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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 16 2013 22:24 sandroba wrote: Geript and sciberbia are both town. BH is trying to emulate his previous behavior. VE is silly. Peashooter I'm leaning town due to the no name claiming warning, other than that the rest of the speculation is pointless at this stage. He seems to be a reasonable fella though, I'm curious about who he is. Keep up the good work gents. On March 16 2013 22:30 sandroba wrote: Update: Greymist is suspicious. On March 16 2013 22:40 GreYMisT wrote: Do you disagree with the point that I made? On March 16 2013 22:45 sandroba wrote: Don't care about your "points", and neither do you. You seem mafia to me. Last sentence gave you away. I find this interaction forced-there seems to be something off about how sandroba and greymist confront each other here. I wouldn't even call it confronting, really. I dislike sandroba more for the lack of reasoning, but I think it could be possible they are both mafia. ##vote sandroba | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
Is sandroba's accusation not worthy of a response? Greymist was clearly around after, since he corrected the host just a while ago. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 17 2013 04:40 layabout wrote: Ryu there isn't much to respond to if your greymist. Are you suggesting sandroba is not a good town player and so his accusation should not be treated seriously? I don't understand this line of thought. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 17 2013 05:31 goodkarma wrote: Regarding Grey: I asked about grey because I could find very little about his meta. I know he hosts many games, but he doesn't seem to have played in many. Best I can tell so far, he seems very detached from this game, posting often, but saying very little... Having a look at his meta would really help, if anyone happens to know a game he has actually played in (and not hosted) I would love to look at it. @Mr. Wiggles: Sowy, but I'm not giving you any scumreads until I'm ready to. You claim I haven't been scumhunting, but if you were to look at my posting so far I have: 1) Worked towards establishing a pro-town atmosphere, a reasonable early goal 2) Been pushing others for reads to get a better understanding of their motives and thought process, which is very important to getting scumreads As far as cases go, which aren't the only component of scumhunting: As I said, when I'm ready. And I promise you it will be long before the end of the day. But what I'd recommend you to do right now is to focus some of your energies on getting others to participate (not everyone has even posted yet!), and pursue some of your other scumreads. Because tunneling one read, and going into lurker mode thereafter is in itself pretty scummy... @Ryu: Would you mind going a little more in depth on this case for me? From what I've seen in his past games, sandroba has been pretty lazy as both town and scum. The difference being the quality of his reads. From what I've seen so far, I'd say his assessments have been reasonable. What about his reads do you disagree with, or is this really just about his lazy posting style? it's mostly the interaction between greymist and sandroba. It felt forced-I am not entirely sure which player (or if both) are causing that feeling, or why. I want to hear sandroba and greymist explain themselves. Clearly greymist is around, but sandroba might not be. Greymist doesn't seem to care what sandroba thinks. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
sandroba hasn't responded to my vote nor has he done anything since his initial comments. I think he has a very good likelihood of being scum because of this. I'd expect him to at least do something in the meantime, but he's simply lurking. While greymist is still a bit suspicious, he at the very least seems to have put in some effort toward finding scum. His target is not very great IMO, but at the very least he is not still lurking. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
There are several major reasons; hopefully my quoting will help here. 1. Greymist excuses his lurking by saying that he was "setting a trap." I seriously doubt there was any sort of trap or intention behind the lurking, seeing as his entry post into the thread mentioned how busy he was. 2. When he was around, greymist didn't do anything other than respond to the host. Surely as a townie, if you know you are going to only be active for certain time periods, you will put effort into pushing your reads, or at least trying to make them. Lurking away your active periods sounds pretty antitown. I know at least for me personally, I do my best to read and post in order to solidify my reads during my active periods. 3. Greymist's posts come off as opportunistic. He accuses goodkarma of attacking "easy targets", yet he himself is guilty of attacking GK, someone I would classify as an easy target. GK also chose DarthPunk and sandroba as two of his four targets, both of which I would firmly classify as "not easy to lynch." GK gave fairly decent reasons for both, and those reasons are understandable from a GK-town perspective. For one, he acknowledges the differences in DP's play between this game and others in which he has played; this type of observation is characteristically rare for mafia players. The fact that greymist is not able to see these reasons is indicative of him being scum. 4. Greymist seems to be overly aware both of his own image and what the town in general thinks. There are a lot of questions to the effect of "what do people think of ____?" and also moments where he calls out players (knowingly) for things he himself is doing. To this end, I give you the following: On March 17 2013 14:38 GreYMisT wrote: Perfect, I was waiting for this! Does anyone else but me find this post odd? let me tell you why you should. First off. I have contributed about 0 things this game. Zilch. Nada. So much so that it honestly should be a null/leaning scum tell on me. Especially considering I have not been around for the last few hours or so. Its not like im spamming or trolling, I have been a non presence. Now normally this would be an OK pressure vote, if thats what this was. HOWEVER, he says that I am his number 1 scumread (he's willing to put a vote on me), saying that I have had ample opportunity to contribute, and am MORE than a lurker. What makes this an accusation post rather than just a defense post by me, however, is when we look at the rest of his reads. Instead of just pushing me and trying to convince town to get behind my lynch (something you can see every other town player doing, after all the goal of this game is to reach a majority on players), he goes on to make sure the town knows he MIGHT be swapping to another person, thereby setting himself up for a future vote swap. This is not only to mention the content of his reads here. Notice that he really doesn't have anything to say, and picks on the easy targets. More notably, is that he picks on targets with the same sins as me this game, yet not mentioning why he is voting me over them. I can tell you why, Its because my lack of thread presence, to a scum player, would basically have them salivating for a day 1 miss lynch. I am an easy, low risk lynch with almost no thread presence to back myself up. I find this post suspicious because it is a cookie cutter, "here are a few reads" post that has no interaction with other players, no real pushing, no new information, and in my eyes makes more sense from a scum perspective than a town one. I will be voting goodkarma until I can be convinced otherwise. Note that his response to GK is nothing more than OMGUS. I seriously doubt greymist was setting a trap, given that he himself said how busy he was. He also does exactly the same thing he accuses GK of doing. GK, to me, simply seemed to be stating his reads and his rationale. His rationale appears to be backed up by actual effort-from my independent efforts, I can confirm that much of what he wrote about these players' metas is, on the whole, true. On the other hand, greymist has put no such effort into verifying GK's assertions, nor does he do anything but dismiss GK's reads. In addition, he calls out GK for listing reads so he can allegedly later swap them, yet he basically does the same here: On March 18 2013 02:28 GreYMisT wrote: I'm still voting for goodkarma for the moment, but what do people think of WaveofShadow? I just went through his posts and noticed that literally the only thing he has done this game is discuss meta, and not in the good way. To me it seems as though he is yet another player promising an opinion and saying he will look into things, but preparing excuses for a later sheep. I'd like to see a vote from him soon. and here: On March 18 2013 02:42 GreYMisT wrote: layabout I did just look at DP's filter again, and noticied that he commented on the same post that I did of goodkarma's. Something strikes me as odd about that post, with him seemingly calling him out on it, but then giving a fairly weak reason why he doesnt want gk lynched. I am wary of such stances. and here: On March 18 2013 03:01 GreYMisT wrote: Kita I think its possible that vivax slipped up. I can definitely see that scenario happening in this game. I am not sure I am confident enough in the risk of lynching him based off only that though. Let me look over him for anything else. every time greymist posts a read, it's with very minimal effort-not something I would expect a townie to put forth. In addition, his posts are very opportunistic. He only does things under pressure, whether it be direct or indirect. He only attacked GK under the obvious pressure of a vote. Sandro had already claimed suspicion of greymist, but greymist brushed it off-it was only when others agreed with sandro did greymist take the opportunity to attack GK. When kita requested an opinion of greymist on vivax, he did nothing more than regurgitate kita's suspicions and dig up superficialities in how vivax responded. On March 18 2013 03:17 GreYMisT wrote: Alright kitaman, I'm willing to lynch vivax or gk today. I think vivax might be scum not only because of the slip, but because of his 2 posts where he responds to your pressure. One thing that strikes me is Vivax's explination of being sure.. He says he was "so sure it was yamato" but in his followup post he gives an extremely weak reason of being so certain. Also another small thing in addition to what kita pointed out, is this line "I think it's a stupid reason to lynch me although I would probably think something similar in your position. But if you do it, won't be my fault you lose something valuable." Its subtle, but Vivax is essentially blaming his slip on us, even though he says that he would think the same thing in our position. He says that it wouldnt be his fault, when it very clearly would be. I'm not going to mention why I find greymist to be incredibly suspicious after this last post, since I expect anyone reading thoroughly to be able to discern why. ##vote greymist | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 18 2013 04:31 VisceraEyes wrote: I filtered you and decided I didn't want to lynch you. So I filtered someone else that layabout suggested. I don't see what the problem is. Could you maybe address my case instead of give bullshit association reasoning for not voting for DP? you should read my recently posted case on greymist. I'm probably not going to be back until maybe an hour before deadline, if at all, so I suggest that you all consider voting greymist. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
