon at this point, so it is good setup. Here we have Aqua ask Firm again for their opinion on his case on Chromatically. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 16:26 Aquanim wrote: First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. Remember that this was the case that Aqua put forth in his very first post of the game. It was not a strong case and he knew it would never stand, so it was a good way to both give people a town read on his scumbuddy and also create some distance within the scum team. Firm responds that he thinks Chrom is town, which is exactly what Aqua wanted and why he asked him twice. Aqua has now gotten Firm (the person he thinks he can get to vote for me) to say that the scumbuddy that Aqua has his vote on (Chrom) is town. Well played Aqua. Shorlty after, Aqua posts this + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 17:04 Aquanim wrote: I suppose that's a fair enough position to hold. I've personally found that my reads based on 'feelings' are often more accurate than those where I carefully assemble 'evidence'. This doesn't feel to me like the town Chromatic which I played with in Newbie XXXIII. Asking questions is a town-y kind of thing to do, I agree. However, in my mind it is only significantly town-y when there is an actual plan behind those questions. By comparison, Chromatic was asking pretty generic questions without any real point or follow-up. Asking other people for their reads while having shared none of his own does not sit well with me. Pointing out that some plan or another is stupid before anyone else does is a really cheap way of accumulating town-cred without committing to anything. Someone was going to shoot that plan down either way, so a scum player would have nothing to gain from not shooting it down. All this being said, I think that what he's done so far could plausibly be explained by a town mentality as well as a scum one. If he comes back tomorrow and starts playing a good town-game I'll be looking to lynch somebody else. For the meantime, though, my vote and intention stays. There he gets in that his read on Chrom is based on feelings rather than evidence. He is telling us that there is no good reason to suspect Chrom while he still has his vote on Chrom. He closed by saying that if Chrom starts to play a good town game then he will move his vote to someone else, which in this case will be the person that Chrom votes for because they are scumbuddies. Here Aqua mocks Firm for voting due to inactivity because part of their plan was that Firm would vote for me, and he wants to make sure that Firm will move his vote. + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 19:35 Aquanim wrote: You're being voted because FirmTofu wasn't man enough to put his vote on somebody he thought would talk back. Don't worry about it, just read the thread and let us know who you think is suspicious. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts on what's happened in the game so far sometime in the next few hours. Chromatically gets back online and makes this post: + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2013 20:43 Chromatically wrote: Aqua, are you scum? Both of these things are towntells. Explain to me the scum motivation in getting discussion rolling early day 1, which was OBVIOUSLY the reason that I pressured Spicy (and it worked). Sorry, if you thought that it was "ludicrous", but it doesn't make me scum and you know it. If you wanted to know about someone, you could just asked me. I'm not just going to randomly post reads if I'm not going to push for their lynch, but I'll definitely tell you what I think of someone or who my scumreads are. Why wouldn't you ask me for my scumreads if you wanted them? Probably because that's not actually what you want at all. Someone else asked me for scumreads, and I posted mine right below your post, but you haven't reacted to that at all. Does this point still stand even after I've posted my scumreads? Or did your opinion not change at all for some reason? You also said: Oh, this feels more like the scum Chromatic from XXXI? I am very, very uncomfortable with you, Aqua, because you are usually very town from your first post. This game, you've done a lot of shitting up the thread with stuff about claims and Nns. I take that as: 'Okay Aqua, time to unvote me now because I am going to try to start a wagon on someone else and it would not look as good for you to move your vote directly from me to them'. Surprise surprise, in the very next post Aqua unvotes Chrom, which we all knew would happen after reading Aqua's very first post in this game (where he voted for Chrom). The most important line in this post by Aqua is: 'Those reads were pretty weak, I'd like to see more from you', because that is him paving the way for Chrom to begin the mis-lynch attempt. And then finally Chrom makes a case against me and votes. Now, it would be easier for me to vote if I had an individual scum read, but since I am fairly confident that both Aqua and Chrom are scum, I am going to vote for Chrom because I think doing so will force Aqua to take a very strong stance one way or the other. Chrom already has his vote on me, so if I vote Aqua then Chrom does not need to make a decision and can just leave his vote where it is. ##Vote: Chromatically His connection between aqua and chrome is terrible and illogical, but the case on aqua has some good points I will build on. filterOn June 24 2013 16:48 FirmTofu wrote:As for Chromatically...Your case is extremely weak. Show nested quote +Addressing your point 1), you are going off a bad feeling. Feelings don't cut it for me. I need evidence to make a move.I suppose that's a fair enough position to hold. I've personally found that my reads based on 'feelings' are often more accurate than those where I carefully assemble 'evidence'. This doesn't feel to me like the town Chromatic which I played with in Newbie XXXIII.Addressing point 2), it seems quite town to me because it's forcing lurkers to talk. Talking is good for town, so I see this move as something a townie would do.Asking questions is a town-y kind of thing to do, I agree. However, in my mind it is only significantly town-y when there is an actual plan behind those questions. By comparison, Chromatic was asking pretty generic questions without any real point or follow-up. Asking other people for their reads while having shared none of his own does not sit well with me.There are a few other things that make me think Chromatically is town. He was the first person to point out the foolish aspects of Hurricane's poorly thought-out claim. What incentive would mafia have to steer town in the right direction?Pointing out that some plan or another is stupid before anyone else does is a really cheap way of accumulating town-cred without committing to anything. Someone was going to shoot that plan down either way, so a scum player would have nothing to gain from not shooting it down.All this being said, I think that what he's done so far could plausibly be explained by a town mentality as well as a scum one. If he comes back tomorrow and starts playing a good town-game I'll be looking to lynch somebody else. For the meantime, though, my vote and intention stays. Him saying the bolded part really bothers me, it is a failsafe for him to later say his gut lead him to make votes without having to make cases behind it The other big thing about him is he kept the NN thing going way to long almost half his posts deal with the NN, when it is a bad idea, what if the NN claims day one but scum counterclaims day 4 we still dont know who is who it only give scum an advantage and for him to harp on it over and over is scummy to me. ##VOTE: Aquanim | ||
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