EPT##Vote: BH
[M][N] Les Mafia - Page 3
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
##Vote: BH | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
I'll start by trying to fetch out Spicy's stuff, since that seemed to be a piece of it. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 20 2013 08:17 Spicydinosaur wrote: yeah i do. I think he's overemphasizing meta way too much and holds double standards. Take me and WoS for example. Here he says that WoS is scum because he's more sure of himself now, than when he was when he was town, hence he's scum. If WoS was more wishy washy like he was in previous games, gf would be ok with that according to his own logic. Here he says im scum for basically the same reason as WoS, in that I'm not acting like i did in my previous game where I had better reads earlier on. If this is where his analysis ends that would be at least consistent. He goes on later to state that being wishy washy is a complete scum trait. He's not consistent with his reasonings. Also he claims that in the newbie game i had suspects and evolving opinions. My reading on WoS can easily be considered an evolving opinion. One of my posts about WoS started off claiming he was scum but then explained he got better. How is that not an evolving opinion. If i called WoS scum first, and then in a second post said eh nvm, how would that be different. These thoughts and the ones i've had on him previously make me believe he's scum. When doing meta-analysis, different people behave differently. Should WoS change his playstyle one game from being wishy-washy and apologetic (as town) to being very sure of himself here, that's something that needs to be looked into. In general, when you see someone discussing having 100% certainty this guy's town and this guy's scum, it can be an indicator of privileged knowledge that only scum would be privy to. On the other hand, when you have someone like BH who's usually very assertive have little opinion on anyone, that can be a scumtell. In short, different people behave differently. I work with general scumtells for sure, but I also keep in consideration how people typically behave for both their town and scumgames. And then you discuss how your reading on WoS evolved over time, when you really didn't discuss him at all except when mixing up his name in your vote post... I really don't know what to make of your posting to date. On the one hand, it is super-scummy. On the other, it is very hard for me to believe that a scum would be so insanely careless. But then again, we have this post from you: On May 20 2013 11:11 Spicydinosaur wrote: I agree but didn't it seem over the top scummy, like no rational scum player would play it like that. So you have some awareness of how you could come off townie by looking insanely scummy (if that makes any sense...). I feel like I'm looking at your filter and I'm WIFOM-ing myself. The simplest explanation is that you're a newbie and as scum you would be less likely to have derped as hard as you have. And I'll stick with that assessment for now. I would really like to know what other scumreads you have other than myself and hopefully BH. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 21 2013 04:36 marvellosity wrote: Hmm, I found something that doesn't make GK look too hot. Here's his 2nd post in the game here, which I'll spoiler: + Show Spoiler + On May 18 2013 06:47 goodkarma wrote: I feel that Stutters's play so far has been scummy. First, he completely contradicts himself about his thoughts on meta: So he doesn't feel meta's important here. But: When it comes to excusing his lurky play, it matters. Also, I found this to be scummy: In other words, he's ready to sheep onto a Vayne lynch bandwaggon if it gains momentum. But he doesn't want to draw atttention to himself by putting down a vote. #Vote: Stutters I look forward to Stutters's response. If it is to be believed he's sometimes useful as town, then that's another scumtell as he's been nothing but useless thus far. Here's a couple of things he said in The Game. Highlights in bold and red are mine. The bolds are self-explanatory, and I bolded the red to explain it slightly - goodkarma is saying in this passage that it's important to push people for their motivations and thought processes, and thinks it's very important. Here he makes an early case on Stutters (despite saying last town-game he doesn't make early cases) and he never talked to him first about his thought processes. I would note at the end of his post in this thread he says "I look forward to Stutters response". But if we're to take his posts in The Game at face value, goodkarma likes to play by getting responses FIRST, voting LATER. First off, the wording is "don't typically," which is very important. You (and everyone else) seem to be treating my day one play as though I had knowledge of my alignment, which isn't the case... With Stutters, my early vote was a form of pressure. It's been my experience that he's very hard to get much out of at times, so