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On March 27 2013 13:03 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:36 cosmicomics wrote:
Ok so all creepyness aside, I'm the Mirror and layabout is my star crossed lover. I'm almost positive that he is town. I picked him because he seemed like he was a low focus player who can survive mislynches / shots till LYLO with me. That's my, and now layabout's wincon. We just have to make it till LYLO. If one of us dies, the other dies too. We get a 1KP bullet proof vest a night, but I have to choose whether it is on me or layabout, and once it absorbs a hit it's gone. We still have it. cosmic clearly doesn't win by surviving with town. This is all nonsense. Remember on day two how he manipulated VE into thinking he was being recruited? And then he proceed to push for his lynch? He made no effort in clearing the suspicions that VE was third party. He pushed a mislynch for the "lulz". This isn't play indicative of a player that wins with town. A survivor with a bulletproof vest uses his mason ability to scum hunt and then use the town cred to never be lynched. They don't push mislynches for their own amusement. I tried to chat with him 1:1 in real time to get a read on him, but he dodged me at everyone opportunity. He claims to have been trying to figure out my alignment, yet every opportunity I requested to chat, he brushed off.After writing a case against me which proved how sure he was that I am scum, now that people agree I am town, he backtracks and jumps on another player with DarthPunk. He claims to have reread the thread to discover that I was mafia earlier, now he admits he hasn't been reading the thread very closely at all. cosmic and layabout were almost certainly going to be lynched the next two cycles. I pegged them as scum, they couldn't misdirect the lynch and this is their last ditch effort to swing things. Notice how they waited until only a few hours left in the cycle to pull this stunt. They're hoping that we buy into their story and do a last minute panic switch without thinking things through. It's also possible that this ploy would allow their kp to remain at two for another night.cosmic needs to be lynched this cycle.
On March 27 2013 13:16 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 13:12 DarthPunk wrote:On March 27 2013 13:09 kitaman27 wrote:
dp, your number one mafia read in layabout suddenly comes up with a fake claim, wants to lynch you, and you buy into it? Why would you believe a word they say if you thought he was scum prior to the claim? Because there is absolutely ZERO reason for scum to fake claim right now. They are clearly winning. So why just throw away two scum members for no reason? It makes no sense at all for mafia to fake claim. It makes perfect sense for 3rd party to help town right now because we are in an awful position. That is why I believe the claim. No one should not believe the claim. Yourself and Ryo are basically claiming scum right now. ##Vote: Kitaman27 Are you kidding me? There were 5 votes on cosmic and 3 votes on layabout before this claim. One of them was most certainly going to get lynched this cycle. There is only a couple hours in the cycle remaining. Do you expect that we were going to suddenly decide to all swap to WoS or something? They have every reason to fake claim for survival right now.
The moment cosmic flipped scum, everyone was going to lynch layabout the next cycle. This is their only chance.You say that cosmic wants to work with town, but ignore the fact that he trolled VE and tried to push his mislynch?
Bold is kitaman trying to lynch me for being 3rd party. Red is kitaman trying to lynch me for being scum.
Nowhere does kitaman actually try to evaluate what I actually am or the repercussions that lynching me will bring.
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An argument that someone is scum is something like this:
"He is scum these actions show scum agenda he is scum"
Implicit in what kitaman said in the bold is
"He might be 3rd party but definitely isn't town-aligned 3rd party".
Explicit in what kitman said in the bold is stuff about survivors. You don't hash out explanations to rule out the possibility of town aligned 3rd party when arguing that someone is scum.
Clearly kitaman is panicking and trying to do his best to get me lynched instead of acting like everyone else, who is taking a step back and carefully re-evaluating.
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On March 30 2013 18:02 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 18:00 Ace wrote:
I was asleep. But seriously I didn't even have a ton of time and I thought I made well reasoned posts, trying to keep everyone focused on 1 thing at a time. Somehow I got blamed for "telling everyone to stop scumhunting" and got lynched.
Sigh v_v that's why I smurfed (not enough time to keep up my posting standard). if I was on my normal acc I would've definitely played a different game. Well, if I was forced to not smurf I probably wouldn't have played, but w/e. + Show Spoiler +also note that I mean I felt like I could've posted satisfactorily, but it would have been less than normal, i.e. I would take a lot of flak from people for not posting enough to my meta
Same exact reason I smurfed. Like, I want to play mafia, but I'll have an incredibly tough time playing since I don't have the same type of time available.
