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Countdown: 7
No one comments on it because it's bad VE, and you put too much weight on it and nothing else.
On April 06 2013 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote:VisceraEyes Pre-Dawn Lynch Preference of WrathRestrainingOrder - RestrainingOrder first popped onto my radar in my first readthrough before commenting on Yamato's idea. This post. Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:58 Restraining Order wrote:
The thing is denying mafia roles doesn't work too well anyways, and on top of that, if you try to coordinate it, it works even less.
The rolecop-rolevig combo alone has 2-3 possibilities on either end of the deal. (rolecop, capitalist, extractor & assassin, rolevig)
Sure, you might be a hero and get exactly the one they try to pick, but it's a crapshoot, and mafia inherently has the pickorder advantage due to possible coordination.
Rather, think about it like this: certain roles are not desireable for mafia to pick. Those roles, you don't pick early in the draft order. This includes all investigative roles (apart from rolecop), dreamflower, things like that. Not picking those in, say, the upper half, will mean more roles for town overall.
But having VTs is also very informative, so you really don't need to mind either way. Ultimately the logic behind this post is fairly sound. But upon further inspection, you'll find that all it really does is say "planning for the pick phase is futile, and doesn't matter". Why not just say that? Why go to the extra effort of explaining it in the throes of a huge planning session when it's clear it's just going to get ignored by people who are expending effort planning? It's a throw-away post that affects nothing and accomplishes nothing.
This is irrelevant for his alignment
He proceeds to have a rather meaningless back and forth with rayn, which ultimately ends up with rayn having a scumread on him. Most of it is "You said" "No I didn't". But what I found interesting during this exchange was this post. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:37 Restraining Order wrote:On April 05 2013 03:33 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 05 2013 03:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Restraining Order wrote:
Ok, you can keep townhunting them townreads if you want, I sent in my numbers already. They shouldn't be too obtrusive to whatever nonsense you'll come up with, so it's okay. This is like a scumclaim. elaborate why not wanting to discuss your plan is scummy please. You must have forgotten, but you also think I'm mafia. What is the town motivation for posting this? Like, assuming RO is town and he doesn't know what Oats' alignment is, what is the point of prodding Oats when he's soft-defending him like that? As scum it could serve to cast doubt on Oats if Oats is town, but what does it do if RO is town? I can't think of anything, and I found this post suspicious as hell as a result.
If you can't figure out the town motivation for saying that, you are scum or bad VE.
It's obvious what the town motivation for saying that is, and it's baffling how you both can't see it and use it to justify someone being scum.
Hint: If RO is town, then he's seeing someone that accused him of being scum defending him. This would be contradictory and thus he'd try to get some answers out of Oats. Can't get any easier than this
Hint: It doesn't make Oats scum either, since you can always think someone is scum yet think other people are attacking him for the wrong reasons
Hint: It doesn't make RO scum for not "heavily pushing" it either, because of the previously mentioned reason (it doesn't make Oats insta-scum)
The thing about RO "wanting" to kill people he previously said would basically be town because of drafting picks is valid; but it's enough to pressure him not enough to make a "case" (specially considering your previous 2 "bad" points).
Ultimately, the ONLY thing you can say against RO is that he wants to kill some people he previously said are likely town. It wouldn't be that bad if you kept pushing it (using RO's consequent reactions and responses as well) and didn't masquerade it with previously bad points.
You are free to keep pushing RO, but right now you made a single case-post and did nothing else basically regarding RO, not even commenting on his responses, which in my mind weren't even that "good", which I would think would make you...you know.....pressure him some more, considering it's the crux of your argument against him.
Speaking of which, yes, RO's comment on doing a 180 on those people and subsequent reaction is weirdly funny (by that I mean his reaction to VE's case and his seemingly "fuck you all" attitude when pressured about that previous point, along the fact he didn't really justify his change of heart before making it, but rather after he was called out, and had little evidence to show he actually did have that change of heart before and was genuine).
I'm interested in what he's going to do this day.
I'm also interested in what rayn thinks of this whole RO issue. He hasn't really commented on the VE vs RO issue at all, even when VE does point out a valid point against RO, considering rayn was tunneling the hell out of RO earlier.
rayn has turned kind of trollish and useless after the draft phase ended and that's bothering the hell out of me trying to get a read off him :/
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Countdown: 6
Oats, can you tell me where your position against Vivax is? I don't really want to wade through 7 pages of your filter to see them.
Or make a condensed post with your thoughts about him and justifying your vote, etc.
Vivax is being uncharacteristically "sane" and "not totally disruptive".
It's off-putting considering my experience with his town play.