Obviously I was wrong, but I'm town and I had completely valid reasons for attacking GM. On March 19 2013 03:19 DoYouHas wrote: Grrr, that was a painful role to lose. - I am still confident in my zarepath read from day 1, but that has been rehashed enough already, and it seems fruitless to pursue that further until there is more content or until we get to day2. - WOS hadn't really caught my eye as particularly suspicious until he started responding to post-flip pressure. I found that particularly scummy (something I will get into in my next post). - Ryu deserves a good bit of consideration. Remember when BH was attacking TPS for his tunnel on Coag, an unproductive target, and thought that he was using that tunnel to avoid other topics/being constructive? Well that is exactly what Ryu did day1, and it is a scummy trait. He pointed out 'fishy-ness' in the interaction between Sandro and GreY, speculated that they might both be scum, and never moved on from there. He pushed Sandro until Sandro's afk was explained, then he made a case on GreY. A case that, while described by a few people as 'good', contained 2 blatant misrepresentations+ Show Spoiler [Misrepresentations] + Misrepresentation #1: At no point does GreY refer to his "gotcha" moment on GK as a trap. Someone else described it that way, and it stuck. As someone doing a PBPA on GreY, Ryu should have seen this, but he didn't. Instead he runs with this 'setting a trap' mentality as something scummy GreY did, when GreY never actually showed that behavior. Lazy case making. Misrepresentation #2: Ryu describes GreY's response to GK as "nothing more than OMGUS", which it absolutely wasn't. This is completely false. I did not vocalize any of my other reads because they were not as sure as greymist. The longer I looked at the interaction between greymist and sandroba, the more I became sure that greymist was scum. I chose to ignore sandroba because he was going to be replaced-there's not much reason to attack a person you know will not even be around, and whose scummy traits were probably not motivated by alignment to begin with. My vote was on sandroba for quite a while until the replacement was announced (though it's not in the voting thread because I was not aware of it) Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it was a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!" Given that he was expecting such a reaction, it's only reasonable to assume he was trying to trap a scum. So he "never" showed that behavior, eh? This is not a misrepresentation. This is you looking for something where nothing exists. Misrepresentation #2: Ryu describes GreY's response to GK as "nothing more than OMGUS", which it absolutely wasn't., and at least 1 point which isn't a scumtell at all (#4). And that is it. That is all Ryu has done. He has displayed a scummy level of target focus in a day1 where tons of viable wagons were flying all over the place. [/spoiler]It was nothing more than OMGUS, unless you can find a better reason greymist had for attacking GK. None of his points were substantiated and I showed exactly why I think GK is town. This is convenient ignorance of what I posted. In fact, it's ignorance of almost everything that happened surrounding GK and GM. GM did not attack GK until GK showed suspicion of GM. That's textbook definition of OMGUS. Lastly, how exactly is pushing a case and seeking consolidation on a chaotic day 1 scummy? If that's your definition of scummy, I fear to see your other reads. Sadly I can't tell whether you are saying these things as a scum trying to push responsibility for a mislynch, or as a townie who is just bad. On March 19 2013 04:41 VisceraEyes wrote: Both of these quotes came from the guy who wrote the "super convincing case" against GreYMisT. I find this to be highly suspicious - at first he thinks they could both be scum, sandroba has done nothing between these posts, and suddenly sandroba is town worthy of a response? ##FoS Ryu I never assumed sandro to be town nor did I ever strongly feel him to be scum. I voted him to begin with to pressure him into explaining his reads. He obviously never did because he was afk the entire time. I ignored him after the replacement was announced. IIRC this was before the replacement was announced. I simply was surprised that a player would ignore sandro's accusation, given that he is widely accepted to be a very good town player. I misinterpreted the situation. Why are you cherry picking me? Are you scum? | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote: Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it was a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!" EBWOP: Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it wasn't a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!" | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 19 2013 05:42 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm working with the new information, being GreY's alignment. That lead me to filter the guy ultimately responsible for the GreY wagon, which led me to find posts referring to GreY. I'm not cherrypicking, I just pointed out something suspicious. Why do you say I'm cherrypicking you? Your GreYMisT push is the only significant thing you've done the whole game, why should I not use information from that flip to try and draw conclusions about your alignment? By all means, I think you should use new information. From my perspective, it's suspicious on your part to twist my words. That's what you "found" suspicious. It wasn't even my own words, just your spin on them. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 19 2013 05:51 VisceraEyes wrote: It's not my "spin" it's my "interpretation" that you were assuming he was town based on how you phrased your accusation of GreY. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me but instantly calling it suspicious is a little over the top. I guess I don't understand what is so suspicious of brushing off sandro's accusation of him. It was suspicious enough for you to vote him over, it was given without any kind of supporting reasoning. Why was it suspicious for GreY to brush off his accusation like that? I didn't vote him based on that. I thought it was suspicious because I would have expected a townie to try to explain himself instead of simply lurking away. I'd expect a scum to ignore an accusation from a strong player and simply hope it goes away. I expect townies to react at the very least. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:17 VisceraEyes wrote: Explain himself for what? Sandroba's accusation was "Bullshit you're scum" Like...what were you expecting from him? Could it not be argued that if he HAD come back and explained himself he was needlessly defending himself against weak accusations? Why does it matter? Sandro doesn't often explain his reads more than that on day 1. Also, he wouldn't need to necessarily explain himself directly, he could have actually used the time he had to find scum. But, he didn't. Remember, when he was actually active, all he did was correct the host and lurk. You think that's a pro-town thing to do? And again, I didn't vote him for that alone, it was a little piece of several different things. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 19 2013 06:35 VisceraEyes wrote: But he didn't - he gave his thoughts on players when he was around. :/ It doesn't matter right now. I think you're suspicious because of your backing off of sandroba for no reason. You weren't suspicious of him for lurking, so him replacing shouldn't have changed your read of him from "scummy" to "null". You outlined reasoning for thinking Sandroba was suspicious and now suddenly you're not. You say you "never really felt strongly about sandroba for scum" but your votes and reasoning explicitly state otherwise. You say "sandroba doesn't often explain his reads more than that on day 1" but in the orignal post voting for him you cite "lack of reasoning" as your reason for disliking him more than GreY. I think your actions don't line up with your explanations, and the fact that you lurked all through the wagon building on GreY exacerbates my suspicion. I voted sandro to pressure him, I had no intention of lynching him based on his lack of reasoning. I didn't like his lack of reasoning. After the host said he was going to get replaced, I ignored him because you can't read a player who was not around to begin with. Whatever they do can be explained away by "oh he was busy IRL" I think you're taking my pressure vote a bit too seriously. Also, I didn't lurk through the greymist wagon building. I was at work and I even said that I would not be back. This is just a lie. (also, even if I was around, why would I bother doing anything? My target for lynch got lynched, and it was clear people agreed with me.) | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:04 DoYouHas wrote: + Show Spoiler [Ryu's long post] + On March 19 2013 05:34 RyuSuzaku wrote: well, that sucks. I was pretty convinced GM was scum given how suspicious he was acting. Pretty disappointing play from him, especially given his incredibly strong role. Obviously I was wrong, but I'm town and I had completely valid reasons for attacking GM. 1. This is completely false. I did not vocalize any of my other reads because they were not as sure as greymist. The longer I looked at the interaction between greymist and sandroba, the more I became sure that greymist was scum. I chose to ignore sandroba because he was going to be replaced-there's not much reason to attack a person you know will not even be around, and whose scummy traits were probably not motivated by alignment to begin with. My vote was on sandroba for quite a while until the replacement was announced (though it's not in the voting thread because I was not aware of it) 2. Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it was a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!" Given that he was expecting such a reaction, it's only reasonable to assume he was trying to trap a scum. So he "never" showed that behavior, eh? This is not a misrepresentation. This is you looking for something where nothing exists. 3. It was nothing more than OMGUS, unless you can find a better reason greymist had for attacking GK. None of his points were substantiated and I showed exactly why I think GK is town. This is convenient ignorance of what I posted. In fact, it's ignorance of almost everything that happened surrounding GK and GM. GM did not attack GK until GK showed suspicion of GM. That's textbook definition of OMGUS. 4. Lastly, how exactly is pushing a case and seeking consolidation on a chaotic day 1 scummy? If that's your definition of scummy, I fear to see your other reads. Sadly I can't tell whether you are saying these things as a scum trying to push responsibility for a mislynch, or as a townie who is just bad. I never assumed sandro to be town nor did I ever strongly feel him to be scum. I voted him to begin with to pressure him into explaining his reads. He obviously never did because he was afk the entire time. I ignored him after the replacement was announced. IIRC this was before the replacement was announced. I simply was surprised that a player would ignore sandro's accusation, given that he is widely accepted to be a very good town player. I misinterpreted the situation. Why are you cherry picking me? Are you scum? 1. - I am quite interested in what these other, not vocalized, reads are. Please elaborate. 2-3. - Originally I thought I had caught you here by getting you to state that GreY's attack on GK was both a trap and OMGUS, which wouldn't make any sense. HOWEVER, I decided to look back at your original case again to make sure I got my facts straight and it turns out that I made a mistake in my original assertions against you. And, because of my mistake, it revealed an inconsistency much larger than the simple contradiction I first mentioned. "Secondly, simply because greymist didn't literally call it a trap doesn't mean it wasn't a trap. If you want to argue semantics, by all means, go ahead. Your point is moot, given that greymist himself said the words "Perfect. I was waiting for this!" In Ryu's original case, he says twice that he doesn't believe the 'trap' explanation for GreY's post. He classifies GreY as opportunistic and picking on the easy targets. I was wrong when I said that Ryu had misrepresented GreY by endorsing the trap explanation. Yet Ryu doesn't point out the obvious flaw in how I was representing him, he accepts it and defends it. That is not the action of a tunneling townie who has been challenged on his past case. That is the action of a scum who is reacting to pressure. 4. - I think it is amusing that you convicted GreY on OMGUS, yet you bite back at both me and VE with "maybe you're scum" as soon as we pressure you. it obviously was a trap in retrospect because grey flipped town. I didn't believe it was a trap at the time. How is this contradictory at all? Grey said it was a trap-you claim it wasn't. I disbelieved that it was a trap, that he wanted it to look like one, but that it truly wasn't. He flipped town = he intended it to be a trap. No contradiction here. My statement of confusion over you and VE is me questioning my reads, because both of you are grossly misrepresenting me (you more than VE). I'm not going to post my reads at night, no use. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 19 2013 07:39 DoYouHas wrote: PS: I would still encourage you to share your reads, Ryu, regardless of it being night time. Scum will kill who scum will kill, getting information out so that we can discuss it as early as possible is much more to town advantage than it is to scum's. Now that you have effectively shot holes in my aggression towards you I very much would like to get into your thoughts on people other than GreY. no worries, I will post them right before deadline (assuming I don't fall asleep before then lol) | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
