EPTBoardwalk Empire Mafia: Pick Your Power
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Artanis[Xp]
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Artanis[Xp]
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1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. | ||
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On April 04 2013 22:49 Artanis[Xp] wrote: That's true rayn, the plan does rely on the players that step up to be town. However it isn't a downside because the alternative is using no plan in which case scum can pick good roles anyway. Using this plan doesn't mean that the players that follow the RNG idea are instantly labeled town for the rest of the game. They'd still be under scrutiny. All it does is make it riskier for scum to pick one or two of the roles we consider the strongest for them. was in response to On April 04 2013 22:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't think that's a good idea either. Scum can easily pick good roles for them by "blocking" a good scum role and in LYLO just BAM - ggnore. Also if town blocks a role scum can leave them alive to be WIFOMed to death later. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 04 2013 22:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: I think the best plan is that everyone picks whatever they think it's best for the town. People are anyways going to claim roles later on in the game. Then we figure out if they are lying/telling the truth, is there a town or scum motivation for them to pick the role they did and/or does their explanation make sense from town/scum PoV. Why is that better than the plan I proposed? You wouldn't even necessarily have to go through with the RNG rolling, just claim to. It'll already reduce the chance of scum picking that role. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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Will sleep on it. | ||
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Will give the thread a thorough readthrough in the afternoon. No time now. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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 I've skimmed through it and it was unappealing. It seems the first three people indicated they just want to pick what they want/what 'they think is best for town', which worries me. It means they'll have no accountability. Going down the list, Sinani's indicated the same so I think we can pretty much presume the roleblocking strategy is going to be hard to enforce, unless anyone thinks they can convince VE to pick one. Sinani's filter looked particularly horrible when I just checked it. Are you actually going to play the game or are you content with trolling it? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully. As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY? Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. On April 05 2013 14:00 geript wrote: eh, I don't value investigation roles very highly. If people want to go for them, I'm not going to prevent it. I think that there are just better options available. As for protection roles, the only one I really like is jailkeeper. If you want to post a better list I would love to see it. As a matter of fact I think it would be good for other people to chime in on general draft strategy as it would give some of the slackers a better idea of what to go for. Investigation and protective roles are truly awful for town. Who'd want less KP at night in the game, right? On April 05 2013 15:05 Mocsta wrote: Fair points that are applicable to anyone. Look, though my emphasis is on Rayn, I am not tunneled on him. If he proves his innocence, I will move on. But having reviewed my interactions with him, I am struggling to see how he can even be a remote town read. (From my POV) At best he is null. ==== As an aside, I think holding off lynching candidates in the top 5 draft is terrible: just because there is a risk of lynching a townie that held an awesome role. If someone be scummy, you lynch them. Full Stop. On April 05 2013 15:09 geript wrote: Thank you Moc, now I know that you are town. This post apparently makes Mocsta town. In what world can scum not make a post like this? What is it about this post that makes you read him as this apparent townMocsta? Also, as Mocsta already brought up On April 05 2013 15:50 Mocsta wrote: I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip. Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that. I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess.... On its own it's not lynchworthy, but with how poorly scumript has been playing so far I'd say this adds to the case. Vote scum. Vote Geript. | ||
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On April 06 2013 07:57 yamato77 wrote: Geript is obviously not mafia if you've been reading the game at all. Why? | ||
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On April 06 2013 08:16 Mocsta wrote: Its association because there is no flip. The association was, if Geript is scum; it goes someways towards implicating Keirathi as associated scum (you know, the stuff that was taken precedence over the past 2/3 pages, originated by Caller) But I'm not using it as an association case at all, my main crux of the case was the post I mentioned which has no bearing on Keirathi or Caller or any of that. Look at that post alone and tell me if you see any town motivation in making it. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 08:29 Bill Murray wrote: Artanis is scum with Keirathi GG I'm gonna put in as much effort as you just did. Bill Murray is scum. Now can you comment on the Geript case or are you going to be useless? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 08:27 Mocsta wrote: Geript is a difficult player to work with. + Show Spoiler [Geript fallacies] + His second game on this forum (Mafia LX).. lets just say.. post-game, people decided he needs to be wrapped in cotton-wool. Geript is not stupid; is aware of this perception; and realises to play it to his strengths. Geript also has more balls than ppl give him credit for. The other hard part is: his play is still developing. He just played scum; so has more insight in how to blend in as scum; and also what he values are being a good townie. I just wanted to point out here some context for a publicly considered "fragile" player - a reputation I dont think he deserves. I think there is merit in what you have pointed out, and am paying close attention to his responses. I also find it curious that when defending Rayn, he likes to point out validity in VE strategy as a basis. Soon he proceeds to call out VE for "working behind the scenes", and then later calls him out again for not scum hunting. P.S. its sat morning for me, so I will be back in 10-12hrs. So he's playing to his strengths by saying things that have no town motivation? Please explain to me how that works. Are you saying that like Vivax he rolls scum in 100% of his games regardless of his role PM? If he's so aware of his perception, why does his posting history look so awful? You've basically said in this post that he's better than people give him credit for, yet his post history reeks of scum. If he's good as you say he is then this should ring even more alarm bells. The point regarding VE you make only compounds that, so that makes me wonder. Why so noncommittal? | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 08:41 Mocsta wrote: Stop over analysing the key point i said is "i think there is merit in what you have pointed out" The other stuff was saying, I am not confident on giving a firm read on him due to my knowledge of his play. Henceforth, the watching closely. Dude, whether I agree with you or not; doesnt make me town or scum. It's not the agreeing or disagreeing part that's important, it's how you get to that conclusion and your conclusion didn't line up with the rest of your post. You said you (partially) agree with what I've pointed out, add more to the case, yet only say you'll "watch him closely". I was expecting a more firm conclusion given the rest of the post. | ||
