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cosmicomics
81 Posts
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 16 2013 23:42 Vivax wrote: Sandro: I don't like this post. Quick conclusions. No arguments, no read on BH and VE (just being silly) and conclusive reads on people I actually find scummy. Townish reads on a guy who contributed something pointless. Not the sandro I would expect as town. Leaning red. What does town sandro look like? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 17 2013 06:00 goodkarma wrote: Here's sandroba's filter for fruity mafia, a game where he was town: Fruity Mafia To clarify, my question is, "what is sandroba like here that you find his playstyle distinct from his other town games?" Either Vivax is leaning red because sandroba's reads differ from his, which is a very poor reason to think someone is scum, especially D1, or he is leaning red because sandroba's playstyle is somehow different, which doesn't make sense because sandroba has a unique scumhunting style that can sometimes make "quick conclusions" and obtain "townish reads on a guy who contributed something pointless" that 'normal scumhunting' may not. This question is specifically directed at Vivax. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
You can see in the nested quotes that geript drops RNG for setup spec "I thought I couldn't use it from what was said in pregame and the tarot stuff got me interested." and then moves into asking about a different topic "How do you feel about this being based on some sort of tarot stuff?" So DarthPunk is acting as if geript is still attempting his RNG stuff (he isn't) and trying to lynch him off that, and doesn't actually address him. How do you get so mad at someone you totally dismiss his posting so quickly? ##Vote: DarthPunk | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 17 2013 08:51 zarepath wrote: At the same time, do you really see scum laying a vote down that early? I'll have to check, but I dont' think thread sentiment was exactly pushing for a geript lynch. Laying down votes is alignment null, and him actually trying to push a lynch or not doesn't matter. He misinterpreted geript as still doing his RNG stuff when it was clear he wasn't. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 17 2013 20:36 DarthPunk wrote: LoL just cacthing up now. One thing though. I doubt anyone could interpret my vote as anything more than some pressure to stop his RNG bullshit. That's clearly what it was but you claiming that I was trying to lynch him off that is complete BS. I doubt this misinterpretation could be anything but deliberate. ##unvote ##Vote:Cosmicomics Explain how the fuck you think I was actually doing anything more than a pressure vote on someone in order to get them to cease a terrible idea/plan? DarthPunk is caught lying and is trying to backpedal. My post specifically mentioned how geript had already stopped pursuing RNG material. Why would a town pressure vote to stop someone's "terrible idea" if they already stopped doing it in the very post they quoted? There was a slight possibility that DarthPunk was also trying to shut down geript's tarot card speculation, but in this post it is clear that it was not what he was doing. He himself admits that it was pressure to stop RNG. So there is absolutely no town reason why he would do this to geript. The only reason is to misinterpret geript as doing "terrible idea/plans", and try to mislynch him off that. ##Vote: DarthPunk | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
Upon a personal reading of his filter alone, he doesn't seem that bad. I see consistency in the evolution of his reads (everything comes from somewhere). I also see him trying to use meta (on GreYMisT and sandroba) in what I think is a sensible way. The initial suspicion on him before he made his big post made sense, but was cleared up as his "playstyle". GreYMisT's case seems to be "goodkarma can't make a good case he is scum", which isn't sound because "good case" is pretty subjective, and townies can fail to make "good cases" all the time. I'm a slow reader so I might have missed other key points but I don't think he is a good lynch. zarepath Ehh ... I'm leaning newbie town player trying to adapt to the major leagues. While more experienced players may know that posts such as "I'm town" are jokes to be ignored for real content, a newer player may not. His questioning of my initial case on DarthPunk seems like a very difficult one to fake from a scum perspective, as it exploits word definition. I would give him a chance to get adjusted first. Vivax Doesn't quite understand how I play but is putting in what seems to be genuine effort for now, especially with his efforts to try to focus attention on me. If there is anything specific you want to point out I can look at it, because I like to spent my time (at least for D1) reading at a larger scale. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 18 2013 08:18 DarthPunk wrote: This is LITERALLY your argument. "Guise! let's lynch DP because he says he was pressuring to stop RNG arbitrary lynch selection when geript was in fact using Tarot cards to arbitrarily lynch someone! He lied he is scum!" Could you point out where geript suggested using Tarot cards to arbitrarily lynch someone? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:04 DarthPunk wrote: How am I supposed to understand your perspective when it is so obviously detached from anything I can identify with? But Obviously I do. Otherwise I wouldn't have voted for you. So you admit that you yourself (innocently) misinterpreted geript's posts, and I'm scummy for thinking that you misinterpreted him? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
Upon review VE's case does look pretty bad. ##Unvote: DarthPunk I'll be looking into the alternatives to decide. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
Gonna go with GreYMisT because zarepath will quickly expose himself if he is indeed scum. ##Vote: GreYMisT | ||
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cosmicomics
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cosmicomics
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On March 19 2013 02:57 zarepath wrote: If by "dealt with" you mean where he said "I assumed he was trying to figure out if I was a smurf so I ignored it?" I'm not satisfied with that answer. If he can simply say "I'm not Yamato" then town stops thinking they share a QT. How does this line of questioning help determine alignment? VE, could you give an updated stance on DP? You kinda dropped off last night and left your vote on him. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 19 2013 13:03 VisceraEyes wrote: He has done nothing this game. The last game I played with him he aggressively pushed his reads and pressured suspects. He's done nothing like that in this thread. He showed early aggression based on weak reasoning, but all he's done since is defend GK. Literally. There is nothing wrong with defending town reads who are potential lynch candidates. To say that "all he's done" is defend goodkarma may be true, but this point doesn't take into full consideration the context of the action. Many people were discussing goodkarma and deciding whether he should be the lynch or not, he himself included. On March 17 2013 13:46 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: goodkarma On March 18 2013 04:11 VisceraEyes wrote: For the record, I'm still very much good with a GK lynch. I just find myself more sure about DarthPunk having filtered him and thought about it. There should be absolutely no issue with Wade Fell defending whom he thinks is a town read, unless VisceraEyes suspects that both goodkarma and Wade Fell are scum, and that Wade Fell is defending goodkarma using fabricated evidence. Nothing in VisceraEyes' case indicates that he believes this, so there is no town alibi for saying this. Not only that, but a glance at Wade Fell's filter shows his interaction with TestSubject893 and ThePeashooter, which VisceraEyes totally ignores, even though earlier on in the day he acknowledges' one of Wade Fell's posts on ThePeashooter. On March 18 2013 00:21 VisceraEyes wrote: Re: ThePeashooter Wade makes an excellent point about this post. Unlike Ryu who comments on the matter and lets it pass, TPS goes to the trouble of finding and quoting all of these Wade posts he didn't like. Why? What's the point? They're already in the thread once and he's bitching about it. WHY PUT THEM IN THE THREAD AGAIN? ##Unvote: goodkarma ##Vote: ThePeashooter You don't say that someone makes an excellent point, and then totally ignore it when evaluating their play. But that is what VisceraEyes tries to do. He sweeps away something that he himself called "an excellent point" and misconstrues Wade Fell as wasting all his time D1 defending goodkarma, which isn't even scum indicative as his posting shows. Additionally you can see in this post that VisceraEyes drops his initial case on goodkarma. The vote switch indicates that whatever point Wade Fell brought up was strong enough to pursue than his original case on goodkarma. Therefore, the magnitude of VisceraEyes' misinterpretation is greater for he is a hypocrite in saying that Wade Fell did nothing, when he himself asserts that Wade Fell made an excellent point. On March 19 2013 13:03 VisceraEyes wrote: But that's not all he's done. Wade Fell is also a mason. I know this because he's been masoned to me all during this phase. He claims to have been masoned to GK during the day. All he's done in this mason convo has been push his same weak arguments he made in the thread at first, then just passively agree with anything I said. He wasn't trying to divine my alignment. And if his posts are to be believe he didn't mason GK to divine his alignment either. He's been masoning town-reads. To what end? He's not bringing anything new to the table in mason chats, that's for sure. Again, more misinformation. Here VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell's usage of the mason role is indicative of him being scum. He asserts that the mason role should be used to determine alignment first and foremost. Well that's blatantly wrong. There is nothing wrong, and in fact there is something very valuable with masoning a town read in order to bounce around thoughts and ideas. Wade Fell himself explains his mason choice: On March 19 2013 13:39 Wade Fell wrote: As an aside, another reason I masoned GK is that I've interacted with him in QTs before when I coached him, and I