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On May 15 2013 00:48 Promethelax wrote:
I believe that both night kills were from scum (a game this size having less than 2 kp for scum would be really odd unless a lot of it is conditional or something) since I believe that and Oats' post felt like genuine shock that a vig would hit DP I think it is what we call in the business a 'townslip'
Basically a scum seeing those flips we think: oh good, our shots went through. A townie could think: jesus why did another townie shoot my town read who people were talking about shooting. A scum would never think: oh god that would have been such a bad vig shot, the scum knows it was a scum shot.
I don't really know if I can make this any clearer but the above is my reasoning for thinking Oats is town. It made more sense before he continued to be scummy and not act the way I expect a town Oats to act. I'm still leaning on the town side of null for Oats because of the above but I'm not as sure as I was.
That's what I figured the reason was but I wanted to hear you explain it. I guess I don't but much faith in 'townslips' as other people do because assumptions like that don;t seem to do me any good.
Now as far as my problems with Oats being scum:
1) It's basically impossible for Oats and BH to both be scum given their voting. It is possible I suppose for them both to be town. I find both to have done scummy things (whether you think it's OMGUS or not) so I am struggling with this given their behaviour.
2) Oats pickup of Vivax's mistake. This is WIFOM but thinking about it now the mistake was glaringly obvious so maybe a towncred grab rather than town analysis of case?
3) The scumread of VE---I share his problem with VE's lack of activity yet I also know that scum know people will call VE out on this as they do every game. (people know lazy VE = scum VE)
I can't figure out if the town side or scum side of these things is more likely or not.
The rest of his play looks scummy to me, especially the quick flip-flop vote only adding rationale later. This is similat to what BH and Vivax have done regarding voting me except they actually put effort into trying to cook up their post-hoc rationale.
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Prom a question for you.
Why, despite the fact that you were one of the principle factors involved in my scrutiny, did you not toss a vite on me at any point in time?
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I'm pretty sure I'm L-4, but who's counting?
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So that's interesting. I was wondering about the claim of the vote being stolen. What does that mean exactly? Someone has an extra dayvote or the vote is just gone?
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On May 15 2013 01:26 Oatsmaster wrote:
huh, my pm wasnt clear. We can just see who has 2 votes though if that is the case.
Unless its anonymous. Which is probably is.
Prome thoughts on massive list post?
How can it be anonymous if your vote change wasn't? Like...when we think someone is at L-1 and it says so by the votecount they get lynched instead? Because if yours showed as nonexistent then to balance out the extra vote would have to show somewhere.
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On May 15 2013 01:03 Promethelax wrote:
Because I have my vote on OO and based on his lurking I rather like staying it there. Where votes are when we are so far from lynching doesn't matter, we're not near deadline we're not near L-1 on anyone my vote could be on Tommy The Fireman and it wouldn't matter. All anyone I'm pressuring needs to know is that I am willing to lynch them and have the sway with this town to do so. My vote can be anywhere and it doesn't matter to the pressure, note how you've felt pressure without my vote on you?
I certainly have but I have seen the opposite be true in that mafia will often pressure but not vote for fear of their target flipping and they be implicated.
In keeping up with my attitude this game I almost want to taunt you based on your perceived thoughts that you can get me lynched but at this point there is no need to re-ignite scum favoured mislynch fires when we're finally beginning to look at different tracks whether or not we change them.
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On May 15 2013 01:42 shirokami wrote:
if wos is town i want to lynch rayn.
because rayn said wos is town.
lol really Shiro? Not even gonna bother with this.
I had some questions for you:
On May 15 2013 00:14 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 04:37 shirokami wrote:
@Rayn
um I think its because im trying to play without a notepad this time and play based on reading a fuckton of filters and trying to just make an image of the game inside my head.
the votes are on atleast 1 scum at the moment, just trying to think who that is.
I dont like Oats or WoS at the moment. Shiro: You went from OO and Oats to me and Oats to just me. Do you like Oats more right now? Do you think we are bussing? For someone who has professed to be around more this game you haven't done much.
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On May 15 2013 01:41 Oatsmaster wrote:
Im going to sleep.
Please quicklynch WoS so we basically waste a day if he is town(hes not) and we dont really find his scumbuddies if he is scum(he is).
byeeee
Oh and sorry for triplepost but I don't understand how this post is supposed to be helpful in any way.
We're not lynching me today and that's that.
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On May 15 2013 01:52 shirokami wrote:
@WoS
I never went from OO and Oats to you and oats and then just you, rayn asked what I thought about OO and Oats so I answered.
Ok, but the questions still stand.