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On April 06 2013 08:50 Mocsta wrote: I cant give him a firm conclusion yet. Its still Day 0; and I need to see him scum hunt more. As I said, there are points of merits; that I want to see responses to. Look, you either think I am scum, or you dont. If you dont think I am scum, than this convo is donig nothing but shit up the thread. If you do think I am scum, and being wishy washy.. by all means, continue. I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 08:57 Restraining Order wrote: I'm not particularily interested in lynching geript. I'm null on him, and he's not a good lynch in terms of policy either. Can you please explain the post I've mentioned countless times from a town perspective? | ||
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Then you'd be null again. | ||
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On April 06 2013 09:25 geript wrote: On phone. Artanis can you explain what you find so scummy about my filter if it is not just the quotes you posted in your mini case? Asking people whether you can sheep them isn't exactly the height of taking responsibility. Antagonizing people that refuse to play along with your plan because they want to approach the game in a different way, single line comments about players you find suspicious then asking other people what they think about them rather than fleshing out your own opinion, all the while focussing on your own plan. I'd rather you reply to the mini case I made though as it contains the stronger points. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 06 2013 09:36 gonzaw wrote: Artanis, do you believe your own case and "push" of geript....or are you joking? What does it look like? I'm not joking. How about 'enlightening' me if it's such a 'joke' to you? | ||
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On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote: @ArtanisXp I would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] + On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully. As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote: Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this? WHY? Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] + On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote: Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play? No, I don't flip-flop on your alignment as all. I'm very specific in what my conclusion is and my thought process towards it is explained. I could've just posted that I thought you looked town now, and you'd ask me "why?" and then I'd say the same thing. I just saved us two posts of meaningless banter. Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. Because you asked me a very specific question, which was my reasoning why I was questioning you. I'm explaining my thought process so you can follow it. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
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On April 07 2013 15:52 gonzaw wrote: 1) Introduction: Ah yes. I've been keeping an eye out on Artanis for a while. I've noticed him when I made this post. What I had noticed, was how Artanis tried to be part of discussions. Here's the thing. Players like yamato, rayn, maybe Sharrant, etc, started discussing how to make draft picks. Other players straight up didn't say much about it or said they didn't care much, like Keirathi (I believe), Meapak, etc. The "active" ones that were discussing things though, did so in a productive manner. They proposed plans, they discussed them, they argued with each other about their benefits and criticisms of others. They posted thoughts on other people's plans and thoughts. Most importantly though: They tried to put effort in their posts, while still trying to be productive. Artanis certainly did seem to put effort, but didn't seem to try and be productive How is pushing my RNG plan not productive? I kept bringing it up even when people ignored me because I thought it was a good plan. I pushed it when people weren't discussing it and asked people how they felt about it. I commented on the Yamato plan and why I disagreed then improved upon it. You're giving a very distorted image of my day-1 play here. So let's start this kay? Bring it. 2) "Hiding in plain sight" via setup discussion: One of the reasons I had an early town read on Meapak....was just how he took the words out of my mouth regarding Artanis. First, here are some posts for reference (you can always just check his filter, 1st page): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#191 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#195 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#196 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=13#256 Here's the thing. These posts just scream "I'm trying to contribute with setup talk!" to me. For instance, take yamato's filter as comparison. See how he approaches the discussion about role picking. Now check how Artanis approaches said discussion. Artanis seems to be putting up an appearance. He seems to be posting just for the sake of discussing setup stuff. He posts just to be active, or so it seems. He even tries to come up with a "plan" of his own, with the RNG stuff! Scum love to do this as well. I'm not trying to contribute, I am contributing. So contributing makes me scum? Okay. I don't see the putting up an appearance at all. I read the thread, had an idea and pushed for it. I'll go back and mention something I've posted before: When I was talking about those "possible first scums", I was talking about Artanis primarily. This is a fact: Artanis chimed in with the setup discussion, and even proposed a "pro-town plan", yet he had absolutely no impact in the game at all. He was just a passenger in the thread discussion about plans, coincidentally something scum love to do. Compare that to other player's, like yamato, Mocsta, rayn, or geript, who cared about the discussion and the outcome from it. You can't say the same thing with Artanis There are some people that acted similarly regarding plans, but not to the extent Artanis did IMO, and even some of those have other qualities about their play that make you have a completely different read on them (austin, Keirathi and maybe even RO spring