He posts "normal" stuff, normal enough for both scum and town to post it. That in itself is null, considering the draft phase, and thus would need more info on this D1 phase.
But again, it's "weird" considering what (in my mind) uncharacteristic of his his play i (those "normal" posts of his follow that as well)
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Countdown: 5
sinani, what do you think of the Rayn-RO-VE issues?
What about other people that have been called out, like geript, Artanis, or Vivax for instance?
I hope you take this game seriously as well
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Countdown: 4
At worst, 9 people choosing the same number indicates the exact same thing: There's been some planning about picking those numbers. This would mean that just like PYP: Insane, scum decided to have 2-3 people choose the same number (for instance)
The chances of 9 townies choosing 8 as first number is very very low I'd say. Although not all 5 scum would do so (maybe just 2-3) so there's some info if we flip 1-2 scum in said group.
On April 05 2013 17:59 Palmar wrote:
ok I have a plan.
details tomorrow.
On April 07 2013 06:24 Palmar wrote:
##Vote VisceraEyes
I'm waiting palmar...
Is your plan ninja-voting VE and disappearing?
I thought you said the plan was going to be hilarious....there's nothing hilarious about that
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Countdown: 3
Snoman, I couldn't care less about you claiming your role right now. You've done 0 productive things ever since the game started, and you keep not doing them now.
Of course you'll take a great role as both scum or town, and I'd take a bet that even if you are town scum won't shoot you soon or may even steal your role and keep you alive (or you may claim something similar later).
Comment on cases, choose which one you agree with/disagree with, post scumreads.
It would be a pity if someone were to day vig you right now and you flip town, so get to it (no this is not me claiming day vig)
Vivax, VE's case is bad except that "RO mixed scumreads with town reads" bit. Read my previous posts for a more thorough explanation.
If you want to accuse RO, sheeping VE's case is the worst way to do it. Come up with stuff of your own that's actually incriminating if you still think he's scum.
Also stop with the draft number shit. It's already apparent who took what or in what range their numbers are. You can even check it with that "lolList" from VE's case.
Also Palmar seems like scum Palmar. If you act this unhelpful (like that other game of yours) just so scum don't kill you at night, I'd advice you that townies (or even scum) day-viggin you on D1 is also possible, if not more probable.
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Countdown: 2
Damn, game is getting boring now, nobody doing shit other than flinging shit onto VE/RO and mass voting them.
I don't endorse a VE nor RO lynch right now (might change later in the day), but neither VE nor RO are making it easy.
Several people that were active, or tried to be active in draft phase are surprisingly gone and that worries me as well.
This weekend is the only free time I'll have until next weekend guys (and I'll probably be dead by then), so try to take advantage of it! :D
On April 07 2013 08:33 Palmar wrote:
Where does the notion that I ever act unhelpful because I'm afraid of dying come from? If I'm not doing stuff it's because I don't want to be doing stuff for one reason or another. Stop saying stupid shit.
That's what every "vet" uses as an excuse. I understand you sometimes giving 0 shits about games when you are town, but you don't give them as scum either, so......
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Countdown: 1
Okay, a couple of things:
1) Some of you have "voted" apparently but haven't posted in the voting thread (here) Don't be lazy guys
2) In my next post I'll post my main scumread, make a case against him, etc. Hopefully it can get something more out of you guys (in terms of content), as well as hopefully netting us one scum
3) Wow, BM is putting quite a lot of effort it seems, at least much more than what I remember (specially in contrast with other games of his, like LIII). That's pleasantly surprising 
4) Although kind Ignore this post since it's just filler to ramp up the number of my posts >_>
Your trully,
gonzaw the One
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Countdown: ZERO
Initiate 3K Protocol ...
Target: Artanis[Xp]
Profile: MAFIA
Objective: LYNCH
(Filter for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766&user=19729 )
1) Introduction:
Ah yes. I've been keeping an eye out on Artanis for a while. I've noticed him when I made this post.
What I had noticed, was how Artanis tried to be part of discussions.
Here's the thing. Players like yamato, rayn, maybe Sharrant, etc, started discussing how to make draft picks.
Other players straight up didn't say much about it or said they didn't care much, like Keirathi (I believe), Meapak, etc.
The "active" ones that were discussing things though, did so in a productive manner.
They proposed plans, they discussed them, they argued with each other about their benefits and criticisms of others. They posted thoughts on other people's plans and thoughts.
Most importantly though: They tried to put effort in their posts, while still trying to be productive.
Artanis certainly did seem to put effort, but didn't seem to try and be productive
So let's start this kay?