knew I'd be able to get a perfect read on him from doing so, as well as help his scumhunting. How is that not a sensible response? It helps Wade Fell solidify his read on goodkarma, and also helps direct goodkarma's scumhunting as Wade Fell acted as his coach. There is very good townie motivations to mason a town read. However VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell used his role poorly and therefore must be scum. Let's explore that next. On March 19 2013 13:03 VisceraEyes wrote: This leads me to conclude that Wade Fell is some sort of scum mason attempting to manipulate townies. He claims he can mason a different person every phase, and phase one he chose GK and phase 2 he chose me. Ok. VisceraEyes' hypothesis is that Wade Fell is a scum mason trying to manipulate townies. Where in this post does VisceraEyes consider goodkarma as scum? He doesn't. Let me hash that out again. In the starting sections of my post I demonstrated that VisceraEyes considered goodkarma scum. Additionally he disparaged Wade Fell's play in defending goodkarma (another contradiction), but now he is trying to push Wade Fell as scum on the basis that he is masoning goodkarma, which is one of his town reads? How is Wade Fell masoning goodkarma supporting evidence that Wade Fell is a scum mason attempting to manipulate townies? It isn't. VisceraEyes is getting muddled up in his pile of lies. Either you think goodkarma is town and that Wade Fell's mason choice was to manipulate him, or you think goodkarma is scum and that Wade Fell fake masoned a scum partner. What VisceraEyes is doing is calling both goodkarma and Wade Fell scum, and using "town goodkarma" as evidence of Wade Fell scum. Only scum do this. On March 19 2013 13:03 VisceraEyes wrote: So WF is scum. Talk about it. On March 19 2013 13:13 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't think I'm allowed, which is part of why I revealed him. Without the ability to post the mason logs, it seems weak anyway and it's a large portion of what makes him scummy to me. So VisceraEyes admits himself that his case seems weak without the mason logs. However, once Wade Fell releases the mason logs, he doesn't talk about the content at all! If the strongest body of evidence comes from the mason logs, and they were released, wouldn't you go in and use that as evidence to convince people that Wade Fell is scum? Well VisceraEyes doesn't, because there is nothing that alignment telling in there. He himself says Wade Fell doesn't push his ideas in the QT but he himself presents very flimsy contributions himself. Where is his push of DarthPunk? He called him scummy all D1, left his vote on DarthPunk and checked out, and has picked up some new targets. On March 18 2013 04:00 VisceraEyes wrote: VOTE FOR DARTHPUNK HE SCUM YO On March 18 2013 04:11 VisceraEyes wrote: For the record, I'm still very much good with a GK lynch. I just find myself more sure about DarthPunk having filtered him and thought about it. No more comments on DarthPunk. No more comments on goodkarma. Just hopping along wagons when he can, and dropping them without explanation. His original case on DarthPunk was very shoddy. Additionally is the nonsense about him taking a hit. On March 19 2013 17:09 Ace wrote: Why would you claim Vet though as Town? Even if the Scum clearly know they shot you, they have no idea how the hit failed. Roleclaiming serves no purpose here. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
Vote: VisceraEyes When I get time I'll be catching up more on ThePeashooter business but I want people to look into VisceraEyes in the meantime. | ||
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cosmicomics
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cosmicomics
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On March 20 2013 08:56 Wade Fell wrote: still waiting to hear your thoughts on my glorious TPS case The anger at spamming seems reasonable (as in I can see a townie doing it), given that a few of the posts were avoidable (smurf accidents). I agree that he looked into goodkarma after you pointed it out, but I'm not sure how strong of a read that is given that I know nothing of his tempo, and that there are many town players who take time to develop their thoughts and cases without updating each change in the thread. I agree most on the "hang back" aspect with regard to his zarepath read (I guess, the non-Coag read that stuck out to me). If he continues to tunnel into Coag, I would agree with you and join you, but it seems like with recent events (kita & WoS), he is joining more relevant topics. After looking at the back and forth between you and him concerning your case, I think he is trying his hardest not to just go all in and call you scum, and I think it would be prudent for you to do the same. Not because he is most certainly town, but I don't think the way you are going about it is going to get him lynched (as I think there are elements of bias as there could be potential town motivations for some of the things you bring up), and if he is town then it will create a real big mess that will really hurt town (I speak after obsing Personality Mafia, so the need to constantly take a step back and re-evaluate is huge on my mind). | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
I think it would be most beneficial to everyone if you could consolidate your posting and present your defense against kita's main case. Or build a strong case of your own on somebody. Because right now it is getting more difficult to read you and you are giving scum / good intentioned townies more fuel. I'll be looking over your meta, the case and the posts in interest in the meantime. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
He didn't do anything to address my case, or take the opportunity to follow up a question concerning his #1 scum read Wade Fell On March 20 2013 08:51 cosmicomics wrote: VisceraEyes what do you make of Wade Fell's GreYMisT case? Everyone in thread dismissed the VisceraEyes / Wade Fell business on the basis that the night actions would resolve the mess. What has VisceraEyes done with his time since the pressure eased off him? On March 20 2013 07:32 VisceraEyes wrote: YOLO right? ##Unvote ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles On March 20 2013 08:09 VisceraEyes wrote: Your turn. What do you think of Ryu? On March 20 2013 10:49 VisceraEyes wrote: Ugh why do you make me want to LYNCH YOU SO MUCH DP?! Have I played with you when we're both town before? On March 21 2013 00:31 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm intrigued by how often Mocsta claims he hasn't read the whole thread, but what's more intriguing is how his story on how much he's read keeps changing. Why isn't he doing anything to push Wade Fell?? Wasn't he his #1 scum read? On March 20 2013 06:31 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm actually down with lynching anywhere inside Wade Fell, RyuSakura, Coagulation They're in order of my preference. Even now, as we try to untangle this "3P mess", we see him say On March 21 2013 02:58 VisceraEyes wrote: I have not claimed scum. I'm town. Wade is ridiculous. Not Wade Fell is scum. "Wade is ridiculous", implying that Wade Fell is town and being ridiculous. Why isn't he pushing Wade Fell as scum if he was his #1 scum read, and is now fabricating ridiculous things to push him? The most simplest explanation to this whole ordeal is that VisceraEyes is scum, jumping around from target to target to see who will latch without meaningful contribution, made up the 3P business up to sidetrack the town even more, especially since we are deep into D2 without too much consolidation after WaveofShadow claimed. VisceraEyes is scum and making crap up | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 21 2013 03:31 geript wrote: ##unvote ##vote: VisceraEyes What is this ninja vote? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
I didn't see any host confirmation of this Mirror, so if you believe it exists then you believe VisceraEyes' words. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 21 2013 12:37 goodkarma wrote: There's like honestly no reason... What you just posted makes sense to me. The "not useful" meta argument I had doesn't seem to hold water, as I believe this is a solid case. While your day one was very scummy, as was some of your wishy-washy reads from today, I feel your case deserves consideration. Unfortunately, time is short. I'm going to change my vote while I look further into this.: ##Unvote ##Vote: Ace goodkarma acknowledges that Mr. Wiggles is very scummy, but "feels" like his case is still worth consideration. He then puts his vote on Ace while acknowledging the lack of time. Let me repeat that. He acknowledges that his super scummy read Mr. Wiggles made a case, that the case "feels" ok even though he didn't have time to read it, an proceeds to side with his super scum read Mr. Wiggles. He moves his vote before he looks further into this. And he doesn't look into it at all! This means that goodkarma, without properly reading his scum read Mr. Wiggles' case decided it was better to err on his side and vote Ace. Before reading. How does he respond to Ace's flip? On March 22 2013 02:02 goodkarma wrote: Would it be possible for us to, like maybe, consolidate on the top two candidates like ~halfway through the day cycle so that, like maybe, we can have a more decisive vote result that can actually be analyzed? It turned into a 3-way split result... Like how in the fuck did you expect things would end well? But goodkarma, you switched too... There were like 4+ people who couldn't be bothered to consolidate on the top two candidates of the day (VE/Mr. Wiggles), and I thought fuck it (I know, not great reasoning... feel free to hammer me but tbh exactly my thought process). What I saw in Mr. Wiggle's most recent case was what I perceived to be a blatant scumslip. We're talking about the legendary ace. Wanting to hunt who he thought to be 3P and not scum. It just didn't make sense from a town perspective, so even if he wasn't in the game that long I opted to lynch him. But if you want a TL;DR for what to take from the ace mislynch: We need to consolidate on two candidates, and anyone who can't be bothered to and/or brings up new candidates late in the cycle should be looked at with extra suspicion. Maybe some people here didn't know better before, but you do now. So no more excuses. He blames town for not voting in a way where he can analyze the vote results. Where does he get off doing this? Even