In case I die, please look into VE and TranceStorm in particular. Tentatively glurio may also be a good candidate for lynch. I reread to try and figure out why I misread greymist and what else I invariably got wrong, since I was very confident he was scum and I (foolishly) predicated some of my reads on him tentatively flipping red. I found VE relatively townie, for reasons I don't really remember. However, I think he is a great lynch for tomorrow given how much he has posted, but how little he has actually said. He also was very quick to push blame onto me following the lynch, even going so far as to say that I lurked my way through the wagon building. Firstly, that makes no sense, and secondly, he wasn't around at all either (and if he truly were interested in lynching someone other than grey, because he believed that GK or whoever was more likely to flip scum, perhaps he should have vocalized this before the lynch). I found that the most interesting-prior to lynch, there was a huge amount of time where VE said nothing at all. It was only after lynch that VE came into the thread to push blame onto the originator of the case (me). Aside from VE I think scum are probably lurking. VE's activity is lower than normal too, so it wouldn't surprise me if the whole scum team is lurking. glurio and TranceStorm in particular stand out as suspicious.I think TranceStorm is considerably more likely to flip scum than glurio though-at the very least some of glurio's posts have a hint of an abrasive, town-like attitude. In particular, notice TS's last post in the thread: it's not much more than an excuse for why he was a complete nonfactor all day, followed by a relatively weak suspicion of Wiggles. He also basically abstained, given that his vote was on DYH, someone who was, as far as I can remember, never a serious lynch candidate. Now, had he given off the impression that he wanted to push his read on DYH, I would be okay with him having relatively low activity. However, he did no such thing-most of his posts are low quality and are sympathetic toward a mafia-view of the game (e.g. the stuff he said about d1 and looking for differences in town/mafia play) His comments on lynch candidates are cursory at best: On March 18 2013 00:38 TranceStorm wrote: I have no reservations on a zarepath lynch. I have nothing to contribute on him beyond what others have already said. I think that DoYouHas is a stronger candidate however. This is all pending an explanation of the Vivax 'scumslip' though. and I never got the impression that he was interested in scumhunting. In fact, for most of the time that I was reading the game, I did not even realize that he was playing. Scum love to go unnoticed-then they don't have to deal with the pressure of faking reads. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
Someone give me a brief synopsis of what I missed. I see stuff on the last page about VE being third party. I'll be back to post my thoughts when I'm done reading. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
As for the third party is or is not scum debate, it's just semantics. Our goal is to kill all nontown players. Third party is nontown, and a free lynch on antitown should never be passed up. I'm in agreement with Ace, just kill VE. ##vote VisceraEyes Moving on: Trancestorm is still incredibly scummy. Note that despite saying he would be less busy today, and promising activity, he has been almost completely absent. The absence is not necessarily a problem in itself-it's the fact that his words don't actually align with what he is doing. He doesn't seem to be interested in scumhunting, despite saying that he will have more time to read and participate. He never makes any pushes at all himself despite encouraging another player to "simply out your suspicions". Compare: On March 20 2013 16:09 TranceStorm wrote: The implication you were driving at was that there were several mafia members driving the lynch. There is no need to be so vague in your questions. Just out your suspicions. On March 20 2013 00:22 TranceStorm wrote: @zarepath: in response to your town points (one of your posts is a response to Vivax). First, as to my lynch choice today. I have a choice to make between the case against TPS and against Mr. Wiggles (which I had pointed out first last night). For me, the compelling evidence against TPS seems to be his behavior in his very flimsy vote for GM last night and hasn't paid any lip service to the accusations leveled at him. My case against Wiggles has been responded to somewhat, if unconvincingly. In a decision between two scummy candidates, I have to the most likely one, in my opinion it is TPS. As to your second point, you are overgeneralizing. I was asked specifically for the case of zarepath, which I had read over and agreed with. That doesn't mean that any case that's presented to me will be something I agree with. On March 20 2013 15:11 TranceStorm wrote: The issue I currently have with your defense at the moment WOS is that it depends entirely on the fact that you, as you say, have historically played poorly in these circumstances and are doing so right now as well -> therefore you are not mafia. However, I don't think this forms a satisfactory defense and is far too reliant on 'meta' arguments. Just because you have behaved scummily in past games does not mean that we can give you a free pass when you behave scummily in this game! That's why we have to look at the particular circumstances of this game as our primary 'evidence'. You state that you didn't have particularly you didn't have any strong reads on D1 and wanted to be seen in a good light. I'm not so sure that is the case when I look back at your D1 posts: and here, as you yourself admit, we see that kita's arguments hold up pretty strongly. Do you have any particular response to kita's arguments beyond your meta? Another thing to note is that he goes with the thread sentiment at every step. Notice how he is against TPS/Wiggles when the conversation was primarily against those two players. Then, without any explanation whatsoever, he goes from TPS/Wiggles to WoS. That's strikingly suspicious given that his only mention of TPS after that post is in his last post (where he says if WoS is scum then TPS is not, which is not justified by anything) One last thing of importance: TranceStorm attacked DYH on day 1, and asserted that he did not ever drop the case on DYH. So, he went from DYH to TPS/Wiggles, to WoS, without any sort of explanation for the shift in reads each time. Each time, it seems as if he has simply gone with the flow to blend in. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 21 2013 05:00 VisceraEyes wrote: But I'm town Ryu. I'm not 3P. That's where you're whole post breaks down. You say you want to find scum, but you're voting to lynch a townie. So....? you're lying somewhere. Everyone in mafia will tell others that they are town. Your assertion that you are town makes no difference at all to my argument. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
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On March 21 2013 05:33 DoYouHas wrote: Again, this answer doesn't quite add up. If you have the mentality that you might die, then you write up the information and the corresponding case and you post it right before the deadline. If you already think you might die, you don't suddenly push a case that might make you an even more likely target. this too. Also, if I were a vet I personally wouldn't give a fuck about dying, given that doublestacks are pretty rare. The "I wasn't sure if I'd live" argument is pretty weak from a town-VE perspective. | ||
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On March 21 2013 11:45 sciberbia wrote: VE I don't think VE is scum. I think VE might be third party (either now or by tonight). I don't know if said third party is worth our time disposing of. Hence I don't like voting for VE. This line of thinking is really stupid. Assuming you are town, you will optimally lynch ANY confirmed or highly probable non-town player immediately. This is not a kingmaker scenario (in which case it would not matter who you lynched anyway). Our goal is to kill all non-town. Do not make assumptions about the setup. Not lynching VE despite thinking he is third party is simply antitown and goes against our wincondition. I do think we should discuss other targets, but lynching VE is priority #1. On March 21 2013 11:47 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm making a case on Wiggles. It's irrefutable I can assure you. This is the time. OUR FREEDOM IS AT HAND!!! Sounds like fabrication to me, given that the tone of this post indicates VE wanting to simply live, and having already assumed Wiggles is scum in order to attack him. If VE truly were town I would expect him to attack his top 3 "scumreads" from earlier, which included Wade, myself, and Coagulation. Instead, he chooses Wiggles, whom he called town on day 1, only to mysteriously change his stance. VE seemed to be cognizant of this apparent discrepancy, since he found the need to say this: On March 20 2013 07:38 VisceraEyes wrote: For the record, I was scum on Wiggles, I just wasn't willing to lynch him today until that post. But that post shows me that he doesn't care at all about finding scum . which doesn't make much sense. At the very least his change of stance regarding Wade in light of greymist's flip can be justified according to balance concerns, but this change of stance makes no sense at all. Ignoring VE, I think we should lynch TranceStorm tomorrow. He still has done nothing and despite his statement that he would lurk less he is still not around. | ||
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I think he's more likely to be scum than glurio. I haven't looked too closely into the other players, but from memory I can't recall anything significant that any of them have done. They all are lurkers to me. | ||
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On March 21 2013 12:03 sciberbia wrote: Our win condition is not to remove all non-town. It is to remove all threats to the town. You are the one making an assumption by assuming that the mirror is a threat to the town. I see no good evidence of this. For one thing, he does not seem to have KP. This is something that irks me about closed setups though. You can help your alignment to win by knowing what kinds of setups the host would be likely to make. I don't know anything about DrH but I see no in-thread evidence that the mirror is a threat to us. what convoluted world do you live in that a third party is "not a threat" to town? This is a normal game, anything not green or blue needs to be killed before the town can win. | ||
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He's only concerned with living/not getting lynched. To this end, notice how his "reads" have changed. They've varied radically at every passing moment. At some point he was convinced DarthPunk was scum, that wiggles was town, then that Wade+me+Coag are scum, then he switched to wanting Wiggles dead. How can anyone reasonably say that VE is interested in the same things town is interested in? The best evidence we have points to the conclusion that he is not, and so he should die. | ||
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I saw the lynch just now, but I'm really confused. How the hell did Ace get lynched over VE? Even Wiggles/GK would have been better lynches, but seriously?? VE needs to die. He's done absolutely nothing this game except point fingers, contradict himself, and piss on the thread. At no point have I thought to myself, "Wow, I like VE's thoughts on so and so." At no point have I thought to myself, "I really hope VE gets protected by a medic tonight." At no point have I thought to myself, "Wow, VE really is an asset to town." Normally I would think VE is an asset to town, even when sometimes he has the propensity to be a drama queen. This game his drama has been almost intentionally destructive. Yesterday he went from suspecting myself/Wade/Coag to attacking Wiggles when it suited his convenience (when he was vote leader.) When Wiggles made a case on Ace that made him look better, VE took the opportunity to go "aha! I wanted to kill Ace, let's do it!" and what's shocking is that the rest of the Ace voters jumped with him. Recall, too: VE accused Ace of derailing the Wiggles wagon. Someone please explain to me how this makes sense from a VE town perspective. Pathetic, really. | ||
