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On April 09 2013 10:12 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 09:59 Vivax wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 09 2013 09:52 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 09:47 Vivax wrote:
Don't think scum was defending Artanis anyway, it was futile, I was already doing the job for them and they saw it didn't work. Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 09:14 Vivax wrote:
You think Oats, austin, Sno_man is really the final scumteam?it's kinda the thing that falls spontaneously in mind. No particular reason. Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 09:19 Vivax wrote:
RO.
Oats, austin Sno final scumteam.
Thoughts? Welcome to the game, Vivax. Hi. Don't put too much importance into that mix, I pulled it out of my hat. I'm in a trolly mood. I'm serious about what I wrote about MZ and yamato though. I actually read a little of their filters before posting. I'm not putting any importance on that mix. I'm welcoming you to the game, because those were very Vivaxy posts and I smiled at them.
Awwww. I'm feeling all teletubby now.
On April 09 2013 10:21 Keirathi wrote:
Someone (Palmar? decon? Caller?) give me a rundown on what you expect from town MZ vs scum MZ.
Because I went back to LVIII (the only game I've played with him), and his entire contributions to the thread before he died was trying to lynch Palmar (town), marv (town), then callilng Palmar and supersoft (scum) town a bunch. While bitching about the length of the thread, and riding along with the bandwagons. I can't honestly say I expect much from MZ, at least based on that game.
But he called Artanis scum this time.
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On April 08 2013 11:54 geript wrote:Okay, I'm tired of VE being absent. I picked NRA member and was denied. That means that one of Sno, Rayn, Sinani, OO or VE chose it before I got it. I can't be certain that VE chose it but his response here: Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 04:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
Oh cool, and you want to out my role to the thread. Neat.
Seriously fuck this game. Lead me to believe that he chose it. Now, there is nothing alignment indicative of VE choosing NRA member, but having proceeded to do nothing to come across as townie in the least made me extra suspicious. NRA member is a role that's exceptionally dangerous in scum hands because it prevents Investigations and Vigilante shots AND kills the offending player. As town, it could be exceptionally good as it can prevent opposing targetted KP (except as I read it the 1 per night scum KP). Considering VE's actions to not try in the slightest, I have to warn you guys about aiming towards him. More importantly, it leads to actively trying to draw investigations and town KP his direction in order to gain faux KP. When you add VE's general disinterest with this motivation the only conclusion I can come to is him being scum. ##vote VE
On April 08 2013 22:40 Palmar wrote:
Alright people, I'm going to contribute so you don't think I'm scum.
Sn0_man
obviousone
Raynpelikoneet
Sinani206
Visceraeyes
One of these people is the NRA, assuming geript's claim is true. Let's look at who wants to pick NRA.
a) Mafia who wants to avoid townies going after him
b) Townies who thinks mafia is going to go after him.
I'll be perfectly honest here, I thought about picking NRA. The reason being I'm shot night 1 very often when I'm town. It's as simple as that, it's the best self-protective role in the game. Now the reason (aside from my position in the draft) I actually did not decide to go for the role was that I wasn't going to be posting the amount or content required to clearly paint myself town. It would actually be an anti-town role if I took it, because of the possibility that someone unsure of my alignment would decide to check me or something.
So, we can safely assume that the person who has the NRA role either thinks he's doing a splendid job of looking so townie that mafia wants to shoot him and town does not want to do anything to him, or he's scum.
My problem is that none of these top 5 players look like they're putting in the effort to be a town-sided NRA, so I am almost certain that whoever picked the NRA role must be scum.
Assassin is another role I really wanted, but meh. Here's the thing, whoever holds the assassin role is almost certainly scum. The reason for this is that if I had the role I would DEFINITELY shoot on day 1. Worst case scenario is that I shoot a townie who doesn't die and gets mod-confirmed town, it also looks great for me since mafia assassin would almost certainly never pull that powerplay.
so yeah, shooting day 1 worst case = 1 confirmed townie and a very likely townie in the assassin. Lose power
best case scenario = kill scum
So why not? Because our assassin (assuming someone took the role) is scum.