to mind) So I'm scum for contributing but not getting my idea through despite asking numerous times. You could also consider the option that everyone wanted to get their own ideas through, plus the distraction of interaction between people who said they didn't like plans and just wanted to pick their favourite roles made it so that no plan actually got through, not just mine. I really don't see how you can hold that against me. 3) Unnecessary complaints that happen out of place: Here I find an unnecessary complaint about the thread. Unnecessary in the sense that he seems to mention just to mention it. It serves little purpose other than complaint. They seem out of place and happen too often as well. This seems a little fake to me, because I don't think a townie would spend so much time to complain about it in so many different places. Nobody else did, bar maybe Vivax at some points (but those didn't feel so out of place either, specially since at least Vivax expanded a little bit on why he was complaining). He's just complaining, specially those last 2 posts, just for the sake of complaining, and most importantly, for the sake of appearing he's active and contributing something. By doing stuff like this, he's hiding in plain sight. That last post makes me a little suspicious about him. Why? First he discredits what's going on in the thread by complaining about it being filler. Then he posts a wishy washy read on Oats. Then he posts some fluff about the draft plans, and even mentions his plan even more. Just look at that, "...the RNG option,.. which I still believe is the strongest...." . Even when talking about the plans he has to mention how HIS plan is the best, he has to mention how much he contributed to the thread by posting a super-duper plan, right!!? Yes, I am complaining because I hate big games and I got busy since the time I signed up. So you can see me pushing my plan here once again, yet I'm supposedly just talking to put up an appearance. The pushing of my idea has a very clear objective. I want people to talk about it. Those 2 last posts of his are total fluff, specially with some of his reads (on Oats, sinani and VE). Those posts scream "I'm trying to cram as much stuff as possible that makes others think I'm contributing!". He crams so much bullshit in so little space, yet he has no time to do anything else? He has little time to comment on other stuff, or interact with people, be part of discussions, etc. I've found scum do this the most. They have a single post where they cram some shit into it trying to compass different topics, posting fluff and filler, then just let it be that. They don't expand on those points, don't interact with others, don't participate in discussions willingly and without pressure, etc. With those last 2 posts Artanis does this, which I find suspicious. I thought scum wants to say very little with a lot of words. Guess it's the other way around when you have a scumread on someone. I'm being as informative in as little words as possible because A) I'm lazy and B) The thread is already cluttered up enough. Also, what I've found from post-game talk, you can make your point very clearly with a short post and convince others with it, like Syllogism did in Fruity Mafia. It takes up much less energy and you can convey your thoughts just as well. That I'm not very good at it yet just means I'm not experienced with it yet. 4) The geript case: At this time I think it was when I was telling myself "Okay, Artanis seems suspicious to me, but I'll wait before pressuring him and see what he does"... ...and that "case" is what he does indeed. Firstly, I don't know if I am the only one, but when I was reading the thread I had the feeling geript was likely town, with the way he proposed his plan, the behaviour of his, etc (right now I can't really post many reasons because I had these feelings some days ago and haven't checked geript since, but these were indeed my feelings then). Second, let's dwell into the case. That first part is horrendous. Even worse than VE's "RO called Oats out therefore is scum!" part from his case. So, let's see if I get this straight: geript has specific knowledge of Mocsta's town play he uses as a heuristic he knows himself and nobody else does. He mentions this to Mocsta so Mocsta knows he's watching him. Then mocsta does this apparently, and geript tells him he "passed the test". Basically, geript knows something Mocsta always does as town, and thus is waiting for him to do it this game, to get a better read on him. Sounds pretty normal right? And at worst null, right? Well apparently not to Artanis Look at his god damn formulation and tell me that isn't wishy washy as fuck. Seriously, read over it and say it in your head. It put up some serious red flags in my head, and I didn't see a town explanation. I still find Geript's explanation for it mediocre, but his general attitude towards the case as well as his other posts since then have made my suspicions wane. I also presented my suspicions a bit stronger than they were because I wanted people to actually pay attention to them. That's something I've learned from Promethelax when he convinced me to post for Vivax after I had called Vivax town in Empire Mini Mafia II. This post specifically still haunts me, and it's something I want to learn from. I just can't believe Artanis is serious with that accusation. It seems he saw something random from geript and decided to use it against him without even thinking about it, it's the only explanation I can find. His next part in the case is something irrelevant about some comment geript made about setup speculation (which is and should be null at worst) If that comment doesn't put red flags in your mind then I'm not sure what else I can say. It definitely did for me, which is why I confronted people with it every time. And...that's it? That's his "case"? Oh wait, he mentions that "geript thinks Mocsta is town" bit again, and even mentions the "scumslip" (which is obviously not a scumslip for anyone with 2 brain cells). The "scumslip" bit was just padding to the case, it wasn't the main focal point. It's the said post that I found very odd. I did half-seriously ask him if he was joking...to see if it maybe was a "bait" case to get info on geript... ...but it wasn't, meaning Artanis seemingly believed his own case, and I can't believe a town Artanis would do so. But that's wrong. It IS something I believed in. 5) Aggressive "fake" behaviour: After he posts his case, his "push" of geript seems too fake too me. He seems aggressive out of nowhere for no reason He's being needlessly aggressive in my mind. The way he posts seems fake too me as well. He seems to antagonize everything, specially when he starts arguing with Mocsta He doesn't show a mentality of "I want to figure out the alignment of this player", he shows an mentality of total confrontation and wanting to paint geript as scum no matter what Mocsta keeps arguing with Artanis about stuff, yet Artanis can only think of how to make geript look as scum even more. It's called pressure. You might've heard of it. If I posted "hm, I still kinda think Geript is scum but I'm doubting about it." would there be any pressure left? No, he could sit back, relax, and answer things thought out thoroughly. I wanted him to react with his gut, and he showed a mindset that made me think twice. There's also this. I share yamato's opinion here, and I think some others did as well I'd say other townies did as well. Artanis didn't.....let's take a guess why shall we? He then backs off geript, but I think it's weak. He spent so much time and effort discrediting and accusing geript, to then just brush off saying "I still don't like your posts pre-VE case Geript..." ? That's not how he came out at all, he didn't "not like geript's posts", he apparently thought geript was obvious scum incarnate and went guns blazing against him. That just doesn't feel right and seems like a half-assed way to back off geript See the part before. 