2) "Hiding in plain sight" via setup discussion:
One of the reasons I had an early town read on Meapak....was just how he took the words out of my mouth regarding Artanis.
First, here are some posts for reference (you can always just check his filter, 1st page):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#191
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#195
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=10#196
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766¤tpage=13#256
Here's the thing. These posts just scream "I'm trying to contribute with setup talk!" to me.
For instance, take yamato's filter as comparison. See how he approaches the discussion about role picking.
Now check how Artanis approaches said discussion.
Artanis seems to be putting up an appearance. He seems to be posting just for the sake of discussing setup stuff.
He posts just to be active, or so it seems.
He even tries to come up with a "plan" of his own, with the RNG stuff! Scum love to do this as well.
I'll go back and mention something I've posted before:
On April 05 2013 03:05 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:54 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 05 2013 02:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 02:47 Caller wrote:On April 05 2013 02:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 02:43 Vivax wrote:
It's ok caller, just means you will be the last one along with the designated elected townie mofo you'll contest. Hurt yourself bro.
I'll take a look at your options there. Seems like you like to pick the most active ones, but need to check if they're actually proposing malicious ideas. Disagreed on some stuff with sharrant, for example. It's like he wanted to leave "dangerous" roles open for scum. It doesn't matter if they proposed good or bad ideas. Mafia is probably not going to push any ideas at all (because they all have a backdoor - because there are so many roles). Everyone pushing ideas regardless if they are good/bad are probably town at this point, especially the guys who are pushing ultimately bad ideas. :D au contraire mafia will push any ideas even if they are "good" because their picking strategy never reflects what town is thinking and if they have a "good plan" they become more "townlike." or they participate. either way it looks good on them. As i said the guys top in drafting order are gonna fall fast, thay have the "best" roles after all (or at least likely). If you were mafia why would you push an idea that's good for town? Doesn't it hurt your team? If you were mafia why would you push an idea that's bad for town? Doesn't it draw suspicion to you? You cant push a bad strategy in PYP, you just cant. It gets shut down immediately. Its better for them to let town do what they do and maybe slightly alter the 'plan' to benefit scum more. So therefore your town 'criteria' is absolute bullshit The criteria may be "bullshit"....to an extent. It's "obvious" that in many games the people being the most active are more likely to be town. In this game, yamato, rayn, Sharrant, and to an extent Moctsa/geript have been the most active in going with discussion. Yes, it's possible one (or more) of them are scum, just have some big balls and decided to start the game guns-blazing going for town cred and trying to be an influence. The thing is that other than maybe yamato/Mocsta I don't see them doing that as scum (as opposed if they were wbg or something like that), plus their interactions with them seem legit in the sense that they are genuinely discussing stuff to be productive (which is likelier to come from townies than scum). For instance, take a look at all others that "chimed in" with "pro-town plans" and stuff.....yet made absolutely no impact at all in the game It's possible you'll find your first scums in there (if not on the inactive/"bored" players as well).
When I was talking about those "possible first scums", I was talking about Artanis primarily.
This is a fact: Artanis chimed in with the setup discussion, and even proposed a "pro-town plan", yet he had absolutely no impact in the game at all. He was just a passenger in the thread discussion about plans, coincidentally something scum love to do.
Compare that to other player's, like yamato, Mocsta, rayn, or geript, who cared about the discussion and the outcome from it. You can't say the same thing with Artanis
There are some people that acted similarly regarding plans, but not to the extent Artanis did IMO, and even some of those have other qualities about their play that make you have a completely different read on them (austin, Keirathi and maybe even RO spring to mind)
3) Unnecessary complaints that happen out of place:
On April 04 2013 22:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Holy shit thread moving fast.Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:49 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
That's true rayn, the plan does rely on the players that step up to be town. However it isn't a downside because the alternative is using no plan in which case scum can pick good roles anyway. Using this plan doesn't mean that the players that follow the RNG idea are instantly labeled town for the rest of the game. They'd still be under scrutiny. All it does is make it riskier for scum to pick one or two of the roles we consider the strongest for them. was in response to Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. I don't think that's a good idea either. Scum can easily pick good roles for them by "blocking" a good scum role and in LYLO just BAM - ggnore. Also if town blocks a role scum can leave them alive to be WIFOMed to death later.
On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:18 Caller wrote:On April 04 2013 23:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Is there an ingame reason for it? do i need a reason? i just wanna kill him. Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side.
