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On March 20 2013 23:59 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:51 Vivax wrote:
Zarepath why do you keep asking people scummy questions about their rolenames and roles they don't concern you AT ALL, if you are town. It concerns me if a red Eye can get away with pretending to be blue. He's been incredibly vague his entire role claim, and his breadcrumb isn't actually a breadcrumb. He could have taken any sentence he said about TPS on N1 and said "I was going to say this phrase every time I checked someone." It's true his read on him changed, but his read changed on a lot of people (Wiggles) for seemingly no reason.
Silence, scum.
I'll get to YOU.
And that doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't I just leave TPS to look scummy as all hell if I knew he was town from the start? To set up some elaborate scheme where I'd pretend I rolechecked him and then defend him just to look townie?
You CLEARLY overestimate my abilities. I am the only one who is allowed to make conspiracy theories here.
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On March 21 2013 00:05 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 23:59 WaveofShadow wrote:You guys just couldn't let it go. I was making it work for me just like we did in Hydra mafia, but then it backfired in the exact same way. We were looking just scummy enough for mafia to leave us alive hoping for the mislynch, but trying to contribute enough so that town would leave us alone. Same thing here and I thought after last night I had it under control.....you guys.........  Unfortunately, my defense for you was based on pushing a lynch Day1, which was then pointed out to be false. The context of newbie DT makes sense for the behaviour of not pushing the lynch; thus, mitigating Kita case in my opinion. Hopefully when night comes, you will be medic protected. *fingers crossed*
Why do you think I was so confident when I pulled this out you guys would be changing your minds? (WIFOM I guess but whatever)
I really wanted to play this game longer. They's gunna double up on me.
Oh well at least I die knowing that townies with actual useful analysis and scumhunting skills will survive!
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On March 21 2013 00:07 zarepath wrote:
You didn't have to make up an elaborate scheme, you just had to make something up when you were going to get lynched and needed to find someone it could look like you'd breadcrumbed. I can't imagine that would be hard to do.
You were slow in actually claiming, in presenting your breadcrumbs, and have only been antagonistic the entire process. It's almost as if you were deliberately delaying while you found something you could present as a breadcrumb. I thought that breadcrumbs in non-newbie games were supposed to be really obvious things in retrospect, like using certain capitals or a cipher or whatever.
I don't see what town loses if you claim the name of TPS's role (you don't have to say its power or anything, if it has one or not), and he can say "Yes, that's right." Your breadcrumb wasn't convincing and you still haven't explained your switch on Mr. Wiggles, even though he was one of your strongest town reads. I think it's fine to require more proof.
I was delaying because I didn't want the game to essentially end for me.
In any case scumepath, I said I would be dedicating today to see you or Wiggle hang, so off I go.
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Alright regarding the role name, I want to see how other people in the thread weigh in on that. Hell maybe TPS himself, because right now it's like 3 of us.
If a few hours from now people agree I'll release the role name.
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On March 21 2013 00:27 Ace wrote:
zarepath I think this is a scenario of someone playing badly as Town rather than a Scum screwing up the claim. Unless Wos is running some kind of gamble here, he just looks like someone silly /newbie enough to put his own survival over winning as a part of the Town.
I feel like from the last few pages we have mostly pro-Town players arguing over trivial stuff. We should start looking at the people on WoS's wagon, especially if you believe he is innocent. I would cross-check that with anyone who tried to push keirathi before his/her death at night and the GreyMist lynch. that being said was GreyMist town? the way it's written is ambiguous.
This actually makes my night action PM a little more interesting. Is it automatically assumed that blue always = town?
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Oh and those mason logs ---lol.
I wonder what BH, best scum hunter on TL, has to say about my revelations.
And whether he might be wrong about you, zare.
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On March 21 2013 00:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
The "Mirror" is a third party cult leader of some kind and he tried to recruit me last night. Everyone beware "The Mirror" - he is in our midst and he will try and convert you too.
The fuck, where did that come from? Why pick specifically now to release that info?
(Also kinda reminds me of your D1 ploy lololol)
Logs?
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On March 21 2013 01:20 VisceraEyes wrote:+ Show Spoiler [The Mirror] +8
VisceraEyes
Fuck it I accept. If I'm going to be ignored by most of the thread, I might as well punish them for it.
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The Mirror
Of course I have countermeasures for survival. I would not have been given such an arduous task if it were not. And it seems like you are perceptive enough to understand what I offer you.