6) Other stuff: Some other stuff that make me wary....is basically how everybody is ignoring him. He is indeed flying under the radar, and was until Meapak called him out. Yet even Meapak has "forgotten" about him now Not only that, right now there are eight different players being voted, yet nobody votes Artanis, yet nobody even talks about him. I'd think scum would love throwing some dirt on town Artanis now to create even more chaos and have even more "candidates" in the table to confuse town...yet they don't. He's also AFK now for like 24 hours. I won't take that much into consideration since it must have been some IRL issue. You may realize a similar method I did in my last game. Last game (MTG Mini Mafia 2), I had a scum read on Aperture, but basically didn't mention him at all for a while and put him under 0 pressure for 24 or so hours (or more). I saw that nobody mentioned him, nobody casted suspicion on him, and he kept flying under the radar not contributing and doing shit. That instantly told me he was scum (if he was town he wouldn't do shit all when under no pressure, and if he did, scum would love to cast suspicion on him, which they didn't). I tried doing something similar here. That method worked out in the past (Aperture was scum)....I'll let you figure out the rest. Yeah, scum never mentioning their scumbuddies is a great way to play a game. WIFOM at its finest folks. | ||
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On April 07 2013 21:54 Vivax wrote: Artanis still think geript is scum? Comments on VE and his RO case? I still hate his earlier posts but everything since that has been good so I have no intention of lynching him at the moment. His case on RO is meh. I like the point regarding town reads that he'd suddenly like to get lynched, but that's about it for that case for me, and RO responds alright to it. He's also paranoid of everyone and everything which is generally a town trait. | ||
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On April 07 2013 22:09 Oatsmaster wrote: Artanis do you have reads? defending yourself is fine and all but I prefer reads. I'm going to spit through this game more thoroughly tonight and give you something more in depth then. On April 07 2013 22:36 Mocsta wrote: Not really. Other than: Its classic scum retort. Blow out of proportion the small details and glance over the important stuff. What important stuff didn't I address then? | ||
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On April 07 2013 22:43 Mocsta wrote: I take that response as an admission to blowing the small stuff out of proportion  BTW. I'm not here to convince u that u r scum. And ur reply reenforced what I already was sure of. U r scum So this discourse is going no where. P.s. everyone prefers townies that scumhunt instead of contribute by defending. Best of luck with that. gnite. You're taking it entirely the wrong way. I'm asking you what according to you I didn't properly address. I think my response was fine. Also, if you're actually interested in finding out my alignment then you'd be continuing in this discourse. The only people who are sure of alignments are scum, so my question is: Why do you not want to continue? I'll get to that tonight. Right now I plan on doing other things. | ||
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I don't think Geript is scum at this point. | ||
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VisceraEyes Defensive play, agrees with a lot of things in the thread. Seems complacent. The only game I remember that I played with VE was LI in which he was in everyone's face as scum. I also observed his play in Hydra Mini Mafia which he gave up in as soon as he got caught. This game feels like neither. He created a bad case on RO. Rereading Geript's case on him however does show a few valid points that point towards VE being scum which he never answered. Rather than defending himself, VE started attacking people that jumped on the wagon which isn't alignment indicative to me, as it's a both a valid way of finding scum and an easy way to dodge responsibility. However, I don't like his 180 going from his initial read of RO to Deconduo over one post that really didn't mean much. Leaning scum. Vivax Vivax is Vivax. In all previous games I've played with him he's rolled scum, but sometimes the host accidentally flipped him green. This game I feel like he's playing better than any game he's had before. There's still Vivax moments of trying to be right where everyone else is wrong, but he's being cooperative. I see no reason why he wouldn't stick to his unreadable meta if he rolled scum. Town. Restraining Order The case on him was weak. Has done fairly little, but nothing that suggests a scum or a town mindset. Null on him. Keirathi Seems willing to want to figure the game out. Small thing that bothered me was that he had a plan regarding people picking roles to counter scumpicks, yet also advocating that everyone just picks the roles they want. Other than that, he's had a very constructive attitude and has been scumhunting and paranoid. Likely town. Palmar Has a hilarious plan, never actually goes anywhere with it. Trolls around all game. Throws a few accusations but never substantiates them. Says BM is scum but never goes anywhere with it, then jumps on the VE wagon as soon as he notices no one else is putting in the effort to get BM lynched. After checking out RED Team's Prize (where he was blue) he always pushed his own ideas. He asked people what they thought, but nothing that came close to sheeping. He's a lot more disinterested than what I've seen in that game. Leaning scum. Shelvocke His filter is fairly empty. His D1 plan was "pick whatever you like" then never actually pushed it. Rather than contributing to plans, he just calls all of them bad. Spends a lot of time on setup talk then jumps on the VE wagon as well. He never replies to the case made on him or any suspicion laid on him at all. Avoiding responsibility for his reads. There's really nothing in his filter to suggest towniness. Scum. Raynpelikoneet Contradicted my RNG plan without a real reason. Nominates himself as towniest very quickly. Calls everyone that pushed ideas town. Randomly passes by scumreads whilst only having talked about setup before then, doesn't explain why. Massive amount of oneliners that clutter up the thread and say very little/nothing. His paranoia and flailing about in the last two pages of his filter make me hesitant, but still leaning scum. Strongandbig Basically did nothing until mid D1, but I like this post. Pointing a lot of fingers at people for good reasons. Leaning town. Deconduo Playing a fairly timid game, but I can follow his thought process very well. It's hard to really put a finger to, but all his posts speak to me from a town viewpoint and VE's reason for voting Deconduo feels weak. I'm willing to vote for VE, Palmar, Shevlocke and Raynpelikoneet, with a preference for Shevlocke. | ||