On April 06 2013 00:23 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I really don't want to read through the mess from last night  I've skimmed through it and it was unappealing. It seems the first three people indicated they just want to pick what they want/what 'they think is best for town', which worries me. It means they'll have no accountability. Going down the list, Sinani's indicated the same so I think we can pretty much presume the roleblocking strategy is going to be hard to enforce, unless anyone thinks they can convince VE to pick one. Sinani's filter looked particularly horrible when I just checked it. Are you actually going to play the game or are you content with trolling it?
On April 05 2013 08:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Just caught up with the thread and it's filled with, well, filler. Can't say I've grown much wiser alignment wise other than Oats giving me town vibes simply for all the prodding in everything. With all these plans of picking or not picking it seems people have forgotten about the RNG option for picking which I still believe is the strongest as it puts scum at a big risk of becoming VT if they go for the strong roles whilst still allowing said town players to potentially pick a strong blue role. It covers both flanks.
Here I find an unnecessary complaint about the thread.
Unnecessary in the sense that he seems to mention just to mention it. It serves little purpose other than complaint.
They seem out of place and happen too often as well. This seems a little fake to me, because I don't think a townie would spend so much time to complain about it in so many different places.
Nobody else did, bar maybe Vivax at some points (but those didn't feel so out of place either, specially since at least Vivax expanded a little bit on why he was complaining).
He's just complaining, specially those last 2 posts, just for the sake of complaining, and most importantly, for the sake of appearing he's active and contributing something.
By doing stuff like this, he's hiding in plain sight.
That last post makes me a little suspicious about him. Why?
First he discredits what's going on in the thread by complaining about it being filler. Then he posts a wishy washy read on Oats. Then he posts some fluff about the draft plans, and even mentions his plan even more.
Just look at that, "...the RNG option,.. which I still believe is the strongest...." . Even when talking about the plans he has to mention how HIS plan is the best, he has to mention how much he contributed to the thread by posting a super-duper plan, right!!?
Those 2 last posts of his are total fluff, specially with some of his reads (on Oats, sinani and VE).
Those posts scream "I'm trying to cram as much stuff as possible that makes others think I'm contributing!".
He crams so much bullshit in so little space, yet he has no time to do anything else? He has little time to comment on other stuff, or interact with people, be part of discussions, etc.
I've found scum do this the most. They have a single post where they cram some shit into it trying to compass different topics, posting fluff and filler, then just let it be that. They don't expand on those points, don't interact with others, don't participate in discussions willingly and without pressure, etc.
With those last 2 posts Artanis does this, which I find suspicious.
4) The geript case:
At this time I think it was when I was telling myself "Okay, Artanis seems suspicious to me, but I'll wait before pressuring him and see what he does"...
...and that "case" is what he does indeed.
On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Hi Geript. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:
I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:
Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie.
Oh and I think you're pretty townie. Why on earth would a townie post this?
WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 14:00 geript wrote:
eh, I don't value investigation roles very highly. If people want to go for them, I'm not going to prevent it. I think that there are just better options available. As for protection roles, the only one I really like is jailkeeper. If you want to post a better list I would love to see it. As a matter of fact I think it would be good for other people to chime in on general draft strategy as it would give some of the slackers a better idea of what to go for. Investigation and protective roles are truly awful for town. Who'd want less KP at night in the game, right? Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:05 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 14:58 geript wrote:
Sorry missed that question. The more I play the less full 180's seems like 'sure thing scum tells' to me; as a matter of fact, IIRC 90% of the 180's in the last game were done by town. I'd say it's suspicious and worth looking into him more, but there was a quote from the VE/BH mason log that it reminds me of it boiled down to something like "I don't want to push Geript into a corner because the more we do that the likelier he is to look like scum and prevent us from being able to avoid a mislynch. Instead I'd rather try and interact with him on his scumreads etc." I think VE's strategy is a very good one. I think it's suspicious but not to the point that it's a full scum tell for me. I'd much rather try and interact with him in a way to not lose him in case he is town. Fair points that are applicable to anyone. Look, though my emphasis is on Rayn, I am not tunneled on him. If he proves his innocence, I will move on. But having reviewed my interactions with him, I am struggling to see how he can even be a remote town read. (From my POV) At best he is null. ==== As an aside, I think holding off lynching candidates in the top 5 draft is terrible: just because there is a risk of lynching a townie that held an awesome role. If someone be scummy, you lynch them. Full Stop. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:09 geript wrote:
Thank you Moc, now I know that you are town. This post apparently makes Mocsta town. In what world can scum not make a post like this? What is it about this post that makes you read him as this apparent townMocsta? Also, as Mocsta already brought up Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:50 Mocsta wrote:On April 05 2013 15:46 geript wrote:
@VE Why are you so quiet? I'm not used to you being so behind the scenes instead of being spammy. I would like to get a read on you. I sincerely hope that isnt a scum slip. Because, I expect more from your scum play than a loose phrase like that. I think I know what you meant; but the implication is.. you are aware of what VE is doing currently; which is knowledge townies certainly do not possess.... On its own it's not lynchworthy, but with how poorly scumript has been playing so far I'd say this adds to the case. Vote scum. Vote Geript.
