On April 09 2013 06:30 Restraining Order wrote:Actually Vivax is 100% scum. Through and through.
Vigis, shoot the guy. If not, we lynch the guy tomorrow. I will not accept anything short of his cold, dead body.So, in summary BOTH flipped mafia implicate him heavily. For Artanis it's on either side, for VE obviously not really since VE didn't actually post.
Summaries of both below, first comes Vivax' part, then the confirmed mafia's side.
VE:On April 07 2013 06:58 Vivax wrote:
Took a look at VE's filter cause he seems to be under suspicion. Liked his case, sheeping it.
##Vote: Restraining Order
On April 07 2013 07:08 Vivax wrote:On April 07 2013 07:03 Shelvocke wrote:
What about the case on Restraining Order did you like?
A lot.
I would say it contains irrefutable evidence of someone not believing what he claims to be thinking is best to believe.
On April 07 2013 07:16 Vivax wrote:
Shelvocke what do you dislike about VE's case? Can you tell me your draft pick?
On April 07 2013 08:05 Vivax wrote:
Palmar mind giving out your numbers and commenting on VE's case?
VE's case is apparantly good, huh. I never knew.
On April 07 2013 07:58 Vivax wrote:I'll read through a few filters and write down some thoughts on the go. Mistakes aren't unlikely in the process and not intended.
[1]1. Shelvocke just asked me about VE's case. That means he's well aware of it. Nonetheless he didn't comment on it despite it containing some very strong points in my opinion.
[2] I would expect someone to put his scumread's case under more scrutiny and ask him out about it, not sidebump at people agreeing with it.
Ninjad, so:
On April 07 2013 07:42 Shelvocke wrote:On April 07 2013 07:16 Vivax wrote:
Shelvocke what do you dislike about VE's case? Can you tell me your draft pick?
A lot of the points that he came up with, especially the "lol list scum" and the part about explaining why denying isn't a good strategy have nothing to do with Order's alignment and it appears as if he threw them in solely to inflate his post and make it look as if he is doing something.
The point about the denying thing was good. It showed that RO was arguing for a town NOT arguing about how to design role picks, which is not only bad in itself, but is also a way to discourage discussion. As for the lolist, yeah, that maybe wasn't a strong point but I can see VE throwing that in while digging through the filter.
[3]The point about RO apparently mixing scumreads with his 4/5 townreads still applies and has not been addressed by you.
[1]: "I'll make mistakes, but that's totally not scummy because I warned you! And if my opinions turn out to be bullshit, well it wasn't intentional, okay!?!?" This is just scummy and not part of the association, but I cba to repeat this later.
[2]: "I am suspicious of you for not commenting on VE's case" But that's not all he says with it, he AGAIN underlines how great and grand VE's case is.
[3]: So the case was awesome and everything, but points that are clearly just strewn in to inflate its size are merely "not strong". No need for concern guys. That's totally not something that should give a townie a pause while reading it, it's merely "not strong". And we of course can all understand the motivation for putting it in there, right?? Right??
On April 07 2013 08:49 Vivax wrote:
RO's whole defense against VE's case was "lol", and Palmar still didn't explain what makes VE scum aside from activity (and I would like to see how he defines that one).
First part we've heard already I think. Second part is a blatant defense of VE. Quelle surprise.
Then, for a long time, he simply ignores VE.
Once it becomes clear that VE is a very real lynch target and he can do nothing to stop it, time for a tactics switch:
Let's soft-push without commiting to it!
On April 08 2013 23:11 Vivax wrote:
I'm also considering VE for lynch currently, I didn't see anything of what he promised so far, and his pushes are less than half-assed.
On April 09 2013 00:05 Vivax wrote:On April 09 2013 00:02 Mocsta wrote:On April 08 2013 23:58 Ghor wrote:On April 08 2013 23:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 08 2013 23:49 Mocsta wrote:
Rayn
i saw your vote for VE.
Lay it out for me hunny
I forgot to vote him earlier in the actual voting thread. I think he is really unproductive and before the game started (during picking/drafing phase) he had really bad ideas that couldn't work. He's not doing anything and with the NRA thing on the table it makes him even more scummy because i know at least i am not the NRA guy.
I don't want to lynch Artanis, i don't think he is scummy. He didn't push his idea to the fullest but noone who were giving out ideas didn't do it. It was really obvious no idea was going to work because ~3/4 of the players straight out refused to contribute anything on the ideas.