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On April 08 2013 16:56 Mocsta wrote: Artanis[Xp] Want to give a read on Vivax pl0x. Even though this comment was a figure of speech, Vivax is in this game. I don't think Vivax is scum. I said that in my read summary earlier today. Also anyone that thinks I'm more suspicious for the flip (I'm looking at you Yamato) is being dumb. Assassin seems like the only way to kill town in this way. Can't be NRA since Gonzaw was still talking about who to hit, and the day vig requires you to post in thread. So apparently, scum knew that Gonzaw was a Jack. He also had a lot of town presence and discussion formed around him. How is killing a town leader with a strong role not reward enough on its own? I doubt it has anything to do with whether he was on the right track or not, it's simply a good kill that will disorganize town and have them waffling about stuff that isn't scumhunting. Shelvocke unvoting me out of nowhere.. is strange. I can't wrap my head around it. Why do so when I was his main scumread? Regarding OO's meta case, it's pretty awful. Correlation does not imply causation. My scum game is similar to this game because it was also a large game and I hate large games. With small games it's much easier to get a feel for everyone in the game. The reason I'm posting less is because I'm less motivated in large games, not because I'm scum. Yamato, you just said that the death of Gonzaw doesn't guarantee anything but the death of a town player. Then why was your first response "Now we definitely kill Artanis"? You're drawing conclusions from his death instantly, yet you showed unwillingness to draw conclusions from it just now. | ||
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The basic level is that they figured out Gonzaw was a jack and that gonzaw is a strong town player. There is no more motivation needed, anything else is a bonus. Especially since I'm not actually scum and it gives a great argument to push my lynch home. The timing is convenient as well. Give gonzaw plenty of time to hammer his point through rather than immediately after his case to make sure it's still on everyone's mind. Come on Yamato, think critically here. | ||
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You're also forgetting that Gonzaw had a vig shot and he wasn't planning on using it on me. Now that's a far more likely for a shot. My lynch is unlikely to be prevented by a Gonzaw death, but his vig shot is certain to be nullified. | ||
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On April 08 2013 17:43 Mocsta wrote: Wifom at its best sir. Firstly. As I pointed out prior. To those role hunting. Gonzaw outted himself about 12hrs ago. Yes the reasons u listed are completely valid reasons to kill him. Its also possible they waited for an opportune time. U know. 2 birds 1 stone. But ultimately as yam pointed out. There is no way to ascertain when the kill order was given. So its all wifom. Hence ur point with timing is wifom. And the points against it are just as wifommy. I'm not saying his death makes me town. I'm saying it definitely doesn't make me scummier, perhaps even a slight bit townier for the part I just posted. Simple take is. He dead and scum assassin confirmed in the game. Its a popular role, so could even surmise its in the top 8 picks. I agree with that notion. P.s. I re read your filter. My thoughts haven't changed. And in hindsight, ur plan wasn't that pro town. U only wanted one or two ppl to RNG, at their liberty. Actually, that was at the start. Later I figured I wanted as many people as possible to claim to RNG. They wouldn't actually have to RNG, just to put that fear into scum's heads. It's a better plan than doing nothing for sure. And importantly, u even said it was only relevant if the yam plan got traction. Yeah u pushed it a couple times, but considering u were aware it success hinged upon the traction of something else. Its not even a good plan at face value. No I didn't, I said it was an objective improvement upon Yamato's plan, and a plan with no drawbacks. Later I campaigned for it saying there are no downsides for it and had a small argument about it with Rayn I believe. Lastly, in ur gonzaw defends. I'm having a very hard time believing u when u state u overplayed the geript case more than u felt it was worth. To me it felt like u were banking on it pretty hard. Read the Promethelax post I linked in my defense. Look at how I responded to it. I'm trying to learn from it, and I think I did so successfully since it made me go from leaning scum on him to leaning town due to said pressure. Second lastly, u said u was going to scum hunt. All I have seen is a large list post, nominating some as scummy. With zero followup or pressure. I was working on making a spreadsheet and diving through everyone's filter one by one but that took too much time so I decided to read up on everyone who had a vote today since I figured that was more important. My conclusions have been posted and the cases for those I found suspicious have already been made. | ||
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On April 08 2013 17:48 Mocsta wrote: What's ya point artanis. Your conclusion is ur death won't be prevented. So why argue whether yam thinks u sscummier post gonzaw. Sounds to me like u trying to shit up the thread Because I think it's a bullshit reason and I'm calling people out for voting on me for bullshit reasons. Are you not interested in people jumping on my bandwagon, or is anyone that votes me automatically town? | ||
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On April 08 2013 17:50 yamato77 wrote: Fine, let's talk about something else. What's your read on Sinani? Hadn't checked on him yet. Just browsed through his filter and it's dreadful. His only post that says anything is awful as well. On April 07 2013 14:48 sinani206 wrote: I first want to say that this thread is spammed up to almost the point of unreadable... This is not how Town wins games. Secondly, out of the current lynch candidates, here are my opinions: VisceraEyes: I was leaning scum before and he hasn't really done anything to change my mind besides participating a little bit more. To be on the safe side, I'll say null with a red tinge. Keirathi: Null atm, nothing pointing him at being scum, but don't want to say definitely townie so soon. I just played in RTP with him and he seems to be playing rather similarly, so if I had to pick I'd say town. Restraining Order: Very difficult to read, so I'll wait to see more of him and on him. StrongandBig: Actually looks like he could be scum. Playing very differently than he did in RTP and I agree with the cases made on him. He seems to be playing a typical earlygame conservative scum strategy, skirting discussion and leading people in the wrong direction. I'll slap my vote on him for now. ##Vote: StrongandBig Why is he trying to be safe? It looks like he's trying hard to not call VE scum despite everything he typed prior to it leading up to it pointing towards wanting to call him scum, then calls him null in the end. Very questionable, and I'm curious to hear what he has to say about S&B since he's returned to the thread, something Sinani's conveniently ignored despite posting after S&B returned. He's just not bothered to comment on it altogether. Yeah I don't like Sinani at all. | ||