Firstly, I don't know if I am the only one, but when I was reading the thread I had the feeling geript was likely town, with the way he proposed his plan, the behaviour of his, etc (right now I can't really post many reasons because I had these feelings some days ago and haven't checked geript since, but these were indeed my feelings then).
Second, let's dwell into the case.
That first part is horrendous. Even worse than VE's "RO called Oats out therefore is scum!" part from his case.
So, let's see if I get this straight: geript has specific knowledge of Mocsta's town play he uses as a heuristic he knows himself and nobody else does. He mentions this to Mocsta so Mocsta knows he's watching him.
Then mocsta does this apparently, and geript tells him he "passed the test".
Basically, geript knows something Mocsta always does as town, and thus is waiting for him to do it this game, to get a better read on him.
Sounds pretty normal right? And at worst null, right?
Well apparently not to Artanis
I just can't believe Artanis is serious with that accusation. It seems he saw something random from geript and decided to use it against him without even thinking about it, it's the only explanation I can find.
His next part in the case is something irrelevant about some comment geript made about setup speculation (which is and should be null at worst)
And...that's it? That's his "case"?
Oh wait, he mentions that "geript thinks Mocsta is town" bit again, and even mentions the "scumslip" (which is obviously not a scumslip for anyone with 2 brain cells).
I did half-seriously ask him if he was joking...to see if it maybe was a "bait" case to get info on geript...
...but it wasn't, meaning Artanis seemingly believed his own case, and I can't believe a town Artanis would do so.
5) Aggressive "fake" behaviour:
After he posts his case, his "push" of geript seems too fake too me.
He seems aggressive out of nowhere for no reason
On April 06 2013 07:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Also, how about actually commenting on the case rather than waffling around it?
On April 06 2013 07:51 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
How is calling someone town then scum then town over nothing not scummy? How is him not inventing a reason at random from a null post to suddenly call mocsta town after doubting him not scummy? What are your categories for someone being scum exactly?
On April 06 2013 08:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Can you explain in which way your history is relevant to calling him leaning town but not really mocstatown yet leaning townie but not really but yeah kinda in thread?
On April 06 2013 08:32 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I'm gonna put in as much effort as you just did. Bill Murray is scum. Now can you comment on the Geript case or are you going to be useless?
On April 06 2013 08:35 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 08:27 Mocsta wrote:On April 06 2013 08:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 06 2013 08:16 Mocsta wrote:On April 06 2013 08:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Mocsta, it's not an association read. That just adds to the case. The post that really set me off was the one where he called you town but not really but town five times in two sentences. Its association because there is no flip. The association was, if Geript is scum; it goes someways towards implicating Keirathi as associated scum (you know, the stuff that was taken precedence over the past 2/3 pages, originated by Caller) But I'm not using it as an association case at all, my main crux of the case was the post I mentioned which has no bearing on Keirathi or Caller or any of that. Look at that post alone and tell me if you see any town motivation in making it. Geript is a difficult player to work with. + Show Spoiler [Geript fallacies] +His second game on this forum (Mafia LX).. lets just say.. post-game, people decided he needs to be wrapped in cotton-wool.
Geript is not stupid; is aware of this perception; and realises to play it to his strengths.
Geript also has more balls than ppl give him credit for.
The other hard part is: his play is still developing.
He just played scum; so has more insight in how to blend in as scum; and also what he values are being a good townie.
I just wanted to point out here some context for a publicly considered "fragile" player - a reputation I dont think he deserves. I think there is merit in what you have pointed out, and am paying close attention to his responses. I also find it curious that when defending Rayn, he likes to point out validity in VE strategy as a basis. Soon he proceeds to call out VE for "working behind the scenes", and then later calls him out again for not scum hunting.
P.S. its sat morning for me, so I will be back in 10-12hrs. So he's playing to his strengths by saying things that have no town motivation? Please explain to me how that works. Are you saying that like Vivax he rolls scum in 100% of his games regardless of his role PM? If he's so aware of his perception, why does his posting history look so awful? You've basically said in this post that he's better than people give him credit for, yet his post history reeks of scum. If he's good as you say he is then this should ring even more alarm bells. The point regarding VE you make only compounds that, so that makes me wonder. Why so noncommittal?