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On May 15 2013 01:58 shirokami wrote:
bussing who? and no I dont like him more, I just like you less.
Why?
'Bussing' refers to the act of mafia 'throwing other mafia under the bus' to give them town credit. Do you believe that this is what Oats and I are doing?
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On May 15 2013 03:07 Blazinghand wrote:
Blanket inactivity (as in BM who literally hasn't posted) is not on its own a scumtell. these guys will probably be replaced and modkilled anyways.
I find it noteworthy that WoS's posts (at least at first) were trying to cause collateral damage rather than hunt scum. I believe it was Vivax(?) who pointed out that when WoS was close to death as town, he was accepting of it and tried to crank out as much analysis as he could. Where is that WoS, the town WoS? I admit that he has begun waffling on me instead of just blandly calling me scum, but I wouldn't count this as a legitimate point in his favor. I'm playing poorly, WoS? Everything I've done has been well-reasoned and thought out. If you think my thought process is flawed, that's fine-- show me where. If you think my prior assumptions or my observations are flawed, that's also fine-- show me where.
As for statements that I'm being trolly and aggressive as I was in The Game as scum, I'm going to take a moment now to address those. First off, I am generally a wordy and much-posting aggressive player regardless of alignment. In The Game I used a lot of spam and insults to ruin the town atmosphere, and I understand that any aggression from me might be interpreted through that lens. That being said, aggression for me is a key method for how I hunt scum. Many players who have occupied observer QTs with me have noted that my ability to hunt scum from an Obs QT is really bad. Why is that? Well, a lot of how I play involves, yes, prodding people aggressively and gauging their responses.
WoS responded to a push not with trying to figure out what's going on, or discern my alignment, and he definitely didn't respond until he was told to with trying to refine and post reads and help the town. He responded with OMGUS (that he backtracked when he realized it wasn't working), he responded with flames, he responded with general unhelpfulness and damage control for his potential associative tells. I'll admit, at the beginning of the push I was not 100% confident WoS was scum.
Now? I am.
/dunked
See this is how I know you're playing poorly.
You STILL haven't responded to me and have ignored my attempts to figure you out so much that you pretend they don't even exist.
On May 14 2013 03:53 WaveofShadow wrote:Answer my question though, BH. Knowing I have never played scum before at all and knowing what you know about me from past games.Do you honestly think your analysis of me is correct? Because if you do then you MUST be scum because I know you're better than that.
Go on, bro. Dunk me. I'm even helping you along a little! Garner yourself those few more votes if you can. Me, I'ma be doing helpful things.
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@Rayn I like your play this game so much more than other games I've been in with you and it almost worries me. I don't think you could be anything but town atm though.
What are your thoughts regarding VE and Oats' suspicion of him (dropped it once again after thinking he looked scummy without VE having posted anything in between).
I like the case on Oats and since he still hasn't shown up to be useful like I want him to, I'm comfortable voting him. I'm less comfortable with the knowledge that there are scum on my wagon; the problem is I don't know which they are (not that anyone has listened to any push of mine thus far anyway).
I'll hold off my change of vote for a little while though and give BH a sporting chance to try to cook up 5 more people (or however many it is with the Oats vote-stealing thing) since he doesn't seem to want to attempt anything other than be useless and tunnel me all day. If he can't get them soon I move my vote to OO and he'll have to find another person.
CHALLENGE ON
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On May 15 2013 03:33 Blazinghand wrote:
the fact that you've never played scum before is meaningless. it's not like your less likely to roll scum now because you haven't before.
also, you're literally troling this game and not trying to solve it. It's not a damn meta case that you're being a useless omgusing flamer instead of helpful.
That's totally the answer to the question I asked! Thanks BH!
Nope clearly not trying to solve the game at all. You've got me!
/dunked
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On May 15 2013 03:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2013 03:37 WaveofShadow wrote:
@Rayn I like your play this game so much more than other games I've been in with you and it almost worries me. I don't think you could be anything but town atm though.
What are your thoughts regarding VE and Oats' suspicion of him (dropped it once again after thinking he looked scummy without VE having posted anything in between).
I like the case on Oats and since he still hasn't shown up to be useful like I want him to, I'm comfortable voting him. I'm less comfortable with the knowledge that there are scum on my wagon; the problem is I don't know which they are (not that anyone has listened to any push of mine thus far anyway).
I'll hold off my change of vote for a little while though and give BH a sporting chance to try to cook up 5 more people (or however many it is with the Oats vote-stealing thing) since he doesn't seem to want to attempt anything other than be useless and tunnel me all day. If he can't get them soon I move my vote to OO and he'll have to find another person.