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On April 08 2013 17:54 Mocsta wrote: I will come back to u later artanis when I have comp access. BTW, u dodged my query about pressure/follow up with ya scumspects. I don't care who u think is town or scum. I care how u go about scum hunting. I didn't. I said that I was working on a spreadsheet but it was costing me too much time which I didn't have, so I went for what I did instead. Even though they're "summaries" they came from digging into their filters. I reached my own conclusions. On April 08 2013 17:56 Mocsta wrote: No. But yam is town regardless of voting u. Frankly I'm surprised u aren't reacting to bill Murray. That was a scummy as fuck vote if I seen one. Yet here u antagonise a player u know will bite back. Henceforth: shitting up the thread No one is confirmed town, stop being dumb. Reads change all the time. I'm reacting to people who are in the thread right now and things I find suspicious about them. | ||
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On April 08 2013 12:14 Bill Murray wrote: Sinani, how can you sheep my case, then ask for me to be shot? Questions Sinani, never follows it up with anything. Though Sinani hasn't returned to the thread yet since this post, it's a valid question and it's strange how the following happened literally an hour later. BM was willing to investigate first, asked someone a question then an hour later he's sheeping Mocsta and Yamato and claims he didn't read the thread. Sounds more like an excuse to dodge responsibility. I'm not liking BM, but BM is BM which makes me hesitant. He would make an excellent vig target, though. | ||
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On April 08 2013 18:25 Mocsta wrote: This puts me in a quandry; I can't see scum leading a bandwagon on another scum. Artanis, are you going to be online in 4 to 5 hrs time? I should be home at 5pm CEST and have some time then. I should be working right now honestly. | ||
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On April 08 2013 18:31 Mocsta wrote: i dunno wat 5pm cest means heheh its 5:30 here, and im afk for next 3-4 hrs There's a convenient timer for you at the top right corner. | ||
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On April 08 2013 20:53 Caller wrote: stop goznaw got shot to me logical explanation is simple: artanis is a day vig and from the looks of things is going to be lynched, but he wanted to use his power before he died. That's it. artanis claims before we lynch him. that's all that needs to be done. Artanis, claim. I claim that you're being an idiot if you think scum needed any more reason to shoot Gonzaw than knowing his role, knowing that everyone thinks he's town and knowing that he can shoot into scum. P.S: He wanted to get me lynched, not shot. How about taking a look at the list of players he was considering shooting into? | ||
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On April 08 2013 21:07 Restraining Order wrote: People scared of claiming, when the assassin has already shot.. And since with mafia already having the assassin, they'd also pick one of the numerous rolecop options. So, he'll be able to shoot every day regardless of your claiming. Just saying. If I have a strong role, claiming can get me into all sorts of shit and get me roleblocked or roleswapped or whichever. If I have a defensive or detective role, claiming will make sure I can't trust my findings or get killed. If I have no role, claiming would be incredibly dumb because I'd want to soak up a hit at night which would no longer happen. No matter how you slice it, claiming is dumb. I still want to lynch Artanis, more than ever. Fuck the stupid wifom defenses some of you guys come up with. Solid case bro. Tell me, if you were in a scumteam would you need more than the reasons I underlined to shoot someone? Really? VE also still scum. I'm not sure how good the reasons to think he's NRA are, but I'd worry about that tomorrow. Today is Artanis-day. I'm happy to see VE die as well, but today is definitely not Artanis-day. Also I looked up Vivax' meta, Oats. I don't think he's scum. His OMGUS on you and the fact that he didn't put any pressure on anyone in the early game other than that rubs me the wrong way, but he's been picking it up since then and showing the stream of consciousness that I'm used to seeing from a town Vivax. In his LX scum game he had a lot of small posts with no real meaning and large posts whenever he thought it was time to make it look like he was contributing. His posting style in this game is very different from that. | ||
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On April 08 2013 21:56 Restraining Order wrote: It's not about NEEDING more. But if there ARE more, a mafiateam would gladly take it. In the end, this is a horrible point. I understand why you want to argue it, since it goes against you strongly, but that doesn't make it a good one by any stretch. Au contraire. No, that's dumb because if scum will shoot him 100% of the time for the reasons I stated then any potential extra reasons are completely moot. Did you read LVIII? Let's talk about who you want to lynch instead of yourself. You only defending yourself, it's getting boring. Why are you not pushing Shelvocke hardcore yet? I read LX and British Empire II. I'm talking about the people that I'm questioned about. Shelvocke hasn't even replied to any of this: + Show Spoiler [He's responded to none of this] + On April 08 2013 06:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Shelvocke His filter is fairly empty. His D1 plan was "pick whatever you like" then never actually pushed it. Rather than contributing to plans, he just calls all of them bad. Spends a lot of time on setup talk then jumps on the VE wagon as well. He never replies to the case made on him or any suspicion laid on him at all. Avoiding responsibility for his reads. There's really nothing in his filter to suggest towniness. Scum. On April 07 2013 10:57 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Alright so like I said earlier, I have a pretty strong scum read on Shevlocke and here’s why. What do these posts have in common? They are all worthless. Now this wouldn’t be such a problem except that he also has these posts: So there have been two options to speculate about worthless things so far (picking plans and who