when he talks about the Ace mislynch, notice where the blame lies. He blames Ace for not playing the way he should have. He doesn't admit any fault of his own, he doesn't give an explanation why did a hard hard 180 on someone he called super scummy, and he doesn't even bother trying to draw conclusions about Mr. Wiggles' alignment! He is overly concerned with how he himself is perceived rather than showing any indication of trying to figure out the game. He blames everyone else but makes sure to explain why he deserves none of the blame. He lectures town on how they should behave rather than providing any meaningful contribution / insights, even into the person who swayed him to lynch Ace. Who flipped town. goodkarma is scum | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 22 2013 06:17 Vivax wrote: Cosmicomics where did this opinion go? Who will you lynch first tomorrow? Depends on the night results. His behavior and actions aside, VisceraEyes' vet claim is very strong indicator that he isn't scum if it is true. The key phrase is "if it is true". Because this game has a closed setup, we do not know the nature of scum KP. There is no reason to suppose that it should go by standard precedent (in which I suspect 3 initial KP for scum), and with the flip of a role like Nightmare, I don't find it a stretch to think scum were compensated with other forms of KP. Therefore if the night actions suggest that VisceraEyes' claim is indeed valid, then I swallow my pride because it is more likely that VisceraEyes is playing funky than it is for scum to sacrifice one of their KP to fakeclaim vet, and we get down to lynching goodkarma and unfolding things from there. If not, it's tunnel city because there is nothing aside from his claim that I see as reasonable body of evidence that he is town. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 22 2013 15:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Wade Fell the Messenger I swallow my pride and admit I was wrong. Looking at the flips, I'm inclined to say that scum have 2KP. I mentioned I expected 3KP because that is what normal games of this size tend to have, not of arbitrary speculation. goodkarma doesn't seem a likely scum kill at all, as there was somewhat a decent amount of suspicion on him. Scum want to keep mislynches around to deflect suspicion and focus off of themselves. I find it more likely that Vivax was the one who offed goodkarma, given that he was adamant about him being scum for a large portion of the game. Wade Fell doesn't seem a likely scum kill given that he is scum. That leaves sciberbia and Vivax as the night kills. 2KP. It seems a very low amount given that we flipped 1 night vig, 1 mason vig and we have 1 living night vig, but it could be that it stays constant or is scaled appropriately. That said I swallow my pride again and say that VisceraEyes' claim is very likely true. That means it is very unlikely that he is scum. Also Wade Fell flipped scum too. Definitely not scum. That said I've lost my primary reads and so I'll be working back up on constructing stronger ones. All there is to say about Mr. Wiggles has already been said. Vote Mr.Wiggles On March 21 2013 03:03 Wade Fell wrote: So I need to do a reread but 90% likely I'll be making a case on either vivax testsubj or wiggles. Probably vivax since testsubj doesn't really seem to be playing any more. lynching WoS or TPS is out of the question at this point and tbh if WoS's claim is true he's gonna get shot anyways along with TPS fairly quickly Not hard evidence, but I think a subtle slip. Brings up 3 subjects to make a case on, addresses the first 2 he named, then brings up 2 more people out of nowhere. I don't mind if it is a wagon between me and Mr. Wiggles. The best kind of lynches are the ones between 1 town and 1 scum. I'll wait until more people take sides before addressing the cases set before me. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 22 2013 17:26 DoYouHas wrote: It should be noted that in my mind the lynching objectives of the 3p, if it exists, should be the same as the towns, given how horrendously fast we are losing this. Because of this I consider VE off the table for today. What is this? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 23 2013 05:18 DoYouHas wrote: I think it is reasonable to assume that if there is a third party, their win condition would require them to prolong this game. If we keep mislynching, the game ends quickly, the 3rd party doesn't have sufficient time to recruit, less likely they will win. Therefore, I think if there is a 3rd party, their win condition and towns currently line up and so lynching into suspected third party would be a bad idea. What are your thoughts/reads on Geript, DP, and Ryu? Ah. It just threw me off because you were (I think) the first one who suggested that the Mirror was scum. I have reasonable town on geript for this post. On March 16 2013 16:22 Wade Fell wrote: geript is there a particular reason you haven't voted for zarepath since you already rnged him? it seems to me that if you realy wanted to rng your lynch, you'd use the lynch you've already rnged. Why the cold feet? This is a loaded question that comes really early on in the game. How is it loaded? Either geript would have to advocate an rng lynch on zarepath, rng someone else (which is what he tried to do) or stop rng. Not too hard as scum can punish him for any of these options. On March 16 2013 16:42 Wade Fell wrote: There's no reasonable reason for him NOT to vote zarepath other than that he's protecting his scumbuddy Yea here it is in action. What's his alternative? Continue with the RNG and vote zarepath. Not that hard to call geript scum for that either. Given how early in the day this was (like less than an hour?), I don't think Wade Fell decided to pick apart his scum buddy and soft accuse him of being scum (notice he gives the reasoning but doesn't actually call him scum). Going off of that is DarthPunk On March 18 2013 10:10 DarthPunk wrote: NO you are scummy for sheeping a bad case on me which relied on turning an obvious pressure vote in this very first hour of the game into something more. And then trying to lynch me for it. When it was plain for all to see it was a start of the game pressure vote and nothing more. DESPITE me being wrong about the tarot thing. For DarthPunk to be town, he must be a very stubborn player. That is the only way to reconcile his attitude / posting with townie motivation. So is this town stubborn or scum stubborn? Need to look at other bodies of evidence. His stance on VisceraEyes is really strange. D1 he tried to get him lynched, and also well into D2 but at the end of the day VisceraEyes becomes his least liked wagon. What is disconcerting is that he puts me as a top lynch preference even though I was one of the main proponents of the VisceraEyes wagon. Very strange. Possibly because he is stubborn? I'm on the other side of the fence concerning this post: On March 23 2013 06:29 DarthPunk wrote: Hi guys. I am pretty frustrated with the way I am playing. I was wrong about goodkarma and now I need to go back and figure out why. All my town reads are dead, with the exception of Viscera Eyes who now cannot be scum IMO. I am about to leave I have 2 weddings to go to today. When I get home I'll dig through filters and try and figure out what is going on. So first, if he meant to type "town reads" it would make no sense because that is what usually happens at night. Scum shoot town players and so it's to be expected that your town reads may die. That is a terrible excuse to reconstruct reads. However, town players can make typos too: the second clause indicates that he might have meant "scum reads". He had goodkarma as scum, and maybe Vivax as scum too, and having the carpet pulled under you like that is a good reason to reconstruct reads. I still have to do some (meta) research to figure out if he is OMGUS stubborn type town. Neutral (not null) until I can do more homework as his play (I think) can be adequately explained by scum motivations or stubborn OMGUSing townie. RyuSuzaku To be honest I haven't paid too much attention on him either. Glancing at his filter he had basically the same perspective as me with the VisceraEyes ordeal, and so I think his posts after the night kills will serve as strong indicators if he was honestly mistaken or just pretending to be. I.e. I need to do some homework on him too. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 23 2013 11:10 TestSubject893 wrote: EBWOP: Somehow I missed the first line in the second section about geript. I see now what that section is meant to say. I'm still not super happy about it though. Why defend geript right now? DoYouHas asked me for my thoughts and reads and that is what I gave. What is your primary concern that you are voting for me? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
This is his initial response to GreYMisT flipping town. On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote: well, that sucks. I was pretty convinced GM was scum given how suspicious he was acting. Pretty disappointing play from him, especially given his incredibly strong role. Obviously I was wrong, but I'm town and I had completely valid reasons for attacking GM. Read pages 36~41 for context and the general types of responses people had to the flip. RyuSuzaku responds in a vastly different way. He goes out of his way to defend himself, even though there was no pressure on him for being wrong. Whether he had "valid reasons" or not doesn't matter, it's his attitude in this post that is out of place. Notice the focus he brings upon himself - "I was convinced ... I was wrong ... I'm town ... I had valid reasons". And the context indicates no pressure at all. Which suggests that this post betrays a mentality of inherent guilt. In the same exact post we see him addressing DoYouHas' and VisceraEyes' suspicions. On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote: (referring to DoYouHas) Sadly I can't tell whether you are saying these things as a scum trying to push responsibility for a mislynch, or as a townie who is just bad. (referring to VisceraEyes) Why are you cherry picking me? Are you scum? Again, a very defensive posture, where he wants to call them scum without actually bringing forth an accusation. I mean, what kind of response do you expect when asking "Are you scum?" It's rhetorical in nature. There is a pretty good dialogue between him and VisceraEyes when he actually follows up (read page 41). That's all I got so far since much of what I suspect depends on how he posts today, especially concerning what his new stance on VisceraEyes is, but we can start by talking about this. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 21 2013 12:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler + On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote: lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote: your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party. Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote: I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote: Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote: Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months. Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Where did Ace do any of this? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 24 2013 07:45 RyuSuzaku wrote: also one thing I forgot to mention is that I would expect a town-VE right now to be crying about the lack of activity. Instead, he seems to be completely content with letting the thread die, which is very uncharacteristic of his town play. So you calling him scum or what? How is he culpable of "letting the thread die"? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 24 2013 14:41 RyuSuzaku wrote: Yes, I am calling him scum. Read my posts. While I agree with you on behavioral analysis, that means that scum chose only to use 1KP so VisceraEyes could fake claim vet status or that they have some really really weird KP formula. How do you think last night's KP went down? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 25 2013 01:29 Kenpachi wrote: hes a case of wifom where i'd take the wine. Say, lets look at it this way. Those that voted VE could have had a freepass to look town so BH attacks him for being 3rd party. EASY way for mafia to gain credibility for doing what is best for town. Now, I certainly did not expect a BH hit, and mafia probably did not either so cosmicomics is a fair bet for mafioso. So look at the VE wagon again. also btw zarepath, you have been looking irresolute the entire game with posts like these grats, you were also one of 3 to vote Wiggles on Day 2.. I never considered VisceraEyes 3rd party, stop lying. Additionally, the 3 of 4 main wagons on day 2 were town. Ace (8), goodkarma (3) and Mr. Wiggles (3) and VisceraEyes (6). There's no logical reason why anyone should expect scum to be especially on the VisceraEyes' wagon. There's more sense that scum would want Ace dead because they know they can push VisceraEyes later because it is an "EASY way for mafia to gain credibility", and so by your reasoning people should be looking at Ace's wagon. You are trying to get me lynched without actually calling me scum so that if I do you don't take any responsibility and you can blame the poor sap who happened to bite. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 24 2013 13:46 DarthPunk wrote: The same could be said for your posts with me. Anyway I think it's your problem because many others have had town reads on me. How is this meaningful? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 25 2013 05:27 geript wrote: @Cosmic I don't think VE would be crazy enough to do that. After listening to the podcast he seems to have a distinct plan going through his head and leaving good players alive doesn't make any sense in that regard. Besides, earlier VE seemed off and was bouncing around which was very different from how he played in LX, but in reviewing his previous games that's something he's done previously as town. How do you feel about Glurio and WoS? Yea I don't either, just trying to understand where RyuSuzaku is coming from. I have a decent town read on glurio based on his defense of kitaman27's case against him. They way he addresses the case is a simple line by line bullet points, and the style seems very loose and off the top of his head. I went through his filter to double check the facts and his explanations, and they all fit very well, which highly suggests town when coupled with the style he wrote it. While his read on me is founded upon not the most solid reasoning - "Both Vivax and sciberia were suspicious of him at the end of the night. High likelihood of being scum.", I don't see it a malicious usage, and a quite understandable one a newer town player might make. I'm inclined to believe WaveofShadow's claim. I think he is blue. I don't find it too strange that he isn't dead tonight given that scum with roleblocker is pretty much expected and there is no reason to spend precious KP to shoot WaveofShadow and confirm another townie with his check when you can just roleblock him and WIFOM later. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
Also, could I get your thoughts on glurio? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 25 2013 11:36 WaveofShadow wrote: If we lose 3 more townies tonight I'm pretty sure we're fucked. You mean 2? Or do you have a different interpretation of last nights KP? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 22 2013 08:07 Vivax wrote: Coag do you like my [scum] reads? (from a prior post: zarepath, cosmicomics, Wade Fell, goodkarma, DoYouHas, TranceStorm) On March 22 2013 08:08 Coagulation wrote: remove wade fell and add wiggles and they are acceptable. I would probably add ryu and take out zerap also. And Coagulation as well. Need fresh updates. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 25 2013 11:18 kitaman27 wrote: So I just reread the entire thread from the start with the flips in mind because we're clearly not seeing the big picture here. I also read the entire filters of each player (some players more than once). The downside of spending three hours reading is that it leaves absolutely no time to make a case, but I'm quite confidant that cosmic is scum. I think I'm more sure of this, than the glurio case and will post a case tomorrow about why I believe so. Unfortunately, if I'm hit tonight, this leaves you guys with the WIFOM of whether or not I was hit because I shared my intentions, but at this point I'm think there is a strong enough chance of cosmic flipping mafia that I'd rather share it than take it to my grave. I disagree with your assessment of him kenpachi and I ask that everyone take a good look at his filters. Cool. Don't know why you would spend a paragraph playing out the WIFOM yourself but whatever. Do you still think glurio is scum? You were pretty quick to drop it, unlike the WaveofShadow case. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
Sorry about the multi-posts. Thinks just came to me as I was reviewing things and I didn't want to lose the thoughts. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 25 2013 13:03 WaveofShadow wrote: In any case all of that is just speculation and isn't important right now considering we can't even hunt scum. Cosmic you think kita is scum and I think he's town. Care to elaborate? I'm honestly not so certain of my reads anymore considering how the game has gone thus far. Really wish I could actually fucking use my night action. Of course; if anything I plan to elaborate all of tomorrow. I'm just waiting for his response concerning glurio for the final piece in my case. I haven't bothered defending myself because 1) most people haven't made an honest effort to lynch me, and instead have been riding on atmosphere / feelings 2) the people who have, I haven't seen particularly strong points. Am I conceited? Maybe. But I don't think it's really beneficial to go back, find every instance of suspicion on me, and then address them point by point. I'll address the cases if they become relevant. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 25 2013 14:16 Coagulation wrote: ryu and geript are who im looking at for lynch tomorrow. Do you think Wade Fell's interaction with geript was all faked and planned out? | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
kitaman27 is a seasoned mafia vet and is capable of playing very well as either alignment. You won't catch him with "scum slips" or anything blatant like that. You need to look at deeper motives and really look at context to see subtle mafia agenda actions. First is his big case on WaveofShadow D2. If you reread how D2 unfolded, you would have noticed that there was a reasonable amount of suspicion and attention on Wade Fell as he garnered several votes. You have to watch the timing. kitaman27's case comes in at a timing to shift the attention off the Wade Fell / VisceraEyes interaction entirely, by offering a new prospective lynch target, namely WaveofShadow. His follow up post addressing the Wade Fell / VisceraEyes reveals the mafia agenda. On March 20 2013 09:09 kitaman27 wrote: It would be silly to lynch either of VE or BH this cycle. Both are claimed blues. Let the mafia deal with them. If the issue is still around in two or three cycles, than we address it, but not on day two where there are so many other things to look at. It's very subtle isn't it? He shifts attention away from the whole VisceraEyes / Wade Fell by "letting mafia deal with them". He implants the idea into town that it is very "silly" to look into these two suspects, and that the night actions will resolve the whole issue. The bolded part shows his intent to push the focus away. So many other things to look at? Why is the Wade Fell / VisceraEyes situation something not worth looking at / trying to figure out? Why does he work to take not only his attention, but the rest of town's away from the issue onto a new topic in WaveofShadow? This is mafia misdirection at it's finest. You don't have to come into the thread and take bold stances you will be accountable for later on. All you have to do is evade the issue entirely and get people to focus on something else. No one can hold you accountable. This is further supported in the way that he really works to drive this case home. + Show Spoiler + On March 20 2013 09:39 kitaman27 wrote: Being defensive is a newbie scum trait, so I don't think that really plays much of a part. This is his 5th or 6th game though, so he should be more than capable of pushing a case. In one of his early posts he mentions how he would rather not provide a scum read until he is prepared to develop a strong case. It's 100+ hours and 60ish pages into the game and he still hasn't done so. On March 20 2013 09:45 kitaman27 wrote: I write up a case against you and your response is that you've never lied? Where am I calling you a liar? My case is that you show no interest in pushing a lynch. Even with this post, you ask "who are the lynch targets"? A