CHALLENGE ON I don't like VE atm. Particularly because he called Oats' list "interesting". That says nothing and he has yet to answer my question about it. I totally misread VE last game at first, i need to interact more with him to form a read on him. That's what i'm doing atm. As i said earlier, i like Oats as lynch (although atm i prefer OO). His list contains some weird stuff that's plain out wrong or the conclusions are odd. Other than that his play does not seem like usual Oats town play. I don't think his 180 on VE is a scumtell though, he does that much as town.
I'm trying overall to understand why people may have townreads of Oats especially because of the stuff I pointed out earlier when talking with Prom. You believe a quick 180 is characteristic of a town Oats rather than scum? Doe that also explain is quick 180 read on me? What things do you find odd about Oats?
VE you're not mad enough this game. Get mad about something.
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Lol if VE is tunneling then BH has drilled through the fucking Earth.
VA I have no idea why you think prplhz is scum. There isn't even enough in his filter to go on. Do you find anyone else scummy this game?
Me?
OO?
Oats?
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On May 15 2013 04:00 strongandbig wrote:quick oatsmaster update: I don't like that no one is talking about him T_Tguess i need to be more like bh if i want people to talk about my arguments Anyway I'm gonna do something else so I dont just tunnel him for all of time
question for shirokami: I see you posting a bunch of one-liners about how you agree with bh's case on wos. Could you give me your second best scum read and why? Or maybe read someone else's case on their scumread and tell me why they are wrong?
Same question for vayneauthority except with wos replaced by prplhz.
Responding to a question asked of me: Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 09:07 WaveofShadow wrote:On May 14 2013 07:20 strongandbig wrote:On May 12 2013 19:48 Bill Murray wrote:
hi guys ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7Hbrlxz.png) pubic service announcement bill murray is signed up for this game and also he posted Funny pic is always +1 to town in my book. y u no vote Oats, SnB? I generally don't like to vote until I'm pretty serious about killing someone. I'd like for some more people to tell me what they think about Oats before I decide whether to commit to voting him.
My opinion on someone else that has votes on him: I quite like Sloosh's case on Ryan: + Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 10:42 slOosh wrote:The last votecount should have WoS at [L-6]We need to start consolidating our votes. 6 wagons with a handful of people who I can't recall posting is a recipe for disaster.
I really would like more discussion on rayn than "he is good if not we can kill him later". 1) I have no idea how good he is, and even if he was good, there's no reason to give "good players" a "free multi day pass". 2) This doesn't actually work. In Liquid City Mafia, I was caught and exposed early by BloodyCobbler because of my weak scum play, yet no one actually lynched me. 3) Traditionally mafia KP is based upon mafia #. Lowering mafia # lowers mafia KP. His re-entry into the thread has 3 red flags: Flag 1:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 02:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I agree with Prome on OO. I also do not like OO's analysis on my playstyle in this game. I can't read OO well and after Red Team Prize i have just mostly ignored him. Here i think he is a good lynch.
There is 0 contribution in this post. He sheeps Prome, comments that he doesn't like OO's analysis on himself but neglects to give any concrete proof or explanation, pre-emptively shirks responsibility for making a correct lynch by saying that he cannot read him, admits to ignoring him, and still concludes that he is a good lynch. Flag 2:From memory or reread, look at the people who find rayn suspicious. Ok. Now look at the things / people he chooses to address. Ok. Notice the discrepancy? He totally fails to address me. The one who (arguably) made the most clear cut, straightforward case against him. Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 00:55 slOosh wrote:In light of the DarthPunk flip I went back and reread people's stances on him. Because he had so much spotlight on him, scum would be compelled to make an opinion on him, or at least comment on him. What is important is to see how people justify their suspicions / read on him - town players have straightforward explanations while mafia try to make stuff up. Out of them, rayn sticks out the most: On May 13 2013 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:
It's not optimal. It's stupid or mafia. This is a classic mafia tactic. Push and lynch people for being bad, not scum. On May 13 2013 04:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I mean it's not optimal to claim miller if you don't know the exact number of delf-aware millers. What Hiro said, it only allows mafia to get away with claiming it right in the beginning. If you are town you should never be checked by a cop. Here rayn implicitly calls DarthPunk mafia without actually doing so. He is pushing the idea that because it is "not optimal" that he is scum upon a ridiculous premise. "If you are town you shouldn't be checked". Read that out loud to yourself. It's nonsense. If that was the case then cops would always land red checks. Rayn is justifying his vote with bad (read non existent) reasoning. On May 13 2013 05:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 13 2013 05:28 Vivax wrote:
Rayn what do you make of Kita calling WoS scum without reason and then more or less disappearing? I dunno what to make of it. Maybe he will explain it, maybe not, i'll judge later. I'm more interested in DP defending his claim as "what only townie would do" and then saying he is a good scum player and would never draw attention to himself like that as scum. If he thinks this is optimal town play, why so defensive?And calling people who think claiming miller is scummy stupid/scum is ridiculous. I would atm lynch him based purely on that. Avoiding giving opinions on kitaman(!!!) and draws attention back on DarthPunk. Then proceeds to ask a loaded question. On May 13 2013 05:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 13 2013 05:45 DarthPunk wrote:On May 13 2013 05:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
Only think I don't like about your claim is why N0, DP?