He's being needlessly aggressive in my mind.
The way he posts seems fake too me as well. He seems to antagonize everything, specially when he starts arguing with Mocsta
He doesn't show a mentality of "I want to figure out the alignment of this player", he shows an mentality of total confrontation and wanting to paint geript as scum no matter what
Mocsta keeps arguing with Artanis about stuff, yet Artanis can only think of how to make geript look as scum even more.
On April 06 2013 07:59 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 07:57 yamato77 wrote:
Geript is obviously not mafia if you've been reading the game at all. Why?
There's also this.
I share yamato's opinion here, and I think some others did as well
I'd say other townies did as well. Artanis didn't.....let's take a guess why shall we?
On April 06 2013 20:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:I still don't like your posts pre-VE case Geript, but your case on VE and the constructive way you replied to my post makes me willing to reconsider my read. I'm curious to read VE's reply to it. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 13:28 Mocsta wrote:@ArtanisXpI would like to continue discussion regarding your Geript case. Specifically, your qualms with Geripts wishy-washiness on whether I am town as follows: + Show Spoiler [Artanis on Geript] +On April 06 2013 07:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:
I'm not saying that you haven't done anything not town Mocsta-ish. There's just a very specific heuristic that town Mocsta seems to follow that you haven't hit on yet for me. I'm leaning town on you but until you get that one aspect I have a hard time putting you there fully.
As for your posting, I really like it. Translates to: =============================== On April 05 2013 13:05 geript wrote:Hi, I think you're being townie, but you're not being you-townie, yet I still think you're townie but I'm not sure if you're townie. Oh and I think you're pretty townie. =============================== Why on earth would a townie post this?
WHY?Mocsta wasn't even close to being in danger, and the town motivation for calling someone town, then suspicious, then town eludes me. What I find curious about the above, is when we start discussing Geript and you comment the below: + Show Spoiler [Artanis WishyWashy] +On April 06 2013 09:13 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I had you as weak town before our exchange, and the post you made questioned that read, so I questioned you. At first I thought it made you null again, but rereading it I realized that your wishy-washy post wouldn't make sense if Geript is scum, because he created an easy way for you to defend him which you denied. Since I believe Geript to be scum that makes you fairly town. On April 06 2013 09:16 Mocsta wrote:
Lol.. and if he is town.. what then? On April 06 2013 09:17 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Then you'd be null again. I find this interchange ironic, as you flip flop regarding my alignment much to the same manner Geript does. Let me guess, the heuristic doesnt apply to your play? No, I don't flip-flop on your alignment as all. I'm very specific in what my conclusion is and my thought process towards it is explained. I could've just posted that I thought you looked town now, and you'd ask me "why?" and then I'd say the same thing. I just saved us two posts of meaningless banter.
Show nested quote +Further, I shall ask the same question I asked Geript. On April 05 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote:
Im not sure why I need to know you have me as town though? Nor why everyone else needs to know?
Im asking because, Im still trying to figure out if that affects my perception of you. Because you asked me a very specific question, which was my reasoning why I was questioning you. I'm explaining my thought process so you can follow it.
He then backs off geript, but I think it's weak.
He spent so much time and effort discrediting and accusing geript, to then just brush off saying "I still don't like your posts pre-VE case Geript..." ?
That's not how he came out at all, he didn't "not like geript's posts", he apparently thought geript was obvious scum incarnate and went guns blazing against him.
That just doesn't feel right and seems like a half-assed way to back off geript
6) Other stuff:
Some other stuff that make me wary....is basically how everybody is ignoring him.
He is indeed flying under the radar, and was until Meapak called him out.
Yet even Meapak has "forgotten" about him now
Not only that, right now there are eight different players being voted, yet nobody votes Artanis, yet nobody even talks about him.
I'd think scum would love throwing some dirt on town Artanis now to create even more chaos and have even more "candidates" in the table to confuse town...yet they don't.
He's also AFK now for like 24 hours. I won't take that much into consideration since it must have been some IRL issue.
You may realize a similar method I did in my last game.
Last game (MTG Mini Mafia 2), I had a scum read on Aperture, but basically didn't mention him at all for a while and put him under 0 pressure for 24 or so hours (or more).
I saw that nobody mentioned him, nobody casted suspicion on him, and he kept flying under the radar not contributing and doing shit.
That instantly told me he was scum (if he was town he wouldn't do shit all when under no pressure, and if he did, scum would love to cast suspicion on him, which they didn't).
I tried doing something similar here.
That method worked out in the past (Aperture was scum)....I'll let you figure out the rest.