Giving out your opinion on Artanis after Caller seemingly shot him is pretty useless, and scummy. Will you lynch Caller if Artanis flips green or not?That's what matters.
Nope
VE lynched today.. hes basically unkillable day or night (if NRA.. which as SnB pointed out seems likely based on his playstyle of trying to draw that attention)
That is too speculative at this stage. Use orthodox arguments please. We don't know if he has NRA, we don't know if geript's claim is true, we don't know why he doesn't post much (he's not posting much either in a parallel game).
I don't like how VE is playing but he's not the first guy I'd lynch today I think. RO, Sinani and Sno are my favourite targets.
He might not be the role he is, don't believe true things too easily!
I want to call him scummy so I look like I call him out, but obviously I'd rather lynch townies and have no intention of lynching VE! (yes, this translates to me giving both sinani and sno townreads, deal with it)
On VE's side there's not much, but there's something! Almost a miracle with that little activity....
On April 08 2013 01:29 VisceraEyes wrote:In what way is this post
On April 07 2013 23:35 Vivax wrote:
Anyone else finding S & B scummy?
any different from this post?
On April 07 2013 10:06 deconduo wrote:
Yeah, after reading his filter again
## Vote strongandbig
You accuse Vivax of trying to "bandwagon" SnB but you yourself opened your "content" by similarly voting SnB with no reasoning. You accuse Vivax of not reading the thread, but somehow you missed the fact that gonzaw was scheduled for an earth-shattering scum-destroying case at the end of his countdown?
Palmar I'm quite interested in why you think decon is town. That feels kinda like fucking bullshit from you.
##Unvote
##Vote deconduo Also known as:
Where VE pushes a guy that's suspicious of Vivax.Coincidence? I think not.
Apart from this, VE never mentions Vivax.
Artanis:On April 07 2013 21:54 Vivax wrote:
Artanis still think geript is scum?
Comments on VE and his RO case?
Easy as shit to do interaction, asking basically for a "yes" and a +1.
On April 08 2013 05:13 Vivax wrote:Gonzaw, took a look through Artanis filter and his defense to your case, but I don't see stuff striking me as scummy. I thought he was scum in British for his defensive play, and the smaller posts can be explained through the lower motivation in a big game like he explained.
[1]You also mention a thing in your case where Artanis called out geript for giving out a controversial opinion to geript:
I just can't believe Artanis is serious with that accusation. It seems he saw something random from geript and decided to use it against him without even thinking about it, it's the only explanation I can find.
You don't believe he is serious with it, but it does indeed look...controversial from geript to have written that thing. I don't think you can hold that against Artanis for example outside of your belief that he wasn't serious with it.
[2]Or calling his aggressive behaviour fake. I don't see why you arbitrarily call it either aggressive or fake.
[3]I don't know if there's just a lot of confirmation bias in that case, gonzaw, but it didn't convince me, tbh it looks like you added too many extras to it :o[
[4] [1]: "oh yes I totally looked at Artanis and I'm scumhunting and contributing, believe me. But I think a scum is town because [vague annotations about meta], thanks!" Further problems with this: He notes how he misread him in British as a reason for him to be wary of calling him scum. This is complete BS. Vivax has read me 100% wrong in EVERY game we have played together, apart from maybe LX if you want to nitpick, but ofc we were both scum there. DOES THAT MOTIVATE HIM TO REASSESS HIS READ ON ME IN ANY WAY? HELL NO. This is a textbook example of preferrential treatment. And of course, to top it off, he 'believes' Artanis' stupid excuse for not being active in an instant.
[2]: Highlighting the relevant part again: "I don't think you can hold that against Artanis". Of course not. Who would hold anything against Artanis?!?
[3]: "His agressive behavior isn't fake at all! Actually it's not even agressive at all! Actually it's not even behavior! Actually I'm not even town!"
Eh. You get the gist.
[4]: Case on artanis is, obviously, not convincing. Confirmation bias and such. Sure beans.
On April 08 2013 07:41 Vivax wrote:On April 08 2013 07:37 gonzaw wrote:
Question: How do you guys feel about both Shevlocke and Artanis being scum? Do you think this is possible (even considering Artanis' vote of Shevy up there)? If so, what do you think the correct course of action would be today?