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On March 22 2013 06:22 VisceraEyes wrote: *yawn* look at all the scum trying to discredit me. Pathetic really. rofl, I'm scum for pointing out that you have no interest in helping town this game? You have no credit to begin with. You've been utterly antitown this entire game. On day 1 you call Wiggles town, you call BH town, only to out him as a mason later. You lie about being recruited by the mirror (or you have been recruited and you're lying about lying) You take a convenient opportunity post lynch to push the blame onto the originator of the day 1 wagon (me) despite not doing anything yourself to stop it. Really nice way to set up mislynches as scum. On day 2 you don't push your main targets, only get into a pissing contest with BH. AND to top it all off you go from Wiggles = town to Wiggles = scum when it conveniently suits you, only to suddenly turn around when Wiggles provides a case on Ace, a player you never really mentioned, and then you jump on the Ace wagon! So what exactly am I discrediting here? You can't change the facts. | ||
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I know that as town you are better than this. So, either change your game and help me find scum ASAP or I will get you lynched tomorrow. I just hope I will live to be able to keep you in check. | ||
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On March 22 2013 06:32 VisceraEyes wrote: My read going from Wiggles town to Wiggles scum was never "convenient for me". And I'm not "getting into a pissing contest" with BH, I'm explaining why I think he's scum. You didn't even MENTION my case on him, you're just cherrypicking events that suit your argument. I've provided reasoning for all of my scumreads, you're simply ignoring that fact. I didn't mention your case on him because it's nothing but tunneling him to oblivion. I hold nothing either of you have said about each other to any sort of regard. | ||
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On March 22 2013 06:35 VisceraEyes wrote: Your threat is meaningless. I've resigned to death. That's what you scummy fuckers keep glossing over. I'm DEAD ALREADY because of the shit I pulled yesterday. Rather than niggle me about my play, why don't you explain why my case against WF is wrong? You know, if you're REALLY trying to help me and not just blow smoke up my ass? it's not my responsibility to get you off a tunnel, given that you have not actually shown particular interest in getting WF lynched. Creating a huge shitfest with BH is not indicative to me that you actually truly believe he is scum, given that you swapped to two different players (who were both unmentioned/town reads prior to that) with almost no resistance at all. The simpler conclusion is that you are scum, and that's why you don't care who gets lynched. You attack BH, but if you were town and truly thought he were scum I would expect you to actually care about pushing people onto him. Instead, you were far more concerned with living. (and the evidence for this is you wanting to kill Wiggles/Ace) If you really thought Wiggles was scum, wouldn't you be suspicious of him not being around at all right now/or at important times? If you really thought BH was scum, why weren't you more concerned about the fact that no one agreed with you? None of these things make sense from a town perspective. They all make sense from a scum perspective, though. | ||
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On March 22 2013 06:37 VisceraEyes wrote: You can't discredit it as "tunneling into Oblivion" because I've been VERY open to other targets. In FACT. In what way am I "tunneling BH into Oblivion" when I'm simultaneously looking at other candidates? This is a blatant lie and a completely transparent attempt to dodge the issue. you're not OPEN to targets, you're simply self-centered. Your only proven interest so far is in saving your own hide. | ||
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On March 22 2013 06:43 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not doing this. I'm not getting drawn into an argument with you. If you think I'm scum then lynch me tomorrow or shoot me tonight if you're able. I don't have time to fuck with you...I've got cases to write. sure, "cases" that you yourself are not willing to lynch someone over. Your "case" on BH really was quite useful yesterday, was it not? When ultimately, your vote was on Ace. It doesn't matter what you say at this point, it is only your actions that define your alignment. | ||
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If it exists, a converting mason as third party does not make much sense. Either VE or the mirror guy is lying about something. I tend to think it is VE. In a past Dr. H game I believe there was a converting mechanic, I think it was mafia-aligned. IF there is a recruiting mechanic, I would warrant it being on the scum side, since it makes more sense that way. A third party recruiter makes things very weird because a mafia who gets recruited will have the ability to simply out the mafia team, but a mafia recruiter doesn't have that problem. It's cleaner in that sense. Thus if the mirror really is a recruiter, I would warrant it being a mafia recruiter, and not a third party one. | ||
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On March 22 2013 06:57 cosmicomics wrote: Depends on the night results. His behavior and actions aside, VisceraEyes' vet claim is very strong indicator that he isn't scum if it is true. The key phrase is "if it is true". Because this game has a closed setup, we do not know the nature of scum KP. There is no reason to suppose that it should go by standard precedent (in which I suspect 3 initial KP for scum), and with the flip of a role like Nightmare, I don't find it a stretch to think scum were compensated with other forms of KP. Therefore if the night actions suggest that VisceraEyes' claim is indeed valid, then I swallow my pride because it is more likely that VisceraEyes is playing funky than it is for scum to sacrifice one of their KP to fakeclaim vet, and we get down to lynching goodkarma and unfolding things from there. If not, it's tunnel city because there is nothing aside from his claim that I see as reasonable body of evidence that he is town. I agree with this. It is very likely that mafia has more than 1 KP. It's just not balanced for a game of this size (unless the mafia has an infinite use recruiter, but that doesn't sound like it would be within the parameters of a normal game) This is mostly speculation, so whatever. The only reason I can find at all for considering VE as town is the hit claim. However, his reaction following the daypost is strange in and of itself. Either scum double stacked Keirathi n1 and VE claimed a hit, or scum shot Keirathi and VE, or scum have 1 normal KP and something to make up for it elsewhere. So tbh I can't find any good reason to take VE's shot claim at face value. | ||
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@Wiggles, few questions for you. I'll talk with you if no one else will. After rereading my strongest scum read is probably DarthPunk. Clearly no one wants to lynch VE, but I would still consider him a good lynch candidate given that he lied about the third party stuff and has repeatedly tried to misrepresent my play. I could very well just be biased, though, and it may not be that far-fetched for a town-VE to resort to such tactics. I don't think BH flipping scum makes him look that much better, particularly because he backed off of BH on day 2. If he really was recruited, I think he might be scum for this. Here's my thought process: I already outlined earlier why I think, if there is a recruiter, it's almost assuredly a scum recruiter. On day 2, VE instead of going after BH, went after you and Ace. Ace flipped town. I called him out on this very strange change in behavior. I think this may be because VE was recruited by scum, and lied because obviously his wincondition changed. This may also explain the lack of a second scum shot on n1 despite there being 4 kills on n2 (assuming 2 were vigis), and why VE was hesitant to explain RE: the shot he supposedly took. What do you think of this? I know it's very conspiracy-theory-esque, but I think that there's a good possibility of it being true given how strangely VE changed his reads and focus day 2, or at least attempted to. This also fits with BH masoning VE day 1. Can you provide exactly what you believe makes glurio look town to you? I otherwise mostly agree with your reads, particularly with the fact that kitaman so far has simply cruised by without doing anything. I, too, have failed to properly read into the lower activity players, but I simply have not had the time to do so recently. Lastly, I wanted to address something that I saw VE mention earlier, as it is a blatant misrepresentation and it's something I had already addressed on day 1. On March 23 2013 06:58 VisceraEyes wrote: This is what I'm referring to with the sandroba read. Which is clearly not the case because in addition to actually VOTE the guy, he also had this to say. My vote on sandroba was a pressure vote. If I don't characterize my position toward someone as "I think they're scum," then the vote becomes meaningless. This post by VE is simply a mischaracterization of something I said, taken literally, out of context of the rest of my posts. It's fairly obvious in the context of the game that I never had a strong read on sandroba. I voted him to get something out of him, but that never happened because he got replaced. Instead, I followed through on greymist. | ||
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Instead, he seems to be completely content with letting the thread die, which is very uncharacteristic of his town play. | ||
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I want to lynch DP today over wiggles. I don't think a scum wiggles has the incentive to be here and answering these questions as openly as wiggles is. I don't see him do this as scum and I don't think we'll get what we want with this lynch. It bothers me that there's no resistance. If any of you agree with me, then vote to lynch DarthPunk. ##unvote ##vote DarthPunk + Show Spoiler + I'd rather lynch VE but I know no one will want to lynch him. | ||
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I find that DP hasn't done as much as he normally does as town. | ||
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On March 24 2013 12:36 DarthPunk wrote: Heya I'm back and reading the thread. Once again there is a really weak push onto me for no reason. Good times. When THIS is the stated reason that someone wants to lynch me when I have a 9 page filter and the person claiming I am not doing enough to be town has a 2 page filter something s wrong. who cares? Size of filter does not correlate with contribution. In fact, you look even worse for the fact that you have so many posts yet I can't remember a single one of them, despite at some point reading them all. On March 24 2013 13:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote: You have my thoughts on every player left in the game as of this morning. Use that however you want. My town reads so far have been decently accurate, I read Vivax/Scib/GK all as town before they flipped. Unfortunately my scum reads have been very off. I feel that town's in a bad position, but it isn't unsalvageable. No one left in the game really feels like they have a strong hold over the course the town is taking, and with a lot of the spammers dead, someone with a good analysis can break the game open again for town. So, it's not like scum has town in a stranglehold where they're controlling all the lynches, it's just that the town's been so mediocre and disorganized that they haven't gotten their shit together enough yet to kill scum. So, while it looks pretty bad, I think if someone actually comes up with something good, they can at least even the game out a little. @ryu: Is there anything else you'd like to ask me or have me clarify before I hang? If you could kill any three players right now, who would you kill? | ||