On April 09 2013 10:11 Palmar wrote:
it was so simple. I proved nra and assman were both scum. so we kill nra and assman, and whaddayaknow? I was correct.
man I should get a medal for this game. mvp.
Not so much. I proved why NRA was scum AND I told you who it was AND why it was that person. You can get in line behind me 
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Palmar was town in that game btw.
The thing about MZ is that he called Artanis scum and gonzaw's case better than his own while poking others about other players. He tried hard to look like he wasn't making any mistakes with positioning himself.
But that's currently pretty much the only thing I paid attention to in his filter. Let's see if we even need to make cases.
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so lets lynch rayn please
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On April 09 2013 10:27 Vivax wrote:
Palmar was town in that game btw.
The thing about MZ is that he called Artanis scum and gonzaw's case better than his own while poking others about other players. He tried hard to look like he wasn't making any mistakes with positioning himself.
But that's currently pretty much the only thing I paid attention to in his filter. Let's see if we even need to make cases.
I know Palmar was town. That's why I put the (town) in parentheses by his name the first time :o
FWIW, I think MZ's read progression looks genuine. I have him in the "leaning town" category.
As far as poking people about other players: why can that only come from a scum MZ? He asked for opinions from 4 lurkers about 5 players, including Artanis and (his case) Shelvocke. That doesn't seem strictly scum motivated to me.
Also he dropped (or at least put on the back burner) his case on Shelvocke to push/make sure people didn't forget about Artanis. This post in particular stands out:
On April 08 2013 13:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
we can wifom what scum want us to think by the gonzaw kill from here till kingdom come but we won't get anywhere. Ultimately we need to stick with artanis as he has been consistently scummy and pushed by a now confirmed townie.
@Yamato. I'm really tired with you calling me scum and never backing it up, come up with some reasons or shut up.
Yea, scum *COULD* do that. But I just feel like its way more likely from a townie, considering Artanis flipped Assassin.
And he was concerned about VE.
Yea, I would lean town on MZ. So someone explain the scum read to me.
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I don't get it Kei, but really after VE that was the extent of solid scum reads for me. I'm not liking austin, but I like his attack on Sno so.... I'm planning on sheeping palmer D2 unless something really solid comes up.
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I wont be around for a bit
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Let me illustrate something for you mocsta:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1Yi2Bp0.gif)
You're the one holding paper sounding like an idiot. The rest of the thread is the guy sitting in back who actually can't believe that something that stupid was said.
I'll be back tomorrow.
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Guys this exchange between Art/Myself is pretty important. I think some confirmed townies come out of it.
When reading the below: note, that this occurs before Caller threatens Artanis; hence, all the interactions are scum trying to prove innocence.
(1)
Mocsta RO was the person who introduced the concept of VT claiming.
In more detail: it was claim what role you tried for, if you became a VT. - the idea was to determine scum power roles.
With hindsight (i.e. assassin in the mix): Does this alter your perception of RO? Artanis[Xp] It's a meritious point. Finding out which roles are in the game will help scum figure out the game more easily and use the assassin role properly. An additional point supporting this hypothesis is that DI has claimed that scum would probably get a rolecop with the role, whereas I see many options available for them not to pick a rolecop with this setup. It would only really aid their assassin and it's likely that roles will get outed at some point. His conclusion is premature and potentially damning considering this and the fact that he was so willing to sheep people to avoid responsibility.
Hes calling RO scum softly; but also talks about RO as if he is a 3rd person and not the center of the discussion. If anything the discourse is more focused on role speculation. Concludes with another weak sentmiment of "potentially damning"
This is interesting because, he put VE as a weak scum read too.
I think we have here a proper scum association slip. I am keen to hear others thoughts
Context: Artanis knew he had to get on my good side. He also knew he wanted to escape lynch.