Do not fret about the delay in notification. That seems to be ... a trend this game. I shall inform you that playing "townie" will be in your best interest, and will hardly conflict with the greater purpose you shall receive. Everything will be made ... crystal clear. A-haha.
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VisceraEyes
sciberbia you should probably give me the specifics of your role because you're essentially claiming 3rd party to me here. I have received no notification from DocH that my win condition has changed, so as far as I'm aware I still win with town. You see what sticky situation this puts me in.
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VisceraEyes
Ooohhhh you're good. You're REAL good.
Tell me how this arrangement works. Because I'm assuming that I am already a part of whatever you have planned considering the choice of whether to be masoned with you or not is mine.
You're representing "townie" super hard and scum are going to want to kill you. Does your role account for this?
4
VisceraEyes
Too late you invited the wrong guy. I'm a compulsive claimer you see and have already revealed you to the thread. That would have been cool though.
No, if I keep surviving town would just lynch me. I'm of no use to you I'm afraid. But I may be of use to town. Thanks for the offer though! I'll tell you what: I'll give you until D4 to gather as many supporters as you can, then I reveal your purposes to town and we hunt you down.
That is, if I live that long :OOOOOOOOO
Unless you can convince me? If you have the power to give me what you say, surely you have a purpose in mind for bestowing it to me. If I were to...know that purpose?
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The Mirror
Welcome, VisceraEyes, to my humble abode.
I come to offer you a titillating proposition. I have powers. Oh so great powers. And it seems like you too have a great power. I want you to join me. I want you to employ you for my services, and in return I shall bestow upon you even greater power. Even, dare I say it, immortality.
"Surely you jest" you may think. But think closer again. I have already begun to recruit the brightest and crafty of minds. Town, mafia, these factions are child's play. These are just mere pawns in the greater power that is I, the Mirror.
I offer you an invitation to join me. It does not matter whether you herald town or scum.
If you are town, you have quite the powerful role. But dare I muse, it cannot be without limit? To you I offer an impregnable shield, one who will not falter during the night. Hide behind he and you can gain for yourself immortality.
If you are scum, then you will play the part of the double agent. Use your former teammates at your disposal. Manipulate the scum team to your own devices? To be numbered among the greats such as Keyser Söze, Mr. Orange, William "Billy" Costigan, Jr. or Staff Sgt. Colin Sullivan. Perhaps, to live out the dream that could have been Bureaucracy?
Of course if you are neither, you already know my purposes, and that you are but a step behind. Pressure me, threaten me, do as you wish, for I know it is all but a meaningless bluff.
My reach is infinite and it is not long that I will gather enough for my grand purposes. You may choose to join, you may choose to decline. What I offer you isn't employment ... but true freedom.
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VisceraEyes
I demand satisfaction, mystery mason! REVEAL YOURSELF!
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VisceraEyes
Interesting development. -.- I suspected it was sciberbia based on the timing of the posting, but I don't think that's the case any longer. I told him I accept and immediately unmasoned him (I was told masoning with him was at my will) and came to the thread.
Uh....so...you accept?
Does that make you 3rd party now and we have to lynch you?
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We'll I'm assuming the reference to Bureaucracy mafia means it's going to be someone who was involved, or at least around at the time.
That excludes a fair amount of people.....
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So, speculation time about The Mirror (assuming it exists and isn't some sort of fabrication).
BH, VE, layabout and sandroba are the only players from Bureaucracy mafia in this game. WIFOM aside (I really don't think the reference to that specific mafia game was done as a fake crumb) this also includes the possibility of one of the smurfs being players in that game and being The Mirror.
The above is probably a harder assumption to make, but I'm at least certain that none of the newer players here would have gone back to research old games they didn't even know about just to throw in that one reference.
Now I'm also wondering about what he was referring to regarding that 'immortality' shit. Is it possible for there to be a role that enhances other roles?
/speculation
Hey VE, are you going to comment on this pot of shit you've just stirred up? What is going through our head right now?
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On March 21 2013 01:48 zarepath wrote:
Do any vets have any idea what the other references were?
I honestly only considered the Bureaucracy mafia a reference to TL mafia games; the others are references to famous moles/traitors in movies.
Have those specific names been used in other games of TL Mafia? If so then I'm 100% sure it must be a veteran mafia player of significant tenure here. If not (which is what I assume) I'm betting on one of the smurfs.
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Yeah I don't get it.