town player decides a lynch target and pushes it on other players. A mafia player looks at the bandwagons and selects his favorite. I don't need another player to defend you. I'd like a response from yourself on the issues I mentioned. On March 20 2013 09:48 kitaman27 wrote: This is exactly what I'm referring to. Just minutes earlier you posted about how you wanted to know who where the lynch candidates in order to determine who to look at. Now you're voting Wiggles with a one line explanation. You clearly couldn't have taken the time to read through the filters of the players you just asked about. So why is it that you are voting based on town sentiment, rather than finding a player that you believe is scum and explaining to everyone why you believe this is the case. On March 20 2013 10:06 kitaman27 wrote: I might have to call you a liar now. Your explanation on the DarthPunk vote was: Your explanation on the GreYMisT vote was larger, but at that point you were preaching to the choir, as you were the 12th person on him. There was nobody to convince at that point. And here is your explanation of the wiggles vote, aided by a few other one liners about how he is lazy. Of course I would like you to go into further detail. Calling yourself town doesn't convince other players that you are town. Posting a case and pushing a lynch is what does that. I spent 2 hours reading the thread and another hour on my case against you. You look like you've sent 3 minutes deciding who to jump on. On March 20 2013 10:16 kitaman27 wrote: Since I made it pretty clear what I thought about his alignment, I'd be much more interested listening to what you had to say, rather than justifying it for you. Do you have a mafia read on Wave? On March 20 2013 10:26 kitaman27 wrote: How is your alignment in past games relevant at all? Look at how much effort he puts into getting everyone to focus on this lynch. Now, let's do a comparison case to the glurio case. Absolutely no follow up. No effort into convincing people, no effort to get opinions out of people, no effort to push the wagon. What's the difference? There isn't a pressing need to take attention off of a teammate like in the case of Wade Fell. There is only the need to maintain the image of scumhunting. Now, let's look further into his glurio read. If you read D2 carefully, you would notice that glurio posted a case on WaveofShadow maybe 3 hours earlier than kitaman27's case. Pull up the cases side by side and compare. What do you notice? They both use very similar bodies of evidence and similar reasoning. The only difference is that kitaman27's case has more paragraphs and quotes and formatting. But the essence is the same. Yet this is kitaman27's #2 scum read. Think about it. If someone makes a case using the same body of evidence and same type of reasoning before you present your own case, wouldn't that give you serious pause before thinking they are scum? Given how vehemently kitaman27 pushed the WaveofShadow case, it must mean that he felt that the case was really good, and that since only glurio picked up on it before anyone else, that glurio was thinking along the same lines. I.e. he was thinking like town. But nope. kitaman27 has glurio at #2 scum read. Not only that, but as glurio perceptively points out On March 26 2013 02:02 glurio wrote: You still have a scum read on me even after i posted a case on CC, which is my #1 scumread at the moment, kita? I'd like to see how you plan to make that work. kitaman27 isn't thinking holistically about the game at all, despite telling everyone that that is exactly what he has been doing. kitaman27 has been subtly working behind the sense to further mafia agenda and his inconsistencies and timings betray himself. To close I would draw attention to Mr. Wiggles' posts where he notes kitaman27's passive play and apathy, which serves to further highlight how out of place his intense WaveofShadow wagon push is. On March 24 2013 02:44 Mr. Wiggles wrote: People to really watch out for: Kitaman: Kita's play has actually been pretty passive. He's made cases, but has never really pushed them that much. Day 1, he was going after GoodKarma, couldn't get traction, and just sort of went, "Oh well, I'll vote for GreY then I guess", with only a line of explanation that doesn't even say he's scummy. The same thing happened on Day 2, where he made a case on WaveofShadow, but it was deflected by him claiming DT. So, he just votes for me, but doesn't really make too big of a push and only had a couple posts where he doesn't even strongly call me scum: He uses very neutral language, saying he'd support the lynch, and that he'd be willing to vote if there's enough votes. He says he didn't like one thing I did, and then finally votes me not because he says he thinks I'm scum, but because I'm not around. For someone he wants to kill, and who he voted for, he does a good job of not really explaining his read or of ever calling me scum. He did the same thing with the GreYMisT vote. He doesn't push his reads strongly, he doesn't call the people he switches to later scum, and he just votes on whatever the wagon is at the end of the day His passive play combined with the lack of thread interaction and seeming apathy towards the lynch leads me to believe he doesn't have town's best interests in mind, and is scum. Town should watch out for him, because his posts are nicely structured and he makes nice "cases" on people that he doesn't end up pushing. So, there will probably be people who'd oppose killing him based on the form of his posts rather than the content. kitaman27 is the scum mastermind who has been manipulating town from behind the scenes. kitaman27 is the lynch for today. Vote: kitaman27 | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 26 2013 01:41 kitaman27 wrote: Notice how he isn't voting GreYMisT after explaining why GreYMisT is scum. He is voting GreYMisT because "zarepath will quickly expose himself if he is indeed scum". This reason for voting GreYMisT has nothing to actually do with GreYMisT. A misinterpretation. That line merely served to explain my preference of GreYMisT over zarepath, not my explanation of lynching GreYMisT. On March 26 2013 01:41 kitaman27 wrote: Now lets take a look at his day three vote. He references a single post by BH and throws down his vote. Wiggles was probably the single most talked about player this game and this is actually the first time cosmic brings his name up. Again, he doesn't actually bring any evidence to the table, he simply jumps on board with the cases that others have presented. Again another misinterpretation. Wade Fell / VisceraEyes were the most talked about players and it is kitaman27 who only had a passing comment upon these two players. kitaman27 acts as if everyone needs to "bring something to the plate" when it was quite obvious why people were voting Mr. Wiggles (lurking & trying to find blame for the Ace mislynch). There's nothing "new" to bring. On March 26 2013 01:41 kitaman27 wrote: Now onto the important part, his day two push on VE. This is a classic example of the chainsaw defense and I expect it to get a lot of discussion during post game. For those unfamiliar with the chainsaw defense, its a common mafia tactic where you defend your scum buddy by attacking their attacker. cosmic's case against VE: + Show Spoiler + On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: I don't understand why we are scrutinizing Wade Fell and not even glancing over at VisceraEyes. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: ]There should be absolutely no issue with Wade Fell defending whom he thinks is a town read, unless VisceraEyes suspects that both goodkarma and Wade Fell are scum, and that Wade Fell is defending goodkarma using fabricated evidence. Nothing in VisceraEyes' case indicates that he believes this, so there is no town alibi for saying this. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: You don't say that someone makes an excellent point, and then totally ignore it when evaluating their play. But that is what VisceraEyes tries to do. He sweeps away something that he himself called "an excellent point" and misconstrues Wade Fell as wasting all his time D1 defending goodkarma, which isn't even scum indicative as his posting shows. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: Therefore, the magnitude of VisceraEyes' misinterpretation is greater for he is a hypocrite in saying that Wade Fell did nothing, when he himself asserts that Wade Fell made an excellent point. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: Again, more misinformation. Here VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell's usage of the mason role is indicative of him being scum. He asserts that the mason role should be used to determine alignment first and foremost. Well that's blatantly wrong. There is nothing wrong, and in fact there is something very valuable with masoning a town read in order to bounce around thoughts and ideas. Wade Fell himself explains his mason choice: On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: How is that not a sensible response? It helps Wade Fell solidify his read on goodkarma, and also helps direct goodkarma's scumhunting as Wade Fell acted as his coach. There is very good townie motivations to mason a town read. However VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell used his role poorly and therefore must be scum. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: Ok. VisceraEyes' hypothesis is that Wade Fell is a scum mason trying to manipulate townies. On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote: What VisceraEyes is doing is calling both goodkarma and Wade Fell scum, and using "town goodkarma" as evidence of Wade Fell scum. Only scum do this. This entire attack of VE is essentially a defense of BH, explaining that VE is mafia because he is misrepresenting the posts of a town. His attacks on VE are based on BH being town, but it's as if he has already made up his mind about this. He fails to strongly consider that BH could be mafia and this case is too confident to be pushed by a town player. Again, another misinterpretation. All kitaman27 is doing here is saying that I'm scum because I was wrong about Wade Fell. The last line is garbage because no one looks at two players screaming at each other and thinks "oh I should strongly consider both should be scum". The last point is also garbage - what, townies don't make confident cases? What is "too confident"? It's just wordplay here. On March 26 2013 01:41 kitaman27 wrote: Now I want to make the single most important part of my case. *IMPORTANT* VisceraEyes claims vet at the beginning of day two on page 54. cosmic does not address the vet claim until the very end of the cycle on page 122. From a town mindset, the single strongest reason for VE not to be mafia is the fact that there was 1 kp on night one, VE claimed the hit, and VE claimed veteran. If I'm going to push VE, I'm most certainly going to accuse VE of lying about the hit and explaining what happened to the missing mafia kp. Instead, he selectively ignores it. This is proof that cosmic was presenting a biased case against VE. He didn't care about VE's alignment, he only cared about the parts of the case he could use to prove that VE was scum. The simplest explanation to this whole ordeal is most certainly not that VE is scum. That would mean that the mafia had withheld their kp or double stacked their shots, VE would fake-claim a hit, and VE would fake-claim a vet. Going into day two, VE was not under so much claim that he required such a drastic move. At the end of day two, cosmic finally concedes that it is more likely that VisceraEyes is playing funky than it is for scum to sacrifice one of their KP to fakeclaim vet. Yet, at the end of day two, cosmic is still voting VE in a lynch that was decided by one vote. So why did this reasoning apply when VE was about to get lynched, but not apply moments later? Because it fitted his agenda. If he wanted to get GoodKarma lynched, he would need a abandon his views on VE. This is a closed setup game with unconventional roles (the Nightmare). kitaman27 quotes one of my posts but cuts off my explanation. On March 22 2013 06:57 cosmicomics wrote: Depends on the night results. His behavior and actions aside, VisceraEyes' vet claim is very strong indicator that he isn't scum if it is true. The key phrase is "if it is true". Because this game has a closed setup, we do not know the nature of scum KP. There is no reason to suppose that it should go by standard precedent (in which I suspect 3 initial KP for scum), and with the flip of a role like Nightmare, I don't find it a stretch to think scum were compensated with other forms of KP. Therefore if the night actions suggest that VisceraEyes' claim is indeed valid, then I swallow my pride because it is more likely that VisceraEyes is playing funky than it is for scum to sacrifice one of their KP to fakeclaim vet, and we get down to lynching goodkarma and unfolding things from there. If not, it's tunnel city because there is nothing aside from his claim that I see as reasonable body of evidence that he is town. There is nothing from my role PM or the setup that gives me insight to how scum KP works. In a closed setup it is dangerous to make normal game assumptions so I take everything with a grain of salt. I find that even 2 initial KP is strange (again, in the post but edited out by kitaman27). Objectively looking at his playstyle alone I found him scum, and because the time of the post comes after the lynch, there is time to reevaluate. Since I was going to get information from N2 actions, of course there is time for reconsideration, but I don't bank on N2 actions to dictate my D2 play. That's foolishness. Furthermore, kitaman27 exposes himself as a hypocrite. In his defense of VisceraEyes, he says himself that the vet shot is a non factor. On March 20 2013 09:09 kitaman27 wrote: I had a town read on VE prior to the claimed hit, due to the interest he seemed to put into the game on day one and I see little reason why claiming a hit should change things. There shouldn't be two votes on him and discussing him today is wasting time that could be diverted to other individuals. kitaman27 is a hypocrite. He accuses me of failing to do something that all townies do when he himself did just the same thing. That is indicative of a mafia inconsistency, because they have to lie and act deceitfully to get mislynches. Let me repeat that. The single most important part of his case is something that he himself didn't believe in. On March 26 2013 01:41 kitaman27 wrote: Finally, take a look at how cosmic responded to my views of suspicion on him. At no point in the game had he mentioned suspicion of myself. Not once. Now an hour after I mention my intentions to get him lynched, he suddenly had a revelation that pointed to me being scum. He knows the only way to defend himself is to attack me and responds with a textbook omgus. It is true that no point in the game prior I mentioned suspicion. But neither most players. I say in the quote he posts that I was reviewing things. kitaman27 is trying to blame me for not noticing earlier. Which is again garbage. "Oh you didn't find me D1 so you are scum!". When does something like this ever make sense? kitaman27 is desperately trying hard to pull of a mislynch and is coming up with garbage excuses and hypocritical points. He is scum and should hang today. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
in the hypocrisy quote, "I see little reason" should also be bolded. He sees little reason why a claimed hit changes anything, i.e. all he is using is behavioral analysis, not the vet claim, which is what he accuses me of failing to do. "single most important part". Hypocrite. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
I've already done so for you, and you are quite a reasonable mafia head given that you are still alive during D4. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
On March 26 2013 04:44 zarepath wrote: I'd like kita and CC's thoughts on layabout and WoS and why they think their scum read is scummier. WoS I already explained. layabout was voting Wade Fell before the 3rd party stuff. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
Yes, it is WIFOM, but only to a certain degree. As scum you shoot people who are on the right track, or shoot people who are strong town players. Strong town players who are still alive in the late game all deserve a harder look because it means that they are so, so off track that scum aren't threatened at all by them, scum are keeping them alive for a mislynch, or they are scum. Could be the first, really doubt it's the second, probably the third. | ||
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cosmicomics
81 Posts
If you are one of the several remaining town players, you may have felt helpless, clueless, and unable to piece together the wrecked shambles of this eclectic mob. All were drawn for various reasons. Some for base desires such as avarice. Some for the unquenchable thirst of curiosity. And some, of course, for the simple pleasure of imposing their will upon others, whether through subtle machinations or brute disparagement. For them, there is no greater delight than to crush. To deceive. To destroy. They had banded together from the start, and have ruthlessly worked into leading people astray into a whirlwind of accusation and doubt, fear and uncertainty. Not even their numbers are known, let alone their identities. Many fumble and grasp at straws of hope, only to be haunted by memories of past failure. Who is it? Who could it be? It is to you fair folk today that I unveil my true identity. Yes, indeed, I am none other than the Mirror himself. I have been watching from the very start, watching at what childish games the world of men indulged themselves in. Watching in amusement, wondrous of how the days may plan out, bemused at the antics of mortals. I have been observing from aeons past and will continue into aeons hither, for this is certainly not the first group to be invited to such charades. And yet, for an inexplicable reason, this group was more than just another ticking time bomb, a rabid mob, frenzied to devour themselves alive. And who could have foreseen that I, the immutable one, could be moved by but just one fair lady ... You mortals have rumors amongst yourselves of a great beauty in ages past, one whose face launched a thousand ships. Ha! I have seen her myself and she is but a shadow, a mere backdrop which only serves to contrast against the radiance of her ... But how could it ever be ... for I have been trapped within the confines of this glass visage, ruler and king supreme in my world, nothing more than an trinket in hers. How! I say, how could I, who could only reflect, grab the attention of her?! Pathetically worse than insipid paint on a wall! At least you can look at a wall!!! How can one look at a mirror without looking into it ... It was too late. I was already entranced. I had made up my resolve. She must be mine, and I alone would be hers for eternity. That fair lady, that fair layabout. Others would surely jest and mock, but I would welcome all the jeers and taunts and derision for the opinion of the world was never of interest and never of meaning. Call me vanity incarnate, for I will but hold that sobriquet in utmost honor, for the privilege of reflecting her glory. And so I did just that. I drew her unwittingly, and before she knew, she was mine. Her physical body still tied to the world, but her mind, soul and heart were mine as no doubt many of you have begun to notice that her attentions and focuses were elsewhere and not of this world. Indeed, for they were upon me. And what literary irony is this! Star crossed lovers pitted against the world to fend for themselves! Not a drop of pity, not a hint of remorse, voices clamoring in unison for the breaking of this "ungodly yoke". Forsooth, I pray thee dear townspeople, have mercy upon us! Have mercy, for we cannot live without each other. We have no interests in the prize money, we have no interests in holding power or maintaining our rights to vote. Have it all! Take it! They are meaningless to us. Just let us be, just let us be ... for so entwined in each other, we can not bear the thought of living alone, for death is more welcome than loneliness. Come, my darling, let us drink deep of each others gaze! + Show Spoiler + Ok so all creepyness aside, I'm the Mirror and layabout is my star crossed lover. I'm almost positive that he is town. I picked him because he seemed like he was a low focus player who can survive mislynches / shots till LYLO with me. That's my, and now layabout's wincon. We just have to make it till LYLO. If one of us dies, the other dies too. We get a 1KP bullet proof vest a night, but I have to choose whether it is on me or layabout, and once it absorbs a hit it's gone. We still have it. VisceraEyes was for the lulz. If you can't tell I really like writing fluff, even though I'm probably terrible at it. This cycle I anonymously masoned kitamin (<3 geript's typo) to get a better read on him. Specifically I pretended I was 3rd party who could co-operate with scum team to see if he would bite. Upon review I have no clue if it is indicative of either way. Edited out timestamps for legibility. + Show Spoiler + The Mirror test The Mirror Hey, how are you doing? Let's cut the flavour and get right down. If you could DT someone tonight who would you choose? Kita Aww VE gets flavor and I don't?  