an early case felt appropriate. Further, if you are to look at this game and compare it to prior ones, you will notice I have no mention of policy lurker lynches, which has been an early staple of my play (regardless of alignment) since like forever. So if you believe, as some seem to, that my use of meta-analysis is poor, yet are holding me to some kind of meta, I would like you to consider my two scumgames.: 1) LVII I could pretty much do whatever the fuck I wanted (as long as I didn't draw a RB), as Mattchew was caught and I was planning on suiciding night one. So I was more aggressive there than I normally would be. 2) My very first scumgame which no one seems to remember or mention (NMM XXIII) was mostly a lurkfest. I sat there and made a case or two. The moment I was suspected I crumbled up and waited to die... So in short, if I were scum I'm confident that what you'd see something different from both of them. But what you wouldn't have seen is me throwing around votes as hard as I did or changing my stances like I did. I've played enough to know better than to make a bajillion vote switches as scum. I would have been far more cautious. And yes, you could respond with something like "Well wouldn't you as scum, knowing all this, just make a post like this anyway?" You should be familiar enough now with the way I've played as town to understand my playstyle and thought process. People rail on me all the time for my day one townplay. It's because of policy talk, or focusing on lurkey players, or some creative play that no one likes (not looking at role PM day 1)... If you were to believe me when I say that I didn't look at my role PM until when I said I did in thread, and then assess my reads, I would like to know how you think they line up with yours. Move spicy to null, BH to certain scum+ Show Spoiler + (outside of some wildly unlikely 2-town mason, bad town vigi that doesn't claim shenanigans) | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 21 2013 06:59 Dandel Ion wrote: Why would a team around scum-BH shoot iamperfection, directly implicating him further? Basically, that assumes that either a SK shot iamp, or he's getting bussed all the way. Otherwise it just makes no sense. What kind of logic is this? Iamp was a strong town read to almost everyone here, and only mason-claimed 7 minutes before the end of the night cycle. It's very possible that the scumteam already planned on killing him, and didn't have time to react. Further, even if they did have time, why wouldn't the scumteam go for the blue? I doubt that there's two town masons in this kind of setup. With that in mind, I'd treat it as a counterclaim. Would you believe Iamp or BH is scum? In other words, BH is very likely getting lynched after iamp's claim regardless of whether iamp lives. So in either case it would make sense for scum to shoot him. That you implicate it's dumb for scum to shoot a claimed blue is very very scummy. There's clear scum motive for this post, and I have trouble visualizing how as town you'd think like this. Combined with your tunnelly and useless play this game, I'd be very interested in lynching you after we lynch BH. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 21 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote: GK: so you're proposing you play differently when you don't know your alignment to when you know you're town? I've already explicitly described my thought process behind what I did day one in my filter. You should read that more closely.: On May 19 2013 13:07 goodkarma wrote: If you want to lynch me, suit yourself. Just know this: Day 1 I don't check my role PM. So you're basically random lynching. I've resolved to do my best to help town, regardless of alignment, day one. Even as scum, if I were to lynch a teammate I figured I'd just be removing a liability. It was the fruit of all the bitterness of having people down my throat every day one as town. And if you don't believe me, check hydra mini mafia II obsQT. The only reason I knew my alignment early there was because of my partner peaked. I've honestly become very tired of putting up with this shit every day one. So feel free to lynch me. I've put it out there. I'll check my alignment closer to the deadline... And hopefully you'll have enough sanity to go after the obvious people that should be looked into for lynching (BH / JarJar) instead of the guy that's being a tryhard. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 21 2013 08:29 marvellosity wrote: So you're playing for town, which you were pretty insistent in The Game meant you were taking it slow and not making premature cases, wanting to interact before voting etc. You can't use not reading your role PM as part of your defence but then say you'd be playing as you would as town. I definitely can. If I were to not PM peek and then later look and find out I'm scum, I wouldn't have bias in my posts until after that point. And that's very relevant to your case at hand, and what originally made you so irked, no? This is very much about you not believing that claim, so don't pretend it isn't. My play here is a little different from my prior games, and I've already highlighted those differences. I've also shown you how meta analyzing me based on my prior scumgames is pretty bad. That leaves my reads, so I'd like to ask you: what about them do you disagree with? That is my strength, and where the discussion should be. In particular, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about what I recently posted about Dandel. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 21 2013 07:45 goodkarma wrote: What kind of logic is this? Iamp was a strong town read to almost everyone here, and only mason-claimed 7 minutes before the end of the night cycle. It's very possible that the scumteam already planned on killing him, and didn't have time to react. Further, even if they did have time, why wouldn't the scumteam go for the blue? I doubt that there's two town masons in this kind of setup. With that in mind, I'd treat it as a counterclaim. Would you believe Iamp or BH is scum? In other words, BH is very likely getting lynched after iamp's claim regardless of whether iamp lives. So in either case it would make sense for scum to shoot him. That you implicate it's dumb for scum to shoot a claimed blue is very very scummy. There's clear scum motive for this post, and I have trouble visualizing how as town you'd think like this. Combined with your tunnelly and useless play this game, I'd be very interested in lynching you after we lynch BH. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 22 2013 09:11 s0Lstice wrote: Marv (and all)-- This is compelling: I went back and read that exchange and I see what you are getting at. I think it's significant. Building on what I said here... ...I went to look at JJ's filter again to see if it looked like he was scrambling for credit for BH's flip, because I seemed to remember him fighting for it a lot. Bolded is a passive reminder that he's been saying this all along. Also, talking about a DP bus play is just off the wall nuts imo. I see no reason why this thought would cross any town players mind at this juncture...but it could come from the mind of someone who has been thinking 'bus' all game. This is pointed out in the next quote. Another reminder that he has been on BH 24/7. Those speak for themselves. Combine this with what Marv was saying about his attitude: Fighting for credit for bus-->not getting it-->aggressive/attitude It reminds me of how Mattchew was caught in 'I Can't Believe it's Not Themed.' He and sciberbia drove for a lynch of a scum talismania, and scum Mattchew wanted to take credit for it when it was very much irrelevant who did what. I mean, we haven't seen a flip yet, but this fits pretty snugly. BH, JJ, one of Dandel/grush for scum....GK for 3p? I'm in general agreement with this post, except for the 3p thing and that a scum Dandel is far more likely than a scum grush. I have my own thoughts on who might be 3p, but I'll save that for the night phase. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 22 2013 09:57 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh hey, GK. Are you around? Bottom of this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410972¤tpage=88#1752 Answer. If you were to look I discussed in the quote you cited there (literally everything under what you bolded) both that my scumgame would be different and in what way my scumplay would consistently vary from my townplay (strength of reads). It's all right there in my filter... | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 22 2013 11:34 Spicydinosaur wrote: I'm not a huge fan of meta arguments by themselves. If there are meta arguments + substantive claims in the current game then I could go along with it. I think GK is scummy as fuck but for different reasons. Care to elaborate on said different reasons? | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 22 2013 12:37 Spicydinosaur wrote: No response gk? See this is what im talking about with your popping in and out. On May 22 2013 11:48 Spicydinosaur wrote: Not checking your role pm, your popping in and out of the thread and the frequency of your posts is troubling, especially today. Your read on me was garbage, as well as your read on stutters. Your unwillingness to tell us your view on the 3P seems like a stall. Lastly, Rayne was mostly focused on you D1 and now he's dead. All this adds up to you being scummy. ' Thanks for your quick response, but there really isn't much for me to address here. When you mention the role PM thing I'm assuming you're saying you think I was lying, which I've already addressed. My read on you had some very valid points. How is what I said about you garbage when you BLATANLY misrepresent your read on sputnik, and mis-speak who you're talking about on MULTIPLE occasions? At the very least, that is a CLEAR sign of a lack of investment in this game. As for 3P stuff, BH is getting lynched today, and when I do present my case I would like