Also, Sharrant get your ass in here, take your vote off Keirathi and do something.
Yamato, tell us why you parked your vote on Palmar and did shit all D1. Yes, I know you are "suspicious" of Palmar from that case you wrote, but you've ignored everything about Artanis, Shevlocke, and everything else. This is not helpful and is NOT how you played in early draft phase. Step up
I advise those that have votes on "irrelevant" people with just 1-2 votes take a step back, analyze them and Artanis/Shevlocke/etc again, and then tell us if you will keep parking your vote on that irrelevant guy, try to actually convince us to lynch him, or take a stance on Arty/Shevvy and put your vote on an actual lynch.
RO, do you still think S&B is scum? You parked your vote on him and I don't remember you commenting on him at all afterwards. You haven't commented on Artanis either.
Like half the game is just apathetic towards everything. I wish I could just shoot you :/Artanis is not the type who should be shot cause he does give a fuck about his image (as opposed to RO, for example). Go for trolls and lurky stuff.
Sno_Man, RO, Sinani, Caller. Not sure about BM but at least activity doesn't seem to be much of a concern lol. Not gonna cry over those if you shoot them.
"Artanis shouldn't be shot. Don't shoot scum. I'd prefer if you shoot trolls and lurkers instead."
Of course he wouldn't shed tears for dead townies. scumslip scumslip ololololololol (writing so much makes me bored, sorry about that)
On April 08 2013 23:04 Vivax wrote:Did you guys even read which targets gonzaw considered for the shot? It wasn't Artanis, those were Shelvocke and Sno_Man.
RO either doesn't read or uses a WIFOM argument on a wrong base without considering all other options.
This is how gonzaw wanted to use his role initially:
I still don't get what makes Shevlocke scummier than Artanis.....like..did I miss a scumslip or something >_>
I mean, I get how someone can think of him as scum.....but I'm missing how Artanis looks better than him, and I'm missing that "he's definitely scum" way I feel about scum :/
I will say that the more Shevlocke fails to appear and contribute, the more I feel like I could shoot him as well.
I'm torn between sno and shevlocke (although Shevlocke is more of a "yeah he could be scum, but I'm not sure if he should be a lynch (because of stuff explained before); maybe straight up killing him outside of lynch would be better"), leaning on sno.
So if you gotta ride the WIFOM-train, putting it all onto Artanis is scummy as shit. See RO for details.
I want to lynch into RO, Sno, maybe Shelvocke, but need to get to a conclusion first, I found him kinda scummy earlier on. Sinani also looks bad. This is a big game, scum can hide, everyone having their eyes on the most active dudes should think twice about lynching them.
Wifom argument that the gonzaw shot doesn't implicate Artanis at all. You know who said the same thing? Oh yes, Artanis! Hmmm.
Going after Artanis is also scummy as shit, apparantly.
We've seen the rest a hundred times already by now, only now Shelvocke is included. Who Artanis is currently pushing. Who is clearly getting prepared for a full scum-team push on him here. Just FYI.
On April 08 2013 23:36 Vivax wrote:
If Caller shoots Artanis I'm not opting for anything but his lynch until he's dead.
Watch out Caller, you gonna get nightkilled.
There are some more threats to Caller about him killing Artanis, but I'm getting lazy.
Artanis' side of things:
On April 04 2013 23:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
If we're going to policy lynch I'd rather lynch Vivax.
Looks entirely unremarkable. It is. It's also never seriously considered or followed up on.
On April 06 2013 08:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 06 2013 08:27 Mocsta wrote:On April 06 2013 08:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 06 2013 08:16 Mocsta wrote:On April 06 2013 08:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Mocsta, it's not an association read. That just adds to the case. The post that really set me off was the one where he called you town but not really but town five times in two sentences.
Its association because there is no flip.
The association was, if Geript is scum; it goes someways towards implicating Keirathi as associated scum (you know, the stuff that was taken precedence over the past 2/3 pages, originated by Caller)
But I'm not using it as an association case at all, my main crux of the case was the post I mentioned which has no bearing on Keirathi or Caller or any of that. Look at that post alone and tell me if you see any town motivation in making it.
Geript is a difficult player to work with.
+ Show Spoiler [Geript fallacies] +His second game on this forum (Mafia LX).. lets just say.. post-game, people decided he needs to be wrapped in cotton-wool.