It was pretty clear I was implicating RO as scum for the above; so he has tried to answer the question and make me fill in the gaps; whilst not actually explicitly making a stance on RO. Its pretty wishy-washy and can be backpedaled at any time.
Contrast with below.
MocstaI supported RO idea of forced VTs(At the time)
Does this affect your opinion of me? Artanis[Xp]I would consider your support to be potentially scum motivated, but on its own it doesn't say much as it helps both town and scum to figure out the game. There have been other posts by you that I have found questionable, but your overall game has been town oriented to me. You seem to be willing to figure the game out and you could've easily wagoned on me and no one would've found it suspicious.
Classic scum. He knows I have been pushing for his lynch, and was willing to cut him some slack.
To be consistent with the RO tell above; he says its scummy - directly (unlike RO). And then proceeds to backpedal quickly and throw in a couple generic statements to justify the motive.
Its interesting how different his approach is to discussing RO vs Myself. Its pretty hard to backpedal from what he said about me; but with RO he has left lots of options.
(2)
Mocsta You posted prior that you like a Sinani lynch.
Is this a lurker "stab in the dark" lynch; or do you think there is enough content in the filter to warrant a justified scum lynch? Artanis[Xp] I've thought about it and I don't like a Sinani lynch at this moment. I'd prefer a vig shot rather than wasting time discussing him since he seems to not be willing to provide any information that would help to find out his alignment.
When Yam asked him about Sinani, he repeated someone elses case.
Now when I call it a lurker lynch; he says he prefers a vig shot.
Regardless, he had no issue with Sinani being killed off - which makes Sinani confirmed town (unfortunately - cos the guy is useless)
I am choosing not to believe that Artanis bussed Sinani to get Yam off his back.
Further, town wasting KP on town, is a great way to extend mafia chances of winning; as we can only lynch one scum a day cycle.
(3)
Mocsta Is your Vivax town read founded purely on that you expect him to be disruptive; but he isnt?
Hence, are you applying Vivax specific heuristics - is this the case?
Are you familiar enough with Vivax to even consider having specific heuristics? Artanis[Xp] Yes. I've played with Vivax in British Empire Mini Mafia II in which he was abrasive and in your face all the time. I've played with him in Fruity as well in which he was the same way. This is something I'm sure he's done in scum games as well, and the fact that he's refraining from it leads me to believe he's town. I don't think he would change his gameplay in this way if he weren't.His meta has changed in a way that feels more townie than scummy to me.
I feel like this explanation is in the same confident tone as scum BH expressing town GoodKarma innocence in "The Game". Ironically, no one believed BH.
This is personal, but I am treating Vivax as town based on the above.
Which also means I need to re-read RO association case on Vivax.
(4)
Mocsta Can you please reconfirm who your #1 scumspect is.
You have identified several as scummy; but it isnt clear, who you would bank on. Artanis[Xp] Shevlocke is the person I want lynched this day. I believe I've made that clear. Like Sinani, Shevlocke becomes confirmed town.
====================================
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On April 09 2013 10:55 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Let me illustrate something for you mocsta: You're the one holding paper sounding like an idiot. The rest of the thread is the guy sitting in back who actually can't believe that something that stupid was said. I'll be back tomorrow.
My target is Restraining Order.
Regardless of you being town or scum; you are a blender.
Nothing stupid about that.
Even your power in Personality2, had the potential to blend in and receive mafia checks.
So go crawl back in ya hole; & see u tomorrow.
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11589 Posts
Sinani is not confirmed town
that analysis is terrible.
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On April 09 2013 11:16 yamato77 wrote:
Sinani is not confirmed town
that analysis is terrible.
Im not listening to you.
You were the one so tunneled, you instantly jumped off Artanis when he agreed with you.
And then had the tenacity to call me scum for questioning your motives.
Your terrible at this game Yamato, and the quicker you admit it, the quicker you can improve.