Probably cosmicomics. I'm pretty confident that he is scum after rereading the thread last night. It looks like he went straight omgus mode, so I might have struck a nerve. Glurio also looks pretty bad for the reasoning I stated earlier. How about you? Kita Also, what do you think about cosmic and glurio based on my cases I've outlined? Kita Is there a good time that you would be around so we can chat? I'd be much more comfortable discussing things with you in real-time. Kita Also, is it a safe assumption to make that I'm still town and haven't been recruited? Furthermore, do you have the ability to recruit at all or were you lying to VE? The Mirror Umm yea ... so do you want to cooperate? I can swing this game either way. Kita What does cooperating entail and what evidence can you give me that you have town's best interest in mind? The Mirror ahahaha ok, I'll talk to you later when maybe you'll take me more seriously Kita Cute. What time works for you? Kita I'm starting to get the impression that you don't want to chat with me The Mirror Well ... I'm trying to figure out something pretty important on my end ... and it's not resolving as quickly as I want it too. Could I have your quick gut read on DarthPunk? Kita What might that be? Maybe I can help! It could be the start of our friendship! We should totally chat stuff 1:1 when we're both around. When are you available? Kita As for DarthPunk, its quite possible that he's the mirror jerk who refuses to talk to me.  Kita Do you have any recruits currently? Does your win condition allow you to win with town? So the majority of today's votes are between a 3rd party and a town. That means mafia are most likely playing it complacent and laying low, because there isn't really a need to do anything. Basically a repeat of the Mr. Wiggles lynch. I'm not too sure if kitaman is scum or not, given that I haven't been able to invest the utmost time, but my thoughts are that there are definitely scum hiding amongst the lurkeresque players. Namely DarthPunk On March 27 2013 08:23 DarthPunk wrote: Just caught up with the thread. I was super busy catching up on my reading for UNI. The night kills were really weird. I have no idea why an absent VE and Coag were lynched ahead of Kitaman or WoS. I am half tempted to call the both of them scum for just being alive at this point. But the fact of the matter is that WoS claim was sooooo messy that it is probably townie. And I have had a town read on Kita for a substantial majority of the game. So I am going to trust those reads for better or worse I am afraid. I really don't like the wagon on CC as it reeks of an easy wagon on lynch bait. the contradiction of Layabout unearthed by kita a page back is something that feels to me like a genuine slip/expression that is indicative of a scum thought process. I am going with that, as I am having a heap of problems forming a read at all and it seems like the best thing to go on. I will be checking the thread regularly until lynch. If anyone wants to talk or requests a filter of someone and my thoughts etc. Let me know. This is a scum claim right here. Calls the wagon on me as easy wagon on lynch bait, when it is his primary town read that is spearheading this lynch, and his primary town read's evidence that leads him to vote his alternative choice layabout. This is called scum trying to look good after a mislynch. More focus in being on "the right wagon" rather than getting scum lynched. Accentuating his uncertainty and his confusion (cf. Ver's Mafia Analysis). He is playing a very responsive playstyle "if you want something ask me, otherwise I won't say anything". If anything at this kind of critical juncture, town players would be working hard to get their thoughts out in discussion. DarthPunk is just watching things happen and is only concerned with maintaining his self image. Not at all in finding scum. Best bet in hitting scum today. Unvote: kitaman27 Vote: DarthPunk Yea ... so this is it. If you guys don't believe my claim, then by all means you should lynch me. But there is ample evidence in my interactions with layabout, as well as his 3rd party mason knowledge that zarepath brought up to show that the mason link is true. It is probably unlikely that scum would have 2 masons, and that I would mason VisceraEyes after he outed Wade Fell, because people love "balance" and would use the balance argument to lynch into one of us. You can lynch me because I could be 3rd party lying about my win con, but there hasn't been any additional SK KP of any sort, nor have we acted in a way that was intentionally detrimental to town (being wrong about scum reads is not intentional). <3 layabout. Sorry I dragged you into this mess, I didn't think it would end up like this. | ||
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cosmicomics
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On March 27 2013 11:45 DarthPunk wrote: ##Unvote Behold, the fiend emerges out of his hidey-hole! Away from my fair lady you foul beast! | ||
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On March 27 2013 11:51 geript wrote: Oh wtf. First VE now this shit... I apologize dear friend for undue grief. But my words are true. For our love spans cycles many, from the very dawns of day 1. On March 18 2013 07:42 layabout wrote: Hey cosmic, what are your thoughts about everything else? On March 20 2013 01:16 layabout wrote: cosmic get your butt in here now and tell me what you think about BH. | ||
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On March 27 2013 12:28 TestSubject893 wrote: Well this throws a wrench in things. I was all ready to come back and stack on cosmic since no one believes me that WoS is obviously scum.... I don't see any reason not to believe him since layabout isn't objecting. I guess its possible that they're both scum. Its also possible that they actually are gonna get some KP later and are just lying. Hmmm.... gotta think about this. True, it is possible that I am lying and perhaps we will get some KP later. But it is a fact that mafia have KP now, and they have and will continue to use it unabashedly against town. That won't change. | ||
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On March 27 2013 12:45 DarthPunk wrote: At the moment I am looking at a kita lynch as kita has only made very constructed and crafted posts. Has not posted a lot but enough to come off as townie. Has flown under the radar and pushed cases on a townie/3rd party every time. Also Kita has posted good and reasonable cases. And a lot of them. So it doesn;t make any snese for kita to be alive and coag and VE to die last night. So yeah. At the moment I am looking at a kita lynch. The knave panics! | ||
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On March 27 2013 12:54 DarthPunk wrote: LOL I can't tell if you or I are going to look worse when I flip town. Haha, me neither, since you know, dead people tend to look bad when they flip town ... lol you serious? | ||
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cosmicomics
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On March 27 2013 12:58 RyuSuzaku wrote: Are you actually town, or are you with this mirror guy? Or maybe I was right and you are scum? This game is turning out to be really stupid. But even if you are just dumb town it should still be really obvious to you that we can't win without killing cosmic. Reminds me of that game BH claimed SK as town because he thought he could manipulate town into letting him live on the condition that he "lent" them his gun. IIRC the targets he offered to kill were all townies. "even if you are just dumb town, it should still be really obvious to you that town can't win without killing scum" Cause, you know, removing 2 non-mafia votes is also key in lynching scum in the future. On March 24 2013 07:38 RyuSuzaku wrote: After rereading my strongest scum read is probably DarthPunk. Clearly some mismatching motives / agenda here. | ||
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cosmicomics
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The only people to gain from lynching 3rd party is scum, because it removes 2 non-mafia controlled votes, they avoid another lynch and with 2KP they might even just cliche the game right there. Doesn't make sense for town to lynch 3rd party right now. Balance of powers. Unvote: DarthPunk Vote: kitaman27 | ||
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He isn't even trying to figure it out, just trying to get me lynched. | ||
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On March 27 2013 13:03 kitaman27 wrote: cosmic clearly doesn't win by surviving with town. This is all nonsense. Remember on day two how he manipulated VE into thinking he was being recruited? And then he proceed to push for his lynch? He made no effort in clearing the suspicions that VE was third party. He pushed a mislynch for the "lulz". This isn't play indicative of a player that wins with town. A survivor with a bulletproof vest uses his mason ability to scum hunt and then use the town cred to never be lynched. They don't push mislynches for their own amusement. I tried to chat with him 1:1 in real time to get a read on him, but he dodged me at everyone opportunity. He claims to have been trying to figure out my alignment, yet every opportunity I requested to chat, he brushed off. After writing a case against me which proved how sure he was that I am scum, now that people agree I am town, he backtracks and jumps on another player with DarthPunk. He claims to have reread the thread to discover that I was mafia earlier, now he admits he hasn't been reading the thread very closely at all. cosmic and layabout were almost certainly going to be lynched the next two cycles. I pegged them as scum, they couldn't misdirect the lynch and this is their last ditch effort to swing things. Notice how they waited until only a few hours left in the cycle to pull this stunt. They're hoping that we buy into their story and do a last minute panic switch without thinking things through. It's also possible that this ploy would allow their kp to remain at two for another night. cosmic needs to be lynched this cycle. On March 27 2013 13:16 kitaman27 wrote: Are you kidding me? There were 5 votes on cosmic and 3 votes on layabout before this claim. One of them was most certainly going to get lynched this cycle. There is only a couple hours in the cycle remaining. Do you expect that we were going to suddenly decide to all swap to WoS or something? They have every reason to fake claim for survival right now. The moment cosmic flipped scum, everyone was going to lynch layabout the next cycle. This is their only chance. You say that cosmic wants to work with town, but ignore the fact that he trolled VE and tried to push his mislynch? Bold is kitaman trying to lynch me for being 3rd party. Red is kitaman trying to lynch me for being scum. Nowhere does kitaman actually try to evaluate what I actually am or the repercussions that lynching me will bring. | ||