Can someone explain the layabout's mirror restriction? I assumed if I ever recruited mafia, their win con would change and they would just work to bus all the members, as it is the fastest, easiest way to victory. Layabout, what did your conversion PM say?
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Also, sorry layabout for the conversion. I was very confused for a long time how exactly my role actually worked (time required to convert etc.) and my desire was to leave a will that outlined my game plan. Too bad I thought you would be converted day 3 and not somewhere into day 2.
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On March 31 2013 09:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 09:13 cosmicomics wrote:On March 30 2013 18:02 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 30 2013 18:00 Ace wrote:
I was asleep. But seriously I didn't even have a ton of time and I thought I made well reasoned posts, trying to keep everyone focused on 1 thing at a time. Somehow I got blamed for "telling everyone to stop scumhunting" and got lynched.
Sigh v_v that's why I smurfed (not enough time to keep up my posting standard). if I was on my normal acc I would've definitely played a different game. Well, if I was forced to not smurf I probably wouldn't have played, but w/e. + Show Spoiler +also note that I mean I felt like I could've posted satisfactorily, but it would have been less than normal, i.e. I would take a lot of flak from people for not posting enough to my meta Same exact reason I smurfed. Like, I want to play mafia, but I'll have an incredibly tough time playing since I don't have the same type of time available.
Can someone explain the layabout's mirror restriction? I assumed if I ever recruited mafia, their win con would change and they would just work to bus all the members, as it is the fastest, easiest way to victory. Layabout, what did your conversion PM say? From what I can tell Layabout became completely 3p-aligned. He just got totally suckered when Kita lied and said he too was converted.
Why didn't he just proceed to bus every member and be heralded as best town player of all time?
e: as soon as day 2?
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Also a big thank you to DoctorHelvetica and Oatsmaster for hosting this game. Loved the flavor.
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I think ... a lot of the differing opinion is because we all have different understandings of what the Mirror role actually was.
Here is what it actually was: a 3rd party that could recruit people by masoning them for a certain period of time (I think it is 1 full cycle, or 1 day + 1 night), either in name or anonymously. The masonee are told that they may look away from the Mirror at any time. 2 recruit maximum.
From a town perspective, if you think that the recruiter could not be rejected, then yes lynching cosmic as soon as you found out was the correct decision. The true win condition is hidden. You take out the 3rd party regardless of what he says.
But the question would then become why did VE out the 3rd party as 3rd party? What motivation is there? I don't understand what happened with that. Doesn't make sense. If you think VE would play strange enough to do that, I guess lynching him makes sense.
VE said he could reject the offer. So if you believe that, then 3rd party is totally benign to both parties (never saw any KP that indicated anything). At the endgame juncture, if 3rd party is offering to help, then I don't see why town shouldn't go after someone else.
Scum have KP. Fact. 3rd party may or may not have KP.
Town needs to eliminate scum to win. Fact. Town may need to eliminate 3rd party.
Scum KP reduces with numbers. Maybe.
Seems like you should go after scum.
However, given that town was so lost almost the whole game, wouldn't have mattered if the host announced my role in detail. I wrote my kita case long before claiming, but didn't have any clout to push it (plus I don't get teammates to back me up  ). No scum member was close to being caught and any actual efforts were totally shut down by scum. Good job by them. Doesn't matter if I (and by extension town players) can figure out who scum is if I can't get them lynched / killed. Mafia is a collective game and town need to work on 1) getting the right reads & 2) getting the right reads lynched / killed.
In closing, I don't think this game is [N], but I don't know much about the recruiter role so I can't really say much. I didn't bother trying to mason anyone 3rd cycle because I planned on laying low until endgame. Probably would have worked much better if scum didn't make it their specific goal to get me lynched.
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Oh yea, given a closed setup, my role / existence in the game really favored scum agenda more than towns. Probably explains what I perceive as a strong town blue line up (vet, 2 vigs, 1 mason vig, 1 DT).
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As for what thePeaShooter says, I really empathize with that.