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On March 24 2013 13:46 DarthPunk wrote: The same could be said for your posts with me. Anyway I think it's your problem because many others have had town reads on me. not really. I can't think of any lynch you've supported, or any of your reads, since you've been a nonfactor this game. Normally that's not a good sign. I have not necessarily had the time to post as much as I've wanted to, but I've been very clear on my reads, perhaps barring today (since Trance got modkilled/whatever happened to him and my #1 target is pretty much not going to get lynched) | ||
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You seem threatened, despite the fact that Wiggles is almost certainly dead today. | ||
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On March 24 2013 13:54 DarthPunk wrote: Then read the thread. I have been far from a non factor despite your assertions. YOU have in fact been a non factor which is ironic. Apparently you don't even remember day 1. I might have been wrong, but at the very least I got my choice lynched (as opposed to getting GK lynched, the major candidate at the time, who would have flipped medic.) Nice attempt to turn it around on me, though. Wanna try again? | ||
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On March 24 2013 14:01 WaveofShadow wrote: Nah Ryu's been a factor. In the mislynching of GreyMist. WoS what do you think of DP? | ||
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On March 24 2013 14:37 cosmicomics wrote: So you calling him scum or what? How is he culpable of "letting the thread die"? Yes, I am calling him scum. Read my posts. I don't think he is solely culpable for the thread dying, that's on everyone. However, I think as town VE would be in here right now talking. Yet, he's not. | ||
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On March 25 2013 05:19 cosmicomics wrote: While I agree with you on behavioral analysis, that means that scum chose only to use 1KP so VisceraEyes could fake claim vet status or that they have some really really weird KP formula. How do you think last night's KP went down? I don't think we have any way of knowing that, really. It's certainly possible that the KP from night 1 to night 2 changed if mafia have a recruiter, because a recruiter is essentially KP. It's worse, actually, since it buffers mafia count while reducing town count. So maybe they had 2 KP on n1 and shot VE, then decided it would be a great way to get cred to recruit him. Maybe they had 1 KP and a recruit on n1 and they decided to recruit VE, who claimed a shot so later when mafia have 2 KP, he'd basically be "confirmed". This is obviously all conspiracy-esque, but it's based on my feeling that, if there truly is a recruiter, it can't be a third party recruiter. A third party recruiter really does not make sense. I don't think VE is lying about being contacted by one, and his drastic change in behavior would seem to indicate that he really was recruited. Think about it: he wanted WF dead on day 1, but on day 2 was more than happy to switch to Wiggles or Ace. Yesterday, he was completely gone during the most crucial parts of the day, something I would never in a million years expect from town VE, given that the game only progressed by 3 or 4 pages. Why was I the only one talking to Wiggles? What did we gain from that lynch? It's obvious in hindsight it was just an easy bandwagon for mafia to push, so of course one would expect the mafia team to simply sit back and watch the town kill itself. | ||
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I'm gonna go to bed, reread in the morning and try to rethink things. | ||
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We kill cosmic today, and I will accept no other lynches. Having looked over the dead players last night, everyone calls him scum, yet no one actually votes him. There are plenty of reasons already stated by other players (kita and wiggles among them) and so I'm not going to bother rehashing those. ##vote cosmicomics | ||
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On March 27 2013 12:49 cosmicomics wrote: It's really straightforward. You either think I am scum and layabout my scum partner and you lynch us, or you think we are 3rd party and you don't lynch us. Doesn't make sense to call us 3rd party and then continue to lynch us because coupled with scum KP will probably be endgame. Actually, from my perspective it makes no sense to lynch anyone but you. If you are not with town, we need to kill you to win the game. That's what I know. My vote's not moving. | ||
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On March 27 2013 12:54 DarthPunk wrote: LOL I can't tell if you or I are going to look worse when I flip town. Are you actually town, or are you with this mirror guy? Or maybe I was right and you are scum? This game is turning out to be really stupid. But even if you are just dumb town it should still be really obvious to you that we can't win without killing cosmic. Reminds me of that game BH claimed SK as town because he thought he could manipulate town into letting him live on the condition that he "lent" them his gun. IIRC the targets he offered to kill were all townies. | ||
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On March 27 2013 12:56 layabout wrote: It would be nice if people were around rather than posting once and leaving: cough ken cough At least Ryu is here to tell us that he doesn't want to lynch mafia. third party and mafia are both scum. Nice try, scum. | ||
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loooool | ||
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nope. | ||
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On March 27 2013 13:41 ThePeashooter wrote: Sorry for my apathy. There were a certain few parts in this game that completely destroyed my will to play. Based off the most recent set of posting it looks like LayAbout is scum to me. I really don't think the WoS claim or my rolecheck can be questioned if you actually care to look at the evidence and he seems to just be trying to cause chaos. My apathy caused by certain players this game combined with me actually being really busy the last couple of days lead to me playing an extremely lackluster game. I really did intend on delivering more and better analysis but I just didn't have the time to do it the last few days. If you are town then fucking do something with us and kill cosmic. I've basically been in the same position as you. On day 1 I was sure greymist was scum, and I had a town read on WF. Since then I've realized how completely wrong many of my reads are. Cosmic+layabout+DP need to die. Let's start with cosmic today. | ||
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On March 27 2013 13:43 DarthPunk wrote: generally Mafia fake claims do not have all the perceived inconsistencies that this claim has. This claim makes no sense for scum. It makes sense for third party. Do I think that they win with town. NO. But I believe that they realise that without their help town loses. So for the moment it is in our mutual interest to work together. this is scum logic. Who claims 3 hours before deadline to save themselves? Scum. Who paddles back and forth between calling someone scum and voting someone else to simply live? Scum. Scum most probably has found an opportunity to win with mislynching town today. If scum lynches town and there are still 2 KP left then we're in a very bad spot. The argument "do I believe X wins with town? No" Should ALWAYS be followed by "thus I want to lynch X," yet we see here that miraculously DP has somehow come to the conclusion that we should not lynch this nontown player. I don't believe DP is stupid enough as town to do this, so he must be scum. | ||
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I'm talking to you, TPS. If you're town and you think layabout is scum then you need to consolidate on cosmic. They are both scum, but we don't have the votes to switch to layabout right now. | ||
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On March 27 2013 13:50 DarthPunk wrote: No. that is bullshit. there are situations were it is in the best interest for town to work with third party. namely, when town is in the shit. At the moment lynching 'not town' doesn't cut it. We need to lynch mafia. and if you were town you would understand that. false. At any point where town can win, the only time it doesn't matter who you side with is when you've already lost, aka kingmaker. In all other situations it's optimal to lynch CONFIRMED NONTOWN. You are not this stupid, and if you truly are then in postgame I will make sure everyone knows how much of a noob you are. | ||
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On March 27 2013 13:53 WaveofShadow wrote: Sorry dude, you're wrong this time. Mafia absolutely needs to die today BECAUSE THEY LOSE A KP. Now how exactly will you be proving that DP is a noob? what the fuck are you talking about, we don't even know mafia counts. 1 mafia is dead, if mafia count is 5 and KP is rounded up then we need to kill TWO mafia to reduce KP. Unless, of course, you know more than I do. | ||
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On March 27 2013 13:56 DarthPunk wrote: no. because if that was the case we lost a kp night one for no reason. LOL guess you're not reading the thread. Remember when VE THE VET flipped last night? He claimed a shot night 1. Jesus. There was 2 KP last night, and we can reasonably assume there was 2 KP on n2 given that 4 players died and we can trace that to TPS and probably Vivax. Which means SCUM PROBABLY HAVE 2 KP. Fucking christ if you are town this is mind numbing. | ||
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On March 27 2013 13:59 WaveofShadow wrote: Ryu, rounded down bro. I've literally posted this like 3 times and people like you and Geript constantly seem to be ignoring it. Use your brain. so you're making an assumption about the setup, or you know more than I do. Every normal I've ever played has been rounded up. So, are you claiming scum? | ||
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On March 27 2013 14:01 WaveofShadow wrote: Yes, I'm making an assumption about the setup. Where did the KP go night 1 if they had 3 to start? How do we know they had 3 to start??! They could have 4 members, they could have 5 members and double stacked keirathi, they could have a recruiter for all we know. Same goes for the supposed missing roleblock. Making assumptions of the setup is a great way to lose the game even faster than we're losing already. says the guy who claims that there was a KP missing n1 | ||
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On March 27 2013 14:19 WaveofShadow wrote: Thanks TPS. Ryu, question. If you believe cosmic and layabout are scum, and you seem to believe DP is as well, do you really think that 2/4 of the remaining scum would all be the first to jump on a wagon against kita? The other interesting thing to note about that is cosmic and layabout are not coalescing their votes onto the same target; they pick out kita and DP, which leads me to believe they are attempting to hedge their bets/protect someone. yes. Look at how many players we've lost, we've only killed one scum. I think that if they get a mislynch now and one tomorrow we've probably lost. Also, it makes sense with regard to how they reacted to the situation. Their votes and stories have not stayed consistent. I would expect them to stay consistent if they were truly third party or town who are interested in defeating mafia with town. | ||
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On March 27 2013 14:08 DarthPunk wrote: There is only kp missing working under your assumption that there was 5 scum and KP is rounded up. I don;t believe a kp was missing. Therefore I don;t believe your assumption. God you are claiming scum so hard right now. I haven't made any assumption. Now you're twisting words. I already explained that if there were 5 scum and 3 kp, that it could have been used for DSing. Or, they have 2 KP and a recruiter. Or, they have 2 KP and other roles to make up for it (e.g. the mason) I am not the one making assumptions here. There are more possibilities than simply the one you are suggesting. You are the scum for knowing how the KP works and then trying to use that to make me look bad. | ||
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Cosmic and layabout are confirmed nontown. They are either third party or scum, but either way they need to die. (IMO they are more likely scum, but whatever, it doesn't actually matter) | ||
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Who's making the assumptions again? It's in words-it's not me. | ||