7) Conclusion:
Yep, Artanis is scum, and we lynch him today.
Out of all other candidates, the only one I could see getting behind is S&B perhaps.
Yet I want to see S&B post some reads before doing so. I agree with some stuff said against him though, but I think I need more info on him.
Just as I'd want to see RO/VE/etc post more, defend themselves, contribute more, etc to get a better read off them.
Same with Palmar I guess, but I doubt he'll be much help. We'll just have to see his subtle actions when he does show up every once and then.
At the very least, I think he should be a lynch candidate, so that he stops hiding, defends himself, others post thoughts about him, and we can move forward in this day.
Artanis[Xp], seems you should have gone with Artanis[Win 7] instead, because you seem more like Artanis[Vista] to me 
##Vote: Artanis
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I wouldn't mind killing Snoman either.
....I believe our vigs should take care of him though, it seems like a better idea (instead of wasting a lynch on him).
I've ground less fond of Caller the more time goes on, wouldn't mind some pressure on him, and see how his read on Keirathi (and reads in general) evolved.
ObviousOne has completely disappeared since I called him out I think. This guy can be scum as well.
sinani could be scum, but there are some stuff that give me a gut feeling he's playing like his "misslynch bait" town persona. Dunno, it's just some of the stuff he posts. Wouldn't mind him getting pressured though
S&B I want him to do something meaningful before concluding anything about him
VE and RO should try and do something as well. I don't like them for lynch, but I don't like their passiveness this cycle so far either.
That leaves everybody I'm "suspicious" of right now I believe (others are null or I need more info/interactions/etc to do something)
That still leaves Artanis as the best lynch. So come on people! Sheep me :D
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Oh yeah forgot about rayn...
....I'll see how that plays out.
I don't believe this "he didn't talk about planning even when he got top 5 in draft order!" thing has that much merit though...
...the "He tunneled RO out of nowhere", the "he was so calm and made sense and now is trolling and being completely useless for no reason", and the "he hasn't contributed much at all" reasons are much more valid IMO
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Seems everybody is ignoring me...
......don't
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On April 07 2013 16:04 Oatsmaster wrote:
Yeah Gonzaw.
I disagree that Artanis is scum.
Pure gut read so meh.
If you got the time, look at British 2.
Is he similar to there? Or different.
Why not Vivax?
Also Im up for a sn0man lynch for being UTTERLY USELESS.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400346&user=19729
lol Artanis is playing NOTHING LIKE his town play in British 2
Do you have anything specific about it that makes me wrong? It seems it only makes me more sure he's scum >_>
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So what "gut feeling" do you have that he's town?
Why is my case bad, why is Vivax more likely scum than Artanis?
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I encourage you guys to read Artanis' filter from British 2
See how "outgoing" he is there. See how he interacts with other people, pressures others, is not afraid to post
Now reread my case and check his filter this game. See the "fear" in his posts, for instance those 2 I mention where he's posting fluff and "cramming down too much bullshit".
They are 2 completely different playstyles.
Artanis was town in British 2
Therefore, Artanis is scum this time.
Meapak, why did you suddenly forget about Artanis, when he was actually getting more and more suspicious? I think you said something like "nobody except sinani resembles a decent lynch", so what about the guy you called out for "hiding in plain sight" before, who did nothing to convince you otherwise, is not a decent lynch?
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On April 07 2013 16:23 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 16:19 gonzaw wrote:
I encourage you guys to read Artanis' filter from British 2
See how "outgoing" he is there. See how he interacts with other people, pressures others, is not afraid to post
Now reread my case and check his filter this game. See the "fear" in his posts, for instance those 2 I mention where he's posting fluff and "cramming down too much bullshit".
They are 2 completely different playstyles.
Artanis was town in British 2
Therefore, Artanis is scum this time.
Meapak, why did you suddenly forget about Artanis, when he was actually getting more and more suspicious? I think you said something like "nobody except sinani resembles a decent lynch", so what about the guy you called out for "hiding in plain sight" before, who did nothing to convince you otherwise, is not a decent lynch?
Meta rules require you to compare a scum game as well, INB4 Keirathi/Yamato yells at you
There are no "meta rules"
So do you agree or not? My case alone stands by itself and I used no meta at all.
The fact his recent (I think) town play is so different in an "obvious" way just adds to it.