You're calling for us to waste a vigi shot that could be put to possible better use later on in the game. you don't have to shoot now.... Like obviously I don't want to die. I would RATHER be vigged than lynched though. if it comes to that. Hopefully you can all read my alignment by all the posts I am making clearly outlining the reasons behind my actions. How about you stop defending your sole action and start scumhunting instead? Another loaded question, pushing suspicion on him without any justification. ##Vote raynpelikoneet Instead of addressing this primary suspicion on him, he chooses to instead address Vivax's fake - role name business, which wasn't even the primary source of suspicion on him. This is cherry picking; this is sidestepping. Flag 3:False "contribution". I don't remember who said this, but they said they liked rayn's most recent contributions. Well they should read again. Pick out just how many of his posts are questions. Those posts are not alignment telling - scum can do it no problem because it's so easy. In fact I resort to asking questions as scum because it's safe and I know I won't get flak for it, but it makes it look like I'm participating in discussion. You have to look into purpose and motivation behind the questions. The ultimate difference in scum and town is that town want scum dead while scum want to look like they want scum dead. Therefore, the ultimate heuristic in finding scum is to ask "are they actually trying to get scum lynched?" From his filter, rayn's only "meaningful" suspicion is on OO. You can see this because he tries to get people to focus on OO. However, they are in the form of "what do you think of OO? why not lynch him?", when he himself had given no proper reasoning to lynching him. There is no honest effort to make players understand his view of OO. It is uncertain if he actually wants OO (or anyone in particular) lynched or not. Makings of scum play - as long as it isn't scum, they don't care where the lynch lands. Everyone who hasn't, and everyone who has needs to give their updated views on rayn. If you want to push for someone else, you best have something more than a 1 liner saying "he looks bad". Rayne did respond to this but I don't find his response sufficient: + Show Spoiler +On May 15 2013 02:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:First, Sloosh and your case: + Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 00:55 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 13:49 Oatsmaster wrote:
That was the absolutely worst vig shot in the history of mafia Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 13:49 Oatsmaster wrote:
Or scum decided to kill a dude under pressure. How can it be both a bad vig shot and a bad scum shot? This makes no sense at all.
In light of the DarthPunk flip I went back and reread people's stances on him. Because he had so much spotlight on him, scum would be compelled to make an opinion on him, or at least comment on him. What is important is to see how people justify their suspicions / read on him - town players have straightforward explanations while mafia try to make stuff up. Out of them, rayn sticks out the most: Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 04:32 raynpelikoneet wrote:
It's not optimal. It's stupid or mafia. (1)This is a classic mafia tactic. Push and lynch people for being bad, not scum. Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 04:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I mean it's not optimal to claim miller if you don't know the exact number of delf-aware millers. What Hiro said, it only allows mafia to get away with claiming it right in the beginning. If you are town you should never be checked by a cop. (2)Here rayn implicitly calls DarthPunk mafia without actually doing so. He is pushing the idea that because it is "not optimal" that he is scum upon a ridiculous premise. "If you are town you shouldn't be checked". Read that out loud to yourself. It's nonsense. If that was the case then cops would always land red checks. Rayn is justifying his vote with bad (read non existent) reasoning. Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 05:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 13 2013 05:28 Vivax wrote:
Rayn what do you make of Kita calling WoS scum without reason and then more or less disappearing? I dunno what to make of it. Maybe he will explain it, maybe not, i'll judge later. I'm more interested in DP defending his claim as "what only townie would do" and then saying he is a good scum player and would never draw attention to himself like that as scum. If he thinks this is optimal town play, why so defensive?And calling people who think claiming miller is scummy stupid/scum is ridiculous. I would atm lynch him based purely on that. (3)Avoiding giving opinions on kitaman(!!!) and draws attention back on DarthPunk. Then proceeds to ask a loaded question. Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 05:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 13 2013 05:45 DarthPunk wrote:On May 13 2013 05:38 WaveofShadow wrote:
Only think I don't like about your claim is why N0, DP?