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On March 27 2013 15:23 DarthPunk wrote: Well. Scum are obviously pushing this lynch pretty hard. I think the scum team is probably DYH + Kita + Ryo. CC and layabout are 99% non town aligned third party. oh look, another assumption. | ||
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On March 27 2013 15:25 DarthPunk wrote: the fact that it could have been 5 mafia rounded up. That's what I disagreed with. No point arguing with scum however. So I am going to ignore you from now on. so you're ignoring the fact that someone could have been double stacked? hahahaha and you're trying to call me scum. Such fail. | ||
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On March 27 2013 15:29 DarthPunk wrote: why the hell would someone double stack keir and not VE?!?!?!!? you are desperate to stop town realising the bad situation we are in. and you talk about assumptions while making them yourself. I'm not talking to you anymore. Feel free to keep abusing me. I will be vindicated because I KNOW you are scum. LOL keep squirming, scum. You make the assumption no one would double stack Keir. You make the assumption that no one would double stack if there were 3 KP. You make the assumption that layabout and cosmic are third party to suit your story. You make the assumption that town benefits from working with third party. You're making assumptions to suit everything you say. However, it's all fake and wrong since what suits you is what suits scum. Anyone with basic reading comprehension can see that. You claim I've made assumptions and yet I bet you can't even point one out for yourself. I just pointed out at least four. Keep trying to misrepresent, I dare you. Your threat of not talking to me is already clearly empty, since you know you'll lose either way. Either you ignore me, and prove me right, or you keep attacking me, and I prove that I'm right. Sucks to be in such a shitty situation, huh? | ||
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The mirror claims that he was basically just trolling VE when he told him he had a choice to join him or not. However, it doesn't make sense that cosmic and layabout would become lovers when connected. This has to be a lie, given that it actually is AGAINST cosmic's supposed wincon to connect to someone if that means there's now two ways to die. His claim actually makes literally no sense at all. It makes far more sense to consider instead that the recruiter is scum. Why? Well, a third party recruiter has the following HUGE problem: what happens if he recruits a scum? Either way, whether VE's description or cosmic's newer description of the role would basically break the game. I do not think a host would be allowed to create a setup in which a mafia member would be allowed to change his wincon because it creates a very very dirty situation. That mafia member would have to actively play against his previous wincondition, but then would have the identities of the other mafia. It just doesn't make much sense. A mafia recruiter eliminates all these problems. It also makes the claim make much more sense. The only thing we have to operate on is the fact that the claimer wants to live. Other than that we have no reason to believe the motivation. He's scum. The votes also put this into perspective. Why, if cosmic were truly interested in finding scum, would he act the way he did regarding both kita and DP? The votes changed as it convenienced cosmic: when cosmic realized that DP could be convinced and kita could not be, he swapped a second time. | ||
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On March 27 2013 15:40 DarthPunk wrote: can you not see that Ryu and Kita are scum. Stop being so wshy-washy. Take a stand a place your vote ffs. your best argument is "can't you see this", really? You should probably consider putting in more effort next time you roll red. | ||
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On March 27 2013 15:46 DarthPunk wrote: Look at that. He is implying that I am town here. after yelling that I am scum. THIS DUDE IS RED! nope. it's what you WANT it to appear like. You're just harping on semantics. | ||
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On March 27 2013 16:07 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Night 4 Cosmicomics the Mirror has been shattered! welp at least the bolded takes care of the mafia mechanic part, but fuck that's a weird ass role. good thing we lynched him today then. | ||
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On March 27 2013 16:27 DarthPunk wrote: This was a bad lynch. We should have killed mafia. RYU IS SCUM LYNCH HIM. LOL so desperate. First, how was it a bad lynch?! I'll spell it out: it wasn't. If layabout was town before the convert we just got another townie. We also killed a 3P who would control the vote at some point. If layabout was scum we basically didn't move from yesterday. Not a problem. If we hadn't killed him yesterday, then the game would have been out of our hands tomorrow most likely, because of the town deaths plus the attrition to the 3p. | ||
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If cosmic was alive and we lynched a townie yesterday, and layabout is town, and someone was converted tomorrow, we'd have lost if I'm not mistaken. | ||
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On March 28 2013 15:03 DarthPunk wrote: Yes I have interacted with kenpachi I called him stupid or something. and I haven't interacted with DYH because he has been such a negligible thread presence. Blazing hand was by kita's own admission a spammy player and had a major presence in the game. Kita QUOTES blazing hand and yet does not interact with him at all aside from backing his mason claim. Blazinghand was a MAJOR presence in the game and scum and kita's interaction or lack thereof is odd. Furthermore, kita has flown under the radar posting one giant post on a not scum every day. Ryu chainsaw defended kita to the extreme and came out of the woodwork as soon as kita's name was throw up as a lynch candidate. if I die tonight, look into this guy, along with: ThePeaShooter glurio zarepath. I think they are all very likely to be scum. Kita and Kenpachi possibly could be scum too, but I doubt it. WoS and Test are both very likely to be town IMO-Test is basically confirmed. WoS is making sense and people should listen to him. From what it seems, the scum team has been mostly lurking apart from Blazinghand and, now, DP. Most players in the game had suspicions of DP, IIRC all of the currently dead at some point found DP suspicious. DP has done just enough to scrape by without getting under serious scrutiny, while contributing literally nothing to town. Very basic scum strategy. | ||
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On March 28 2013 15:59 DarthPunk wrote: OK. If I get shot tonight here is what you do. Lynch Ryu and Kita. If Kita doesn't die tonight he is basically guaranteed to be scum. plus all the stuff with Blazinghand and flying under the radar. If Wave of Shadow doesn't die tonight he is scum and needs to be lynched. Zarepath, geript, glurio, TPS and test subject are all probably town. They are lynchbait and have been kept around for that very reason. DO NOT LYNCH INTO THEM! DO NOT LISTEN TO THE BULLSHIT THAT RYU IS SPEWING. Find out who WoS checked. See if it makes sense. I can almost guarantee that it will be zarepath. and that Either: Zarepath will die and flip green. Not die and WoS will get roleblocked. If you get a red check out of nowhere. DO NOT BLINDLY FOLLOW IT. It is most likely MYLO at that point. If you get a red check on Zarepath. LYNCH WoS. GLHF and GG kids <3 Proof that DP is scum right here if he were reading the thread he'd know that test is basically confirmed for shooting BH. He's scum. | ||
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On March 28 2013 16:03 DarthPunk wrote: I know he is confirmed town. Stop taking one thing. Deliberately misinterpreting it and then try to discredit everythign I say because of that. It is fallacious and plain wrong. so how can confirmed town be lynchbait? You're pretty shitty at scum. | ||
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On March 28 2013 16:04 DarthPunk wrote: The rest are lynchbait. He is town. I lumped him in the same group. Get out. All I'm seeing is "I didn't read the thread and scumslipped. Oh fuck what do I do?!" | ||
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On March 28 2013 16:08 DarthPunk wrote: It's not a scumslip. You are trying to discredit everything I say because you are scum. That is fine. That is your job as scum. It is so fucking transparent that you are scum. You are just shitting on everything I say and not being constructive. I hope town can see through your BS but I doubt they can. I will not engage with you further. Because, unlike you, my win condition is not progressed by crapping all over anything constructive. SAYS THE GUY CRAPPING ON A LEGITIMATE POINT THAT SCREAMS DP IS SCUM. jesus, I am so mad right now. It's incredibly frustrating that this town is too inactive or just plain dumb to do anything, since nothing says "I am scum" more than someone basically admitting they did not read the thread. | ||
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Zarepath's post calling out me and Kita is afaik the first time he has mentioned either of us all game; quite convenient for him given that he has done absolutely nothing himself. I'm on my phone on lunch break but I should be back in a few hours to post properly. | ||
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So the last scum are in these players IMO: TPS glurio geript Zarepath Given layabout's early posting, and the way both WoS and Kita post, I'm not convinced they are scum. They've all been relatively decent town reads for me. Your effort now redeems you a bit but given that it's only coming out when scum most probably will just win with a mislynch, I am not convinced you are town. | ||
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DYH could be scum too, in fact I think it's very likely actually. He hasn't done anything in a cycle or two. | ||
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On March 29 2013 07:38 zarepath wrote: So you think WoS isn't scum, but that the only fruit of his being a DT, a town read on TPS, is scum? In fact, at the top of your list? Can you explain that please, because that's a big token of evidence on his side. Also, geript really got into it with BH; geript was one of the first (if not the first) people to call BH scum. Why do you think a scummy geript would do that? I could be wrong about one or more players; e.g. WoS and TPS could be scum together, or TPS might not be scum, or WoS could have checked a framed target/godfather. However, simply based on how they post and what they've done, I think WoS is townier than TPS. My list is not made in any particular order, especially as most of the scum seem to be lurking. | ||
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I would expect him as town to at least try to be part of discussion (though I would expect that from any townie, tbh). Our best bet would probably be to lynch into someone like glurio or Kenpachi though, as I think they are almost certain to be scum. | ||
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On March 29 2013 09:13 WaveofShadow wrote: It'll be a little bit before I can respond in detail but thank you for looking at the post Geript. There are still way too many people that have yet to show their faces during a LYLO day and that on its own is pretty much the scummiest thing you could ask for. What better way to ensure town loses than to not show up? Later on this evening I'll be back to give Zare what he wants and talk a little. I agree with this completely. kenpachi, DYH, kita etc. all look much worse for not being around. | ||
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On March 29 2013 13:45 ThePeashooter wrote: So Ryu, what are your thoughts on Kita? I think he's town in a very similar situation to me. I think based on the DP kill that scum wanted to push an easy mislynch on me or kita. The push on me makes both layabout and zarepath look worse in particular, but it's unlikely layabout is scum solely for this (it's the only reason I can find for calling him scum) However I do think that scum are very likely to be in the lurkers as well; glurio, kenpachi, and DYH can all be mafia. Right now I'd be down to lynch zarepath or DYH/kenpachi. | ||
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##vote zarepath | ||