Is that just him giving up? This really sucks especially if VE was town; we're going to be looking at 13-14/5/? D3
Unvote: Mr. Wiggles
Vote: VisceraEyes
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On March 21 2013 01:56 Mocsta wrote:
With the information standing.. this is fuckn suspicious, and whose pushing the VE vote. its ACE
Why cant he be the mirror?
Seriously.. why the fuck would VE out himself like this...
I dont see what layabout posted has anythign to do with it.. OK hes a compulsive claimer..perhaps.. surely thats only as blue roles.. not a claimer as scum/3rd party.. The whole situation doesnt make sense.
You're right, it doesn't, but until given more information what else can we go on? We can't risk an outed 3rd party with possible empowered role escaping unpunished.
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On March 21 2013 01:57 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:56 Mocsta wrote:
With the information standing.. this is fuckn suspicious, and whose pushing the VE vote. its ACE
Why cant he be the mirror?
Seriously.. why the fuck would VE out himself like this...
I dont see what layabout posted has anythign to do with it.. OK hes a compulsive claimer..perhaps.. surely thats only as blue roles.. not a claimer as scum/3rd party.. The whole situation doesnt make sense. Ok dude Mocsta you say "this situation is confusing" but really is there ANY explanation for this situation, no matter how confused you are, where VE ISN'T third-party who we need to lynch?
I thought of something, which might fit to the suspicion of no timestamps.
What if for whatever reason VE has to get lynched as 3rd party to accomplish something for his new team? It's not enough to make me unvote him, but I'll ask the rest of you; is that kind of a situation possible?
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On March 21 2013 02:09 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:03 zarepath wrote:On March 21 2013 01:58 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 21 2013 01:56 Mocsta wrote:
With the information standing.. this is fuckn suspicious, and whose pushing the VE vote. its ACE
Why cant he be the mirror?
Seriously.. why the fuck would VE out himself like this...
I dont see what layabout posted has anythign to do with it.. OK hes a compulsive claimer..perhaps.. surely thats only as blue roles.. not a claimer as scum/3rd party.. The whole situation doesnt make sense. You're right, it doesn't, but until given more information what else can we go on? We can't risk an outed 3rd party with possible empowered role escaping unpunished. We totally, absolutely can. There's no evidence of any 3rd party kill power yet, so it's not like we lose much yet, and we have scum to still find. If we lynch 3rd party today and scum uses 2 KP tonight, we're kind of in a precarious situation with only one serious lynch of information to go off of, and that was the crazy Day 1 mislynch. I think we're far better off looking for scum for the rest of the day than we are instantly agreeing that we shoudl lynch VE. It is super easy for scum to agree to this and look pro-town. The need to look for scum doesn't change the fact that we should lynch VE. What do you make of these 3? TestSubject893 glurio TranceStorm
Trance is yet another player who just jumped on board the Wavetrain albeit with a little more effort than some of the others.
On March 20 2013 16:56 TranceStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 16:37 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 20 2013 16:34 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 15:46 geript wrote:On March 20 2013 15:18 Mocsta wrote:On March 20 2013 15:06 geript wrote:
Moc could you explain that logic more clearly. I'm not understanding that post at all. I can, if you let me know what you're struggling to follow. Surely its not the "whole thing" Here's what I mean: your problem with WoS as you summarize it is that in non-newb (non-first game) games he has more balls. You confront him on it. He turns on the 'balls factor.' You unvote based on said 'having balls' town read. Then you excuse the kita case essentially based on experienced player reading an experienced player when you say WoS isn't experienced and thus the whole case is invalid. There's nothing damning there and I can follow that at least. That said, I can't help but feel that this whole exchange is fishy because it comes off as you telling him how to act, then he acts that way, then you dismiss your vote and the case with a wave of the hand. (Pun intended). I categorize this as "Moc-type logic" but it still feels artificial to me. The last part is my real issue: For me, the case is upheld *ONLY IF* WoS hasnt pushed a lynch agenda during Day1. Thats when a sheep vote to me is scummy. From the quick filter browse i did, it looked like he satisfied the above, thus, making the case invalid to me. You say the case is upheld only if WoS doesn't push a lynch agenda D1. Honestly, I didn't remember a lynch agenda from him D1 and the only points re:lynch are a +1 on DP and a preference on GM over Zare. He even noted his meta reads are crap; I think he also called my meta reads as crap (based on previous games where Zare had at least softclaimed town early). However, I don't remember him commenting on DYH's meta read at all. I don't see a real case push from WoS D1 which makes the case still stand then right? Wow Geript.. I wrote this whole post and said fuck it. im not gonna be lazy, I will read 6 pages of WoS. It changed everything. You are right. Kita case still stands.I was wrong. this fucker did not do anything until the Kita case (which is the only stuff I read when WoS asked me to look @ his filter my derp) I was under the impression he had pushed Mr.Wiggles all of Day 1.. obviously wrong. I dindt realise the majority of his filter came from late Night1/early Day 2. And also that the majority of his filter is just talking shit. There is not a clear agenda. I need to read WoS defense of Kita case one more time, because I wasnt satisfied the first time around; but was giving undue credit for pushing a case Day1. For your reference, the below is the post i was about to make before reading WoS filter. + Show Spoiler +
(1) "Balls"
Now for what you raised:
I didnt unvote WoS because he turned the balls factor on... that would be invalid (cos i gave him a way out)..