You're calling for us to waste a vigi shot that could be put to possible better use later on in the game. you don't have to shoot now.... Like obviously I don't want to die. I would RATHER be vigged than lynched though. if it comes to that. Hopefully you can all read my alignment by all the posts I am making clearly outlining the reasons behind my actions. How about you stop defending your sole action and start scumhunting instead? (4)Another loaded question, pushing suspicion on him without any justification. ##Vote raynpelikoneet 1) No it's not. It's an opinion that i expressed as simple as it was possible. I think claiming miller in a setup where the number (or existance) of millers is not known is stupid or scum. 2) The bolded part you quoted; I think as town you should play as pro-town as possible, right? Cops do not check people they think are town right? I didn't understand why DP, at the start of the game, was worried about being checked by a cop. For me it seemed like he was scum who was afraid of being checked. I hope you get what i mean. 3 and 4) As is said, i unfortunately have limited time. I was not interested in kitaman at that time, i did not know what to make of him calling WoS scum that early in the game, so i ignored it. I wanted to hear more from DP, and wanted him to do something else than to defend himself. Everyone was discussing him at that moment, i wanted to know what else than his claim was on his mind. If i got something else to clarify to you, ask me.
About why i am voting for OO: What Prome said about OO and OO having an explanation to the DP night kill. In top of that DP was suspicious of OO, makes sense. Another thing that's very very odd from OO: OO called me out for meta reasons. I then posted in thread that i have a tight work schedule. What does OO answer: Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 03:04 ObviousOne wrote:
Oh does this mean you are more busy than last game, Rayn? I'll keep that in mind then.
As far as my comment, it's exactly what it said. You asked a shit load of questions last game as town and it worked very well for a) me seeing that we were having similar thought processes and b) you generated a lot of things to analyze by prodding people. I wasn't seeing that from you so far here but if that's due to a change in your schedule then that potentially changes my expectations of town you in this scenario. In my opinion this has nothing to do with meta, at all. If i post less i post less, but i still act as i usually do whatever my alignment is. OO is dropping his meta scum-read on me because of my work schedule. How does that make sense? Right, it doesn't, unless he knows i'm town and made up a meta read on me before i was even able to fully contribute to anything but DP-stuff.
shiro: You are saying that if WoS is town i am scum. How does that make sense? Are you saying i am not able to form town reads on people other people think is scum? I have given my reasons why i think WoS is town, are they bullshit? Elaborate please. Ryan doesn't address two of Sloosh's stronger points: that Ryan is asking more questions than he is making contributions or providing opinions, in such a way as to appear to be contributing without actually contributing, and that he's not engaging with his serious opponents but instead cherry-picking weaker posts to respond to. That said I like that ryan is actually taking a serious look at oatsmaster, who i still think is more likely to be scum.
See this is exactly what I mean. WTF is this? Look at how many of my posts are about Oats. How can I take this fucking game seriously?
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Actually I'm angrier that BH is playing so fucking poor (if town), purposefully making me angry and resorting to tunneling without bothering to do anything else today, and yet very few people seem to realize this (VE did just now).
As for my comment earlier SnB, why does everyone else ignoring me mean you have to as well? If you want to discuss anything I'm right here; no one has commented on anything I brought up about Oats recently. If no one will listen to what I say then I don't see any reason to take the game seriously; it means people will either think what they want about me regardless of the truth, or I am useless.
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See right now, there is literally nothing I could do to prove to BH I am town, which is what makes me angry. He's got the idea in his head, and anything I do and have done since then he is justifying as he pleases rather than look at it objectively.
Once again I challenge the thread: how is this in any way good town play?
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On May 15 2013 04:19 Blazinghand wrote:
WoS literally every criticism I've made of you is valid. I will admit, I haven't offered my thoughts on enough other players since I've been pushing hard for your lynch, but for what it's worth I'm working to rectify that now. That doesn't change that fact that i'm literally right and you're literally scum. you can't just say i'm playing poor when I've already caught scum. You can whine all you want but it's pretty clear you're just trying to fling shit rather than be useful with your final hours alive. Just like a scum.
Just because you ignore my contributions doesn't mean they don't exist, BH.
It's sad there isn't a crane tall enough to reach down into that miles-long tunnel you've dug yourself.
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On May 15 2013 04:19 Blazinghand wrote:
Even if I have been a bit tunnell-ey, once WoS flips scum I will be vindicated of any of his dumb criticisms anyways
I await this day with baited breath. With glee, even.
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EPT