You are also free to check a scum game from his that "discredits" my case or something. Remember that people can play differently as scum at times. For proof check my scum games from Liar Game and Themed Game Mafia
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On April 07 2013 16:31 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 16:27 gonzaw wrote:On April 07 2013 16:23 ObviousOne wrote:On April 07 2013 16:19 gonzaw wrote:
I encourage you guys to read Artanis' filter from British 2
See how "outgoing" he is there. See how he interacts with other people, pressures others, is not afraid to post
Now reread my case and check his filter this game. See the "fear" in his posts, for instance those 2 I mention where he's posting fluff and "cramming down too much bullshit".
They are 2 completely different playstyles.
Artanis was town in British 2
Therefore, Artanis is scum this time.
Meapak, why did you suddenly forget about Artanis, when he was actually getting more and more suspicious? I think you said something like "nobody except sinani resembles a decent lynch", so what about the guy you called out for "hiding in plain sight" before, who did nothing to convince you otherwise, is not a decent lynch?
Meta rules require you to compare a scum game as well, INB4 Keirathi/Yamato yells at you There are no "meta rules" So do you agree or not? My case alone stands by itself and I used no meta at all. The fact his recent (I think) town play is so different in an "obvious" way just adds to it. You are also free to check a scum game from his that "discredits" my case or something. Remember that people can play differently as scum at times. For proof check my scum games from Liar Game and Themed Game Mafia That's not what I'm getting at here, though, and I will go take a look at an Artanis scum game after I post this, but you cannot say "IF HE DOESNT MATCH TOWN HE MUST BE SCUM" because that's based on imperfect information. This precise shit came up in RED. You need to show how it more closely resembles a mafia game, not just how it doesn't resemble a town game. BRB after database check.
I never said anything about his meta until Oats convinced me to look at a game of his (still don't know what makes Oats think Artanis is town though).
AFTER checking that game of his, the differences in play are pretty astonishing, which convinces me my case is right even more. It's not "IF HE DOESNT MATCH TOWN HE MUST BE SCUM" at all.
Geript, can you comment on my case please? I can't see how the stuff brought against rayn is any stronger than what I've posted about Artanis, and it seems you've read my case
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On April 07 2013 16:40 Oatsmaster wrote:Gonzaw you understand what I mean by GUT READ? (it means I felt that he was town reading the thread.) I agree that artanis looks scummy. I still want to lynch Vivax though, Im way more familar with his play and this does not feel like his town play. Also he is scummy!?!?! (so wishywashy right? )
Ehmm....generally when posting gut reads you have to give a slight indication of what gives you said read.
Was it something specific he said that gave you townie points?
Was it some specific behaviour of his? A specific interaction with another player? Something specific he said?
Give more details bro.
I have dozens and dozens of gut reads when I play as town, but I try my best to explain WHY I have them. At least try, specially when you even agree Artanis is scummy and apparently agree with my case.
I'll have to reread Vivax even more, but I doubt my read on him will change from what I posted earlier. I'm eager to see what he does now that he seemingly backed off RO.
Also Oats no offense but in this post you sound like a retard >_>
lol
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On April 07 2013 16:48 ObviousOne wrote:
@Gonzaw:
Artanis[XP] mafia meta highlights based on his one recorded scum game in the database: Haunted Mafia
- Replaced into game at P64
- GG out P116
- Total of perhaps 8 "useful" posts over 50 pages
Characteristics I picked out from Haunted [2010]:
- Makes summaries {conglomerations of players posts} with blanket statements regarding alignment - I used to do this all the time especially in my earliest games
- Feigned/Real inactivity/unavailability - not necessarily a scum tell but a useful scum tool
- Offers to be "helpful" for a period of time - not taking the initiative and doing something useful himself
- Defensive stance - possibly a product of being under suspicion when being replaced in, but in this game was used to misdirect suspicion on lurkers to non-mafia faction
I'm looking for something more recent, but Artanis tends to host games rather than play... search filter only went back to March 2012 and the database shows no scum games other than Haunted.
That game was 2 years ago bro.
Good effort I guess though lol
(damn I'm not sounding very wise lately )
Hmm,...this gives me a good feeling about you though. If Artanis is scum, I see no reason for you to go checking all his gaming history to not push any scum agenda at all (even if artanis is town this still holds true)
On April 07 2013 16:49 Oatsmaster wrote:Haha. That was at a point where I thought he was like this in British. AND CLEARLY HE WASNT. So my basis for my gutread was wrong. With 20+ players, any other reads Gonzaw? Also im totes town right  You know how i play scum
Read my posts.
I'd say Sno is the other guy most likely to be scum.
Nobody else did much to get a good scumread on, rather than null reads and null-leaning-red reads (which I've already expanded on).
Anyways, I'm not calling you scum.
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I'll wait until people start sheeping me I guess.
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EPT