to do it right. I'm not going to rush it because you're angwy. I probably should have just kept it to myself until I post it, as this kind of thing inevitably happens, but rest assured it will be out there long before it needs to be considered for next lynch. As for this popping in and out thing, I don't respond to everything. Especially when arguements I've already replied to are similar to the ones being brought up now (such as stupid meta cases), or the answer to the questions are in my filter but people are too damned ignorant/lazy to look into it. And I may not be the most super-active guy in thread right now, but I'm comfortable with the direction of the game (outside of course this sentiment that I'm scum). Dandel and JJB should be lynched. I will be providing a bit more discussion on Dandel, but JJB has been discussed to death by both myself and others here in thread. And the 3P thing I'll get to during next night cycle. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
As for who to push, you guys are already hellaconfident you have some kind of solid meta-read on me. So it really doesn't matter what I tell you until I flip. Further, you'd have to be pretty bad to not see Dandel is pretty much definite scum at this point. For that reason, I'm not going to make an extensive case or anything. I will be voting him tomorrow (assuming SK doesn't remove me from game), and afk from thread. I'd say to look really hard at the people pushing for my lynch to the exclusion of everything else. Again, Dandel comes to mind. Also look into Spicy. I know many of you for whatever reason think he's town but he's hardcore derped all game. As I said before it demonstrates a lack of investment in this game. Further, he's given an explanation for Rayne's death (I NK'ed him), which considering that pretty much everyone at some point that day wanted me dead seems pretty peculiar to me. There could definitely be no meaning behind who the SK killed, but I'd say it's more likely that there is. Rayne may have been chosen out of fear of him picking up on the play differences of someone he's had a history with, which has JJD come to mind too. All speculation though, so really shouldn't be a primary reason to be lynching people. I'd also suggest you look into people who do things that feel a little off. Like Vayne's vote for me instead of BH felt off to me. Again, though this won't be even possible to you until you either clear your heads and consider a world where I might not be scum, or I flip. A bit rambly, and I really don't feel like editing it like I usually do. Whatevs. At this point, my lynch order would be this: Dandel-->JJD-->Spicy-->Vayne I'd also take a careful look at Solstice. He seems to me to be very on top of staying out of the spotlight. He's contributed, but he definitely isn't sticking his neck out at all. I'm checking out of thread. Cya | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
I've had some time to cool down, and will be back to solve the game when I have time tomorrow. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
Tomorrow is likely LYLO, if there's a tomorrow at all. And so will be pretty much the rest of the game. As such, we should iron out today who's going to be lynched and in what order. Our town leadership keeps dwindling after each night cycle, so coming to a decision ASAP is important. I'll check here frequently to answer questions if someone has some (I think Wave says he has some???), but I'm diving filters now. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
I'm feeling a bit mindfucked right now trying to sort out this mess. I would argue neither of our lynches so far have been super-informative given how they were fairly uncontroversial / unanimous. What I'm fairly confident about right now is that myself (100%), Wave, and DP are town. Grush I'd put as town too, as the starsense thing seems to be his only towntell, and I'll have faith that he won't ruin it for himself. Then of the pool of remaining people I find it a little hard to fathom Solstice playing this well as scum having never played it before. He's stayed uncontroversial / unnoticed for the most part for sure, but he's still been semi-helpful / pro-town for most of the game, as well as fairly active. I'm leaning on him being town, but I could definitely be wrong. Then we have this mess: Stutters/JJD/Vayne/Marv Stutters again has had no scumgame. But what I find peculiar about his play this game is that while he seems to be rather unapologetic about being afk most the time in other games (as best I can tell anyway... I'll confess I skimmed pretty hard here. If I'm wrong feel free to point it out.), here he seems to have conjured up multiple IRL excuses. As though he needs to try extra-hard to validate with us that he's out doing other stuff, and that we need to excuse his inactivity. This just doesn't sit well with me, as well as how he seems to be certain at this point that I'm scum. That felt a bit out of nowhere to me, looking at his past postings. Also, how