I'm not saying that posting often and spamming away posts is an illegitimate strategy, but I share that desire to play a game with less clutter and spam and more focus on the deception / misinterpretations / lying etc.
I was mulling over in my head maybe a special setup that either restricted number of posts or allowed town to punish it or something ... especially for me who smurfed into the game to avoid potential meta abuse, would still like to play mafia but find 3~4 hours per day a bit of a tall order, as so much of it is invested in just catching up in thread (not analyzing, just reading).
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On March 31 2013 12:31 ThePeashooter wrote:
CC just needed to survive and his win was not mutually exclusive and could be achieved alongside the town/mafia. Furthermore, since LayAbout could be recruited and then turned back into scum if CC died he has incentive to not work to his "new" win condition. His win condition wasn't permanent and if scum was winning he just needed to kill CC and he would go back to his winning team. I would say he didn't have so much a new win condition as he did a temporary change in condition that gave him the option to switch if he wanted to.
Yea that threw me off. I assumed his win con was fixed and that he would play to it, and that he was also under the impression that if I died then he too would die. Therefore he would even be willing to die (and get mislynched) before me if needed to.
However I don't know what he was told, you would have to ask him.
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On March 31 2013 12:37 Blazinghand wrote:
I remember there was once an 80-person game (that I was only in briefly before it fell apart) and there were several roles called "lurker vigis" which could fire a bullet to shoot a lurker. It worked pretty poorly, but it was a fine idea.
I don't think posting restrictions are the best of ideas, just because it changes the way the game works. That being said, I think the real way to stop spam is the same as the real way to stop lurking: consider it a scumtell and lynch people who do it. Obviously it's not possible for a single person to enforce this, but if enough people believe it, it will become true. And FWIW a certain level of spam probably IS a scumtell. It is anti-town to get into long arguments with everyone for no reason and derail all the useful lynches. Calling players out for this and threatening to lynch them will 1) discourage scum from doing it and 2) discourage town from doing it which could be good.
That is very difficult, as some players just have a natural tendency to post often. E.g. marv posted many one liners as town as FiveTouch if I recall. I didn't read the game that closely but I assume he played a large part in the rompstomp. Something like posting often ... isn't objectively policy enforceable. You would need to force many players to change up their playstyle.
I might try to make an invite normal mini with more consolidate-y post type players to see how that goes first. That way, people can still play normally within regular mafia rules, and we can see the type of gameplay that results.
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On March 31 2013 12:38 ThePeashooter wrote:
Cosmic, did you ever know the whole scum team? Like could LayAbout tell you who his whole scum team was?
The mason link was severed after his conversion. I didn't expect him to be converted so early either, and was hoping to write some sort of will to dictate how he should play. That said I think I chalked up his general waffling as a town who was unsure of how to play to his new win con. I don't think he posted anything useful in thread ... yea ...
I figured out kita just by post analysis. I felt his cases were pretty weak and his glurio read awful. I was looking into Ryu because Keir (1st NK) pointed out something about him. When someone like Keir dies instead of Wiggles / Ace / whatever "vet", I'm inclined to look carefully (not to say Keir is a poor player, I just assume vets get shot first unless there is good reason). The post greymist flip blame really stuck out. Doesn't matter if objectively it was true, the attitude was all wrong.
Was looking at Kenpachi and DarthPunk due to process of elimination (town reads). When DP realized that kita and Ryu were scum, I began to consider layabout, but I died soon after so I stopped following the game.
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Not to be pessimistic or anything, but it's pretty hard to define lurker / spammer no?
I think kitaman was very lurky early game, despite having "good looking posts". I think there are players (I try to emulate this guy) who can produce really good content, but have lower post counts. On the flip side, there are strong town players who are lurky (Foolishness) and "spammy" (marvellosity).
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On March 31 2013 13:08 RyuSuzaku wrote:
the policy vig idea is pretty stupid, just give players a regular vig.
It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time.
Eh, depends on do you want to win the game vs. do you want to improve overall play of TL Mafia (and have less chance winning that specific game)? Because I'd probably keep the vig for a strong scum read (for the sake of winning), rather than shooting into lurkers / players with playstyles I don't like.
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EPT