got what numbers), and shevlocke has jumped on them both. Does he have any reads? Thus far his one “scum read” is VE . His argument against VE is “he’s faking contributions by talking about irrelevant things” this is exactly what shevlocke himself has been doing which is ironic. So let’s quickly review, shevlocke has posted about both of the worthless topics the thread has discussed so far. On top of that, he accuses his only scum read of doing exactly what he himself is doing. Shevlocke is doing his best to blend in by providing “opinions” on the things that don’t matter and his one read is completely worthless. We’re not too far into day 1 but I want shevlocke’s name out there as a lynch candidate. On April 07 2013 11:43 austinmcc wrote: I'm actually really digging that Shelvocke read. Yes, most of the posts are worthless, but the VE vote feels weak as well. VE isn't reading/is faking a contribution. This can be scummy, but at this point in the game there are A LOT of players who fit that criteria. The second bit, VE being...hypocritical because he often is ridiculous and is suggesting people not be ridiculous is just dumb. I'm often an idiot. I don't suggest other people are. Some players are confusing/lurky, they don't suggest that other people be confusing/lurky. Heck, the VE personality in Personality 2 just poked at VE's claiming, which, if anything, should reinforce the idea that VE might not recommend to others that they play how he has in certain past games. Half that two sentence read is just...badwrong. The other half is true of a number of players, with no reason given why VE is singled out. And ze vote? 24 hours later. Not important because he didn't vote earlier, he couldn't, but important because discussion of VE has popped up here and there throughout the thread during those 24 hours. Shelvocke, who has really only called out VE at this point (apart from asking gonzaw if his secret scumread was snb (which he now adds to)), doesn't seem to care about anything that's been posted about/by VE during those 24 hours. Note that he HAS followed up on snb, looks to have reread snb before making that post. But his vote post on VE has more meat, more indication that Shelvocke is scumhunting, when he brings up snb, not VE, who he is actually voting for. Do not like. ##Vote: Shelvocke Since then, he's made a horribly reasoned vote on me. On April 08 2013 07:38 Shelvocke wrote: I like gonzaw's case. Artanis's stuff on geript does looks unnecessarily agressive and fake. I'm voting for him. ##Vote Artanis[Xp] Randomly goes back to the Geript stuff which happened ages ago yet he never cast suspicion on it back then. He never even mentioned it. On April 08 2013 16:05 Shelvocke wrote: Read my filter: + Show Spoiler + On April 07 2013 15:33 Shelvocke wrote: I don't really think rayn is mafia. His play does look different from those town quotes you had, but it doesn't look like that mafia game either. The only part of that game where he just suddenly jumps is the part where he votes for Krefla and even then he has a reason because Krefla just came in right before the deadline. The fact that he seems a lot more impulsive in this game than he has been before is something that points to him being town. I feel he would be a lot more careful and safe as mafia. The plan switch looks kind of strange, but his overall attitude makes him more likely town. On April 07 2013 15:52 Shelvocke wrote: I get what you're saying, but I've never seen a new mafia player be so crazy. I don't really understand the reasons for some of the stuff he does but it seems to me that he sees one post and then just makes up his mind based on that. Usually new mafia are much more safe and concerned about their appearance. It's possible he's some kind of mafia gosu but frankly that's not the impression I get from him. Something about this situation really strikes me the wrong way. There was still plenty of time left in the day and an Artanis lynch was nowhere certain. Like shooting gonzaw pretty much guarantees an Artanis lynch and I can't think of a good reason for mafia to do that if Artanis is mafia. I'm rereading the thread right now. Not entirely sure who to kill right now, but it's not Artanis. ##Unvote Randomly doesn't want to vote for me anymore because of WIFOM. What On April 08 2013 17:18 Shelvocke wrote: I think yamato shot gonzaw. I can't prove it, but it's the explanation that makes best sense to me right now going by people's reactions. I'm not entirely sure if he's the kind of person who would do that as town, but just skimming through the last normalish town game of his (Town Aint Big Mafia), I think it's entirely possible. Going to sleep on this, but that's where I'm at right now. The fuck? None of this makes any sense as town. Randomly unvoting me because of WIFOM, randomly accusing Yamato of shooting Gonzaw when Yamato has been agreeing with Gonzaw, it just doesn't make any sense from a town viewpoint. He's been afk for the rest, and all the times he was here he's played scummily. | ||
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On April 08 2013 22:18 Mocsta wrote: Artanis if you have the time for meta reads. Perhaps the best game to flick through is "The Game". Vivax was a blue vig; but in particular took on a completed revamped play style with more focus in general. Its also worth considering he is smurfing as "Ghor" in "Ego Mani or Noir, i cant remember. Obviously alignment is not known however. =============== Let me know when your ready to chat, and I will muster a couple questions for you. I really don't, I've been at work for the past 6 hours and I haven't done a single productive thing here yet lol. Fire the questions whenever ready and I'll answer them shortly. | ||
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On April 08 2013 22:49 Mocsta wrote: Artanis[Xp] Lets put the past behind us, and have a fresh start. The questions I wanted to ask prior, for whatever, I dont want to ask anymore. So hopefully these ones are still of value. (1) RO was the person who introduced the concept of VT claiming. In more detail: it was claim what role you tried for, if you became a VT. - the idea was to determine scum power roles. With hindsight (i.e. assassin in the mix): Does this alter your perception of RO? It's a meritious point. Finding out which roles are in the game will help scum figure out the game more easily and use the assassin role properly. An additional point supporting this hypothesis is that DI has claimed that scum would probably get a rolecop with the role, whereas I see many options available for them not to pick a rolecop with this setup. It would only really aid their assassin and it's likely that roles will get outed at some point. His conclusion is premature and potentially damning considering this and the fact that he was so willing to sheep people to avoid responsibility. (1 Corollary) I supported RO idea of forced VTs(At the time) Does this affect your opinion of me? I would consider your support to be potentially scum motivated, but on its own it doesn't say much as it helps both town and scum to figure out the game. There have been other posts by you that I have found