he made a comment about BH making a second scumslip, saying something like "get him boys." He seems to be taking hard lines when it comes to pushing lynches, which doesn't feel to me to be coming from town. JJD is just so terrible it boggles my mind. He definitely is not in sync with thread sentiment, and is content to do his own thing. I give him some townie points for this, since the kind of brazen stuff he's been doing just doesn't make much sense to me as scum. He's just been drawing soooo much attention to himself. And he's stood by what he's said for the most part. Further, he seemed genuinely investigative about the best move for today. From scum's perspective, SK is a threat that needs to be eliminated. In just about every scenario, I'd see them eagerly jumping onto the chance to get the SK lynched here, so I found that encouraging. You might be thinking why the 180 spin on opinion? He could definitely be scum, in that he is clearly not very up to speed with the thread to be coming to some of the conclusions he has. But being bad isn't the same as being scum, and right now I'm inclined towards believing he's bad town. I've completely re-read every filter and this is my conclusion right now. I mean he could just be a lurky scum with no real concern with keeping up with thread or trying, but bad town feels more likely. As for Vayne, I've already mentioned the BH thing. I don't get how you just say something to the extent of this is wrong, and then try so very little to switch others' viewpoints to your candidate. Instead, you sit there and say something like "this is the most anticipated flip," as in you really don't care if BH gets lynched. Further, that he seems to be unconcerned with the very dire situation we're in now, and that his chief concern seems to be to get me lynched to the exclusion of determining all scum (which is very necessary for us to do at this point) is something I find unsettling. Marv seems to have fallen into complete complacency, which is the exact opposite of what a town Marv should be doing. Further, he's cited who thought he was town as some kind of credential when his play should be speaking to that (a small point, but it stuck out to me). Finally, he doesn't seem to be pursuing scumreads very aggressively. I don't know what this yuck stuff is about, but when town's on the verge of losing, I'd fully expect much more from him. And maybe town Marv can be apathetic, but given we need to work to find ALL THE SCUM, I'd say he's someone to look into. It is very unsettling to me how little he's been doing to turn this around. The scumteam I propose is Stutters/Vayne/Marv. I don't feel super-confident about this, but given everything I've looked at this is the best I have. Please do comment on this. We absolutely need to figure out our plan for the upcoming days now, and not put it off. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 25 2013 19:04 marvellosity wrote: I actually think s0lstice is town, partly from his general play, partly from the really dumb fight he got into with me. As a general note about myself, I'm not apathetic, this is the lynch we need to make today and there's a reasonably decent chance we won't even be here tomorrow to find de mafioso. If we are around tomorrow to do so, then we can look in earnest. I only reference the players who thought I was blates town because it should be pretty obvious I'm town, and it's obvious enough that other players agreed with me. GK's characterisation of my play is terribly weak. Thing is, GK, I can easily make some 1000 word post talking about every player in the game and coming to any conclusion I like. That's really really easy. You continually make these large list posts calling townies mafia. You don't actually push anything for shit, GK. So apparently you get really upset about listposts... This whole "I could make up reads" arguement could easily be applied to pretty much every kind of post, so that's really the bulk of it. A listpost is appropriate here, as if we're around tomorrow, it's almost guaranteed to be LYLO all the rest of the game... We have to figure out the entire scumteam now. So while sometimes people are all angry about listposts giving extra information to scum, "outing townies" or whatnot, it's appropriate here. And this is only the second time I've made a listpost. The first being the night I felt I had a good chance at getting vigi'd, which was also appropriate given I wanted to leave town with my reads. Further, regarding this "your characterization of me is weak" thing: we don't have an obvious scumteam (or we'd have nothing here to discuss), so you being part of a scumteam is a very valid possibility. Instead of getting upset, perhaps you can get in here and share with us your reads. So if you are town we can figure this game out, and maybe not lose. This "you don't push your reads" thing is moreso valid than anything else you brought up. I have been put so hard on the defensive the past few cycles, I really haven't re-geared myself into some kind of read pushing mode. Up until now, really people have more or less ignored most of what I've had to say unless they were pushing a case for me being scum (since like everyone assumed I was scum)... I'll be following up on what those on my suspect list here have said to my recent posting, and go from there. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 26 2013 00:13 Stutters695 wrote: Oh and GK, every game (unless you're reading my newbies) I'm apologetic for having to afk. If anything you could say that I've actually followed through on promises to deliver later where in past games I haven't as a deviation from my town meta(not that I'd consider that bad at all). I'm not sure what you're saying about hard lines on stances, you'd have to elaborate, and read the "get him boys" in context, Marv said spicy was antagonizing BH so I thought I'd jump in when nothing else was going on for laughs. Perhaps I should rephrase this: Did you actually conjure up so many excuses? You had some in prior games for sure, but they're rather prevalent this game. I mean I've seen a rather large number of remarks like this one this game, and it stood out to me as a curious tendancy. It does look like there's some of this in prior games, but they're like everywhere in this one.: On May 26 2013 01:36 Stutters695 wrote: Well rainbow river got scrapped so we're drinking out by the pool instead. I'll be semi inactive but checking in until later. What did you want to talk about? I really don't care if you're off drinking somewhere. What's relevant is that when you're here you are actively scumhunting, and all I've really seen is you have an interest in lynching me... Would you mind laying out what you envision to be the scumteam? I mean clearly it's more than one guy. There's at least three scum, yet I seem to be the only guy you're concerned about... And somehow I'm "sure scum," in which case one would think you'd be devoting your scumhunting energies finding the remaining scum. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On May 25 2013 15:06 VayneAuthority wrote: You know GK if you made more posts like this instead of martyring yourself I wouldnt want to have you lynched, just so were clear on that. As well as your concern for me its nothing that I can really disprove, thats always been my playstyle if you want to look into me. I put down the vote I think has the best chance of winning the game regardless of what others think. If you think I have any sway on this game when everyone takes me as a joke you're out of your mind... as I've said my scumteam is you/s0lstice/WoS/dandel, but now that dandel is SK im reconsidering if its just you 3 or if theres a 4th which I guess doesnt matter if we lose right now. What exactly is this remark supposed to mean? I get that you hate martyrs, I really do. You've remarked on it a few times now, but my understanding is that we're hunting for scum. And this remark seems to imply that you like my post enough that you'd consider me not being lynchworthy, if only I'd make more posts like it? It's a little hard for me to wrap my head around this... So your verdict is I'm scum, but your verdict is that post makes me look town? Perhaps I'm overcomplicating your post here, but it just doesn't feel like you're fully invested in pushing my mislynch with remarks like this one. Further, while perhaps "martyring" is a pet peave of yours, invalidating yourself as useless / "a joke" is something that I look at as a scum trait. What purpose does this remark about you being perceived as a joke have to do with trying to win this game? Absolutely none... What it leaves me with is the feeling that you are trying to invaldate your own play, and as I just said that's a scum trait... Also, apparently WoS is scum in your eyes because he "shit up the thread the moment people started unvoting BH?" From what I read, that looks to be BH's logic. Have you looked at anything he's done past that point, and has that done anything for your read? While we're at it, can you run through exactly how Solstice is scum other than this "my gut tells me so" thing? You're like "please reference my filter" in multiple places... When I look through what I pull up is this: On May 25 2013 12:23 VayneAuthority wrote: GK - ive pointed out a ton of weird things about him from his martyr posts to the 2 RB claims to ATE'ing everytime he gets voted for even if he isnt indefinitely lynched. Hes been playing super defensive all game and I cant believe he isnt lynched yet. Runner-up - s0lstice, I have given some analysis on it earlier in my filter, more of a gut read than anything. And then some really really old stuff from day one. So WoS asked you, and I will too: could you please elaborate on this guy? What also concerns me is that you seem to be taking stances on people as scumreads, and then just sitting on it. Your reads don't look like they evolve much at all as the game progresses, and more stuff is posted... | ||
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