Geript is not stupid; is aware of this perception; and realises to play it to his strengths.
Geript also has more balls than ppl give him credit for.
The other hard part is: his play is still developing.
He just played scum; so has more insight in how to blend in as scum; and also what he values are being a good townie.
I just wanted to point out here some context for a publicly considered "fragile" player - a reputation I dont think he deserves.
I think there is merit in what you have pointed out, and am paying close attention to his responses.
I also find it curious that when defending Rayn, he likes to point out validity in VE strategy as a basis. Soon he proceeds to call out VE for "working behind the scenes", and then later calls him out again for not scum hunting.
P.S. its sat morning for me, so I will be back in 10-12hrs.
So he's playing to his strengths by saying things that have no town motivation? Please explain to me how that works. Are you saying that like Vivax he rolls scum in 100% of his games regardless of his role PM? If he's so aware of his perception, why does his posting history look so awful?
You've basically said in this post that he's better than people give him credit for, yet his post history reeks of scum. If he's good as you say he is then this should ring even more alarm bells. The point regarding VE you make only compounds that, so that makes me wonder. Why so noncommittal?
This doesn't actually say anything of value either.
Let's go full confirmation bias and say "Are you saying that like Vivax he rolls scum in 100% of his games regardless of his role PM" is an excuse to excuse Vivax' scummy behavior because he apparantly always does that.
Then his read/list post states:
On April 08 2013 06:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Vivax
Vivax is Vivax. In all previous games I've played with him he's rolled scum, but sometimes the host accidentally flipped him green. This game I feel like he's playing better than any game he's had before. There's still Vivax moments of trying to be right where everyone else is wrong, but he's being cooperative. I see no reason why he wouldn't stick to his unreadable meta if he rolled scum. Town.
Oh a townread. Because Vivax is supposedly not playing to either meta, and is apparantly 'cooperative'.
What he forgets though, and continues to forget, is Vivax' scum play in LVIII. Which showed a marked absence of the raving moronic town Vivax we all rightfully hate. Guess what? This town Vivax is also not present in this game. But that little piece of meta will go ignored. Better not bring it up, and hope nobody else does.
*insert 2 one-liners repeating his above read I cba to quote*
On April 08 2013 21:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Also I looked up Vivax' meta, Oats. I don't think he's scum. His OMGUS on you and the fact that he didn't put any pressure on anyone in the early game other than that rubs me the wrong way, but he's been picking it up since then and showing the stream of consciousness that I'm used to seeing from a town Vivax. In his LX scum game he had a lot of small posts with no real meaning and large posts whenever he thought it was time to make it look like he was contributing. His posting style in this game is very different from that.
LX as the sole hallmark for Vivax' scumplay.
Aren't we forgetting a game?
Luckily, dandy dan is here for you.
On April 08 2013 22:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 08 2013 21:56 Restraining Order wrote:On April 08 2013 21:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I still want to lynch Artanis, more than ever. Fuck the stupid wifom defenses some of you guys come up with.
Solid case bro. Tell me, if you were in a scumteam would you need more than the reasons I underlined to shoot someone? Really?
It's not about NEEDING more. But if there ARE more, a mafiateam would gladly take it. In the end, this is a horrible point.
I understand why you want to argue it, since it goes against you strongly, but that doesn't make it a good one by any stretch. Au contraire.
No, that's dumb because if scum will shoot him 100% of the time for the reasons I stated then any potential extra reasons are completely moot.
On April 08 2013 21:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Also I looked up Vivax' meta, Oats. I don't think he's scum. His OMGUS on you and the fact that he didn't put any pressure on anyone in the early game other than that rubs me the wrong way, but he's been picking it up since then and showing the stream of consciousness that I'm used to seeing from a town Vivax. In his LX scum game he had a lot of small posts with no real meaning and large posts whenever he thought it was time to make it look like he was contributing. His posting style in this game is very different from that.
Did you read LVIII?
Let's talk about who you want to lynch instead of yourself.
You only defending yourself, it's getting boring.
Why are you not pushing Shelvocke hardcore yet?
I read LX and British Empire II.
So, when I'm obviously implying that he has played like he does this game exactly once before, and it was a scumgame, it would not do to check it and take a stance on that. Of course not.
So yeah Vivax is like, maaaaafia and shit. 
EPT