questionable, but your overall game has been town oriented to me. You seem to be willing to figure the game out and you could've easily wagoned on me and no one would've found it suspicious. (2) You posted prior that you like a Sinani lynch. Is this a lurker "stab in the dark" lynch; or do you think there is enough content in the filter to warrant a justified scum lynch? I've thought about it and I don't like a Sinani lynch at this moment. I'd prefer a vig shot rather than wasting time discussing him since he seems to not be willing to provide any information that would help to find out his alignment. (3) Is your Vivax town read founded purely on that you expect him to be disruptive; but he isnt? Hence, are you applying Vivax specific heuristics - is this the case? Are you familiar enough with Vivax to even consider having specific heuristics? Yes. I've played with Vivax in British Empire Mini Mafia II in which he was abrasive and in your face all the time. I've played with him in Fruity as well in which he was the same way. This is something I'm sure he's done in scum games as well, and the fact that he's refraining from it leads me to believe he's town. I don't think he would change his gameplay in this way if he weren't.His meta has changed in a way that feels more townie than scummy to me. (4) Blanket question. 5 scum. At least one typically will have an active-ish presence. With the current game situation: Where do you prefer to look for first scum lynch. The 3-4 typical lurkers/blenders? Or the 1-2 actives trying to get influence? I'm looking to kill the person whom I'm most certain of is scum, which is Shevlocke. Whoever is my strongest scumread is the person I'm looking to lynch. A scumteam is made up of the people that happen to be in it. Some teams don't have leaders. If it's RNGed (I don't know if Bloody RNGs his setups or not) then it could be anything from 5 lurkers to 5 town leaders. I'd rather not think about this setup wise, but look at who's acting the scummiest. That's Shevlocke for reasons I've mentioned before. (5) Can you please reconfirm who your #1 scumspect is. You have identified several as scummy; but it isnt clear, who you would bank on. Shevlocke is the person I want lynched this day. I believe I've made that clear. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:13 Caller wrote: oh artanis is here. very well claim in the next 30 minutes. or else. Threats aren't going to make me do something I consider anti town, even if it makes other people do something anti town. That's just retarded. I've already said why not. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:16 Caller wrote: artanis how is it "anti-town" you're going to die right now. and i'm not even voting for you. you might as well claim. we'll find your role on role-reveal anyways. I already told you how it's anti town and I don't think I'm going to get lynched today because there are still townies that are willing to read my posts and actually consider that I might be, you know, town. | ||
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Also if Caller goes wild wild west on me please lynch him after I flip. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:28 Caller wrote: you think i'm scared of a lynch? lol i'd get a move on if i were you though. Please claim. No, I'm just ensuring it's a one for one trade because only scum would be retarded enough to go through with a shot. | ||
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On April 08 2013 23:41 Caller wrote: artanis i REALLY dont care if i die if i kill you. At. All. so you better claim, because your reasoning earlier didn't actually address the claim issue. If you don't care about killing a townie then dying, presuming you're a townie yourself, then you really need to go back to the drawing board what the goal of mafia games are. | ||
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If Caller is lying, he's managed to derail the thread talking about things that don't matter for shit and won't give us any reads whereas there was a constructive town atmosphere before then. I see no reason why a town player would do so but plenty of reason for scum to do so. Thus, we lynch Caller today. | ||
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On April 09 2013 00:02 Vivax wrote: Artanis let's talk reads, why should we be lynching Shelvocke over Sno_man? Sn0_Man is afk. Shelvocke is part afk part horrendous filter. I'd rather go for the second. On April 09 2013 00:04 austinmcc wrote: Or he's an extractor and is forcing you to claim, and thinks that you are scum and will have picked a role that makes you almost certainly scum. In which case you'll see it in the thread in the near future. I doubt it, though, as he said I was dead. I expect he'd have used a different way to formulate if this was his role. Or he's lying and NOT derailing the thread. Caller's made a number of posts that show his mindset this game, he's specifically stated that everything is a trap, and he might be trying to force a claim out of you just because, and then see whether or not he believes it. But he IS derailing the thread, look at what's happened. He continues to antagonize the same tired refrain with each post after I've long indicated I have no intention of roleclaiming. Until something HAPPENS, Caller's posts shouldn't be derailing the thread. If anything comes of it, then we've got something to discuss re: whatever Caller's been doing. Until then, people shouldn't be so concerned with what he might or might not be doing. Either he does something or he doesn't, and we look at what happens then. Caller's actions strike me as very anti-town, more so than any other player in the game, thus I would like to see him lynched. I'd still be interested in seeing Shevlocke and VE lynched. On April 09 2013 00:07 Restraining Order wrote: Why, exactly? Let's say he's showtime and you flip green, okay. Why would caller kill you, apparantly an easy mislynch anyways, with a one-shot instantlynch that's invaluable in LYLO, and on top of that, anonymous. And claim it in the process. How is this more likely to be scum motivated? I don't see it. COULD it be? Yeah I guess, but I'm not feeling it. I'll refer to yamato's kurumi shot in personality. Basically the same situation. Because he can likely get away with it given the sentiment against me. Yes, it'd be invaluable at LYLO, but caller hasn't exactly been playing a game that'll get him a lot of town cred. Saving it until LYLO is a bigger gamble than this might be. Still, good reasoning and it's got me second guessing myself and wondering if I'm not falling into OMGUS. Fuck it, I'm going to catch up on Game of Thrones and Vikings, have dinner and see if I'm still alive after that. | ||
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Be warned. | ||
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Then afked some more. | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On April 19 2013 00:47 Caller wrote: im sorry i cant hear you over the sound of you being mad I think your inability to hear me has more to do with the fact that you're dead | ||
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