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DYH still not showing up means he's almost certainly scum. I'm with WoS on this. His case is also very good, particularly the part about DYH "narrowing" the list of suspects. It's clear that DYH was trying to set up lynches by the look of his posts. It's also pretty scary that no one else is willing to lynch DYH. (or zarepath for that matter). ##unvote ##vote DoYouHas | ||
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Seems legit. | ||
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On March 30 2013 08:02 glurio wrote: DYH is a crap lynch, only people who will support you on that are scum like ryu, WoS. *slowclap* wonderful defense. | ||
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On March 30 2013 08:51 ThePeashooter wrote: We are running out of time and running low on activity. I didn't write up entire cases but here is what I have. kita, glurio, layabout, kenpachi scum team. Zarepath possible alternate for scum. ryu, wave of shadow, geript, DYS, me town Of the players listed blazinghand ignores and never references any of the 4 players listed in red. Zarepath gets soft defended by BH day 1 then shortly after that amidst a flurry of activity the votes get switched off Zare and end up on Greymist. Me and WoS are town determined by DT claim. Understandably some of you won't know our alignment as well as I do but I believe his claim made sense. DYS/Ryu both had specific posts I viewed not being very likely or possible to come from a mafia. They both also had not that scummy of post history. Glurio can't hold a thought and just keeps jumping around on to whatever seems good at the time. He said we need to lynch LayAbout then just immediately jumps ship and goes off on how we should lynch Kita upon never actually saying anything about Kita up until that point. Kenpachi I have elaborated on. Kita is not anywhere near as active as he should be and although his posts make sense for the most part I can't help but feel he can't be town because there is no reason he should be alive at this point. LayAbout would probably be my alternate for Zarepath. BH also never acknowledged LayAbout in any of his posts combined with LayAbout looking generally scummy. Today I'd probably be most comfortable with killing either Glurio or Kenpachi. I don't particularly care which. I disagree strongly on DYH. Maybe it's best to simply kill Kenpachi, since literally everyone thinks he's scum. Sorry I can't provide more than this atm, on my phone. | ||
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On March 30 2013 09:59 Kenpachi wrote: I have it out here: Ryu, DYH, geript all mafia so you think me and DYH are scum together, and I'm bussing him? This is all you have to say? loool | ||
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On March 30 2013 16:33 geript wrote: 2 KP until we get down to 2 scum when it becomes 1. Yah DP, I tried to get them onto the bus. They just wouldn't listen. why bus when you can just win? People always talk about bussing as if you have to do it, you don't. It's only needed if it has a purpose and draws town away from the bussers. Sometimes it's done just because, and the remaining members don't get any benefit from the bus and die anyway. In fact, that happens a lot more often than you think. Bussing confers only indirect advantages, at best, no direct ones. In fact, a wrong bus is a direct DISadvantage, inherently, because you lose a mafia member. BTW if BH had sent in the correct actions n1 (RB+shoot VE instead of RB+shoot keir) we would have won a cycle earlier, lol | ||
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On March 30 2013 16:42 WaveofShadow wrote: Where do you get two nights in a row? I barely mentioned Vivax at all and he was killed; it just so happened that my N2/N3 checks were both killed so even if I was roleblocked it wouldn't have mattered. I'm going through the scum QT now to try and get an idea of what was going on; it seems as though there were a lot of fuckups in general from both host and night action type stuff. there were only two, and the host thing was minorly frustrating but not that bad. I intended on trashing the thread with DP but that would've been more work on my part than what ended up happening when he died. I predicted that if I got into a fight with DP then neither of us would be touched by the lynch, as no one would listen to us, and then it would be easy to lynch whomever. BH on n1 accidentally sent in shoot + RB keirathi, shoot VE instead of shoot + RB VE, shoot keirathi as we had planned. That resulted in VE living. (I was against the VE shot entirely) After that I sent in all the actions. The fourth cycle (whenever cosmic got lynched) was the most interesting. We were in a really bad spot and kita did a PYP:I-esque maneuvre in lying to layabout about the recruit. It was a great move-we suspected that we might have to kill cosmic but were not sure how. By lying to layabout he ensured that we could plan a cosmic lynch and he also found out exactly what the third party's goals were (though we were not aware what would happen if he died-we went on the assumption that layabout would be left with no wincon, worst case basically) Overall I think our most impressive effort was killing cosmic day 4 so fluidly. Part of it comes down to how passively (IMO) cosmic played, but I think we did really well in coordinating that lynch. | ||
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On March 30 2013 16:49 WaveofShadow wrote: Pretty much everybody played passively this game though...not to belittle your efforts but it sure as hell seemed like an easy game from the scum QT POV. I don't think that's true. People didn't play passively all the time, it just became more passive as it went on as we killed/lynched threats and town became discouraged. IMO the game was too active days 1 and 2. We shot or lynched the townies with the potential to make sense immediately. On day 1, half the town sheeped my case on greymist. By the time day 2 was over I think the thread was at 120 some pages, that's just insane. Even just reading that will take you hours, without even speaking of analysing posts or even trying to meta analyse. A lot of it comes down to people just posting for the sake of posting, splitting their attention too much, and not doing enough to read before posting. Sure, lurking is bad, and you shouldn't necessarily lurk, but consolidate your posts so that town is not disorganised. The best scumhunters on the forum all post very little in comparison to the average player, but rarely do they actually get lynched because they actually take the time to read and know what's going on. I think the only real exception to that would be marv, who posts quite a lot compared to the likes of Foolishness/sandro/syllo/Ver/Incog etc. On March 30 2013 16:49 DarthPunk wrote: It was frustrating to argue against you Ryu. Your arguments were incredibly retarded but you succeeded in making town ignore me by shitting all over everything I said. hahaha chalk that up to no fear, I guess. My only fear is a vigi when I'm scum. | ||
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On March 30 2013 17:13 ThePeashooter wrote: You play like a complete asshole. That is not a compliment. Your spammy post style is not a legitimate play style and its utterly discouraging. it's not an illegitimate strategy at all. He was scum, his interest is in getting town disorganised. Posting a lot accomplishes this and nothing he did broke any rules. If you don't like players who do that, make a policy to lynch or pressure them when they do it, and punish them for it. Trust me when I say you will probably discourage townies from contributing, and it'll probably backfire. You have to be good enough to realize when a player needs to be ignored/lynched for posting too much. | ||
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On March 30 2013 17:22 ThePeashooter wrote: Even if you are scum, if you are winning purely because you spammed the thread that's not a real win. That would be equivalent to me trying to get you modkilled because I think you are scum. Winning the game through illegitimate methods defeats the point in playing the game. And I don't believe you will try. I told you how to not triple post, how to not keep posting on your BlazingHand account and you ignored me multiple times and proceeded to triple post. what? Do you think cheesing in Starcraft is an illegitimate way to win? Do you think using a triple pronged drop as Terran is an illegitimate win because you're forcing the opponent to multitask? Like, I really don't understand this. There is nothing in the rules against posting a lot. It simply sounds like you're butthurt over BH playing to his wincondition. What would be against the rules would be something like betting money on someone flipping a certain alignment, or doing something that's outside of the realm of the game (i.e. using encryption, or writing a script to spam the thread, or something similar) to gain an advantage. Posting a lot is not illegitimate, and it's honestly laughable that you consider it so even when plenty of townies posted more than BH. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at both VE's and Mocsta's filters. You calling it an illegitimate strategy is just evidence that you are biased against BH's style in this particular case, as I don't see you telling Mocsta and VE that they fucked over town with their play. | ||
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On March 30 2013 17:30 geript wrote: I'd believe you  I had you caught halfway into D1. My real question is why when I present a bus attempt does no one even read it? I know that Wiggles noted in his case that I had a 5-6 page filter and he had me at null (which I was ecstatic about), but I really think that newbs get listened to far less often than they should. no one read it probably because people are less inclined to look at more inactive posters, and because there were simply so many posts to begin with. | ||
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On March 30 2013 17:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Trying to make your opponents rage quit by being a huge dick isn't a legit strategy Bugs. I don't see how spamming = being a huge dick. By your own words you and Mocsta did much more to hurt your own team than BH ever did. | ||
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In fact I'm probably far more civil as scum than town. | ||
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a lot of people use confrontation as a town tell. If a player is confrontational, a lot of people say, or willing to take attention, or do controversial things, or say things that are dumb/say things loudly/provoke reactions, a lot of people will get a town read on them for those things. Using those facts as scum, in my opinion, is hard, but extremely effective. | ||
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Ace noob | ||
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On September 05 2011 00:17 wherebugsgo wrote: Idc if someone's playing like a noob I'll call them out. Ace. | ||
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On March 30 2013 17:57 Ace wrote: explain ![[image loading]](http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3jvytTE1C1qbx51ho1_250.gif) + Show Spoiler + me and BH right now and yes, that lynch was weird as fuck. I wanted to push a second mislynch d2 and then just take all the attention in the world, but Wiggles had a better idea, so we let him do his thing. Then he died too. lol. | ||
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On March 30 2013 18:00 Ace wrote: I was asleep. But seriously I didn't even have a ton of time and I thought I made well reasoned posts, trying to keep everyone focused on 1 thing at a time. Somehow I got blamed for "telling everyone to stop scumhunting" and got lynched. Sigh v_v that's why I smurfed (not enough time to keep up my posting standard). if I was on my normal acc I would've definitely played a different game. Well, if I was forced to not smurf I probably wouldn't have played, but w/e. + Show Spoiler + also note that I mean I felt like I could've posted satisfactorily, but it would have been less than normal, i.e. I would take a lot of flak from people for not posting enough to my meta | ||