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"He is scum these actions show scum agenda he is scum" Implicit in what kitaman said in the bold is "He might be 3rd party but definitely isn't town-aligned 3rd party". Explicit in what kitman said in the bold is stuff about survivors. You don't hash out explanations to rule out the possibility of town aligned 3rd party when arguing that someone is scum. Clearly kitaman is panicking and trying to do his best to get me lynched instead of acting like everyone else, who is taking a step back and carefully re-evaluating. | ||
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On March 30 2013 18:02 RyuSuzaku wrote: that's why I smurfed (not enough time to keep up my posting standard). if I was on my normal acc I would've definitely played a different game. Well, if I was forced to not smurf I probably wouldn't have played, but w/e. + Show Spoiler + also note that I mean I felt like I could've posted satisfactorily, but it would have been less than normal, i.e. I would take a lot of flak from people for not posting enough to my meta Same exact reason I smurfed. Like, I want to play mafia, but I'll have an incredibly tough time playing since I don't have the same type of time available. Can someone explain the layabout's mirror restriction? I assumed if I ever recruited mafia, their win con would change and they would just work to bus all the members, as it is the fastest, easiest way to victory. Layabout, what did your conversion PM say? | ||
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On March 31 2013 09:16 Blazinghand wrote: From what I can tell Layabout became completely 3p-aligned. He just got totally suckered when Kita lied and said he too was converted. Why didn't he just proceed to bus every member and be heralded as best town player of all time? e: as soon as day 2? | ||
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Here is what it actually was: a 3rd party that could recruit people by masoning them for a certain period of time (I think it is 1 full cycle, or 1 day + 1 night), either in name or anonymously. The masonee are told that they may look away from the Mirror at any time. 2 recruit maximum. From a town perspective, if you think that the recruiter could not be rejected, then yes lynching cosmic as soon as you found out was the correct decision. The true win condition is hidden. You take out the 3rd party regardless of what he says. But the question would then become why did VE out the 3rd party as 3rd party? What motivation is there? I don't understand what happened with that. Doesn't make sense. If you think VE would play strange enough to do that, I guess lynching him makes sense. VE said he could reject the offer. So if you believe that, then 3rd party is totally benign to both parties (never saw any KP that indicated anything). At the endgame juncture, if 3rd party is offering to help, then I don't see why town shouldn't go after someone else. Scum have KP. Fact. 3rd party may or may not have KP. Town needs to eliminate scum to win. Fact. Town may need to eliminate 3rd party. Scum KP reduces with numbers. Maybe. Seems like you should go after scum. However, given that town was so lost almost the whole game, wouldn't have mattered if the host announced my role in detail. I wrote my kita case long before claiming, but didn't have any clout to push it (plus I don't get teammates to back me up ). No scum member was close to being caught and any actual efforts were totally shut down by scum. Good job by them. Doesn't matter if I (and by extension town players) can figure out who scum is if I can't get them lynched / killed. Mafia is a collective game and town need to work on 1) getting the right reads & 2) getting the right reads lynched / killed. In closing, I don't think this game is [N], but I don't know much about the recruiter role so I can't really say much. I didn't bother trying to mason anyone 3rd cycle because I planned on laying low until endgame. Probably would have worked much better if scum didn't make it their specific goal to get me lynched. | ||
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I'm not saying that posting often and spamming away posts is an illegitimate strategy, but I share that desire to play a game with less clutter and spam and more focus on the deception / misinterpretations / lying etc. I was mulling over in my head maybe a special setup that either restricted number of posts or allowed town to punish it or something ... especially for me who smurfed into the game to avoid potential meta abuse, would still like to play mafia but find 3~4 hours per day a bit of a tall order, as so much of it is invested in just catching up in thread (not analyzing, just reading). | ||
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On March 31 2013 12:31 ThePeashooter wrote: CC just needed to survive and his win was not mutually exclusive and could be achieved alongside the town/mafia. Furthermore, since LayAbout could be recruited and then turned back into scum if CC died he has incentive to not work to his "new" win condition. His win condition wasn't permanent and if scum was winning he just needed to kill CC and he would go back to his winning team. I would say he didn't have so much a new win condition as he did a temporary change in condition that gave him the option to switch if he wanted to. Yea that threw me off. I assumed his win con was fixed and that he would play to it, and that he was also under the impression that if I died then he too would die. Therefore he would even be willing to die (and get mislynched) before me if needed to. However I don't know what he was told, you would have to ask him. | ||
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On March 31 2013 12:37 Blazinghand wrote: I remember there was once an 80-person game (that I was only in briefly before it fell apart) and there were several roles called "lurker vigis" which could fire a bullet to shoot a lurker. It worked pretty poorly, but it was a fine idea. I don't think posting restrictions are the best of ideas, just because it changes the way the game works. That being said, I think the real way to stop spam is the same as the real way to stop lurking: consider it a scumtell and lynch people who do it. Obviously it's not possible for a single person to enforce this, but if enough people believe it, it will become true. And FWIW a certain level of spam probably IS a scumtell. It is anti-town to get into long arguments with everyone for no reason and derail all the useful lynches. Calling players out for this and threatening to lynch them will 1) discourage scum from doing it and 2) discourage town from doing it which could be good. That is very difficult, as some players just have a natural tendency to post often. E.g. marv posted many one liners as town as FiveTouch if I recall. I didn't read the game that closely but I assume he played a large part in the rompstomp. Something like posting often ... isn't objectively policy enforceable. You would need to force many players to change up their playstyle. I might try to make an invite normal mini with more consolidate-y post type players to see how that goes first. That way, people can still play normally within regular mafia rules, and we can see the type of gameplay that results. | ||
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On March 31 2013 12:38 ThePeashooter wrote: Cosmic, did you ever know the whole scum team? Like could LayAbout tell you who his whole scum team was? The mason link was severed after his conversion. I didn't expect him to be converted so early either, and was hoping to write some sort of will to dictate how he should play. That said I think I chalked up his general waffling as a town who was unsure of how to play to his new win con. I don't think he posted anything useful in thread ... yea ... I figured out kita just by post analysis. I felt his cases were pretty weak and his glurio read awful. I was looking into Ryu because Keir (1st NK) pointed out something about him. When someone like Keir dies instead of Wiggles / Ace / whatever "vet", I'm inclined to look carefully (not to say Keir is a poor player, I just assume vets get shot first unless there is good reason). The post greymist flip blame really stuck out. Doesn't matter if objectively it was true, the attitude was all wrong. Was looking at Kenpachi and DarthPunk due to process of elimination (town reads). When DP realized that kita and Ryu were scum, I began to consider layabout, but I died soon after so I stopped following the game. | ||
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cosmicomics
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I think kitaman was very lurky early game, despite having "good looking posts". I think there are players (I try to emulate this guy) who can produce really good content, but have lower post counts. On the flip side, there are strong town players who are lurky (Foolishness) and "spammy" (marvellosity). | ||
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On March 31 2013 13:08 RyuSuzaku wrote: the policy vig idea is pretty stupid, just give players a regular vig. It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time. Eh, depends on do you want to win the game vs. do you want to improve overall play of TL Mafia (and have less chance winning that specific game)? Because I'd probably keep the vig for a strong scum read (for the sake of winning), rather than shooting into lurkers / players with playstyles I don't like. | ||
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