Artanis tried to get Sinani lynched or vig shot to save himself. Scum dont bus scum to save themselves
Let me guess
Your going to throw out that assassin is such a good role; scum were willing to sac scum to save the assassin?
pfft.
And even if i indulged you and said ok, sinani is not confirmed; there is no different with shevlocke; yet there you keep your mouth shut.
Stop being tunneled yam. You're apparently better than this.
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Thnx for the comment on Restraining Order too yam.
/sarcasm
Well done.
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11589 Posts
I guarantee scum bussed Artanis.
Why is it so hard to believe he bussed as well?
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11589 Posts
Moc, if you're town, I'm disappointed in you.
That analysis is really bad.
Your'e calling sinani "confirmed town" because you don't think a scum would call another scum mafia and then NOT agree to lynch him?
Come on, dude.
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On April 09 2013 11:42 yamato77 wrote:
I guarantee scum bussed Artanis.
Why is it so hard to believe he bussed as well?
I dont rule it out.
I just find the probability unlikely.
Since JayBrundage bussed in?Desert? ppl talk about bussing as if its the go-to tactic. But it puts scum in a bad situation almost every time, and isnt worth the gain. Especially if not done convincingly.
When im scum; i have no issue calling team mates scummy when im not under the pump.
just like Artanis called VE scum early on. There is no follow through so its meaningless.
If Sinani is scum then indeed, the pressure Artanis put on him was very high and meets the actual definition of a bus. I.e. sacrifice a teammate to live.
Lets think about this though:
Artanis was most very likely going to walk away from the lynch. I believe he had more votes than VE at end of cycle (or there was only 1-2 votes separation); and quite a few were really starting to consider him townie - publicly.
However, when Artanis was throwing out names (e.g. Sinani) he still had almost every vote on him, and was trying to wriggle out of the noose.
He threw a couple names down (Sinani/Shevlocke) but note, he never tried to follow through with his "weak scum read' VE. -- which with flip knowledge we know is directly avoiding a bus situation already.
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Consider: Artanis was well aware of thread sentiment. To save himself he figured he had a good chance of throwing the lynch to either: VE // Sinani // Shevlock.
If he willing to bus Sinani.. why not bus VE too? He could have had votes split more evenly between the 4 (if you include artanis) candidates; in the hopes that a townie would swing the hammer to Shevlocke without bait.
This didnt happen.
Sinani was also higher in the draft order; and equally could have chosen NRA or as good a role for scum.
So in short: Artanis didnt want to bus VE. He wanted the lynch on Sinani and then Shevlocke (where more votes were).
Using that logic, i find it hard to believe he made an exception for VE; and then decided to bus Sinani.
Sinani and Shevlocke are confirmed town.
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I think StrongandBig is pretty much confirmed for the way he wanted VE gone.
Im not so certain with Geript anymore; hes still town to me, but perhaps im just too paranoid..
his taking down of VE just was so god damn fucking smooth. It crescendo'd just too easily. Its not often all the pieces fall together like that.
If someone is DT, I would consider burning a check on him. Their call though.
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On April 09 2013 11:50 yamato77 wrote:
Moc, if you're town, I'm disappointed in you.
That analysis is really bad.
Your'e calling sinani "confirmed town" because you don't think a scum would call another scum mafia and then NOT agree to lynch him?
Come on, dude.
Read the post below.
I think it expresses the correct context and sentiment at the time pretty well.
I am open to all sorts of scum play (look at what i say about Geript at the bottom); so if you still disagree.
Lets talk about this.
Also, sounds to me we both agree that Shevlocke is turn regardless of filter.
Can you give me thoughts on association with Restraining Order.
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11589 Posts
I'm putting zero stock in your "association" cases.
No, I won't talk about them.
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11589 Posts
the pressure Artanis put on him was very high and meets the actual definition of a bus
This is also patently false. He refused to vote him, even after calling him scum.
That is not a full bus.
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Hey Keirathi. I'm not going to ask you again - why were you trying to say I could be the NRA member?
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EPT