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On March 30 2013 18:04 Ace wrote: smh that meta shit made re-reading this a fucking pain. half the finger pointing was "yo you aint playin to your meta - SCUM!". yeah speaking of, I read your post about meta and I disagree to an extent. Having talked to Foolishness (and having used his ideas) meta is IMO, a lot of the time, really really important. There are a lot of players who play wildly differently based on alignment. With that said, I can agree with your general sentiment, not because meta is bad, but because it is used badly. I know it's been discussed quite a bit before, but I think the biggest failing is that people associate any change in behavior with a change in alignment. Games are not one to one, and context needs to be considered. Most important obviously though is the motivation for an action, and I think that's a problem with town analysis in general, not just meta analysis. I think the biggest problem town had this game was focusing on the motivation behind the actions of players, rather than simply looking at what they were doing. I know it's stressed in Ver's guide but I still don't think people focus on it enough. It's hard, but I don't think the conscious effort is always there. From a scum perspective meta and motivation are important too; it's how we pegged Vivax as a blue. Both kita and myself pegged Vivax as blue day 1 for separate reasons (read the QT for more) and it was primarily based on the motivation behind different posts he made. kita pegged him on a meta-analysis of his games, and I pegged him based on a single sentence he said. Since both of us agreed on it we were pretty confident he was blue, so he became a priority kill on n2 (though on n1 we chose to ignore him) | ||
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I'd love to discuss the game on the podcast at some point, and it seems like there are at least a couple others who want to participate as well. | ||
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On March 31 2013 02:17 strongandbig wrote: I need to figure out how wbg got so completely found out but managed not to get lynched. It was like, somehow at various points during the game, many of the most influential townies made correct cases on him but they never made it a priority and he still managed to not get lynched or even to be under serious threat of getting lynched. Talk about slippery. I don't think it's too hard, but my mentality is basically this: I don't fear (most) players, so even if they are right, I will ensure I won't get lynch traction. Really the only two things I fear are vigis and my own teammates (yes, as weird as that sounds). However, you can encourage or lead your teammates so that they generally are not a problem. You don't have to baby your teammates, just set them straight when they panic or worry about things that should not be a concern. This game I definitely played slightly differently at the least to how I normally do as scum, at least in my opinion. I tried to emulate Ace in being able to influence a lynch while simultaneously taking no/little pressure for it. I tied it to my own style; I think Ace as scum wouldn't necessarily lead a lynch, but I did on day 1. Obviously leading a lynch makes it harder to shake suspicion, but if you stress the validity and reasonability of what you say I think you can get away with a lot. You can basically get away with murder in this game. So, what do I do when someone accuses me? Well, most of the time there is some element of bias or something at the very least that I can refute. Depending on your accuser you can either turn it around on them, or reason it out. I reasoned more seriously with DYH, for example, while I turned it on VE. That's because I predicted what type of reaction they would both have, and I benefited both times. (I expected DYH to back off and I expected VE to attack me more and thus split targets, making him an easy lynch if needed, and making it easier to manipulate his target focus as well) Mostly it's by feel but being able to not get lynched isn't terribly difficult if you always focus on the important things. You don't have to respond to everything either, since it's not what you would do as town. | ||
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On March 31 2013 06:25 geript wrote: Out of curiousity, Bugs what do you think of my points? all good things to remember but I think 7 and 8 are the most important. In fact I would say that you can win a game as scum simply if you know how to abuse perspective. | ||
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Also I'm sure he considered the fact that if he's catching all these scum, how does he escape the lynch long enough to live, since if he wasn't just bussing he'd just get shot by scum. On March 31 2013 09:41 Ace wrote: Do I need to explain the VE case again? Because I think some of you are overthinking the situation when it's really simple. Stop being results oriented and be process oriented. There is no difference between 3rd party recruiter and Scum: they are both Anti-Town factions. yep, agreed, which is why the whole thing about cosmic being a bad lynch was stupid. Sure, he was 3rd party, but his interest is literally the same as scum's. | ||
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The only situation in which I might consider not killing the 3P when it's known there is one, is if there was a red check on someone and we were certain it was real. Considering the fact that killing a scum on that day would not have pushed lylo any further back, killing 3rd party was the absolute best option in that situation. (this is because the 3P would have gained a member) It's only if you will lose unless you kill scum that you should ever ignore a 3p, and those types of situations are so rare, I do not think I've ever seen one on TL. e: most importantly, in this situation the 3P recruiter is indistinguishable from a scum recruiter. | ||
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If anything, THAT is an illegitimate strategy, given that you purposely only post to avoid a modkill. I myself would strongly consider replacing or modkilling you for that type of strategy in one of my games, because my rules explicitly state that trying to skirt an inactivity modkill will result in one. Clearly the host this game did not have a problem with spam, otherwise people would have been warned for it. (and if they were, I am not aware of it). Calling it an illegitimate strategy is honestly self-deceptive, almost like a cop-out for not playing well. | ||
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On March 31 2013 12:44 ThePeashooter wrote: You knew me at a different time. I used to post a lot and play a lot regardless of alignment. This is what I absolutely hated and why I stopped playing. I was busy with school/work/gf and didn't have the time to contribute as much as I used to be able to. I'd look at the thread and there would be 50 pages for me to read and I straight up didn't have time. It had nothing to do with me being scum but somehow everyone assumed it did. I did it as town too and kept getting lynched D3 and had my ass rode until I died for like 5 games straight. I couldn't put in the time because of how much mafia games have changed over the years. That's why I stopped playing and that's why I played this game on a smurf. I didn't feel like getting typed into playing in a specific way based on literally no reasoning. My life and responsibilities have changed since I started playing mafia and so has the current meta of the game itself. With both attributes changing drastically I was unable to play in the same way I used to. It has nothing to do with me flipping scum. Take a look at Insane Mafia, or some of my other games as scum from years ago. I had no issue posting a lot and staying active with the thread. It's just that times have changed. fair enough, but it's one thing to frown upon spamming and another thing completely to classify it as "illegitimate". Obviously no town likes an overly spammy game, just as no town will like an overly inactive game. That's why there's a policy such as lynch all lurkers. If there's a style of play that you don't like or you think is detrimental to town, the onus is on you to push an idea or policy that will limit that type of play. Taking your approach is not going to improve your play IMO. | ||
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On March 31 2013 12:50 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I think since it is actively discouraging other players from playing for a reason not specifically within the game then it is illegitimate. I see purposely making the game unreadable, or inadvertently making the game unreadable due to constant posting for no reason as a detriment to the game as a whole regardless of alignment. again, you have this irrational bias against BH because he was scum. What Mocsta and VE did is identical (actually, arguably much worse) yet you have nothing against them because they spammed as town. This is a huge double standard. Two solutions to this: 1. request that some sort of rule change be made (and it's unlikely to happen, given how hazy the idea of spamming is-what constitutes it? What's the cutoff? The punishment?) 2. deal with it in-game. IMO number 2 is unequivocally the better option. Hosts already warn for spam, and there's not much else you can do for it. | ||
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It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 31 2013 13:11 cosmicomics wrote: Eh, depends on do you want to win the game vs. do you want to improve overall play of TL Mafia (and have less chance winning that specific game)? Because I'd probably keep the vig for a strong scum read (for the sake of winning), rather than shooting into lurkers / players with playstyles I don't like. there's literally no difference between a 1 shot policy vig and a 1 shot vig other than one is limited by who you can shoot. It's also incredibly hard to balance because the cutoffs for spamming/lurking are completely subjective (so to make it fair you'd probably need to do something like have someone who doesn't have the roles determine whether the shot is valid or not) and if you argue that you can add KP for such a role, then you need to balance for that KP. It's an ugly way to deal with something that arguably isn't a problem that needs to be fixed with roles in the first place. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 31 2013 13:21 slOosh wrote: I'd agree it isn't like a problem we drastically want to address, but there is something very attractive (at least to me) to a "minimal spam" type game. Yes, it's very subjective, but it's also something that I think would be very nice. Which is why I'm gonna go ahead with the invite game and see how that works out. it happened in the past and honestly IMO it was pretty dumb. I got shot for spamming, syllo got shot for saying "scum" lol. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 31 2013 15:44 Keirathi wrote: This whole argument: "The other guy played bad so I was justified in my vote". How about stop thinking like that, eh? But don't listen to me. I'm just the noob. not true, but VE really has no ground to stand on here. On March 31 2013 15:05 Mocsta wrote: weirdest thing is.. i read that log between kita/layabout & im shocked, it went so easily i mean.. there wasnt even a sense of concern from layabout? odd, because I thought i read that once layabout converted he lost the mason ability with cosmicomics. Hence? "HOW" could Kitaman mason him; and why was this never questioned? The whole thing is convoluted.. regardless.. well earnt win, and good adaption to the day4 lynch environment. layabout lost his mason ability with cosmic, but was still able to converse with scum (kita) kita lied and said he had been masoned by cosmic that cycle. Obviously no way for layabout to confirm since mason contact was broken. | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 31 2013 16:21 Mocsta wrote: Well one other thing for me is: This game specifically confirmed my love for Night Cycle - 23hr action submission deadline. Considering the 24hr deadline was "fluid"; it was frustrating that the validity of vig claims be questioned purely due to a moving deadline; or BH final words require to be deleted etc I have only seen the 23hr submission deadline in newbies, so uncertain why it is not apparent in the normal league? Any context I am missing? if I'm not mistaken, I was the originator of that 1 hour deadline thing (if someone did it before me, then I am unaware) however for whatever reason only my games ever had it. Apparently one of the newbie game hosts decided it was a good idea, I suppose? | ||
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RyuSuzaku
Japan139 Posts
On March 31 2013 17:25 Ace wrote: that should probably be the default night mechanic for the forum Night Action Resolution Period™ + Show Spoiler + patent pending | ||
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