The way it went down: I skipped to the most recent page, saw that limp post of him and was like WTF, WoS doesnt play like that and made my meta validation vote post. It was that simple. I think its pretty obvious when i voted him, it was with intention to lynch.
He then identified to me, that he had "balls" before the meta case. As such, the meta case post in my opinion became his saving grace.
(2) Why lynch push is important
I know you love poker. so let me me analogous to that.
Pros expect a certain level of play, and can actually struggle against newbies, because they dont understand/conform to the "rules' of the game and make unpredicatable/stupid plays.
I believe that was the basis of kitaman case on WoS. Those tells on someone like DP would indeed be the nail in the coffin. Unfortunately I dont find them as strong on newbies, because typically they are not as aware of what constitutes good play; or the ramifications of their own play.
Hence why I said, Kita case points are indeed valid scum tells; but to me only point to a scum WoS if he hasnt pushed a lynch candidate hard. (That would be the turning point for me to consider the tells as scum, and not newbie town being unaware/stupid).
(3) Is the case invalid - i.e. did WoS push anyone hard
I need to do a proper read of his filter, instead of just a couple pages.
Based on Day2 play, I thought he pushed ppl; hence my retraction of vote.
Based on Day1 play, I havent read it (yet.. planning to tonight)
If WoS indeed only discussed "Im not familiar to know these meta reads" and didnt push a lynch vote, then I would give serious consideration to Kita case, and most likely lead to a vote on WoS.
Unfortunately, I am making a leap of faith currently that the targets WoS pushed today (i.e. Mr.Wiggles etc) are the same ppl from Day1. If that is the situation at hand, then I think Kita case is invalid in full.
err no he didn't push any agenda D1. I was going to point this out too: In fact as of N1 Wiggles was one of his "strongest town reads". By early D2, Wiggles was the scummiest person in the thread to WoS. The conversion does not look convincing to me. Look into this as well as my post above and tell me what you think. Good spot, its an astonishing 180 degree turnaround. Moreover, in the posts you quoted earlier, he acts in a very arrogant manner as if to suggest the town is playing poorly; now he wants us to believe that he has been playing a poor townie all along. I can't buy the emotional appeals he's making. I think that you are making a little too much of the cosmicomics connection at the moment though. That can be looked into if WoS does indeed flip red. Mind you, if WoS is scum, then my suspicions against TPS are probably completely wrong.
And now he's wrong about both me AND TPS!
I still think glurio is town based on gameplay alone, though if you consider the fact that he's barely been to the thread at all, that's scummy glurio. I'll be able to tell his alignment for sure if he comes back and contributes a little. If he doesn't at all, he's scum.
TestSubject I got nothing. I have to go look.
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Oh Wiggles is scum for sure, and I was voting him before this stupid VE shit popped up.
Vig that guy.
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This game is extremely difficult when half the thread doesn't participate.
Everyone zare listed has a 1-2 page filter and we're almost at the end of D2.
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And people thought I was playing against win-con.
Like wtf.
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On March 21 2013 02:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
Because it makes sense to accept to become a part of this third party entity and then bring it to the thread. LOL
##Unvote
##Vote: VisceraEyes
Thanks guys - I was worried that reading and thinking about this game while at work tonight was gonna get me fired. Now I don't have to! ^^
GL town.
Ok, VE, you're right, it doesn't make sense.
Maybe if you fucking explained yourself instead of giving up entirely.
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I....VE are you really not understanding what you did?
Your reads don't matter anymore at all if you're 3rd party now because you're not playing to win with the town anymore. We can use them to try on logic through some stuff I guess, but we don't know what you motivation is for joining 3rd party so how can we trust your reads you made before this point?
We need a proper explanation from you regarding the 'Mirror' QT.
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EPT
